#660 Defining Diabetes: Black Holes

Scott and Jenny Smith define diabetes terms

Scott and Jenny Smith define diabetes terms In this Defining Diabetes episode, Scott and Jenny explain Black Holes.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 660 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Over the years on the podcast, I've come up with terms that, you know, don't exist in diabetes management. One thing I can think of off the top my head is trust that what you know will happen will happen. It's to me it's a diabetes truism. It's a tool. And some of these terms give you another way to think about an idea. Once in a while on the defining diabetes series, we get off of words that you're like Bolus, I know Bolus, that's a medical word. And we do one like today. Today's term that Jenny and I will help define is black hole. Don't worry, it's all going to make sense soon. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, and are a US resident, or are the caregiver of a type one, and R US resident, please head over to t one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. Take the survey, you'll be helping people with type one diabetes, and supporting the show.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med. US med is the online diabetes supplier that you've been looking for. They have a dedicated 800 number for Juicebox Podcast listeners. And you can call today to get your free benefits check 888721151 For or go to us med.com forward slash juicebox us med wants to bring you better service and better care than you're accustomed to. For today, I think I'd like to do a couple of like my terms, like dictate the pace and black hole, I want to start there. And then maybe we have time, we can definitely

Jennifer Smith, CDE 2:12
your terms. They're not the I don't use but actually my boys talk about black hole, but they're very much referring to black holes in the outer space.

Scott Benner 2:23
Well, so I mean, it's at this point, it's been a number of years. And so I don't even know if you remember the first time I said it. I kind of remember the first time I thought it and it blew my mind a little bit when I realized that a Temp Basal off was creating a void in the future. Right. And that good term for it? Yeah, right, like so. So I guess I guess we're talking, we'll just keep going. The way I see it, and I'm sure the way you see it, too, is that if you're using insulin, if you have diabetes, your blood sugar, as soon as you introduce any carbs, or you know, body functions that push up blood sugar, your blood sugar starts to go up, and it wants to continue going up. It is only stopped by the introduction of manmade insulin. And in my mind, that's a I know, people have probably heard me talk about all kinds of different ways. But you know, you could think of it as the the offensive and defensive line meeting in a football game, you could think of it is, you know, what is that called mimes when they pretend they're up against the wall. They put their hands up right being inside of like the box, yes, I just think of it as equal force from both sides. So the blood sugar is trying to come up. And you need to meet it with enough force to stop it from coming up. But to stop it and hold it at a level that you desire. So some people that might be 80. And for some people that might be 120, doesn't matter. But we've talked about it over and over again, that basil when set very properly. Hold your Joe at that spot, wherever it is, you know. And so I know this, these things might seem disconnected for a minute, but I think they'll it'll come together in a second as we're talking. But I think of that as okay, I know that it exists. If I have that, right. That's one thing I can count on. And then I start thinking about the timing of insulin. And you know, you said all the time as anybody who's paying attention, right, you get a Pre-Bolus your meal because insulin doesn't start working right away. Right? And then you're always very quick to like come by, if I say something about that and say Don't forget basil takes time to start working too. Yeah, right. So if you're on a pump, and you just shut your basil off at noon, you're not going to see the impacts of that at noon. So you could do that right now. You could be super steady or whatever your number is. Shut your basil off and your blood sugar is not going to immediately start going up because beta has been going in slowly over the time. And it takes time for it to begin working. So if your pump is giving you Basal insulin, I mean, how does it break down? And in some pumps, how frequently do you get it in an Omnipod, for example

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:15
Omnipod, you get a pulse? Well, it depends on what the Basal rate is at, right? Each pulse from a pod is delivered as a point 05 pulse of, of insulin. So depending on what your Basal may be, if it's only point one per hour, you're only getting 2.05 boluses, essentially, pulses over an hour's time. The higher the Basal rate, the higher the pulses so incrementally that adjusts over the course of an hour. Based on how many pulses you should get to add up to your Basal in an hour.

Scott Benner 5:51
So if your Basal is a unit an hour, you're going to get 20 pulses an hour of the point oh five,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:58
and divide that into an hour, which is 60 minutes, it could give you exactly how many minutes between pulses. Exactly.

Scott Benner 6:04
Okay. So that, that that the rest of that math, I don't care about the idea that it's going to happen. It's going to wait, it's going to happen. It's going to wait, it's gonna happen. Each one of those little pulses, lives in its own timeline inside of your body. Yes, yes. Ah,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 6:20
absolutely. It's like starting a new if you imagine the timeline, that's a really good example. You know, I mean, even grade schoolers, like my child who's in third grade already knows a timeline or a line of, you know, something in math to break it down. Yeah. So if you say, Okay, over this timeline, I'm getting a dose here, I'm getting a dose here, I'm getting a dose here. And then each of those has its own. If you imagine like a bell curve of action, right, got its own timeframe of start and finish each pulse does.

Scott Benner 6:52
Yep. So if you've been on a Basal drip for hour, I mean, you don't have to be on it for about an hour for them all to be active. And then you shut it off, it would take I know this is audio, but the first point oh, five at the top of the hour, lives its life goes through its bell curve and in dissipates. The one that happens after that starts a little later than that ends a little later than that. But if you just shut your Basal off, eventually, all of those little pulses would live their lives and be gone endpoint and have an endpoint. And when that happens, then there's a void. There is a black hole where there is no longer any gravity pulling down on your blood sugar or pushing down on your blood sugar. I know the gravity doesn't exactly work like that. But it's not the point in my head. It does Jenny. So when I'm thinking about insulin, this is how it works. So, you know, that's where you, you know, you can you hear me say, Well, if you're low now, but not too low, what if you shut your Basal off for half an hour, maybe an hour from now that 70 That's been holding, but not going down might drift up to I don't know a little bit more, right. And you put the Basal back on and you kind of catch it. It's, um, I'm Hope I'm being clear, because in my mind, it's crystal clear.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 8:15
It's, well, you're bringing up a really good point, because I think as people get more, they want to become more aggressive, not an I use aggressive, not as a bad word, but they want to get things in target more often. Right? So we learn how to manipulate and micromanage with insulin. But the biggest piece that you do have to remember is that the timeline of insulin isn't rapid. Rapid is I think one of the sets a horrible name for our insulin today, it certainly works a lot faster than ages ago, thankfully, but it is not a stop it now, it has a now effect on what could happen. Right? You have to remove it with enough time to build up in circulation more or in circulation less to impact the time in the future that you want more or less. So if you are low right now. Do not suspend your insulin.

Scott Benner 9:23
It's not gonna help you need sugar. It's not gonna work fast enough to stop a like a falling blood sugar. Right? My and I appreciate you pointing that out. Because my my thought there was if you're 70 and your hours beyond your meal, insulin, and you know you're not getting any lower, but you really wish you were at five and you don't want to take in carbs. Taking your basil away for 30 minutes. Could be enough. Yeah, but it's not going to also happen in that moment. Like you can't shut the basil off at noon and expect the 70 to turn into 85 you might see a slow drift up over the next hour. Right That's my guess. So right over an hour, and you also those of you who hear this and are like, I'm going to try this one day. Also remember, you can't be shutting your basil off forever. Like if you have to shut your basil off for three hours, you have bigger problems, then a small little nudge might help. And and you want to fix that problem. You also don't want to be without insulin for that long, just No, not a good plan.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 10:24
We usually say no, no suspends, or no disconnections from insulin for or Basal insulin right. Even if you're on injections, and you haven't taken Bolus is all day but you did take your Basal you're not without insulin. So that's a different scenario, right? But completely disconnected from all insulin. We don't want it longer than two hours,

Scott Benner 10:44
right, basically. And that would be in a situation where you're talking about, you know, you have too much to begin with. So you're trying to kind of horse trade, which I'll talk about in a half a second. As soon as I answer Arden's tax play, this hasn't happened on the podcast in a while, because the COVID, where I talked about Hardin, about her food. So Arden is in a situation now where she is in a Chinese restaurant. And she says she is having sesame chicken and white rice. But Arden is also on a steroid pack right now. So we stuff we have her insulin jacked up to work on this. The problem is, is that we're using the algorithms the algorithm is set at a 200% increase right now all the powers jacked up to 200% of its settings. So if she puts in the right carbs for this, it's going to double her meal insulin and probably I'm guessing killer in about a half an hour. So we're gonna,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 11:42
we're gonna, probably not she'd she'd do something, she would do something about

Scott Benner 11:45
it, but it would try to get her. So I'm gonna tell. So what I'm basically doing is I'm telling her to take, I'm telling her to tell it half the carbs of what I think it is. Because it's going to double it. So I think that will make a Bolus that is so

Jennifer Smith, CDE 12:00
you really only need with the steroids. You only really need more basil. It doesn't sound like Bolus does need to be what's increased. It's more just a Basal level, she definitely needs a heck of a lot more.

Scott Benner 12:10
Absolutely crazy. She's on the steroid pack. Her Basal is basically at four units an hour for the last couple of days up from 1.1. But no change in her meal ratio was necessary at all. Wow. So I mean, I don't know. Like, I'm just going with what works at this point, you know, right. So hold on one second. So I've told her that get her back to this. Okay. All right. Now I got to try to find I'm getting too old to skip around in thoughts, Jenny, hold on a second. What the hell were we saying before before she texted

Jennifer Smith, CDE 12:43
talking about insulin, and it's action time.

Scott Benner 12:48
Yeah, don't turn it off. Because we were talking

Jennifer Smith, CDE 12:51
about the timeframe to not turn it off for which was about like, no more than two hours is typically what we

Scott Benner 12:57
write. And I was gonna bring up that if you're using an omni pod specifically, it's always Temp Basal decrease, because you can set an end time to those and it kind of turns back on turns back on. Whereas if you suspend the insulin and you do not remember to turn it back on, your insulin is not coming back on. But my bigger point here was going to be that if you think about, if you think about this, the way we're talking about it, you can flip it around and think about the other way. So I'm just going to kind of go through it again. If you shut your insulin off your Basal insulin off on your pump at noon, and you leave it off for an hour, sometime about an hour or a second, she's saying 19 year, let's just dial that back a little bit.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 13:44
I'm always, I'm always interested in I have a lot a lot. I have a lot of teens that I work with as well. And I am always amazed at the amount of insulin that they take for meal pie. Like I oh my gosh, that's like 80 to 90% of my total daily insulin. Right there in a meal. Oh my goodness,

Scott Benner 14:09
she's about to have white rice and sesame chicken in a in a Chinese restaurant. So I told her to make it 16 I gotta be honest with you. I don't know what's too much. Maybe I don't know what's about to happen. But we'll see. And she's got my car. So not only am I worried about her personal safety, but I'm worried about my card. So so we're trying to be

Jennifer Smith, CDE 14:33
very clear. Text me when you leave the restaurant. Yeah. Oh, gosh.

Scott Benner 14:36
Okay, so anyway, so turn it off at noon. It creates, you know, it takes a while for all those timelines of those little pulses to finish up. And now at some point in the future, probably around an hour, you're gonna start seeing a drift up. That's a that's a ninja level move. But what you're really doing is you're manipulating the insulin to be where you Wanted end to end and, and sometimes to not be where you don't want it. So if you so you probably people have probably heard me talk about even using Temp Basal increases during carby your meals and and that's a good way to like up your basil so that an hour from now you have more resistance, you could do that to meet a fat rise from French fries, you know, you could do that I see Arden's fat rise from fries, and a burger hits her in about 90 minutes after she starts eating. So there's a world where 30 minutes after she starts eating, I can jack or basil up to try to get ahead of the fat rise. Just as simply you can also kind of just, you could you could flip it around and do it the other way, right? Like you could take it away to create a void to create a black hole. You could also add it to give yourself a I don't know, I don't know enough about space. What's something that sucks you when it gets really powerful? I have no idea. But but you can change the power in the future by making decisions. Now, super important to say that I think everything you do right now with insulin is always for later whether it's a decrease an increase a regular Bolus, no matter what you do, it's for later, right.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 16:21
Absolutely. And that's I talked about that a lot with people in terms of adjustment. They might say, well, everything is lovely after midnight, in terms of like basil alone, right? Everything is lovely, as long as I land at midnight where I want to. But last night, you know I or and or I've been floating around at 170 overnight, but it's really nice and stable. Well, good. It's stable, because your basil isn't wrong in this time period. Right? Where it's wrong is in the hours before this, which is impacting this time. And this basil is holding it where whatever happened before. left off. Yeah, so let's address this time period. Right. But the same thing for exercise. Again, I work with a lot of people around exercise and how to manage and manipulate and it's don't adjust right now as you're going to set foot on the football field.

Scott Benner 17:15
Right? Yeah, well, and the other ways to think about it, because really, this is just about striking someone in their mind in a way to think about it. You, you can create stability over 24 hours, by having all of these decisions, right? And people are like, Oh, that's too much to do. But it's not really you're talking about having your basil set well, understanding, you know, if there are certain times of day where your basil needs to be stronger or weaker, knowing when that is starting that Basal program prior to when that happens. But I'll try to make sense of it a different way. If you're on a football team. And you're on the offensive line, you have five guys on your offensive line, but I rush six, someone's not getting blocked, right, and you're getting sacked. So the way to think about that is if you have, I don't know 20 carbs of insulin in your meal. But you somehow Bolus for 30, you've sent more rushers than you have blockers, correct, right. The other way to think of it is if you bring in a tight end block, and that guy's only rushing for, there's no way he's probably getting to you because now you're you got six guys blocking four guys, it's all about putting the right amount of resistance on the other side of the attack. And in truth, both sides are attacking, right, the insulin is trying to pull that, that sugar out of your blood. And the carbs or your body function is trying really hard to push your blood sugar up. So this is usually the time excuse me, when I'm on stage and talking about this, I tell people just to take their hands, put them out flat, put your palms together and push together. And you just need to push so that your left hand can overpower your right hand and your right hand can overpower your left hand. And when you do that, you have stability. You take those palms that are probably in the prayer position right now and you turn them sideways. And that's a flatline. So the thing pushing from the top can't overwhelm the thing pushing from the bottom to thing pushing from the bottom can't overwhelm the thing pushing from the top and your insulin. And your insulin need is now in this just fight that neither of them can win. And that's what that's what a flatline on a graph is it's just, it's the need of insulin, those carbs, and the resistance of that insulin, that insulin, both dialed in, in a way where neither of them can win the fight. And if you have too much insulin, you're going to get low. And if you have too many carbs, you're gonna get high and honestly I don't think there's too many carbs I think of it is not nothing solid. Right? And

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:51
that's a good point to make because quite honestly, we were too carb centric. And if you really understand food in general Yes, we're taking insulin to work with carbohydrate. Otherwise it wouldn't be called an insulin to carb ratio, right? But anytime there is more food there, and more food usually means more of those other macronutrients to things like proteins and fats. And so learning, learning by watching your trends around things can teach you how to create enough for later, when those other things may be impacting. And you want to keep control.

Scott Benner 20:32
Yeah, you have to meet the need, like I've, I think, throughout the years of making the podcast, I'm most happy with that statement meet the need. Because the need may be lower, at times, it may be higher at times. But if you don't meet it with the right amount of insulin, you're gonna lose one way or the other higher? Well, it's just but somehow in my mind tying together, the idea of the timing of the insulin, and how to how you can make it not exist in the future, gives you the power to make it exist, excuse me, gives you the power to make it exist even more in the future, if you want it to correct. But what ends up happening to most people, is they don't get themselves into this mindset, that everything I'm doing now with insulin is actually happening later. And then they're always I don't know, it's like, you're, it's like you're chasing the flash through time. And you're always ending here always ending up where he was 15 minutes ago trying to fix the problem. Right? Right, you need to be ahead of it. And, and I think that, to be honest, that's gonna transition really well into the next defining episode. So I want to make sure that you don't have anything else you'd like to add to this. I know, this is not like a standard diabetes term, or idea. It's just an idea that makes my mind right about using insulin?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 21:52
Well, I think it's a good point to bring up especially considering the way that people have started to learn more about manipulating their use of insulin. And in terms of what we now have access to technology wise, many of you know the algorithm driven systems utilize this, this watch, right, this predictive nature. And so that also works with how insulin is going to be put into the picture now based on what it's predicting to happen. Coming into the next hour, two hours into the future. Yeah. So it's, it's definitely something to, to know. And understand.

Scott Benner 22:38
See, I love you, because I didn't know what you were about to say. And then what I had planned to say was, I've learned so much about this watching, Arden's algorithm work. Yes. Right. And so yes, you and I are just people and the people listening are just people, our computing powers, not quite as high as a, as an algorithm and algorithm, right. So I'm not, I'm not asking you in your mind to track you know, 20 different timelines of point oh, five boluses, just to understand that, that's how it happens that they kind of feather and layer on top of each other. And then in a regular situation, without algorithm, you could use that information to make some good decisions. But where I really learned to believe in it, is watching the algorithm watching it, you know, I tell the algorithm, hey, her blood sugar requires 1.1 unit events on our for for basil. And it goes, Okay, that's my starting point. But there are times when it decides what you know, it looks and it says, Well, what I think is going to happen in the future, an hour from now indicates to me that if we change her Basil 2.7, right now, we'll be able to keep stability off in the future. And you watch that algorithm, give insulin, take it away in the form of a basil over and over and over again. And even really good settings. Like even if you have rock solid settings, and your day hasn't been full of too many variables, you know, exercise or tough foods, the balls for whatever, you still see a rise and fall of basil throughout the day, because this thing's making these automated changes. And in some algorithms, also bolusing it'll make its decisions. And then it looks up and goes, Oh, this didn't work. You know, like we need we need more and it'll Bolus or Ooh, Jesus didn't work, you're going to get low, and it'll rip away your basil for long periods of time to try to stop below in the future. And it's not always successful. But it's successful so frequently. It just really made me believe that I know it's the best we can do when we're injecting to inject once your Basal insulin during the day and you get what you get you manage around it or even with a pump or you set your your Basal rate at something certain or try to make some adjustments to get ahead of problems that you see happen every day at a certain time. But it's just not it's not enough. Right? Yeah. No, it's a great start. It's an amazing tool, but it is not everything that you're going to require. And so the rest of that has to be you. And, you know, seeing these trends and being able to make adjustments to it to hopefully stay ahead of problems, so that you're not always chasing a problem. Like, if you keep showing up 15 minutes after the bank robber leaves, you're never gonna catch them, you know, you got to you got to be inside waiting for him. And anyway, in my mind, understanding how to create a black hole in the future with insulin is, is the first big step and understanding how to manipulate it in a number of different ways. So guys, this is where the episode ended. But then Jenny, and I kept talking about it, it was gonna be a private conversation, but I thought you might want to hear it. So I'm going to include it right after this word from us, but

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Wow, that's so heavy. And then Arden texted twice in between it was like it really is like a time travel movie. It's it's like, you know, you're trying to understand you're like Wait was that in the future? The past you get kind of like twisted up. It's not easy, but the people who end up understanding it really understand it.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 28:34
Right. You know, and that's the that's the that's the Kenny facts maybe not necessarily exactly that level. But that's the person who is really looking and understanding especially the algorithm driven pumps. I don't know how many people I look at their data initially on talking to them. And they're like, I don't know, I thought it was gonna be all so much better. But I still have this big standard deviation. It's all roller coaster. And I was like, Yeah, because your pump is taking away this much insulin. And then it's like jamming you full of extra insulin because it took it away. And now you're sky high riding right? And then it's got to take it away again, because now you're drifting. I'm like, we got to stop, stop the deficit.

Scott Benner 29:16
Everybody. Listen, we're still recording, I think maybe this gets to stay in. You still have to Pre-Bolus it's, you know, and I know that already. But it's interesting that people are seeing it right away and thinking, oh, gosh, the thing, the machine will just do it. Like, in your point earlier, the insulin doesn't work rapidly enough for you not to Pre-Bolus your meals, you're always going to get behind and then the thing is going to come along and try its hardest to stop it. Eventually it's going to stop because the food's gonna digest and then you're gonna get low afterwards. And you know, and then it's not much different. It's everything is I don't know it's real. vibey you just have to, you gotta find it. You know, it's like dancing. It's like Dancing with a woman. Like you just got to close your eyes and just, you know, you gotta go with it. Yeah, you sit there and try to figure it out all the time, because you just look like that weird guy in the middle of the floor trying to do the right thing. Her hips, move your hips move. Yeah, that's it, you know. So together, yeah.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 30:17
And, you know, when you said, you know, watching an algorithm work, I think that's a really good way, if you have the chance to kind of pay attention and watch, it's a really good way to see a lot of people are also, you know, I don't love my active insulin time that my algorithm is set for, I think it's way too long. We had it set for like, two or two and a half hours in our conventional pump. Well, your explanation, or you know what, we talked about all those little pulses. In algorithm driven systems, those little pulses are now seen by the algorithm as new starting places. Yeah, it's kind of a long term finish line, right? Yeah. So it needs the length, the time period to be able to predict into. So

Scott Benner 31:03
I think that's why the first day of on the pod five, they say that very first pot the first time you put it on, it's collecting data at that point. Now, it doesn't happen at the beginning of every new pod, like every time you switch it. It's the very first time you put that algorithm on it needs that first pod to figure things out. Yeah, it's all fascinating. Okay. All right, hold on. I'm all worried No, I'm warm.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 31:30
I'm glad you're warm.

Scott Benner 31:31
Cool, you're in. You're up there in Wisconsin. You're lucky you're alive. You're gonna be living inside of Han Solo is TomTom to stay alive at some point up there.

First, a huge thanks to Jenny Smith. As always, for being on the show and sharing her knowledge with us. Jenny works at Integrated diabetes comm if you want to hire her, you can also want to thank us med the newest sponsor of the Juicebox Podcast and remind you to go to us med.com Ford slash juicebox. To get your free benefits check find out if US med is right for you. Or you can call them at 888721151 for better service, better care. Get your diabetes supplies from us med

All right, I thought that was a fun episode. Let me just remind you that anything you need about the podcast can be found at Juicebox Podcast COMM The diabetes pro tips and these defining diabetes, as well as other series of the podcasts are also there. You can actually find defining diabetes, and diabetes pro tip at diabetes pro tip comm as well. Or you could just look in your podcast player and search for them. Just if you're in this podcast player, please follow or subscribe to the show. It's really good for the show and and that way you'll get the newest episodes as they come out. Plus, it makes me feel nice and I mean if you're trying to do something simple and nice for me, subscribing in a podcast player would be pretty cool. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

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#659 Burnout

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades. She and Scott discuss burnout.

You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - iHeart Radio -  Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 659 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Everybody, Erica Forsythe is back. Erica, of course is the licensed marriage and family therapist who's been on the show a whole bunch of times in a ton of different episodes. She also has had type one diabetes for well over three decades. And today, she came on this is something I guess, she came on to talk about burnout a little bit. And then I, I mean, she talked about it, she said everything she wanted to say but I completely took the conversation in a direction that was more about I don't know my, I guess my fascination with people's minds how they're built, fortitude versus struggle, that kind of stuff. I think it's really interesting. But I talked way more than I meant to there's something about Erica, that makes me very comfortable. Please remember, while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan. Or becoming bold with insulin. If you wait for the end of the episode, Eric and I announce some things that we're going to do in the future together.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Omni pod dash, a tubeless insulin pump that you may be eligible for a free 30 day trial of Learn more at Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Today's episode of the podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. It's little, it's accurate. It fits in your pocket. And it gives you those numbers those sweet sweet numbers. Super, super accurate, sweet, sweet numbers. Contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. Erica, the timing of this recording is interesting, because not too long ago, I recorded with Jenny about does Jenny burnout and being 1,000,000%? Honest, I didn't know what Jenny was going to say. Like I didn't like send Jenny a you know, an email and say, Hey, have you ever experienced burnout we should talk about on the podcast I just said let's talk about burnout. And she said okay, when she said that she hasn't ever really experienced that. I'm like, Okay, well, this is her truth. And let's talk about it. Well, Erica, then I got a number of messages from people who were not thrilled that I didn't talk to somebody who had been through birth. And I was like, Well, I've got Erica on the schedule coming up. So let's get to that instead. So, I mean, you understand, you know, the podcasts like I don't, I'm not setting things up to happen in a certain way. I just I had the conversation. Jenny, you know, is a specific person, and she's pretty great at managing herself. And on top of that is, uh, I don't know, she's an active person she eats well, like, you know what I mean? Like, maybe her diabetes is just easier to manage for some reason. Or maybe it's just specific to her wiring in her brain. Like, who knows, you know, but I do want to talk about the other side of it. And I'm excited that you're here. So welcome back.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:31
Yes. Well, thank you. I'm happy to be here. Yes. Talk about the burnout.

Scott Benner 3:35
So let's just start on a personal level, right? You've had diabetes forever and a half, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:41
Yes. 30 plus years? Actually, that's

Scott Benner 3:45
great. Because so is Jenny. So it's easy for me to remember that you're both over 30 years. Yes. I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:49
think we're similar in our diagnosis. Yes. Am

Scott Benner 3:52
I crazy? So, alright, have you ever experienced it and and more, more specifically, when you hear the word burnout? What does it make you think of?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:04
I think yes. So I will speak to my own experience. But I think with burnout, I think of it can be either a short period of time, or you know, in really sad and tragic cases, it can be forever. And burnout is comes from, you're so exhausted, you're so overwhelmed. You're so frustrated and stressed by all of the management of diabetes, and I'm not just talking about the daily blood sugar, you know, checking whether it's finger picking CGM or the injections that the pump sites but it's also you know, the doctor's appointments, the blood draws the eye appointments. And so you could be burnout could look like well, maybe you're, you're bolusing but maybe you're not checking your blood sugar. Or maybe you're kind of going through the motions but you haven't been to the doctor, you haven't had your eyes appointments in yours, you haven't had to get your, you know, your blood drawn. And, again, I think it's really important to understand that burnout, it can be, I mean, it's not just like a one time situation maybe you're busy and you went didn't go to your doctor's appointment or you didn't feel like injecting for that one meal that one time, but it is a pattern behavior. But it can be reversible. If you are in a burnout stage right now listening to this, I also want to you know, speak cope into that experience, that you might feel like you are in a hole and alone and feel like you can't get out. But I want to encourage and speak Copan to those people who might be listening who are in a kind of burnout stage right now.

Scott Benner 5:50
I have a question. But before I ask it, I know you're using different headphones today and usually do or they appaled wired

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:56
headphones. They are wired Apple Yes. Do you want me to switch?

Scott Benner 6:00
I want your hair to stop touching them. Oh, okay. That's all okay. Or might be my scarf. Let me take that something's rubbing it. That's okay. Okay, thank you. No, no, please. Is that better? I won't know till you start talking again. So my initial question as a man, I mean, listen, I'm a neophyte on this. I don't have diabetes. But I have been alive for 50 years. And I feel like I've experienced burnout on a number of things in my life. So is it? Is it a similar feeling? And a similar situation to anything else? I mean, could a person just get sick of getting up every day at seven o'clock and going to work or cleaning the house? Or like things that are repetitive that feel burdensome? Like is that? I mean, is this a common human feeling? Or do you think it's very specific to diabetes?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:49
Oh, I think it's definitely a common human experience of feeling burnout, going up going to work, getting, you know, maybe getting the getting the kids to school, making dinner, cleaning the house doing all the normal errands of life. I would say maybe the difference is with diabetes, burnout, obviously, that affects your your life and your health. But it might and that is both physically and emotionally. And not to minimize burnout in other areas. Maybe you're, you're on a you're doing like a diet and exercise regiment, you can burn out from that for periods of time. And that's a normal human phenomenon. Right? And I think to anticipate and expect that is also healthy. So you're not feeling so shameful in those moments or ashamed of yourself?

Scott Benner 7:37
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The only thing I can, but it made me think of just now when you said that, is that when my wife and I first got married, and we were talking about what we thought it meant to be married, you know, for your whole life. I remember saying, I don't know, like, by the time it's over, if we have, you know, eight, great years, nine, okay, years, three pretty great years, six crappy years, like, like, I don't know, like, I don't expect the whole thing to be not that I wouldn't work at it. But I would expect the ebbs and flows like Like everything else. And you don't mean like talking about this, just what you've been saying. First off, makes it feel so clear to me, that people need to understand that they haven't caught some special diabetes, flu, you know, what he mean? Like that this is how people's minds work. And that it could happen to you differently than it happens to me or more frequently, or less severe, etc. Like, it's not, it's not an experience, that's just, you know, it's not going to be one size fits all, I guess, is what I'm saying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:42
Correct? Yeah. And I read a stat recently that over 50% of adults with type one experience, burnout or, and kind of a distress burnout situation, at least once a year. And I think what you were referencing, you know, in terms of your marriage, it's managing your expectations in terms of, can I live this perfect marriage or have a perfect diabetes, being a perfect diabetic, so to speak, and having this perfect straight line and all of the things I think it's okay to strive for excellence and to strive for healthy management, but in that, having appropriate expectations, helps prevent the disappointment and, and which then goes back to the shame and feelings of you know, pain and frustration and exhaustion and isolation, I think is the other big factor.

Scott Benner 9:44
Okay, and then commingled with health, which is what you were trying to say earlier, and then you're such a kind person, you you were like undaunted it couldn't happen to other people. But but your health is the I mean, it's really what makes it so emergent, right? Like if I if I burn out on vacuum The worst that's gonna happen is I have a dirty rug. If I burn out on Pre-Bolus thing, my a one C is gonna go up two points, then that's a different situation like it really is, it makes it more. I think I think you just said it, it makes it feel more like a failure, I would imagine. It makes it feel more panicky. And then you see people roll into that feeling all the time, like, well, you know, I mean, you know, like, I guess to bring it to a diet metaphor, like I already gained three pounds, What's five pounds, I already gained five pounds. What's, you know, I mean, like, my blood sugar is 150. Now, it's always 180. Now, it's always 200. And you just sort of incrementally I'll, you just you allow for more and more, because it starts to feel like, like, there's no way to get back to it. And I know that just something people struggle with, in general, like, how do I get back to where I mean to be when it feels like, this weight is on me? And it just gets heavier and heavier as times pass? So what's the answer to that question? Like, how do you reset? Is there a blanket statement for that? Or no?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:06
Oh, gosh, yes. Well, I think resetting I think the example you just shared, I would want to pause and say, Well, what what are you telling yourself? What are you thinking? What do you what are you thinking, which obviously affects your feelings, which affects your behaviors. And so if you're thinking, kind of your self talk is negative. And I'm never going to be able to get back to where I was, I'm never going to be able to figure out how to manage my blood sugar's in the way that I know I should, how. So kind of really, if you're in a very self deprecating, really negative self talk space, I think it would be healthy to reach out for help. And which is obviously a hard I know, we've talked about this a lot. It's a really hard first step. Because when you're in that zone of cycling through, I'm a bad diabetic, I can never figure this out. I'm always high. I'm or I'm always going up and down the roller coaster. I don't know how to do this. I think it is kind of a two prong approach. And I know we have talked about Will you need the tools to learn how to how to manage your blood sugar. Right. So one is one isn't having the skill set. But then also there's the the health and well being of your of your psyche and how you were talking to yourself, and how you're feeling about yourself in connection to your diabetes management. And that's when it's healthy. A healthy first step would be to reach out to your endocrinologist and asking for either some help or a referral to a therapist. Because I think that's when it's beneficial to not only learn the skill set of how to manage, but then also kind of process through How did you get to this place of feeling burnout? And what kind of feelings felt so overwhelming, that you stopped taking your insulin?

Scott Benner 13:06
So to me, this brings up the two these two things in my head that I think, support each other, or let me see what you think. Now, you know, because you've been on the podcast for a while, and who excuse me, I apologize. And people who listen know that for me. I mean, I'm not a mental health professional, and I don't have diabetes, but it's always been my hope or my assertion that having good tools would make management easier. And when I met and when that management is easier, that hopefully that would alleviate some of the burden some feelings that diabetes brings. I know that's not 100% True. I know it's not going to work for everybody. I've talked to people who understand management backwards and forwards and still, you know, experience exactly what we're talking about today. But you you brought up something, I'm going to use the wrong word here and you're going to correct me okay. But attitude. And I know it's not attitude when it's mental health, but it's what is it? It's intense. It's how you move forward. It's the like, I feel like you're talking about a bigger subject. I think you're talking I feel like you'll tell me if I'm wrong. I feel like you're talking about just fortitude like general life fortitude, and that you're going to run into things. And that if your expectation or your response is oh here something went wrong. I guess the whole thing's in the crapper. I'll just give up versus somebody who runs into a problem and just does not relent. They press forward and press for and I know that's not always a conscious decision that can be made that some people's brains are just wired differently. But I mean, is that what you're saying is it's just about how you attack the problem and how you think of it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:59
I I would agree to that. Yes, a little bit. I think it's about mindset, right? And how either how you're wired or how you've learned to respond to either trauma. I mean, obviously with this is that because it's chronic management, right? Learning how to manage your diabetes is a forever thing. And so having a positive mindset is definitely helpful. But just because you have a positive outlook, attitude, Mantra mindset, doesn't mean that you won't experience these challenging emotions at some point. Yeah, I think then learning then knowing what to do with them is the next step. Because what, and I think we're kind of getting more into, like, what we people would define as distress, diabetes, distress, like, you can still have an amazing a one C, you can still know how to manage and Pre-Bolus and do all of the all the things that you have, you know, taught so well on the podcast, but maybe you're still have a fear of hypoglycemia. Or maybe you still are struggling around food, or maybe you're still struggling around how people engage with you, whether it's friends or family about type one, but you know how to manage it well. And so those still, those little moments can still cause this distress. Throughout your life, even if you've if you know how to manage, yeah, and then that, then it's okay, I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. I'm hearing myself say, I'm so irritated by diabetes, why do I have to have this? Or why does? Why do my friends at school? Keep talking to me about it? Or why do they keep saying, Can you eat that? Can you eat that, like those if they're little, those are like little blips on the radar that will happen, you know, for our entire life. And then it's learning how to respond to like, it's okay to have those feelings. Obviously, it's okay to be frustrated. It's I talk about a lot with my, my families, my and my clients, it's okay to be angry and frustrated with having type one, right? That's a normal response, and said, Okay, now, what are we going to do with that? Can we express it? Can we process that, as opposed to then spiraling further further into a hole? Right, which then leads to the burnout? Does that make sense? It does. Okay,

Scott Benner 17:21
I'm not a Listen, I'm not a I'm not a bootstraps person, like I would never turn to you and be like, try harder. You know what I mean? Like, I don't feel that way. And I understand that a lot of people have a lot of different impacts that maybe are lifelong, or, you know, something that makes this trauma feel, you know, reflective of something that's happened to them in the past. I only have myself like, I only know that I raised like, I don't I'm always I'm endlessly interested about this. Because my wife grew up in a tough situation. I grew up in a much harder situation. I don't know why. I'm a head down, keep moving move forward person and not a oh my god, what happened to me, this is a disaster. I give up. And I don't think I can take credit for it is what I'm saying. And I don't you know what I mean? Like, I don't know what it is about me or the situation that I came through and all the people who impacted me along the way, or didn't, I just turned out the way I turned out. And so is it just as simple as like, you know what I mean? Like, I know, I'm asking like a deeper question that you probably don't have the answer to but, but is it just random? Is it just random that, that I'm the God? Like, if the zombies come, Erica, come find me. We're living through it. Okay. I don't know why. I just know, Scott wins in the end, okay. It's how it's how it's just always gone for me. How is that a function of my decision making? Is it a function of something that happened to me in the past? And is it and and what about the person who sees the zombies and just lays down and goes, Okay, eat me. Surrender. Yeah, you know, like, like, that's not that's, they can no more be told that they're at fault for that, then I can be given credit for my response. That's how I think about it, but I don't know how that helps people.

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:18
And I feel like we're talking about you know, is it is it resilience? Is it and and how is that? Is it nature? Is it nurture? is a little bit of both? I would I would look at you know, what was your what was modeled for you and your family? As a child? What was what kinds of other traumas or stressors were you exposed to as a child? And how did you see the people around you respond to those? Yeah. You know, for some families when their child is diagnosed, it can be a very, I mean, it's obviously traumatic for anyone in the beginning. And then there are some families who say we're going to this isn't going to stop you. We're going to do all the things all the time. And then there are some families who it might it might take longer for them to get to that kind of baseline. Okay, we've we're going to get through this and that's okay.

Scott Benner 24:11
So I I'm not minimizing anything, but I can tell you raising my kids that, you know, Arden got hit once in the knee with a softball while she was pitching by a much bigger girl. And I mean it down to her like he went down hard, right? And my wife's like, go check on her. I was like the coaches with her. And she's like you have to go out to and I'm like, she'll be alright letter. I Kelly's panicking. I'm like, Kelly, listen, if she's dead, she's already dead. There's nothing we can do about it. I said, But, but Right. But this is literally what I said to my wife. Don't be jealous ladies. And I said if she's dead, she's already dead. There's nothing we can do about it. But if she's going to be okay, one day, let her figure it out on our own for a minute. Like let's not make her think that every time something happens to her we're going to run behind her scoop her up and be like it's okay. And I did make my way to her. But not you don't mean like I wasn't running on the field screaming my baby, you know, like it was right away, let it play out that little girl, you guys will know Arden now is being five, seven and oh, she's a woman. But back then Arden was five, three, she weighed like 90 pounds. And she was tiny. And she got up, continued to pitch the inning, got the rest of her outs, bunted in the next inning, ran the first and then walked over to me and said, I think I should stop playing. Okay. So I said, Hey, no problem, what's wrong? And she's like, My knee is really swelling up. And I said, okay, so Oh my gosh. But that little moment, I think is why when you hear Arden interviewed on the podcast, you say to yourself, like, that kid just sounds like she doesn't even care that she has diabetes, because on some level, I don't think she does. Like I think that it's not I should say that it's not a number one stressor in her life. And it is a pain in the butt. Like she just came in here. 20 minutes before you and I recorded. She comes in and she goes, Hey, let's go get lunch and I said, I'm gonna record with Eric. And now I can't and she's like, Ah, she made a little disappointed face. And then I said, um, but I'll be done in about an hour. I'm gonna jump in the shower, we can go. And she's like, Okay. And then I said, is your pump almost out of insulin? And I watched her thing her eyes rolled back in her head. She thought and she goes, Yeah, I'll go change it. And I was like, okay, and she loved it. But no, like, no, like Scarlett O'Hara moment? No, what was me? I can't believe this is happening. You know? And I don't know, like, to me. It's a fine line when you're raising children, right? Like you. You have to let them stand on the edge by themselves. But they have to know you're there. But not feel like they don't have to do it. But But what happens if you're 19 or 20 years old? That's not how you were raised? What if somebody I don't want to say coddled, because I really do think, Erica, that when people talk about this nowadays? It's just? I don't know, I think it's I don't know, I don't think they talk about it correctly. I think people make overly simplified generalizations. We coddle kids now, you don't I mean, pressure makes diamonds. And they don't say anything else. Like, alright, well, pressure also makes you pressure also makes anxiety ridden people like, flip there. You know, you have to support people. You know, I hate using these likes. I hate using Office words, but you have to meet people where they are. So I can't believe I just said that. I feel like that was that was really good. I know. But I feel like an idiot say like, it's like if I ever said let's think outside of the box, I'd be the right person to be like, Oh, Scott, shut up. But, but it's just 100% True. You have to meet people where they are you have to raise your children who they are, not who you want them to be or what you think a perfect scenario would be. So then my question keeps coming back to me is now we've kind of covered the parenting aspect of it. I mean, if no one's paying attention, what I'm saying to you is let your kids struggle a little bit, but not too much. You figure out where it fits my opinion. But what I really want to hear from you is adults or adolescent children, or people you see in your practice, they come in, and this is how they see the world. It's against them. They're losing, it's too hard. Where do you where do you where would you begin to get somebody back and say, This is no harder for you than this for anybody else. And that person is doing great. Let's get you thinking more like that person?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:37
Well, I would never say that. But

Scott Benner 28:39
you wouldn't have a professional. Erica, you understand like? Good? Well, I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:45
would first I would commend them for taking the first step for seeking help. Because that's often you know, the most challenging thing when you're in a state of burnout or high distress. I think I would also be curious to learn about their upbringing. You know, thinking about your story or softball story with Arden. I was wondering, you know, when you were a little boy, how were you tended to when you got hurt or had a hard day at school.

Scott Benner 29:19
I grew up in the 70s. I was taught to swim by being thrown in a pool and somebody's going he probably won't drown. When I fingers crossed when I was picked on it as a child, I can't believe I have to pull references in a row. But when I was picked on as a child can 1112 years old by the kid in I grew up in an apartment complex. The kid in the apartment complex that basically terrorized everyone he was older and bigger and stronger. In my mind. He was like Lou Ferrigno. I'm sure he wasn't. He would hold us underwater in the pool during the summertime. And I and my mom told me figure it out.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:58
There you go. There you go. Go figure it out. You were, you know, you were encouraged to, and I'm sure there was some sort of safety, sense of safety and nurturing, but also because you you do that as a father or your, you've learned that. And so I would be curious to hear just kind of what has been their history of dealing with stress. And when things are hard, how do they respond, I also would spend a lot of time normalizing the experience because being feeling like you're in a state of burnout, and you're, you're stressed out and overwhelmed, it's not. It's not a complication. It's not a sight. It's not, yeah, it's not a complication of having type one, or diabetes, type two, it doesn't matter. It's a part of living with it. And so I think helping, helping the client see that they're, they're not alone is a huge part of healing and growth, because I think you do get stuck in that. I'm the only one who can't figure this out. I'm the only one who's so burdened by living with this chronic illness. And so it is it is a normal part of living with type one. And so and then moving into a place of compassion as a result, I think once you realize that you're you're not alone, you can start to be kinder to yourself. And that's also another step towards healing is just learning how to nurture yourself and be compassionate and kind that way that maybe you didn't experience as a child and needed to

Scott Benner 31:48
how much of this is about your expectation for what should be?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:52
Oh, I think it's, it's majority of like, I having your expectation that it's everything is your going to be perfect. And get, you know, the time everything perfectly, have the correct response. And all of it is a big is a big part of it. And so I think understanding that you can't be a perfect, quote, diabetic, that you are going to have in there, they're going to be moments, not just like mistakes on it on a daily basis, or like whoops, I Bolus, you know, four units, I should have probably done double that or should have started that, you know, people sooner. That's, that's totally normal. But then also being kind to yourself when you when you're in when you're in burnout. So it's like they think they practicing self compassion in the moment to moment, but then also in the larger, you know, grander scheme of where you are emotionally.

Scott Benner 32:53
So you hear people say this, I think they're half and joking, and they're half being serious. But I've heard a lot of people say this, and I have to be honest with you, I I subscribed to this a little bit as I was coming up. So again, it's not diabetes, but I grew up really broke. My dad left when I was 13. We didn't have any money. My mom was always working. I was raising my brothers. By the time I was 13 and a half, like, you know, they were like, in five. I have the bar set so low, Erica. I walk across the room and nothing bad happens. I'm like we are winning. Finally, coming together for Scott, and like, so I really do think that I think that because I was I because I grew up in a situation that just wasn't full of things going the way you wanted or wins. Then anytime something went even reasonably, right. I was like, Hey, we're removing like, we're moving forward. I'm getting there, you know. And I don't I mean, obviously, nobody wants my upbringing. But I don't know how you I remember feeling when my kids were little that we had, we had a send a little bit, my wife and I had better our lives. And I remember worrying, where is my son's friction going to come from? Mm hmm. You know, like, how can you? How can he How can he learn to see the zombies and laugh? If everything that happens to him is always perfect. And that anytime something goes wrong? It's tough. I'll tell you right now, his health had been perfect till he was 21 when he got Hashimotos he had a much harder time with it than Arden would have. Because nothing had gone wrong in 21 years for him. And it was it was it was more of a process now that's when my wife and I come in and support him. And you know, it's tough because you're you're supporting a person who might not want to hear your support at times. So you have to kind of be like a ninja about when you slip it in sometimes and not go too far. And there's a whole there's a skill set in too into getting thoughts into people's heads without, without them pushing back so hard that you don't get to say the next thing. But I don't know, I just to me expectations got to have a lot to do with it. And from there it's perspective.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:14
Yes. And I think also what you're talking about is like, because you went through the challenging times, not only did that build resilience, but its sense of, you know, grit, that's a big term these days in the mental health world is, which a lot of people also experienced, you know, but now coming out of the pandemic of like, this sense of grit, like we can get through this, but that doesn't always end and also, the challenges has brought you to a place of gratitude. And so I think, fine, it's like finding that balance of okay, I can experience the stressors and these hard moments. But you also have found, at least in your own story, you know, moments of gratitude, when things are things go well, and you're, you're excited and you celebrate.

Scott Benner 36:03
Yeah, I also think that on social media, I'm not a big proponent of, you know, blaming social media for things, but I do get why seeing people struggle online is important. Like I like when people share honestly, I guess, because then you can look and go, Oh, hell, like, that happens to me, I thought I was the only one but happen to that person, too. I try my hardest to balance, hope about management of diabetes on the podcast with remembering to tell people like my kids, blood sugar is not always 90. You know, they may not like I know it, could I know you can hear Arden's a one C and think, Oh, she must walk around with a 92 blood sugar constantly. Straight line all day long. Yeah, now that works. And so but but what I do is, I limit highs, I limit the length of spikes, like I get, you know, I don't you know, where some people, you know, think of as a higher number, you get the 140, I start getting a little like a I don't like how this is going, you know, 180 I consider high. And all I learned about that, that that example for Arden's care was that at 180, I could crush that high and bring it back down without creating a low. So I just changed in my mind the definition of a high blood sugar. That's all I did, right? Because prior to that, I thought High was 300. Right? Right. And that's it. So I just decided that high went one ad, which changed how I reacted to things, which changed my outcome was like that. So and but somebody needs to say that to you once so that, you know. And I mean, Eric, I don't know how much you actually get to listen to this podcast. But I've spoken to just I mean, close to 1000 people at this point. Now, and everyone's stories are fairly similar. The reasons why people do well versus struggle. There's a ton of similarities in there, most of the time, it's got nothing to do with them. It's got to do with the random stuff, like meeting the right doctor, or having a parent who didn't help too much and didn't help too little, you know, having some hope. Like, like meeting people who have diabetes, hearing other people's stories, like all these very common through lines. Yes. You know what I mean? Like, in the end? I think that's, I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? Like, we're not just talking about how do you save somebody who's so far down the burnout hole that they can't see the light anymore? You're also talking about? How do you stay out of it to begin with or limit your time in it? I think,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:32
yes. And I think all of those things are very common, you know, key factors in helping you survive, living with type one, you know, the community, not feeling like you're alone, having the support, having a doctor who understands having the hope, I think as a human belief that you're going to be okay, and hope that you it won't it there will be moments and seasons where diabetes might feel more challenging. And there are all sorts of you know, those, they're the normal stressors of life. And, but understand that it's not always going to be like that. I think that's, that's a common misunderstanding. And when you're feeling down, you feel like you're always gonna feel that down. But to remember that, you know, those those it passes, it does pass and to have hope and understanding that it will helps you kind of get through those stages.

Scott Benner 39:34
It feels to me like expecting that everything isn't going to be perfect without dreading that everything isn't going to be perfect is a big key, right? Like knowing that. I mean, listen, everyone has who uses insulin is going to agree with that. I'm gonna say doesn't matter how well things are going in the back of your head you're like, This is gonna get sideways at some point. I don't know when and I don't know why. but I am gonna just like, you know, all of a sudden, like see a blood sugar is just creeping 9110 120 You're like, Oh God, this is never gonna stop. I haven't said this a little while but those kinds of those kinds of blood sugars that remind me that price is right.

Unknown Speaker 40:14
Yes, the claiming Yeah.

Scott Benner 40:17
Yeah, yeah. Cuz they they're like yo Lee and there's this you're like that happens and the whole time you're watching it you can see the person playing the game like it's gonna stop. It's gonna stop, it's gonna stop and then it doesn't it falls off the edge. Yes, that's how I That's how. That's how I think of those climbing blood sugars. On a side note, a woman sent me a text today and asked me if I was dyslexic because she said that Dyslexics think in pictures. I'm not dyslexic, but I never heard that before. Yeah, visual. Yeah, I just, I just my brain makes connections to things that don't appear to have anything to do with.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:53
Well, you I was right there with you. I was totally envisioning the guy climbing the mountain. I can hear

Scott Benner 41:01
the yodeling. I mean, I don't even think Drew Carey, I think Bob Barker, and that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:04
Oh, for sure. Oh, no, for sure. Yes, Tiny. Microphone. He

Scott Benner 41:08
had everything? Yes. But so like when you're in that situation, and people have heard me say it on the podcast a lot. And I believe in it, like one of the keys to diabetes management is not to give into the drama. And like, that's how I used to think of it. But as we're having this conversation, I mean, it might be a little reductive to say drama, but at the same time, I'm not going to apologize for it. Because I mean it and I think it's accurate. You can't have something happen and start running around like, Oh, what was me this is i This is how it's gonna be everything sucks. You, to me, you use that moment to try to figure it out. It's an example for you to look at, you make a better decision next time with insulin, which is most likely where it went wrong. And, and and it's a learning experience, because every time you ignore a learning experience, it becomes a, it's a it's another problem. That's just going to happen again. And you know, so what I see happen to people, when I'm kind of watching them online and talking to them, is that some people throw themselves into the despair. And some people steel up their spine and fight back. I'm endlessly fascinated by who is who.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:20
Right and how, how did they get there? Right?

Scott Benner 42:23
Oh, I'm never gonna not be interested in that. Yes. You know, I don't think there's an answer, like I said, but it's fascinating to me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:32
Oh, absolutely. And I think yeah, there is no kind of general summary statement that you can make as to how or why you fall into either category. I think it's, it's all it's all the factors that we, that we talked about.

Scott Benner 42:48
So I'm going to draw a line here. Okay, you're probably gonna disagree with me. But anyway, that's what will make this fun. Okay, and I'm not saying dollar for dollars, apples to apples. Okay. But in the last handful of years, in society in general, online, specifically, I feel like I'm seeing people who want to be upset. Does that make sense? Like not that like, like, they, they're, I don't know, somebody says something social or political or something like that. And if you're just reasonable about it, and step back, you go, alright, I see what they're saying. Or, you know, I don't agree, but whatever. But instead, they feel like that's an opening to proselytize their idea. Right. Like, it's almost like they're looking for an opening to say something. Mm hmm. I wonder if, similarly, but not the same. If when something goes wrong in someone's life, if they're just, they're just almost happy, and maybe subconsciously happy to have a reason to complain? Like, they just want to tell the world like, this sucks. I have diabetes. And you can't say that to people. You can't walk around going, oh my god, everything's terrible. I gotta shoot that I got this pump on. I'm doing this. I hate all this. Right, like, so it's just a great opportunity to commiserate maybe just with yourself. Because there's no one else. Like, that's what I'm starting to think like, do you just does it give you the opportunity to just sit down for a second and feel bad for yourself? Because you don't have anybody else to talk about it with day to day? Like, I don't know how and I guess

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:23
you're wondering like, is that how people kind of get to a stage of burnout? Or you're saying is that an opportunity for them to it's okay to validate the challenges to yourself

Scott Benner 44:33
as ironic as this is gonna sound? I think both. I think that it's, I don't think there's anything wrong with stopping for a minute and going oh, my God, this is hard. I wish this was not happening to me. But I don't know how valuable that is for you to do with any real consistency. I have had my absolute thoughts. I have stood in a room privately and thought how the hell did this happen to my kids? When I look around I see so Are many other people who do not have concerns like this. How is my smart and funny and pretty daughter always worried about this thing or always having to think about this thing or waking up in the morning and tell me hey, my stomach hurts. I don't know what it's from. Or, you know, the other night, Erica, her toes started to go numb. Oh, Arden's been Arden's been tested for everything under the sun. And she, she has hypothyroidism and type one diabetes. Like there's nothing that points to any other thing. Addison's or whatever, whatever anyone's gonna hear and think of next, right. Trust me, we've looked, okay. So I believe, thank you. And yet, here's my daughter trying to do homework. Dad, my toes are numb, can you just squeeze them? So they don't hurt like this till it stops? 17? Why is that gonna happen to her? And and if I were to think that over and over again, that would crush me. Right? So I squeeze your toes, and then we get up and we keep moving. You don't mean like you? You just can't like, Eric, it's too much, it'd be too much. Like, I think the problem that I just realized with this conversation, is that I think of myself, I think of myself as a person who's going to beat the zombies. And I believe that, but I don't know that that's true. I just think it's important that I believe it. Right? You know, I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:29
Gosh, I think you just touched on a lot of different things. I think having the space, like I see, you know, in the Facebook group, who are like, particularly people who are newly diagnosed, often caregivers will will share and grieve. And they receive the validation. And I think that's a beautiful place to share your initial grief and and then you receive the the validation and the community support. It's just, it's beautiful. And I see that all the time. That's totally healthy, and appropriate, I think. And then you're wondering, but how I think we want to look at is it becoming a pattern in your response to living with the chronic illness or being the caregiver for it? I think, yes, it is so normal and healthy, to to commiserate and to let them out. And say I cannot believe we're still dealing with this or now where you know, all the like the transitions going into high school, going into college, having children, maybe your your doctor moves, or you have to change insurance, and you have to change doctors, all of those things. Or you have you been on all all of the different factors in management. Within life transitions are definitely opportunities to to vent and grieve with your, with your family, with community. But I think you're wondering, like, when does that become? If that is your automatic thought and response to daily management, whether you are the person with type one or the caregiver, then that would be a time to maybe look internally and say, Gosh, I'm not sure I know how to manage this emotionally. And I need to reach out for more professional help, right, because I think I do want to normalize that the process of grieving. And that's what it is. I just think if you're feeling the loss of normalcy, but then you're having that balance, sorry,

Scott Benner 48:29
no, no, you have to be able to talk to some, I mean, in the end, if we if we strip all this down, you're a little kid, you didn't get good communication for your parents, or you didn't get good communication from a doctor or you didn't have good communication with other people who have diabetes. And now here you are these problems that you thought, Oh, this is never gonna affect me, I'm good start to pile up on you. You have to go seek out someone to talk to like it could be Erica, if you live in California, or worry, it could be a friend or I know a lot of people listen to the show because hearing other people's problems helps alleviate their own. You know, like whatever it is, but you can't just sit there and hope it's not going to happen or that it's going to go away. Because that's not gonna work. That's just going to get worse and worse and worse. Right now is conversation about it too, no matter where you have the conversation.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:22
Yes and then and then learning how to because as we know there will be challenging moments with with not just diabetes but in life and learning how to respond how to give yourself that like the validation and then having to move on and I'm sorry to hear about artists toes by the way, I skipped over I wanted to say they hope that you that it becomes resolved. You're very

Scott Benner 49:43
nice. We're gonna cut our toes off and fix something if we had all Verto surgically removed then the tip of her foot started to tingle. Oh my gosh. Anyway, then it would turn into like a weird horror movie where eventually Arden would just be a nub. Anyway That's not here nor there. We're not going to cut off her toes. She has an appointment in a couple of days with a integrative endocrinologist and we're gonna just keep, we're gonna keep hacking away until we figure something out. But we're not going to stop living while we're trying to figure it out. Meaning meaning that if Listen, I'm not saying that this is the truth, but meaning that if Arden's life is, you know, let's say her health is let's say we have a crystal ball, we can see the future and Arden's health is going to completely degrade by the time she's 35. And she's going to spontaneously combust. Like, I still wouldn't sit around today and go woe is me, I'd be like, get the college, learn the thing, get good at what you're doing, meet people live your life. I think that's just super important to remember that, that this is gonna sound so hippy, but you're not promised any certain amount of time. And so the truth is, you just got to live the best you can day to day. And you know, some people, some people get to walk through a field of flowers through their life, and not too much goes wrong for them. And some people are being shot with arrows while they're trying to walk forward through that, that field of flowers. But in my mind, I want to be the guy that gets hit with the arrow and doesn't stop. Like, I want to, I want to take as many of them as I can before I give up. And I just think that that's you can think of it a different ways. Like maybe it's fake it till you make it. Or maybe it's just a little bit of little blip of blind ignorance on my part. But one way or the other. I know what the alternative is. The alternative is it's over. And that's not okay for me. So I'd rather walk through that field of flowers with it with an arrow in my shoulder, then not see the field of flowers at all. I don't know, that's just kind of how I think about life. Like, I don't know how long this is gonna last. I'm not missing any of it. That's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:51
yeah, so I love that. And I think Yeah. And how did you get there? It's all you know, your life experience.

Scott Benner 51:59
You're bringing Erica.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:02
Oh, my gosh. Oh, and then and then you've learned you've learned to how you want to face your day and your life. I think, as you were talking about, you know, you're you guys are live, you're moving forward. But you also are getting the doctor's appointment to kind of explore if there's something else going on. For Arden, I think that's you're able to break down, that there's this bigger concern what is happening, but you can break it down into smaller chunks, you are taking it one day at a time. I think that part of what also leads to the feeling of over I'm so overwhelmed. I have to I'm just giving up. Obviously, that's not always a conscious decision. It's just feeling like I don't even know how to get back to, you know, ground zero in terms of my functioning emotionally, physically with my management. And so finding ways to break it down and just say, Okay, well, I'm going to make an appointment. I'm going to do this, I'm not going to fix everything today. I think that's another helpful way to respond.

Scott Benner 53:03
I'll break it down into two sentence for anybody's listening, get your Basal right Pre-Bolus Your meals, everything's gonna get a lot easier. And when it gets easier, go listen to the pro tips and make other like adjustments. I seriously mean that I don't listen, it's a good first step. You're sure five people or 5 million people listen to those pro tips. I don't make any more or less money. I don't you know, I'm just telling you, I think the informations in there. I think Jenny and I laid it out really well. And it's a way that's absorbable it's not overwhelming. And you really will see a difference. You be surprised you get those high blood sugars down and more stable, how much better you feel and how much better that makes you at being able to weather a bad day. You don't mean because you're not already. I mean, we don't talk about it enough, right? But high blood sugars, swinging blood sugars, they affect your emotions, too. And your and your guess your clarity, everything.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:54
They in two ways they affect your emotions, not only like physically because you don't feel you don't feel good physically, which makes you feel emotionally not well. But then I think there's also like the self efficacy, self competency part of it too. Like not only do you feel physically yucky, and then you might have the I can't even figure this out.

Scott Benner 54:13
You got file you're on top of it. Yeah. Oh, I'll tell you I just I love. I love talking about stuff like this. But you know, I just want to say this might be clinically improper. And you can do your own disclaimer afterwards. I do not. I don't ascribe to what Scott just said. But I think if you're struggling sometimes and you're listening to another person, whether it's on this podcast or it's me now or whatever it is, and you think God I wish I was more like that in that situation. Just steal it from me for a little while. Just pretend like there's nothing wrong with just pretending until I do think fake it till you make it's a real thing. You know, I there's nothing wrong with saying other people do this. Damn it. I bet you I could too. And even though this feels completely wrong to me right now. I'm just going to, I'm going to say the right things. And I'm going to do the right things. And I'm going to believe it. And maybe because the truth is, the truth is that the difference between success and failure is really just, it's just taking the right steps. Do you know what I mean by that, like you can, you can paint a wall, right? Or you can paint a wall wrong. If I teach you how to paint a wall correctly, you don't have to know about painting to paint the wall anymore. Somebody showed you what to do you do it when you're done, the walls got paint on it, five, or six or seven or 10 walls later, you actually know how to paint the wall. And then you get the outcome that you expect. So there's nothing wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with that idea. Just to model somebody who's having success until you can create that success for yourself. Am I completely off on that? Or

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:53
no, I think I think that can work for many people having you know, it's like the mantra of like, I can do it. I'm gonna, here's, this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm gonna model what I see other people do. I'm going to fake it. And I'm going to tell myself, I have hope and belief in myself. And I think for many people that might be all they need is having that mentor having the tools. Yeah, I think there are others who might need more support getting to that place to have the hope to be able to say, I know I can do this, or I believe in myself. I know, I just need to do X, Y and Z. And so I just want to also speak to people who might be listening who are feeling like, well, I can't even say that, I can't even pretend I can't even try and fake it. Because I'm so low, I'm struggling so much. And, and that's okay to you know, to be in a place where you feel like I can't even I can't even imagine faking it till I make it because I can't even get out of bed. And so I just want to speak some compassion into that group as well, that it's okay if you're in that zone. But I think for many people, that might be the first step to having that mantra. Yeah. Has it happened to you? Did it? Did burnout ever happen to me? Yeah. I would say not in the sense of a long period of time. But I can say, burnout often might look like and this happens to a lot of the the teens that I've worked with as well, when I was a teenager, just wanting to be, quote, normal and fit in. And so maybe this was back in the day with, you know, fingerprints and injections where I wouldn't take my blood sugar. For, I wouldn't say it was all day. But there are definitely moments over long periods of time where I would not take my blood sugar because I just didn't want to deal with it, I would still inject. But that was not positive. You know, there weren't always positive outcomes with that. And so I would say burnout can look like in certain stages of life. Just wanting to ignore, like, you don't have type one, to a certain extent, and so that I did experience that for sure as a teenager in high school.

Scott Benner 57:59
Back then, when I was younger, my friend decided to not have diabetes for a week. Then he was in the hospital, he was in decay. But if he told me afterwards, he's like, I just didn't want to do it for one week. You know, and I don't know what led him to that. And I can't ask him now because he's gone. But I guess I think we spoke about him. Yeah, but I just remember like, so clearly it happening. He just disappeared one day. And I was like I called his house. It's not like he's in the hospital, and then spoke to him afterwards. And that's all he said. He said, I just didn't want to do it for one week. But sadly, that's not the way it works. So, Eric, I've been mulling over for a half an hour where I want to tell this story, you're gonna be so horrified by it. But please remember that it happened like over 40 years ago, okay, okay. My dad grew up on a farm. And if I disagreed with him, he'd yell at me if I didn't agree with him after that. He'd smack me that was just sort of that was the process. Okay. And I remember one day, I don't know what we were talking about. But I can tell you that I was only maybe 12 years old. And he was physically imposing as a as a person, but specifically to me at 12. He looked like a, like, he looked like a monster to me. Like he was huge, you know, and he was yelling at me for something. And I knew he wasn't right. And I could have easily just said, like, alright, yeah, I'm sorry. And instead, I tried to, I tried to converse with him, which, you know, always goes really well when someone's yelling at you. And I pointed out where I thought I was right. And he didn't like that. And he smacked me. And I, I did it again. I responded again. And I think the next time he hit me, I stumbled, and I went to the ground. Like, I really want to be clear. Not that it matters. He did not knock. He didn't hit me hard enough to knock me off my feet. I literally backed up and like stumbled over something. But once I was on the ground it was too much effort to reach down to hit me. So he just started doing it with his foot instead. And it wasn't like in a movie, like he wasn't kicking me in the stomach and doubling me over, he was just like, again, not making I genuinely, I'm not, I'm not covering from A to B thing to do, no one should do it. I don't care if it was the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, or whatever, I'm not saying that, I just want to let you know, he was not kicking me to my death. And so he's now re asking the question, and saying things like, Do you agree with me now? And then I'd say no, oh, my goodness, he kicked me. And so at some point, I gathered up all of my strength. And I said, you can hit me as much as you want, it's not going to make you right. And he stopped. And I remember that moment as a triumph in my life. I don't remember it as being smacked. I don't remember it as being abuse, I remember it as me standing up for myself, and actually, being able to change make an effect of change. Like, I don't think it changed him. I don't think it made him less of who he was. But from there forward, he did not try to pressure me out of my opinion ever again. And I know that's not what's supposed to happen in a parenting relationship. I'm not, I'm not saying any of that. I'm saying, sometimes, you have to look this stuff in the face, and just be like, and just get angry. And, and stick up for yourself, kind of no matter what's gonna happen, like, in the end, like, your it, like you and your health, and this diabetes thing and all that comes with it. I think at some point, you just got to stand in front of that monster and be like, I don't care what you do. I don't give up. And I don't know, I just think I think that's a big part of who I am. And, and as much as I don't want to have a memory of being smacked as a kid. It's one of my most enduring prideful moments.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:05
Well, Scott, think Well, thank you for being vulnerable and sharing that. I feel like that depicts and explains why and how you are the person today and how you respond to trauma. How old were you again, when this happened?

Scott Benner 1:02:24
I couldn't move maybe 11 or 12 years old?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:27
Wow. Yeah. Did you ever have an opportunity to share that? I mean, I don't know if you like kind of relationship you had with your dad as an adult, or if he's a lifestyle, I'm sorry, I don't know that.

Scott Benner 1:02:39
He left about a year later. And I didn't see him until I was an adult. And maybe more than a handful of times, at the end of his life. Uh, we did see him and explained to him how all that felt. At that point. He was an older man. It's so interesting with guys, like once the testosterones gone, they're just different. You know what I mean? Like, it wasn't, I wasn't talking to the guy that smack me when I was 11. When you know, when he was in his 70s. But, you know, we were very clear with him about how I took my brothers to meet him one day, and I said, Look, I don't think we're here to make a relationship. We are here to unburden ourselves. Do not worry about how he feels you tell him how you feel. And so we did. We did that. And I mean, I was at his deathbed when he died. And I was quite glad that I was there. So yeah, I feel I don't have any that I'm aware of lingering concerns about it at all. It was also the 70s Like people hate each other for like, any reason whatsoever, it wasn't uncommon for this to happen. Erica one time I shot my brother with a BB gun just to see what would happen that 70s By the way, always wondering, it hurts like hell,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:03:57
yeah. Oh, wow. I think I mean, not only did that story is obviously a part of your, your growth and, you know, character development, but that also was who you are. I mean, in that moment, that was who you are, you were, you know, sticking up for yourself for truth. And so you had, it feels like you had you were born with a sense of grit.

Scott Benner 1:04:22
I want to I want to be clear that I think you are who you are in your mind. Like, like, if you're thinking back on if you're hearing that story of First of all, you're horrified. I appreciate that. I'm sorry, I had to tell it to you. But if you're picturing me as like some sort of like, in shape, buff, 12 year old kid who has that, like I was a little fat kid. Like I had no reason to stick up for myself seriously, Arca like there was nothing imposing about me. There was no that man did not think I was gonna stand up and turn the tide on him get on. I mean, like it was. All I had was what was in my heart and in my head, like that's how I think of myself. I almost don't even know what I look like. Like him. I my thoughts. That's how I that's how I think of myself. And I can't imagine something you could give me that I don't think I could conquer, I'm, I'd be wrong. But I can't imagine that thing. And there's nothing about the way I grew up that gave me any kind of confidence, like not nothing like that. I just, I don't know, I just tried to remain true to what I expect for myself. And I think I think everybody, that's a simple thing for people to do, to say I want to be healthy. And I don't want my blood sugar's to jump all over the place, damn it, and I can stand up to this and make a change. And if you don't know what to do, functionally with diabetes, just find please like it's in this podcast or find someone else. Because a lot of this goes away when you're not chasing blood sugar's around constantly. It's a huge, it's that, that that one aspect of type one, diabetes is a huge trigger for the rest of this. It's that that feeling that everything's never comfortable or settled, or the you know what you're doing. And when you can get rid of those feelings. I mean, this thing just gets, I would never say diabetes gets easy. But I think you get so good at it at some point, it can feel easy. And and that's where a lot of this goes away, I think, but maybe easier. Yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:06:25
I think yeah, I think the what you were just describing, you know, your thoughts are who you are. I mean, that's, I believe that as well. And that's why our thoughts are so important, because it does impact how we feel and what we do. And so I think, yes, having having the skill set, can reverse kind of that the triangle of okay, I have the I have the tools, I have the skill set, I do feel better. And now I have the thought I do have some hope. And that is a great first step to changing your thinking about how you how you deal with it,

Scott Benner 1:07:00
and to communicate, just keep communicating. Because I mean, that story that I just told, I mean, I feel like I just told Erica, but you know, now I realize a few more people are going to hear it than just but but I'm not bothered by that. Because I've gone over this in my life more than once. And just communicating it and going over it just sort of it turns it more into perspective, I can draw on unless have some story about why I should be sad. You don't even because I am. I am not a sad person. I'm in eternally hopeful person. I'm telling you, if you and I were, I don't know, trapped on a desert island together. You'd be annoyed because every morning I'd wake up and I'd be like, This is it. This is the day we're getting out of here. Like and then I would set upon trying to make that happen. And if it didn't happen, I think I'll try again tomorrow.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:07:50
Try it tomorrow.

Scott Benner 1:07:52
I don't know. Like, I feel lucky that that's how my brain works. I'll be honest, yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:07:55
You know, oh, thank you. I'm glad that we that you have that hope and you get your share that hope with us. And thank you again for sharing such a vulnerable memory.

Scott Benner 1:08:07
Oh, you make me feel so gushy inside when you're nice.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:13
Oh, well. I'm glad

Scott Benner 1:08:14
I feel like we're at the end of our appointment and you're like okay,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:17
I do I do.

Scott Benner 1:08:21
You know what, let's, let's before we say goodbye, let's tell everybody here that you and I are going to put a defining together for for mental health in over the the rest of 2022 and start getting it out to them as soon as possible. Yes, I am excited about it. And why do you have extra time now Erica, tell them

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:39
Well, now I want full full time private practice. And so I'm very excited to to share the the future episodes with you all with Scott, and more available to meet with you all. So California

Scott Benner 1:08:53
starting in June, right? You're starting in June, you're gonna go Yes. Yes. Well, I've said it when you're not being recorded a million times. But you're one of my favorite people to talk to and I'm very grateful for the way you and I go back and forth. I think it's I think it's it's hard to find people that I that I vibe with so well. And, and so I love that you're coming on. I love that you're gonna have more time. What's your website?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:17
Erica four site.com Alright, cool.

Scott Benner 1:09:21
And you have to be a California resident to to see you right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:24
Yes, yes. In person or telehealth,

Scott Benner 1:09:28
big state. Gotta be a couple of you over that's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:31
all. Well, thank you, Scott. I appreciate it.

Scott Benner 1:09:34
No, thank you so much. I'll talk to you soon.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:09:35
Okay, bye.

Scott Benner 1:09:46
First, let me thank Erica for coming back on the show and let you all know how excited I am to do a defining series with her about mental health and wellness. I'd also like to thank Omni pod makers of the Omni pod dash and the Omni pod promise And remind you to go to Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Do you need a meter? Of course you do. Do you have a good one? No might not. But if you had the Contour Next One blood glucose meter you would contour next one.com forward slash juicebox

I'd like to thank you so much for listening. Like you know, there's going to be another episode of The Juicebox Podcast coming up very soon. And remind you to check out the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, or find the show on Instagram, Tik Tok, Twitter, wherever Juicebox Podcast, go follow on the Insta gram machine, please. Thank you. I'm obviously a seasoned social media user. And you're not going to be wasting your time at all following me. You might be but just follow me anyway, please. In case I got something important to tell you. This is how I would tell you. You understand how social media works. I don't need to explain this. What else? Thanks so much for the recent reviews and ratings. They were terrific. Whoever left them good on you. Appreciate it. Glad you're loving the show. And that's pretty much it. podcast is cruising along it is doing really well. That is because of you guys. I don't say thank you enough for that. But I absolutely should be saying it every five seconds. The podcast downloads are they're just, there's it's crazy how many there are. And I I can't even take credit for the spread of the word. You guys do all that yourself. Word of mouth is how the show grows. And so I really appreciate it when you take time to tell someone else about it. Alright, again, I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. humbled that you guys listen. Thanks so much.

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#658 Body Dysmorphia and Type 1

Grace has type 1 diabetes and body dysmorphia.

You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - iHeart Radio -  Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 658 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today's show is with grace. She has type one diabetes, and also lives with body dysmorphia. I think this conversation is incredibly enlightening. I really appreciate Grace coming on the show and sharing her story with us. I want you to remember while you're listening, that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. I just got a note from the tea Wendy exchange. They are thrilled with how many of you filled out the survey last month in March, but they still need more of you. They need your answers to those simple questions. T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. All you need to be is a US resident who has type one or a US resident who is the caregiver of someone with type one, you go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. Join the registry fill out the survey takes less than 10 minutes. When you do it. You're helping people with type one diabetes, and you're supporting the podcast

this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo penne Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. today's podcast is also sponsored by Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom G six continuous glucose monitor, you may be eligible for a free 10 day trial of the Dexcom G six head to dexcom.com Ford slash juice box to learn more, or you can just get started.

Grace 2:03
My name is Grace. And I'm a type one diabetic.

Scott Benner 2:08
How old were you when you were diagnosed? Chris?

Grace 2:11
I was 18.

Scott Benner 2:14
And now you are

Grace 2:16

27. Okay,

Scott Benner 2:18
that was nine years ago?

Grace 2:19
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. doesn't feel like it.

Scott Benner 2:23
Yeah. Did you know the trick on that one? What do you mean? Well, you're 18 and then 27. So one and two are only one away? Oh, right. Yes, yes. And then the seven rolly one offs of Boom, just like that. Because if it was like you said, like, you know, 18 and 28. I'd be like, boom. 10 years? Yeah, I don't know. It's just

Grace 2:45
no, that's very true. I was actually doing the math last year on my birthday. And I was like, wow, I've only I've almost been a diabetic for 10 years. It's kind of crazy to think that I'm coming up on my double digits. Yeah. Anniversary.

Scott Benner 2:58
No, I know, we should really talk about that. And because I'm just, you know, I'm just, I'm trying to. Yeah, I'm boasting a little bit about my math.

Grace 3:07
So math skills, world.

Scott Benner 3:09
I just want people to notice how quickly I did that. Okay, so just about a decade diagnosed in your late teens. Can you tell me a little bit a little but what was that a little bit about being diagnosed?

Grace 3:22
Yeah, so I was in college, I was a resident assistant. So I lived on campus all year round, because I stayed for the summers as well. And I think it was my sophomore. It was in between my sophomore and junior year when I was starting to feel like really crappy. And I wasn't sure why I assumed it was because of my workload, and that I wasn't taking care of myself. I was sleeping all the time. And my friends like to put it in perspective, Grey's Anatomy at that point had 10 seasons, and I watched all 10 seasons because of how little I was doing with my time. So I was just constantly exhausted. And so because I was feeling crappy, and the term was over, I set up a doctor's appointment. And at the time, my aunt lived next door to us, and the morning of my appointment. My mom called her and was like, yeah, like Grace's just already asleep on the couch. It's not like her she's usually awake and ready to go. And so my aunt was like, Alright, I'm coming over just let me know. She throws up an ad that moment I literally was like Mom and I ran into the bathroom. My aunt ran next door, tested my blood sugar. It was unreadable on the little machine that she had. So they drove me to the ER right away. And of course with my aunt, being a nurse, I got in right away and I did all these things. And honestly, it was all a fog at that point. But yeah, I was in there for about a week. My I guess without eating my blood sugar was over 750. So, yeah, I was just chilling there. My agency at that point was over 16. So I was cruising this this this way for a while. Was that

Scott Benner 5:16
well, on your way? I have a couple. Yeah. Yeah, I think you might have answered one of them. But why? Why was your aunt so aware of you might throw up because she's a nurse?

Grace 5:26
Because she's a nurse. And I don't know, because I was asleep at the time. I don't know what my mom was saying to her on the phone that made her think along those lines. Yeah. But, you know, because my aunt lived next door, she obviously saw me. When I came home from school, and I had lost a lot of weight I lost over. I have to say, I lost over 35 pounds in three weeks. And I had started going to the gym. I know, it's so silly to even think like, in hindsight, I started going to the gym, two days a week. And when I started losing weight, I was like, wow, like, I'm, I'm doing this thing, I'm doing a great job. And that was not the reason. I think she saw that and all these other things. And something triggered in her brain.

Scott Benner 6:12
You were probably sitting in that gym thinking like, I'm gonna be rich, and I sell this idea to people. It's three situps. I just

Grace 6:22
got an incline for 10 minutes.

Scott Benner 6:24
You watch. You watch a little bit of Grey's back when you know, the cast was right. Yeah. And Arden told me the other day, you're on your way. She says I never finished Grey's Anatomy. I just started it over. And I was like, yeah,

Grace 6:38
yeah, I feel like there's two types of people, those who started from the beginning who just keep rewatching it until a certain point and those who are just jumping in now. It's just two different generations of watching grace.

Scott Benner 6:50
They don't understand any they don't know. I mean, I don't want to just tell you, but when O'Malley died, it really started to go downhill for me.

Grace 6:59
Oh my God, it was like the turning point of destruction in my brain. It was not great.

Scott Benner 7:04
I'm embarrassed to have been able to put that sentence together. Okay. So you get in there you have one, it's only nine years ago. So alright. Are you like, Is your family stunned that you have diabetes? Or they're like, Oh, this is what happened to and Gertrude like, you know, what level of right wareness did you get that type on?

Grace 7:28
Definitely stunned. Definitely stunned. I am the only one in my lineage at this point that we know of that has type one diabetes on both sides of my family. But what was really cool was that my uncle had had married a woman and she had type one. So my parents leaned on her a lot, which was really nice. But she also learned about diabetes so long ago, so our conversations don't exactly match up. And it's kind of funny because now she asks me about Omni pod and those things. So I actually got her switch from her Medtronic Omni pod. And so it's kind of like, again, with a generational thing. She was able to relay her experiences to my parents, which I think they benefited from. And then I get to have these conversations with her and we get to discuss and she'll talk to me about appeals so it's

Scott Benner 8:19
really cool. How to Write appeals. Yeah, yeah. What were you in college for? Like, you were there all year round? isn't like were you just a dork or were you doing something scientific or

Grace 8:29
so. So, I, I have to say I love living on campus because I had my own space. And when I lived on campus as a freshman, that was what my parents had said, they said you can live on campus will pay for you to live on campus for a year. But after that, you have to figure it out or you have to commute and so during my first year, I had my own RA and he was great. And he had said you know you might make a good resident assistant. So then I applied and because of that I just got kept living the lavish life of having an apartment for free.

Scott Benner 9:07
Better than not better than home. Right? You did. You sounds like you visited.

Grace 9:12
Like I did, I did visit but it was for like a weekend or my family. We used to do Friday night pizza night, every week when I was a kid. So I would come home for pizza night, stay on Saturday, go back up, and things like that. But I really did enjoy being on my own.

Scott Benner 9:28
Do you think it broke your mom's heart that you want to leave so badly?

Grace 9:31
I think she was devastated because when they moved me on campus my first year she kept asking, she was like, you want me to help you put this away? You want me to do this? Let me do that. And I had said to her I was like no, no, I got it mom, like I'm good. And my dad was the one who had to kind of like ask her out and I saw the heartbreak on her face.

Scott Benner 9:53
You got the first 18 years I'm gonna take the rest of them I need you to re write like I was

Grace 9:58
the test child. So I understand being sad that I'm no longer home because I'm definitely her right hand. But I very much enjoyed my independence. Gotcha.

Scott Benner 10:06
Any other brothers and sisters? Sounds like Yes.

Grace 10:10
Yes, I have two younger brothers that were each two years apart in age. So where we grew up really close together,

Scott Benner 10:20
you want me to do it very quickly for you? 25 and 23. Yes, very good. Very good. Thank you. I don't want to have to I won't bore you with how I did that. But pretty amazing. Any other auto immune in your family? We're even like you like, let me throw some out at you. hypothyroidism, celiac. A ton of allergies. Bipolar, like anything, anything? Yeah.

Grace 10:51
So we actually are a pretty healthy family. For a while. We thought my cousin had celiac, but she ended up just farting. It wasn't. Yeah, she had some other issues going on. But it wasn't celiac. Because at first I was like, Oh, great. Like, we're on the same team. But you know, we are not

Scott Benner 11:12
alone on an island that within your I am you know, I'm on my own island beyond your you know, beyond your Aunt aunt that has type one also, by marriage type. Yeah. Hi, Mary. Um, yeah. Is there anyone else in your life that has type one diabetes?

Grace 11:29
I have friends who have type one diabetes. Um, there's actually there's three of us. And we're actually all connected on my like fiance's fit friend side. So I actually went to college was one of the girls I'm friends with. And we went to college, we were in the same major, but I didn't know she had type one diabetes at the time. Okay, but now, after kind of getting back together after me, my fiance's friends, and she was a part of that group. Now, there's three of us who all have type one, and we're called, we call each other the diabetes. And yeah, we kind of lean on each other, which is

Scott Benner 12:11
really cool. Excellent. So what do they give you in the hospital? When you leave? You get pens.

Grace 12:17
So yeah, I was on pens for about a year. Actually. Probably shorter than that. Probably like eight months. I was on pens, and then I switched to Omni pod.

Scott Benner 12:26
Oh, that quickly. Alright. And you? Yeah, you use the CGM at all Yeah. Dexcom libre, anything like that.

Grace 12:32
Yep, I have the Dexcom. And I'm now on the dash systems. I have the Dexcom on the dash.

Scott Benner 12:36
Oh, are you thinking of doing Omni pod five when it arrives?

Grace 12:40
Um, it's, it's a thought. I'm not. I'm not one to like, so quickly switch, especially when I enjoy routine and the data is still fairly new to me. I only recently was able to get coverage for the dash because of the new health insurance that I got from my job. So thank you. Thank you. Um, the one good thing about having to switch jobs is that I got better insurance. So, um, yeah, I am still getting used to the dash. Okay. But, you know, we'll see what happens on the horizon.

Scott Benner 13:13
That's hilarious that you said that grace, for reasons you don't know. When they first made the Omni pod five. Do you know what they called it?

Grace 13:22
i I'm pretty sure I heard you speaking about it called the horizon.

Scott Benner 13:25
The horizon. Were you saying that? Were you? You funny? No,

Grace 13:28
I wasn't. I wasn't definitely like a 2020 recollection.

Scott Benner 13:32
Right? Because if you were doing that, that's some next level upon and I appreciate. I'm not that skilled, you know, get in there. Don't Don't knock it. You're doing great. So how long have you been listening to the podcast?

Grace 13:47
I've been listening for probably about two years, I have an hour commute to my job. So I listened about two hours every day on my way to and from work with sporadic breaks for music, but yeah, pretty regularly.

Scott Benner 14:01
It's okay with me. If you listen to music just as long as long as you consume as long as I come back. Two episodes a day. I think whatever you else you do in your free time is fine with me. You know, now, if you're only getting in one a day or a half, then I'd like you to if you just kind of rejigger your life and

Grace 14:20
rearrange, it's like to get that full second episode in there.

Scott Benner 14:23
I'm working pretty hard over here. Grace, and I would like to be paid back. Okay. So listening for about two years. How did you find out about it?

Grace 14:31
So that's funny. How did I find out about it? I think it was on Instagram. I saw a post that I follow a bunch of, I guess you could say celebrity diabetics, who are really just people who have their pages and content focused on diabetes. So someone had posted about it. They had shared something about how they were listening to an episode and it hit them really hard. So in a good way, obviously. And so then I looked it up. And I started from the beginning. And chugging along. I honestly don't even remember what number episode I'm on because I'm just I'm constantly listening to it. It feels like it's a stream of conversations, which is pretty cool.

Scott Benner 15:13
Oh, do you have any, like, confusion about knowing me? Do you have that going on? Do you ever talk to me anything like that in the car? Good for you look at you all rock solid in your head. Good job. So, what made you reach out? Because i Your topic is, I mean, I'm done chit chatting now because your topic is like utterly fascinating to me. And I just wondered, first, what made you want to share about it.

Grace 15:41
So I was listening to a bunch of the after dark episodes, because again, like the topic that we're gonna be discussing, it kind of it does fall on, like the mental health spectrum. So I was listening to a couple after dark episodes, and I was kind of almost like waiting for one. You know, I was like, Oh, I can't wait till they talk about something that I really can get into. And I just kept listening. And no one was saying anything about it. So

Scott Benner 16:10
I was like, are you here? Because I let you down.

Grace 16:13
Yes, I devastated I must represent

Scott Benner 16:17
idiots not going to follow through on the things I need to hear about. I'm gonna have to do it myself. Actually, I'll tell you by now. There's got to be 50 people who have been on this podcast who were on because they wrote to me and said, Do you have episodes on this topic? I go through this. And I said, Well, I don't but if you come on, then I will. And you know, that's how it happens on so I appreciate you doing this very much. I don't know anything about this. So can you explain explain the first time you had the feelings and what they were like and how it's either changed, morphed or stayed the same and etc please.

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With the Dexcom G six continuous glucose monitoring system, you can make knowledge your power. Now with the Dexcom G six CGM. You can make better diabetes treatment and better diabetes management decisions with zero finger sticks and no calibrations. The Dexcom G six lets us see your glucose numbers. With just a quick glance at your smart device or your receiver. You can get alerted when glucose levels are heading high or low high. Why did they do that or low and share your data with up to 10 followers and the Dexcom G six is covered by most insurance plans. If you'd like to get started today with a Dexcom go to dexcom.com Ford slash juice box. If you want glucose readings right there on your smart device, customizable alerts and alarms and no finger sticks. You want the Dexcom G six continuous glucose monitor, head over there right now and take the next step with Dexcom fill out a tiny bit of information and get the ball rolling. This afternoon we used Ardens Dexcom G six to navigate an impending low blood sugar, we were able to stop it with a little bit of food and keep from having a rebound high. That's just one way we use the Dexcom G six, you may find others. As a matter of fact, I know you will dexcom.com forward slash juicebox there are links to Dexcom G voc and all of the sponsors at Juicebox Podcast COMM And right there in your podcast that in the show notes. There's little shows in the podcast that they're clickable links, use them please. Alright, let's get back to grace. We've only scratched the surface the rest is incredible and upcoming. So I stopped talking so you can listen.

Grace 19:40
I live with by dysmorphia. And I it it started even before I had diabetes, so I was a competitive dancer. And I myself I'm just stronger, more muscular my family is you know As they say big boned, but I was never a fat child will say, but in comparison to other dancers I was on the outside will say, so I was always looking at myself as bigger than I actually was. And even to this day, I look at myself as bigger than I actually am. So when I got diabetes, and it was pre diagnosis, and I lost all that weight, I even then did not see the weight fall off, which is half of the issue that I had when it came to being diagnosed. Because in the hospital, they're like, Okay, how, like, have you lost any way recently? And I was like, No, I really haven't. And my mom and my brother were there. And they're like, yes, you have. And even like listening to my brother describe how my face looked. He was like, You looked so sunken in like, your skin was kind of just like hanging. I didn't see that in myself. I didn't see any of that, because I always perceived myself as a heavier girl.

Scott Benner 21:10
And I asked you, sorry, no, don't be sorry. Yeah, I just want to ask a question. Please say no, if it's not right, can I give context to your height and weight? Or would that be bothersome? No, absolutely.

Grace 21:20
I am five, seven, right. And I currently weigh 215.

Scott Benner 21:27
Okay, back when you were diagnosed?

Grace 21:31
I was five, seven, and I weighed 138.

Scott Benner 21:36
Okay. All right. And so that was prior to 138 was prior to the diagnosis or after the weight loss.

Grace 21:43
It was it so when I was weighed in the hospital, I was 127. So the 138 was the last time I had weighed myself prior to being diagnosed. I understand. Okay, because all my classmates, they're like, Oh, you're looking so great. And I was just obviously, being fueled by that positive, positive. I'll put in air quotes. Positive notion that oh, you lost weight. You look so great. So I wanted to see what my number was. And I was like, wow, like 138 That's like, fantastic. I've never seen this number even when I was in high school. But I never saw that number. I was like, wow, like the gym again. The gym. I'm doing so great. So

Scott Benner 22:24
see greatness came from because you saw a number shift. But what can you recall back? Did you look in the mirror and see a different, like a difference?

Grace 22:32
I didn't. And even now I I look back on pictures. Like if I'm scrolling to embarrass a friend for a birthday post or something and I scroll back through all of my photos. I don't see that change. I am the same body even even when I look at pictures where about my smallest pre diagnosis definitely sick. I don't see that.

Scott Benner 22:57
Okay, so as you scroll, is it I mean, let me just I'll jump for a second and then I'm gonna jump back again. Like did you seek some sort of treatment at some point? I did not didn't Okay, I did not. So when you scroll through those pictures, do you go like is there something that happens in your brain? Do you see yourself and think Oh, there I am I look terrible. There I am I look terrible. And no matter if you're you know what weight or health situation you're in, like sunken in face not sunken in about to find out you have diabetes, you know, using insulin? Is it all just the same feeling when you see yourself over and over again?

Grace 23:31
Yeah, I have to say, doesn't matter what picture I'm looking at, if I'm not a child looking at like, Baby young child pictures, every picture that I've taken myself, there's always that feeling of okay, you know, and thankfully, I have an amazing therapist now who I talk with her very often about this, because for a lot of people when it comes to body dysmorphia, because there's a large number of people who actively and know that they suffer from body dysmorphia. But a large population of people on this planet suffer from it in some way shape or form on like a minor scale. And after my therapist was like sharing that information with me, it helps me recognize that people who I perceive as perfect also have their own issues obviously with like how they look and their bodies. And so I have to kind of step away from that, oh, I want to become that or I want to do that right?

Scott Benner 24:31
I imagine so I imagine that that it can go in either direction as well too Right? Like you could see yourself at a I don't I don't know how to put it actually you're gonna have to excuse me because I don't know the terminology around this but let's just say you're you're in an unhealthy weight and you don't see yourself that way. You could just look at them look at them and be like I'm doing well you know and then yeah, you know, but be 3040 pounds overweight, and it actually be impacting yourself but you don't allow yourself to see that. So that's sort of the that's the same idea. It's just not in the, in the direction that we think of it when we like usually what we think is, I mean, don't you? I'm generalizing now right. But when when I hear body dysmorphia, I think of I mean, honestly, I think of a person who's, you know, who looks better than they feel they look, I guess, the simple way that I think of it, do you think that's accurate?

Grace 25:26
No, yeah, that's definitely an accurate and probably the more perceived understanding of body dysmorphia is from the, let's say, let's use like a general like an athlete who sees himself as not in their actual body they see themselves as overweight or not fit or something like that. But it does go the other way where there are individuals who have body dysmorphia, where they are larger or they have more weight, but they see themselves in a younger and not younger in a lighter frame, which again, could be detrimental to their health and I I can't speak from experience because that's not the body dysmorphia that I experienced. But there are people out there that I've seen on these I don't want to say chat rooms but like on these Facebook groups that I follow that talk about this there are groups out there who are like oh, just went to the doctor's office and they said this on a third but I don't see it I guess I'll discuss this in therapy this week. You know, kind of a thing where there are things that impact your health, when you are at a heavier weight things that have to do with like circulatory system and blood pressure and all that which will have an out lasting effect on your health. So yeah, it definitely does does go both ways. I'm gonna

Scott Benner 26:42
do something a little boring for a second, but this is from Hopkins. medicine.org Okay, Body Dysmorphia is a mental health problem. If you have BDD, you may be so upset about the appearance of your body that it gets in the way of your inability to live normally. Many of us have what we think are flaws in our appearance. But if you have BDD, your reaction to this flaw may become overwhelming. You may find that negative thoughts about your body are hard to control. You may even spend hours each day worrying about how you look, your thinking can become so negative and persistent. You may think about suicide at times. And then it says that the cause of body dysmorphia, excuse me the cause of body dysmorphic disorder is thought to be a combustion of environmental, psychological and biological factors. Bullying or teasing may create or foster the feelings of inadequacy, shame or fear of ridicule. So, did you ever feel bullied? Or did the situation where you were at dance allow you to bully yourself if that makes sense?

Grace 27:43
Yeah, definitely a. I am my own bully kind of way. Um, I had to say growing up in grade school, I had amazing friends. My school was like looking back now I know, being an educator myself now that it wasn't this way. But it was literally a fairy tale. I had amazing friends. Everyone was friendly. We always everyone played together. So I never got that external pressure or external commentary on myself, but it was always internal.

Scott Benner 28:14
Okay. I'm gonna give you a little more from this website, just because I think it's interesting. It says that this affects women and men equally. They think that factors contributing could be family history of this, or some similar mental disorder. abnormal levels of a brain chemical doesn't say which one, your personality type or life experiences. Is there any Has anyone else in your family come? Like? I guess the question first is are you very open within your family about this?

Grace 28:45
Um, I wouldn't say that I've said to my family. Oh, yeah, I suffer from body dysmorphia, or I live with body dysmorphia. I've never gone out and said something like that, but my younger cousin and I we are very similar. And she recently had an incident where she bought a really cheap pair of pants from h&m, if anyone's looking for jeans, don't buy them from h&m. But she bought them and she went to bend down to play with the family dog and her pants ripped. And I on her face, I literally saw the emotion that I feel inside when I'm about to bend down to do something, the fear and the realization that my biggest fear literally just happened. Um, so I know that I'm not the only one in the family who, who experiences these types of feelings, but no one really talks about it at all, which is the hard part.

Scott Benner 29:47
Yeah. Is it like an omnipresent thing. You open your eyes in the morning and think I don't like the way I look or is it you have to See yourself? Or do you have to be put in one of those situations where like, Oh God, I'm about to reach over my head, my stomach's gonna stick out of the shirt like this, like, how does it present itself to you?

Grace 30:09
For me, when I wake up in the morning, I don't feel anything, but when inside when I'm starting to get dressed, that's when I start to be overwhelmed by the thoughts. And so I try my best to set up my outfits the night before, because at that point, I'm so exhausted, that I'm literally just putting together clothes that I know fit me and that I know, look good, because I've worn them in the past. Because if I wait until the morning of and I'm in a rush, or if I'm running a little bit behind, then it becomes this entire event. And so a self strategy of mine is to try and do that. Okay, so ahead of time, I'm not, you know, dealing with that issue.

Scott Benner 30:52
Yeah. So if, if, if you, I see what you're saying. So you pick out the clothes when you're tired, and being tired kind of stops you from having the thoughts as much I guess. And then in the morning, because the outfits been chosen. You don't, you don't go through the same thought process as you would when you're standing in front of the closet.

Grace 31:12
Right? Cuz as soon as I stand in front of the closet, and I have all of my options there and I'm awake, and I'm ready to move. Then my brain goes, Oh, I can wear that. Oh, actually, I can't because I hate when this happens, or I don't know, this crap, I don't think

Scott Benner 31:27
grabs my stomach. You can see my arms and this like that kind of stuff goes like Yeah. Okay. And yeah. And but then where does it go from there? Because I mean, I'm not comparing but I've stood in front of clothing. Well, I can't wear that. And but I don't then feel badly about myself afterwards. So does it right, viral? How does that what happens after when it all starts? Where does it go?

Grace 31:50
It is definitely a spiral. So I would say I have created a system for myself for when it comes to work attire, but God forbid we're going out or we're socializing with friends or things like that. And I, I have to then go outside of what I'll call like my work capsule wardrobe. It is a entire event, there have been a handful of times where I've, where I've literally just sat on the bed, my fiance's come in and she's like, we're not going our way. And I'll be like, you can go, but I'm not going. Which is when it becomes the issue where that now it's impacting. It's impacting my life and my daily experiences and things such as that.

Scott Benner 32:33
Okay. Do you have any other thing going on? Are you Would you consider yourself to be depressed or anxious or anything like that?

Grace 32:41
Yes, I'm also I also have depression, which runs in my family. So I am working on that as well. Um, so there are other things, there are other mental health factors, such as that. So

Scott Benner 32:56
this is personal. But isn't it funny, where the line gets drawn in my head on my phone, and I'm gonna ask a person you've been talking for 20 minutes. I'm like, oh, but this isn't too personal. I just had that same experience. You know, it's gonna be in an after dark, I'll let you find it. You'll enjoy it. So you're with somebody. Right? So does the fact that they think you're attractive? Not help?

Grace 33:25
It does not register at all?

Scott Benner 33:27
Okay. at all to then what happens at sexy time? Do you lay there like, Oh, God, like, Please let this end? She can see me or like, I don't have I don't what happens, I guess.

Grace 33:39
Yeah. So. So interestingly enough, so now my fiancee is very loving. She is very caring of me. She she goes out of her way to tell me what she sees in me of me what she thinks of me and like my body and everything. But anytime we're going to get intimate. All lights have to be off. I'm already in bed. I'm underneath the covers, like, I don't want you to look at me. Which has been a topic of conversation for us, because she obviously doesn't see what my what my vision of myself is. And no matter how many times I try to describe it. It's something that is hard to compute. For another person who's

Scott Benner 34:30
looking at me, yeah, your dog can't even understand it.

Grace 34:33
I know. She's so bad. I'm sure the mailman is literally standing outside. She's so bad.

Scott Benner 34:40
I think the one of the things that it brings in and that makes it so difficult is if the other person is looking at you and being like I very attracted to you. So and you're Yeah, you're keeping that from me. I guess it could feel like on some level and then they could start feeling impacted by it. Like there's something up with them and that's why you won't share yourself Yeah,

Grace 35:00
yes. And we have to have that conversation as well, because I don't initiate any form of intimacy like that. Because again, how I feel about myself. So we've had to have a conversation where I've had to share with her like, Yes, I find you attractive. I love you, I want to do this, but I am not comfortable with myself to do this. Okay, so then it does it impacts her own mental understanding of Okay, now, am I on attractive? Does she not love me in my body, which is not the case. It's all it's all my issue. But again, bleeding into that type of scenario, you know,

Scott Benner 35:38
does it impact like, even functionally, are there positions you won't get into or things you won't do? Just because of how you feel like your body is going to look in that situation?

Grace 35:49
Yeah, I, I have to say, it's not. I haven't experienced anything like that. Like, I'll definitely hesitate. But then she'd be like, come on, like, let's just try it. So it's definitely there is still hesitation and there is still concern and like, self awareness of okay, how am I gonna look in this position? Yeah. But,

Scott Benner 36:17
sorry, I have another question. This one's gonna. This one's gonna sound like less than tactful, probably. But I genuinely want to know, this might be a male perspective thing. I have no idea we're gonna find out in a second. Is there a part in the process where you just tip over the edge and you're having such a good time? It goes away? Like can you ever like up like, not that you can let go of it? But you know what? I mean, do you ever get like, right? To a point where you're just like, I would do this in front of my mom in the mall? I don't care this very good.

Grace 36:47
Um, I have to say, if if I'm sober. No. If there's alcohol involved, or some other type of, you know, elite, something that will alleviate the focus from me, then yes, I'm able to kind of have that. I want I don't want to say out of body experience, but it definitely feels like that because I'm not thinking about myself.

Scott Benner 37:09
Okay, Chris, did we find her? Do we find your line? Did you just stop yourself from saying if I'm Hi? Hi, I would never I was like, Oh, this girl was very open right till she got the weight and she's like, I'm not saying that.

Grace 37:26
It's not It's not often I'm more of a gummies girl like I won't like smoke it so much. But I am I am a gummy. I like eating gummies and treats and such so if it's in there, I'm not gonna say

Scott Benner 37:40
no, I can I say girlfriend or fiance doesn't matter to you know doesn't matter. So if she sees you grab a gummy Do you think she like run and change the sheets and everything?

Grace 37:51
This is a high probability starts

Scott Benner 37:53
throwing light bulbs out of the out of the ceiling.

Grace 37:55
Yeah. turn all the lights off. Make sure the sheets are ready but a little corner so Grayson, just slide right in. Yeah,

Scott Benner 38:01
picture phone puts it on private, she starts texting friends. It's happening. Leave me alone.

Grace 38:09
No one contact me until I reach out, please.

Scott Benner 38:12
Oh my god, can I ask you a question that's completely disconnected of all this? Yes. How great is it to be in a same sex relationship because I assumed your periods have linked up by now. So the same time that nobody wants to have sex, nobody else wants to have sex, he must be amazing.

Grace 38:27
Hey, it's, it's quite great. We are we're pretty synced off by a few days. So when I start, she knows it's coming. And she's the baby out of the two of us where she will, she will milk it until the cow is dry. She will complain and all this jazz. So as soon as I get mine, I'm like, Hey, prepare yourself, because we call it we call it Nellie. So we can talk about it. And public will be like, oh, is Nelly coming this week or is now like coming next week? I'll be like, now he's coming for you. I'm just

Scott Benner 38:59
thinking like, how great must it be to like, not feel sick to your stomach or something or, you know, just blot and know, just intrinsically, your partner's not going to call it you right now because she's in the same exact situation. Whereas in my scenario, I'm like, wow, the boobs are way rounder now than they usually are. And then she's like, I don't feel good. I'm like I'm just saying. It seems like a match made in heaven is what I'm getting at. Yeah, that's excellent. We have our we have our

Grace 39:29
ritual of murder mysteries are crashing into some crazy series. And then we go back to our normal routine until next month.

Scott Benner 39:39
Murders in the building on Hulu. So I

Grace 39:42
haven't watched it yet. It's on my watch list. And she hasn't started yet because I told her I wanted to watch it. So it's fun.

Scott Benner 39:51
I enjoyed it. I really enjoy Steve Martin and me too. I love him was very good. And Selena Gomez didn't bother me so I thought it was her Nice. She was good. I there was part of me that was like, I don't want to watch this Wizards of Waverly girl. She was She did a good job. So yeah,

Grace 40:09
I haven't seen Selena Gomez in any shows like, since with Wizards of Waverly Place, I haven't seen any of her other movies. So I have no real perception of her acting skills. So this is a good review.

Scott Benner 40:21
Thank you. You'll be good. You'll you'll enjoy it. I am and I was also just a little mesmerized and proud of myself when I pulled the Wizards of Waverly Place reference out. As I was saying it I was a little like, is this a Jake and Josh thing, and I'm getting this wrong? So hey, anyway, it's

Grace 40:37
channel who are the other actors? What is it called?

Scott Benner 40:40
So moving the kind of like the, the sexual problems into the real world? Do you have things you avoid doing in your day that people don't know about? But you're very aware about? Like, How are you coping? In real life? So?

Grace 40:56
So it's actually interesting you say that, so?

Scott Benner 41:00
I'm amazing at this grace, what do you I mean,

Grace 41:03
you are a professional what was I think?

Scott Benner 41:07
Here's what I knew about body dysmorphia five seconds ago, there's a person tangentially in my life, who I think is having trouble with this. And I don't know what to do for them. And, and other than that, besides me, you know, fooling myself into thinking I don't need loot need to lose weight at a couple points in my lifetime. I don't have any real like connection with the idea. Yeah. So I'm doing an amazing job understanding all this plus, I got you to talk about Lady sex, which I think people are gonna love. You know, and I'm telling Allison, I'm doing really great, but but let's just stop in the middle. So I can congratulate myself.

Grace 41:51
We always need that moment to pat ourselves on the

Scott Benner 41:53
back. Well, joking aside, like, you know, again, for 30 seconds, I'll turn this around. But if you ever want to, like have pressure, put yourself into a scenario where you're having a conversation with people, it's going to be recorded, and then heard by a lot of people. And you don't know what the, you're talking about this. So you know, I'm not without risk here to let's just say, I could come off, like at some point, and I'm always gonna share the episodes with you. So if I sound like an idiot, or sounds like I say something stupid. I felt like I'm cutting it out. You just Yes. And then going, Oh, my God, this. Why do I listen to this podcast? I didn't know what to ask this girl. Right. Anyway, I'm giving myself a lot of credit. I think I'm doing good. You're doing great. By the way. Is there any apprehension about talking about it?

Grace 42:44
Um, not so much. Because I'm kind of like, taking this meeting as sort of like a therapy session. That's kind of how I walked into it so that I didn't have any reservations. You know, I hear that I went into it. Like, pretending I was talking to somebody that I've never met. That I've only heard to my, my car stereo,

Scott Benner 43:06
then just tell them? Yeah, yeah, half an hour. I got you naked.

Grace 43:10
So yeah, that's quite impressive.

Scott Benner 43:13
You're way too easy grace. Alright, so Alright, so in your regular life, those things that we kind of like were able to see. Because, I mean, honestly, because making it into a sexual situation simplifies it, but does anything about that carry into your regular life?

Grace 43:30
I think that. So I'm an educator. So I work with sixth graders. And I think that in my every day, if I see other staff wearing something that I really like, I will automatically be like, Oh, but you could never wear that. Because when so with my job, we have like a very strict dress code. And sometimes it's hard to find things that I actually am like, Okay, I could wear this to work and not think about the slew of issues that I would foresee my body having with this specific garment. And as soon as I see someone else in something that I would love to wear, but I'm not confident or I don't feel like I would even look good or even fit in it. Or if it would just accentuate something that I'm trying to hide automatically. It's like everything goes down the toilet, and I'm spiraling with it. And I have to kind of reset my brain. So I'm going to go into the classroom. I'm like, Okay, we're not talking about this anymore. So there's a lot of compartmentalizing in my life when it comes to that. But do

Scott Benner 44:41
I'm thinking back on being younger and being at school, and I can't remember the woman's name, but I remember torturing as a group, you know, it wasn't just me. It was a pitchforks and pitchforks kind of thing. But we taught her to substitute teacher to the point where she cried. Oh, I'm looking back. I'm starting to feel About About up, I'm trying to be honest grace. Does that, like has that like, what would happen if a kid called you short, fat? ugly, stupid? Like, what if they leaned into you on something like that? Do you think you'd crumble in front of them? Or do you think you could hold it together like,

Grace 45:18
so I have a pretty tough exterior when it comes to my students. So a little background, I work in a deaf school. So I work with a smaller group of students than a typical public classroom. So I have 18, in comparison to other schools where they're like, high 20s, low 30s. So I have a pretty close relationship with a majority of my students, I have yet to come across a single one who would say something maliciously, like that. If it were to be the case, then I feel like I would kind of put on my like, tough face and have that conversation with them. But then maybe on my drive home, I would be obsessed with that, with that thought in that comment, and possibly take something out of that capsule wardrobe that I have for work.

Scott Benner 46:18
Gotcha. Talk about the obsessed part, like, how long would it last? What would it entail? Do you ever have thoughts of suicide, like the website talked about?

Grace 46:28
So I've never had thoughts of suicide myself. Um, so I have to say I'm grateful for that. But with the obsessiveness, it can last a very long time. Like an example, I had a shirt that I used to wear in college that I don't know, it wasn't like a professional shirt, it was something that I would wear if I wanted to look nice when I was going out. But I would say it was like my comfort shirt, nothing could go wrong with that shirt. And I remember someone had made a comment about how I always wear that shirt is the only shirt they ever seen you wearing and how it starting to look worn out. And it doesn't look as good as it used to. And automatically that shirt went in the garbage. And I thought about that comment every time I went out since it was just like something like, I don't even have the shirt anymore. And I'm still thinking about oh, like, I can't keep wearing this item because it's going to be Oh, you against me?

Scott Benner 47:30
No. So you start thinking like even the stuff you like now I can't overwhelm because it'll get worn out and then I'll have to throw it away. So now you're not and I'm gonna lose that option. See? Oh, see you're not wearing it to save it to keep the option but it doesn't help you functionally. Right? Hmm. Oh, you poor thing. Okay. Oh, yeah. That's terrible. Do you speak? I don't know if I'm doing this right. ASL. Do I say do I ask if you speak ASL? Or do I?

Grace 47:58
So I, I use ASL. I am fluent in ASL. And I teach in sign language and communicative my students through sign and my friends through sign. So it is a it actually, funnily enough, it has an impact on my sugars. If I am working, my sugars are stable. But if I'm like distance learning, like I am this week, my sugars are much higher, because I'm not putting as much effort into my day, if that makes sense. I would

Scott Benner 48:25
like to see you up your Basal when you're when you're working without from home. Yeah, yep. Because you're saying you're up and moving and signing. So you're literally active. And so yeah, you need less insulin because of that. Yeah, I wish I would have known about this when we were making the variable season series, I definitely would have felt was a variable. That's just really interesting. Yeah, yeah, do the kids know you have type one.

Grace 48:50
So some of them do. So interestingly enough, the way that my class is set up is that my co teacher teaches social plays, and I teach science. So fifth grade, we talk about the body and the systems of the body. So when we talk about the immune system, and things like that, the textbook mentions diabetes and that's kind of like when we use that half hour to learn about diabetes the CO teacher and I kind of work that out because I am a living example of an autoimmune disease. So having that conversation with them most of them understand my past years they really had a better grasp on it then this year's but again, with distance learning everyone's a little behind and takes more time. So I Yeah, but it's been pretty cool.

Scott Benner 49:37
I feel so bad for those kids. Because if they can't, they can't hide on distance learning like the kids who can hear can because if you have to sign then you have to be visible in the camera. The other kids just hot, right? Yeah, exactly. You just see that. Yeah, they just showed the other day. Arden said to me, I slept through a class. I was like, yeah, she Yeah, she's like Bed learning. And I was like, yes. We call it beds. And it's back again, after New Years. I just got the email as you and I were sitting down there going back again. So,

Grace 50:14
yeah, we're going back on the 18th. And my students definitely do better when they're in person, as many students do. But when they're home, obviously, there's other distractions. So I'm very excited to be back. And my kids miss it, because a lot of them this, like school is their only place where they have seamless communication. So they're very excited to come back. Yeah, do

Scott Benner 50:35
some of them live in homes where they can't communicate with people in their homes?

Grace 50:39
Yeah, I actually have a lot of students who are from Spanish speaking families. So not only is there a written language barrier, but there's also the fact that some families don't sign with their or they don't have in depth understanding of ASL. So they're not able to fully communicate with them. So

Scott Benner 50:58
you just blew my mind is ASL one standard language. So if I come from a Spanish speaking household, or I come from a French speaking household, we both do the same ASL.

Grace 51:08
So no, so every country has their own sign their own sign language, so sorry, I'm an idiot. Yeah, no, no, you're totally fine. It's actually a huge misnomer that, you know, the thought that sign language is universal. It actually isn't, which is pretty, pretty crazy. Um, so if I were to go to another country, I may not be able to communicate with the deaf community there because we're using two different types of sign language. Yeah.

Scott Benner 51:40
All right. So Grace, like I'm looking at a photo of you right now. Yeah, zooming in, they get popped up. I have a silly photo, you have a nice photo, it's fine. And if I said to you right now, just out of left field, if I said, Grace, I see your picture. You're very pretty. What's your first reaction to that statement? Oh, okay. Thank you. You guys like you can, but do you believe it? Are you just being polite? I'm being polite. Okay. So what are the words that pop into your head when I say that? No. Just like that. Okay. Yeah. So

Grace 52:15
you're like, he's being nice. He's trying to be nice. I say, How did

Scott Benner 52:19
you end up with a partner then? Like, how did you believe somebody enough like to date them?

Grace 52:26
So we met in a very interesting class in college called death in perspective, so not death with enough death like th at the end. And that class, it really forced us to be vulnerable and share really intimate experiences of ours. And because we were in that class, it was kind of as if there were no more secrets. We we spent a lot of time together. And after we both graduated, we were both single, and we kind of just met up as if no time had passed. So the comfortability was there that there's nothing I have nothing to hide from her. Okay. There's no There's no more secrets. She knows. Basically, everything. surface level.

Scott Benner 53:20
So yeah, you've um, again, I'm doing my buddy. Let's keep in mind, I'm 50 and straight, but you've always you've always been gay.

Grace 53:29
So I had a boyfriend in high school. Um, but that was it.

Scott Benner 53:36
You are not how they would refer as you are not gold star that is that

Grace 53:39
I am not gold star. Look at you knowing your term pretty

Scott Benner 53:43
impressed. I know. Better than when I knew how long you had diabetes after doing

Grace 53:52
lovely. Yeah, no, I am not gold star.

Scott Benner 53:55
I'll let people look that up on their own. I'm not explaining everything to you people. Yeah. Let's just say Scott knows things. That's all. Yeah, I'm old. But I'm keeping

Unknown Speaker 54:04
up. You're keeping up you got it.

Scott Benner 54:08
Meanwhile, My knee hurts for three weeks. I don't know why. I didn't do anything to it. I just woke up one day. Like what is wrong with me?

Grace 54:17
Right, my ankles the same way. I have no idea what happened to it but is tweaking like no other Kelly Kelly's

Scott Benner 54:22
like, are you gonna get a knee replacement? She's like, Oh, God, am I gonna have to take care of you? And I was like, Oh my God, I hope not. I just don't want to I feel she could leave me in a room to die is my concern. Like if I couldn't get around, like what would stop her from just not bringing food and water? Right? She'd be like, Oh, I can finally get this insurance money and get started again with a guy I really like.

Grace 54:43
Right, right. I can build a whole new life for myself. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 54:47
mean, it's not too late to get away from this idiot. Okay. I think this is not me wrapping up with you. It's me. It's me making sure like, is there something I'm not asking you I should be.

Grace 55:02
So not so much asking. But so my body dysmorphia has had a huge play and how I handled my blood sugars in the past. So I'm not trying to like write the script for anyone here. But if, like, obviously, if your sugars are higher, you're not as controlled, your body will then start using its own self to kind of fuel you know what I mean? So in the beginning, when I was like, oh, like, I lost all this weight, everyone on the outside is like, wow, like, you look great, I want to maintain this, I was not keeping my sugars in check, because it meant that my body weight number was going to be lower.

Scott Benner 55:45
So you were exercising the diet bulimia on purpose, kind of thing.

Grace 55:50
To an extent, I wouldn't say diet bulimia, because I wasn't doing excess exercising, but I was not. Um, you were keeping your butt was not going to cover the sugars coming in. Okay,

Scott Benner 56:05
so you kept your blood sugar high on purpose, because you knew would keep your body weight down? Correct? Correct. But you you described your weight now versus your weight then, like nine years ago, like, like, pretty differently. So what are you doing or not doing now? Like that? Like, I don't know, how are you living now that you weren't living then?

Grace 56:25
Yeah, um, I, I have a endocrinologist who is extremely, extremely supportive. But she also yells at me in a very supportive way to get my sugars in check. And like to kind of remind me that, you know, having high blood sugars is not good for a long, sustained health, healthy life. And with the things that I'm actively working on with my relationship with my job with my schooling, I want to be around long enough and healthy enough to be able to continue doing them so that all of this isn't to waste. So she yells at me when she's like, you know, right around the holidays, I'm always higher, because I am lazy, or I don't calculate a right amount, or I eat more than I'm supposed to, or whatnot. And she'll yell at me be like, was this you on purpose? Or was this an accident? Okay. And so she will, she will check me when she sees high numbers for long periods of time. And she'll kind of guilt trip isn't the right word, but it definitely makes me think about, alright, like, obviously, that wasn't a good, a good thing, especially if it was on purpose is not on purpose nearly as often anymore. But it definitely wasn't the beginning, where she was like, this is on purpose, I can see that there's a trend here you're thinking about December 3, so

Scott Benner 57:46
yeah, so if your weight hits a number, then you stop using as much insulin to try to drop the weight.

Grace 57:52
Right, she and she noticed that trend, I would say probably within the first year of us being together, and she's like, Alright, we're gonna nip this in the bud. So this doesn't go forward. So yeah, I'm very fortunate that I have someone who is medically aware and also, in tune with me enough to be able to make the right comments. That'll just make me see things a little bit differently. So I'm on the right track again.

Scott Benner 58:16
Okay, I'm gonna ask you a couple probing questions. If I make you uncomfortable, you'll tell me. So you, I hate to use them. But you. I mean, you just described your weight as probably being 80 pounds heavier than when you were diagnosed earlier. Yeah, about right. Okay. So how long after diagnosis? Were you like actively keeping your weight down by not giving yourself insulin? And then at what point? Did you start using more? And is your like, what do you attribute your weight increase to?

Grace 58:50
Yeah, so I would say, the first year after diagnosis, I was very good about keeping my numbers in check doing what I was supposed to. Because I was living with my parents at the time. And they were, you know, they were asking their questions. So I, again, wanting to be the perfect golden Angel, child firstborn that I am. I was like, no, no, everything's great. Like, everything's perfect. And then I noticed the weight gain. So it was my second year, I would say, the second year and a half, that I was like, Ooh, like I can, I can play with this. And then I'd lie to my parents essentially, and fudge my numbers, but like, no, they're great. When in fact, they were much higher, because then the weight loss was happening again, and I was going down that same trail that I was prior, um, and then switched doctors. She noticed the trend about a year in so I would say it took about three years for a professional to recognize the issue and look at all the facts and be like, okay, like, we're gonna work on this mentally as well as physically. Um, So now, the weight gain is definitely the waking that I have now is more attributed to the fact that I'm not going to the gym anymore. I, I am a full time teacher and a full time student. So I'm in classes all night. And I only have time on weekends to really do things to see family and friends. So I'm at this point, the gym is not a priority for me. So a lot of the weight gain I think definitely comes from the fact that I don't have a routine and I'm, you know, with COVID, we were so sedentary. So we had all that going for us, in a way. So yeah, that's kind of where I'm at right now. And it's not where I want to be. But I'm definitely I have the support team enough to go about it the right way. So, are you looking forward to that?

Scott Benner 1:00:54
Are you um, I have a question that I'm I'm skipping, which I'll get back to in a second. I'm not sure. How are you comfortable telling me what your agency is currently?

Grace 1:01:05
Yeah, so my agency right now is a 6.4.

Scott Benner 1:01:09
You have a ton of lows, or No?

Grace 1:01:12
Um, I It's kind of weird. It. It really depends on the day like what's happening, but I have experienced more lows. Recently, but I think it's just because I'm like over calculating or overcompensating and thinking I'm gonna eat more when I'm not,

Scott Benner 1:01:29
but it's not like your last day once he was 7.9? This one? 6.4? Correct. Okay, correct. From stability, okay. All right. I'm not sure if this is okay. We you know what, it's over now. Like, I mean, just you're here, you've, you've opened yourself up, this is your fault. So yeah. Are you over eating? Are you eating? Are you eating things that are like incredibly unhealthy.

Grace 1:02:00
So not on a regular basis. But I do have an issue with also like sneaking food. So if there are treats in the house, I will sneak treats and then eat them and try to get rid of the evidence. And then I'll do it again, because I got away with it. So there is a amount of over eating or not eating the right things, which is hilarious, because on the outside, it's like, oh, I'm meal prep. And I have this on the third. And I have my containers and everything's measured and weighed out because my my fiance is big into the gym, and she's big into working out and eating right. So we have this meal plan, that's great. But because we're not the only ones who live in this house, there are also treats here that when I was living on my own, I didn't have that issue because I just never bought them. But I do sneak sneak food

Scott Benner 1:02:56
for these motherfuckers that put treats around the house and what can we

Grace 1:03:00
say? No, trying to get rid of them. But before

Scott Benner 1:03:06
I see what you're getting at, have you so I don't know if this is actually like I was just gonna say I don't know if this is like gonna be triggering for me to ask you. But I think we're beyond that. So have you considered an intermittent fasting schedule.

Grace 1:03:20
So I, I have tried intermittent fasting and I'm definitely better when I'm on my routine, meaning waking up, going to work going to work, not just like sitting at my desk, going to work coming back going to class, like I'm much better with that. Because then my eating times results around my availability to eat like my intermittent fasting is after our first period when the kids come back, and then I finish as soon as they get home from work around like 430 I'm able to eat by five before I go into class. So I have that intermittent window, but when I'm home home distance learning, teaching and like all that jazz, I It's like a free for all. Yeah, so there's no I can go anytime that the kids are independent working or a bathroom break or a water break. I get a break. So I go downstairs and I see what's what's happening in there. What's in the cabinets. And yeah,

Scott Benner 1:04:12
gotcha. Okay. I mean, I'm not trying to say that there's some simple fix. I'm just trying to put context to it. Like, you know, my Oh, yeah. My real feeling here is that I don't I mean, I don't know how people deal with stuff like this. You know, the guy the I don't know what you do you I mean, you're doing talk therapy right now. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Let's psychologist. Yes. Okay. May I suggest bit just based on the people I've spoken to in the past? Move up to a psychiatrist. Might be

Grace 1:04:44
Well, I have I have that for depression. I have a psychiatrist who does his depression meds but we haven't done anything for anything else yet.

Scott Benner 1:04:52
So I say do the depression medication put weight on or make it harder to lose weight?

Grace 1:04:58
Um, I don't think so. Um, I haven't like done a lot of deep research about that specifically because again, like, on the side of the bottle, it has all those, you know, side effects or whatever. But I don't I didn't see a correlation between my weight increase to when I started taking those meds, okay?

Scott Benner 1:05:19
Do you want to exercise? Or is it not something that pops into your head?

Grace 1:05:27
I am lazy in nature. So I am not extremely excited when it comes to going to the gym. I know it's good for me. And I've seen better sugar levels and not as many highs and lows when I'm doing it. So there's that motivation behind it. But if I was a full, typical healthy person, I wouldn't be the the person to just run into the gym and enjoy it. I think the only form of enjoyment was when I was dancing when I was younger, because that's you're working out without thinking about it cuz you're just having a good time. Do you need to do something like that?

Scott Benner 1:06:01
Are you more comfortable? Like this is kind of these are gonna sound like they don't go together. But because you don't see yourself? Well, no matter what. Is this just where you're more comfortable? Is it like, is there any chances it's a decision? Are you trying to match your body to how you feel like I don't know. Like, I don't know what I'm asking you. I'm literally rambling.

Grace 1:06:23
Yeah, but that's actually no, I see the path that you're on. I feel like, that's actually a really good theory to test because if I feel like crap, then I don't do as much because I am crap, basically. And then if I were to work out, but still feel like crap, it's like, well, what's the point? Cuz I feel like crap.

Scott Benner 1:06:43
Yeah, you're putting in all this work, but there's no reward because you're gonna feel like this, whether you weigh 100 pounds or 200 pounds.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:50
Right? Right.

Scott Benner 1:06:52
I could be incredibly, very grace. Actually, yeah, you should send me a copay for this. I think I'm gonna take,

Grace 1:06:58
you know, I should I should.

Scott Benner 1:07:03
I just don't know like that. And there's one other like, indelicate question that I don't know how to ask. And I'm not sure if I'm gonna sound like I'm, I'm not sure how I'm gonna sound when I ask it. And it's What's stopping me? Because I don't have any ill intention with it. It's just, it's an observation. Yeah, I'm really trying. I mean, if I don't know if I'm going to let me drink water. Okay. I have friends who are lesbians. And sometimes I feel like one person in the partnership puts on weight to appear more masculine. Mm hmm. Do I do it? I don't know what I just did. Like, I know

Grace 1:07:49
what you're saying. Okay. Um, so actually, between the two of us, my fiance's the more masculine one and on the more feminine one. So, like, examples as a wedding, she wears a suit, and I wear a dress. So it's not so much that I'm putting on the weight to appear more masculine, because that's not the quote unquote, look, that or the, the, for lack of better term role that I portray.

Scott Benner 1:08:18
Okay. Um, hold on, I gotta clear my throat, I apologize. Yeah. I don't think this is the end, but it's close.

Grace 1:08:29
It's like the coffee's a signal.

Scott Benner 1:08:33
So the reason I asked is just because while I'm doing this, I kind of have myself in a bunch of different head spaces. And one of them is I'm trying to think about what the people listening are thinking. And it's just yeah, I'm not gonna say it's obvious, but I'm not the first person who's noticed that I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah. And so I just wanted to get the question out, because I didn't think that was what was going on. But then if I don't ask the question, then the conversation feels incomplete. The people who are listening

Grace 1:08:57
Yeah, yeah, no, my my fiance is definitely more masculine. And she, like, that's how she sees herself, whereas I don't see myself that way. Yeah, I'm just heavier.

Scott Benner 1:09:10
Gotcha. Listen. I mean, I don't even know what to say. When I feel like I wish you good luck. Like I like I feel like, I feel like I'm pushing you in a rowboat out to the ocean. I'm like, you'll probably be okay. Here. Take a banana. But do Yeah. How long have you been working on it? Bye. Professional. How long have you been at this?

Grace 1:09:35
Three years. Okay. Yeah, I think it's only been three.

Scott Benner 1:09:38
Do you see this as an eating disorder coupled with body dysmorphia? Or how do you think

Grace 1:09:43
um, there's definitely, there's definitely, like eating disorder issues that underlie like, when I was younger, I was, uh, I, I would like, hide what I was eating. My mom was very strict when it came to what I do. And because when she was growing up, the way you look equates to how healthy or so she was always lean very. She was a soccer player, all that jazz. So those things that she learned growing up from my grandmother, she then instilled in me. So God forbid I wanted a pop tart, I'd have to sneak a pop tart upstairs, eat it, get rid of the evidence, aka, throw it under my brother's bed so that the boys who could have all of this, were the ones who were implicated in the stolen Pop Tart.

Scott Benner 1:10:35
So yeah, like be skinny. So a boy buys you a house. Like that kind of thing.

Grace 1:10:39
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Gotcha. Oh, yeah.

Scott Benner 1:10:47
Yay. My next afterdark that's coming out. So you and I are talking in real time, but it's a little easier with after darks because they happen. I don't sit on after dark. So as long after I record them, my guess is, yeah, the next one that's going to come out is with an old gentleman who has an eating disorder. And he talks about how he dealt with it. And it's fairly interesting. Like, I think you'll like it.

Grace 1:11:16
Yeah, I'm excited. I appreciate after dark that are like that, because there are a lot of overlapping of feeling and experiences in some ways. So yeah, I look forward to that.

Scott Benner 1:11:30
I I have the one that's coming after that is with a sex worker, a female sex. And she came to the podcast through another afterdark episode. So that's cool. Yeah, I'm excited. Really good feeling about them actually. Just what they do in general, not those specific episodes. But what the series does. Yeah, you know, me, like, it's so easy to say like, well, I'll do an episode about Pre-Bolus. And because people need to know about that, and everyone will want to know, but yeah, you know, you don't expect when you're doing things like this, that you're going to get a note from someone who's like, Hey, I'm a sex worker who found your podcast, because someone in another episode admitted to doing cocaine read doing this? Yeah. Like, why? So I want to come on the part. He was just like, wow, really? Like, these are email? Yeah. I did not expect to get my life. But um, that I think it's really cool. Yeah, I think it's building a really great little compendium of the other stuff that nobody wants to talk about who Avi I mean, listen, I make a crazy generalization here. But there's nothing about you, physically, that I would look at, and then jump to any of these conclusions about you. And I know, right, I know that. That's not that's the case for everybody. I don't think that's how people think about it. Like, I think that, you know, we don't see, we don't see, struggle until we see broken,

Grace 1:12:57
I guess, right, usually, yeah. And you know, that's so true. Because, you if you were to meet me on the street, I would seem as if I got my shit together. I am, like, focused, I've got all these things going for me. Well, on the inside, I am digging myself into this deep tunnel, about a glance that you may have never even intended and been like, damn, like they were looking at me for this than a third. You know, on the outside, you don't see that.

Scott Benner 1:13:26
It's so funny. You say this. So I was leaving a convenience store last night. I'm just gonna be very honest and use my honest words, right. And I saw I saw a really pretty big girl. Yeah, that's all okay. Like, I don't know, another way to put it. Okay. She was super curvy. And, you know, if you held her up to the scale at the doctor's office, I bet she needed to lose 100 pounds, you know? Yeah, if that's how we're gonna measure her, and I thought she was really pretty. And I found her attractive. And I as I crossed buyer, like, I don't listen, Grace. You don't have a penis? You don't know about this, but I physically can't not look at her. Like I just like greatly. Yeah, brains. Like maybe we should make that one pregnant. Like, it's just a very weird thing. Yeah, hard to like, quantify what it is to be a boy. But I looked at her. And I tried to smile in a friendly way because then we made eye contact. And it wasn't creepy. It was just glancing like, we were just passing each other. I never even got the ocular like I was hoping to I know that's I'm just being very honest. Right. So because she because we made eye contact, like friendly passing eye contact, and I smiled. And I thought I saw that interface like that. Yeah, that thing you talked about earlier. Like I thought I saw her face on fat Don't look at me. Yeah, you know, and I and there was like this small part of me that wanted to look at it and go I think you're really pretty and then just leave but I didn't do that because that that would be wrong. So I just left. So then I started thinking as I was walking out the she just keep her eyes down all the time. Yeah, like that kind of thing. Like, does she not want to see people because of stuff like that?

Grace 1:15:14
Yeah. And then you're funny you say that? Yeah, it's funny you say that because my accent in college, I always walk with my head down. And she used to have such a feeling about it. She's like, you always look down. Aren't you looking at anybody? That's like, oh, because I don't want people to look at me. I don't want them to look at me because I'm not happy. And I don't, I don't want to see their judgments, because it's just gonna bury me even further than I've already buried myself. Yeah. And it was a it was a constant thing. She she would always, I don't want to say nitpick. But she always be like, pick your head up, like you're next to her. And she tried to be nice about it. But I knew that the argument that we were about to have about it, it was just like a cyclical thing, because I always walk with my head down.

Scott Benner 1:16:02
Yeah, you know what, I think if I can be super honest, the saddest thing I think about your situation, is that not once have I heard about you wondering about how to get out of this? Like, does it feel like it's never gonna stop?

Grace 1:16:16
Yeah, it's stuff. I feel like it's almost like I hate to say it, but like a lifetime commitment. Like, I'm in this for the long haul. And I can talk till I'm blue in the face, I can pay for the best. Psychologists go on whatever medication that doctors feel is best. But I feel like this is a a ingrained feeling that I can't ever separate myself from.

Scott Benner 1:16:45
So if that's the truth, and I'm not saying it isn't or that I know it is. But if it is, is there a world where you can just start looking at your physical body as your health and say to yourself, Okay, I'm never going to feel good about how I look. But I can at least be healthier? Because you did talk about wanting to stay alive and do things like that. Yeah, earlier.

Grace 1:17:07
Yeah. And it's definitely it was, it would be almost like a homework assignment for myself, like anytime that I see myself having to actively say, Okay, this is like you're giving this many hours today? How many? How many different ways can we be healthier for ourselves? Instead of looking at it being like, oh, like, I have to walk through the world looking like this today? You know, so having to give myself that literally like homework, and have it be a everyday assignment every day of every minute assignment. So that, you know, it's so easy to start in the morning and be like, okay, like, I'm in this great, bright, happy mindset. I'm going to be healthy today. I'm going to make healthy choices today. And then something happens and it changes it all. So that's why it would have to be a constant homework assignment. You know what I mean?

Scott Benner 1:18:03
Yeah, so when something happens, then you fall into kind of those, like sneaking food like that kind of like, yeah, that situation. So if I may, it does feel like you have multiple things happening. Like, I don't think it doesn't seem like all of this stems from one thing like, I don't think this is just Yeah, being depressed. I don't think this is just body dysmorphia. I think it sounds like there's a trifecta here. To me, it feels like there's the body dysmorphia. It feels like the depression, but it also feels like an eating disorder to me a little bit.

Grace 1:18:37
Yeah, definitely been talked about that too, and about how it's impacted, um, in different ways, but I think that there, there's nothing diagnosed yet. I guess I could say, yeah,

Scott Benner 1:18:51
um, I think you're really gonna like that next episode that I was talking about. Yeah, I just wanted to be clear that when I just said that you're talking to a guy who graduated from high school did not go to college. And his entire, like, professional background is I was a graphic designer, I wanted to credit card collection, I worked in the sheetmetal shop and I have a podcast. So try not to look too deeply into.

Grace 1:19:14
Yeah, but you know what your education comes from the fact that you talk to so many different people, you have so much more world knowledge because of all of the vast individuals you talk to because of the podcast, so don't sell yourself short.

Scott Benner 1:19:27
Okay. I hear I'll give myself some credit. People are like, Oh, good. We were waiting for that hasn't happened. And I want to see how I can keep people like very private. My wife has an acquaintance who's been very sick. They've been going on for a while. And they usually talk by like, like face like I said it like you like you're not young and that's not how you only talk to people like through FaceTime and stuff. Like actually, yeah, let me come back to that in a second. But, you know, I keep overhearing these conversations about our illness or illness that they think I might have cancer and I'm like what is going on? On. So far, I finally just said to my wife, like, what are her symptoms? She rattled them off, and I was like, her irons low, she needs a complete iron panel. And, and she's gonna need an iron infusion. There's nothing wrong with her. She doesn't have cancer. And my wife like tells her that. And I guess she was just desperate enough that she went back to where she went and did it. She went to her doctor and gave the doctor my instructions. Okay, wow. And then she got a diagnosis, and she's on our way to feeling better. Oh, my God, I rely on it's ridiculous. I was like that woman's health has been saved by the fact that I have a podcast.

Grace 1:20:41
Yeah. Like, the fact that she was literally thinking she had cancer or you cannot.

Scott Benner 1:20:47
I was like, baffled that I'm like, How was no one seeing this? How come these tests haven't been run? Why am I the one who understands this? I really am an idiot. And I'm just like, I'm like, why is it me? You know? And now yeah. Now because it's been such a thing. And it's going on so long. And I don't know this person as well as my wife does, like, because what I want to do is I really want to speak to her and get my credit, but I can't thank you. Grace, I want to be thanked appropriately. Just like six months from now. You have some sort of like awakening, and it was from this? I want an email.

Grace 1:21:28
Yeah. You know, I'll be the first one. I probably

Scott Benner 1:21:32
I want to like, Scott, thank you for speaking to me so directly about my stuff. I've I feel better credit. Yeah, I want I want to I want that's all. I'm only doing there. So people like will tell now. I'm just kidding. I actually, I have to tell you. Um, I shouldn't joke while I'm being serious at the same time. I feel like some people can't separate it. But I love that. That we're talking about this. I really do. I got to the episode and recording with the the sex worker who should have come out before you so I mean, she's a she's a dancer, which is even something I learned. Like she called herself a sex worker and the entire lead up to the conversation. I was like, I wonder what kind of like work she does. Like, what, what am I gonna find out? Like, there was like, almost like, I walked up in the room. And I was like, I mean, I guess she could be a prostitute. I guess she could be this, like, I started going through all the things that I had. And then and this is what she does. And her entirety of her story is uncommon to my life experience. Yeah. And there was time when I was talking to her just like I'm talking to you now. And I feel the same way talking to you as I did talking to her. Like, I'm not going to record some like funeral procession conversation where we're all just depressed. And we're like, I see you have body dysmorphia. That sounds horrible. Like, tell me right, like you don't even like if we can still be people and talk so that this is relatable, so that someone might talk about it. Like, I don't care. Like if someone listens to this later and thinks like, Oh, God, he made the assumption that like, you know, lesbians do a certain thing, like, I don't care, like I want the conversation. And when I was talking to her, I talked to her on, like, on the level that she she sees herself. Like, I didn't I didn't judge her. I didn't actually have any judgment about her while I was talking, which is a major advancement for me as a human being and that came from the right, you know, I mean, so I don't know, I just think these conversations are much more valuable than people might give them credit for. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm very excited that you did this. I I want to thank you a lot. I want to make sure that I'm not leaving anything out. But

Grace 1:23:52
I also Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I really, I enjoyed this.

Scott Benner 1:23:57
See, but I don't know if that means I just said See. See everyone I did it. I feel

Grace 1:24:07
that's what conversation. I believe

Scott Benner 1:24:09
that I had the same feeling just now as you have when you hide a Reese's Pieces wrapper and nobody finds it. You're like I did it.

Grace 1:24:15
I did it. No one caught me.

Scott Benner 1:24:17
No one caught me. Wow. You have Listen, aside of all this, and, you know, I'll let a little like it's not like it's a real secret. But I'll let the secret out of the bag like I talk to you like in the first 15 minutes not about this. Because part of me wanted everyone else to see that aside of these, like issues that you live with. You're You're just like everybody else. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like you're not like, you're not the Hunchback of Notre DOM like locked up in a bell tower and, you know, completely broken and this isn't. This doesn't happen to real people. It happens The people like this you don't mean like this is you don't I'm saying like I wanted people to understand like your, your lovely, pleasant, wonderful person and this this got stuck to you. You know what I mean? Yeah, but not by your doing Yeah. So I don't know I want to wish you luck but it sounds trite.

Grace 1:25:21
I think all the luck I can get gamma

Scott Benner 1:25:23
killer like I don't know what to say right now. Yeah. And you know, you can tell that we're winding down because now I just have what I think of as fun sex questions about being a lesbian, which I'm not going to ask you. This would only be for my own personal like knowledge. personal gain. Yeah, really would literally just be for me. So let's not do that and we'll stop now instead.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:44
Okay

Scott Benner 1:25:55
huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon. Find out more about Chivo Kai Po pen at G voc glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juice box. I also like to thank Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom G six continuous glucose monitor for their longtime support of the Juicebox Podcast and remind you to head over to dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. To learn more and get started today

Hey, long episodes, I'm going to let you go just want to thank you for everything you do for the show, sharing it, listening to it, downloading it, talking about it with your doctors and your friends, etc. I really appreciate it. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast that was very abrupt but it's over now. Goodbye.

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