#1496 Transference, Sorta
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Erika and Scott discuss how our past shapes diabetes conversations.
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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Welcome back friends to another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.
Today, my conversation with Erica Forsyth is focused on the things that impact us and how we communicate online and in our personal lives, nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan. I know this is gonna sound crazy, but blue circle health is a non profit that's offering a totally free virtual type one diabetes clinical care, education and support program for adults 18 and up. You heard me right, free. No strings attached, just free. Currently, if you live in Florida, Maine Vermont, New Hampshire, Ohio, Delaware, Missouri, Alabama, Mississippi, Iowa or Louisiana, you're eligible for blue circle health right now, but they are adding states quickly in 2025 so make sure to follow them at Blue circle health on social media and make yourself familiar with blue circle health.org. Blue circle health is free. It is without cost. There are no strings attached. I am not hiding anything from you. Blue circle health.org, you know why they had to buy an ad. No one believes it's free. Today's episode is sponsored by the tandem Moby system with control iq plus technology, if you are looking for the only system with auto Bolus, multiple wear options and full control from your personal iPhone. You're looking for tandems, newest pump and algorithm. Use my link to support the podcast, tandem diabetes.com/juicebox, check it out. The episode you're about to enjoy was brought to you by Dexcom, the Dexcom g7 the same CGM that my daughter wears. You can learn more and get started today at my link, dexcom.com/juicebox, Erica, for the very first time, I have no idea how to start our conversation. So as you and I have been off Mike for 10 minutes trying to figure out how to start it, I was like, we should just record us trying to figure it out,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:18
which makes sense, because this is a complicated and can be confusing topic. Yeah, even in our challenge of trying to define it and identify and give it this beautiful intro that kind of mirrors the experience that we might have as we talk about it, and also the experience that you might have understanding it.
Scott Benner 2:35
So I'll just let people behind the curtain. Apparently, at some point in the past, I just texted the word transference to Erica, and I said, remember this, which not valuable now in hindsight, but then when I you know, I take the moment to look at the actual definition of transference. I realize it's very specific to therapy, right? And I think that if I read the definition I have, there's a part where, if I just cuddle off and don't go the rest of the way, it gets us into the idea. So transference says, Here is the psychological concept in which a person unconsciously redirects feelings, expectations or desires from past relationships onto someone in the present. Then it says, often a therapist. Now that's where we need to forget that part, like so forget the often the therapist part, and actually forget the transference part. I'm more interested in the idea of how we take the feelings we're having and then put them onto somebody else, and then, at times, use that as a I don't know an agreement with ourselves that it's okay now to be harsh in return. I see it online. I see it when people talk about their physicians. I see it when physicians talk about their patients. Sometimes I've had some anonymous doctors come on and speak. I'll never forget the first time it happened, I asked an anonymous doctor, like, you know, what's the problem with the health care system? And their opinion was, the patients don't want to take care of themselves. And like, you know, I don't think that that's obviously everybody, but it was an overwhelming enough perspective that this doctor had, they were willing to say it out loud, and it almost stopped them from thinking about the rest of the implications around the idea. And anyway, I think we just start talking, we're going to find our way through this. I think it's an important topic, even though I don't know what to call it at the moment.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:25
Yes, it was we, as you mentioned, transference is is a concept that is named and identified, and as a therapist, you're trained to be aware of that, but it certainly occurs in all of our relationships, our romantic relationships, our peers, our co workers maybe to clarify the difference between transference, which is your feelings desires from your past that are usually from past relationships or experiences that you're putting on to the person you're connecting with in the moment, versus projection, which. Is how you're feeling in the moment, and putting that on the other person, and it doesn't have anything to do with past relationships or past trauma or past attachment. You just as the example we were talking about earlier, you wake up on the wrong side of the bed. You're kind of grumpy, irritable. You go out into the world, you interact with your checker, and you might say something kind of maybe sharp, unknowingly or unconsciously, and you walk out and you say to yourself, gosh, that checker was really kind of irritable and bitter, but really it was you. Yeah, it was you. What's
Scott Benner 5:29
wrong with projection? Right, right. Okay,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:31
which happens most a lot of the time, what we're experiencing is projection and having that awareness, and even sometimes in a lot of you know, marriages, a good intervention is like you say, oh, P card, you're, you know, to interrupt as soon as you feel like your partner is putting that on you. Of like your partner, you know, they're stressed, they're having a stressful day, and they're putting that anxiety or stress on you. You can just, you know, say, up on the P card instead of the D card, as we often Erica, you're saying the
Scott Benner 6:00
p and the p and the D card. And I think we're thinking about different things. So what do those stand
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:06
for? The projection card. Oh my gosh, you just made me blush. Sorry, no, so that's projection. And it's, it happens all the time, and it's simple to a be aware of and then interrupt and intervene without getting into it with your colleague or partner. So that's, that's projection. What we're talking about is, most of the time, I think, in our examples in comp and conversation today, is the transference, which is really from your past, your experiences, that you might have developed coping mechanisms. We've talked about, you know, attachment styles, and we've talked about past trauma, that is all part of that's all at play, yeah, in transparency, that's
Scott Benner 6:58
where it touches the diabetes for me, like that part of where the things that have happened to you in the past really do flavor how I see people responding to things, and I think it just needs to be spoken about, because I think you're holding yourself back sometimes, and at the same time, you could be holding back other people. And I'll maybe talk more about that in a little bit, but I guess for me, the idea is that you know how they say, if there are 10 people that witnessed a crime, and you interview all 10 of them, you get 10 different descriptions of what actually happened, because people's perspectives are different. That idea always interests me in my personal relationships, because when I'm in a group of people, or even if we're not all together, but we're a family, or, you know, an extended family, or, you know, people you work with, or something. It's always in the back of my mind that what I think is happening right now, no matter what it is, is not what they think is happening right now, not exactly you know what I mean like. And so you can say something, you mean something in a very to you is a very pointed way, and then come to realize six months later that that's not how that person took that so life is always moving. It's nebulous, right? It feels like you're doing one thing, but something else is really happening. That person thinks something else is happening. You've got two kids, they see it a completely different way. But in your mind, the story is being written one way, and in everyone else's mind, it's being written a different way and no lie. If you brought them all together and compared them, it's incredibly possible that their description of their life with you would not be even reminiscent of your description of your life with them. Anyway, I don't say that to make a further point, other than I find it valuable to keep that in the back of my head while I'm interacting with people. Then we go into like, private Facebook group situations or online places. And some simple examples that are the most obvious are if a person talks about in any way, shape or form, cutting out any food from anybody's life. Someone who grew up with an eating disorder will have a very vicious response to that, and I know why they are doing it, like they think they're defending someone against having to go through the trouble that they went through, right and maybe are still going through. Sometimes it just devolves into things I don't understand, like somebody will just misuse a word, or their intent will come off, you know, halfway the way they meant it to, and halfway not. And I use this as an example before we started recording, so I'll say it again. It's happened last night. It's going to happen again tomorrow. Someone in my private Facebook group is going to have a reaction to something that, no matter how many different ways I try to look at it, I do not understand what in the hell they're talking about. They're angry or upset with another person, and I've tried to read the entire thread. I've tried to read it in different tones in my head. Like, how could they have maybe interpreted these words? I can't find it, but man, they're pissed. And it feels like, at that point, it feels like a street beating. At that point, like, Oh, my God, am I? Fans are going, I'm not stopping till the cops get here. Like that's how it feels. The Dexcom g7 is sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast, and it features a lightning fast 30 minute warm up time. That's right from the time you put on the Dexcom g7 till the time you're getting readings. 30 minutes. That's pretty great. It also has a 12 hour grace period so you can swap your sensor when it's convenient for you. 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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:22
Yes. And oftentimes those things might occur when we're responding way too quickly. We're reacting right and not responding. And we don't know, nor maybe it is that person aware of how they were feeling from the day, yeah, and then we don't know how what that person's history is and they were maybe reminded oftentimes, someone might say or do something that reminds you of, perhaps a parent or a past romantic relationship, and your body because of how we're how our nervous system works, you're trained, and perhaps that's how you survived. We've talked a lot about this in our resilience series, in order to survive, you had all these adaptive skills, and maybe it was to come out with your hands up, yeah, and your and your mouth going, and then soon, along the lines, you realize, maybe these aren't, these are now maladaptive, but they kept you alive for so long. So that's part of trauma, but then you're also, it's also transference in that moment, if that's what's happening. Obviously, we don't know if that was happening for this person, but oftentimes pausing and thinking, Gosh, I really want to, you know, rip into this person, either verbally or on Facebook, like, what is that? What is happening within me that I want to do that is that because I'm tired, stressed, maybe? Is that because this person is reminding me of my mother and this is how I responded to her, or does this person really, are they really saying something harsh? But I want to say, I'm going to respond in a maybe more clear way. Do you
Scott Benner 13:52
have any idea how many times when somebody is actually saying something that I look at and I go, Okay, I see how that's harsh, and I'll respond back to them. Like, if you could just be a little kinder here. And they're like, kinder. What are you talking about? I'm like, wait you. You weren't doing that on purpose. Somebody asked me recently online, I did a Q A the other night, which I do a lot of times, and someone just asked me, why or how am I, like, so good at moderating the group their opinion? Like, well, how do you do this? Why are you so good at it? How come it seems easy while you're doing it, why aren't you pissed right now? Like, that kind of vibe? And I in a couple of things. So first of all, I'm older, so I grew up when people actually spoke to each other. You know, you don't text JK to somebody if you want to tell them you're just joking. I grew up in a world where, like, if I wanted to talk to my grandmother when I was 10, I had to get on the phone with her and talk to her. And then when I got there and we saw her, there was nothing to do, so we spoke to each other, right? Like, you know, like, you didn't, like, just run off and do a thing. People all the time are like, I'm so anxious. Like, I feel like I can't get anything accomplished. You feel like there's a million things to do. That's the like, the crux of the problem is that today, there's so much to do, but back. Back then and have anything to do Erica, so we talk to each other, right? And so I know how to speak to people, and then I know how to hear something that I don't like, and then have to respond back into that person's face, you know, not like, Oh yeah, well, you like, it's not like, it's easier to type it out. And people will say that, like, Oh, they're keyboard warriors, which I think is an easy excuse, because I still don't think they think they're being shitty. When the person said, How do you do this? I said, I always assume, if someone's making me upset, that I've misunderstood them. And even if I haven't, that assumption keeps me out of an argument. That's it. I always think there's no way they meant to make me upset. Now there are some people who do mean to make me upset, but they're very, very much so fewer and more far between than you imagine. Most people are not trying to piss you off. They're not trying to stick a, you know, a finger in your eye. They're just saying a thing. Their communication is not great, their wording wasn't right. Maybe they just missed a comma and it just threw off the whole thing for you. You know what I mean? But like, that's how I do it. My assumption is no one is trying to purposely make me upset, and if I feel like that, I should just try to clarify. Because in the clarification process. They often learn that you didn't understand what they were saying, and then you just kind of get it back over. Now ask me if I can do that in my personal life. Not so much. It's not that easy, but, but I'm very good at it online. I mean, I grew up in a time when, like I said, not only did you have to speak to people, but once the Internet became a thing. It was all long form conversations, all forums and people telling stories and responding back thoughtfully and editing their thoughts like, you know, now it's just, you know what I mean, like, it's five emojis. Can mean, like, you know, 20, you know, a paragraph, right? And that's it like. And I do think that the world is moving so quickly at this point that everything's a hot take at this point. You know what I mean? I don't know.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:06
Yes, yeah, we're we're moving too quickly, reacting all the time without pausing. And you have learned and trained yourself and yes, online to to pause, assume the best case scenario in how that person is communicating, and that's and then if you don't understand, you're clear, asking, seeking for clarification. I'm
Scott Benner 17:29
sorry. What did you mean? Listen, I've done it the past, and they're like, they think you're being sarcastic. There are people who, if you're being kind to them, assume you're fucking with them, because they are so unaccustomed to somebody being kind to them. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:45
I could think, I can. I've read, I've observed, okay, yes, yeah, yeah,
Scott Benner 17:49
no, you come back and say, hey, look, I'm really sorry. Or, like, you have this long conversation. At the end, you say, I hope you have a great day. And they're like, what's that mean? Like, Oh, I meant, I hope you have a great day. But I really meant that. And they can't even, like, sometimes they can't even absorb that. They think you must be screwing with them if you're telling them have a great day at the end, like, my god, like, are you hearing sarcasm where it doesn't exist? That's horrible. And that's what I see. Sometimes people think, Oh, I know what they meant by that, but I gotta tell you a secret. They don't know what they meant by that. So I'm pretty sure you don't know, like, nobody's that thoughtful anymore when they're when they're conversating like that, like some people are, but yes, but often you just you're saying the first thing. You're doing it with your thumbs. You're doing it while you're cooking. When I did that Q A that came up with that question, I was doing a Q A on this keyboard, on that monitor, while on this keyboard and this monitor, I was doing something else. And, no lie, I had a football game on while I was doing it, and I still go to sleep thinking I wasted some of my life today, but I did. I did more that day than probably, you know, in a week that I used to do before all this existed. So, so is that part of it? Is it, you know what I mean? Like, do you think we've raised a generation of people who aren't great face to face communicators anyway, and then skipped over the face to face and asked them to do what I think is a more difficult form of communication, which is in writing?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:13
Oh, boy, that's probably part of it, right? With this development and rapid growth of online communication and social media. But even before that, transference still existed. Yeah, and perhaps now we don't have as much, you know, mass experience of practicing in real time, in face to face time, as much as we did, perhaps 20 years ago, even I was wondering if it would be interesting to talk about or give examples of how transference might play out. I know we want to bring it whole in the context of diabetes, but I just have these three examples that I think could be interesting to talk about. How okay in a work relationship, a person with a. Strict, demanding parent. So as a child, you grew up with a strict, demanding parent. Now you're in a work environment, you might assume that your supervisor or manager will always find fault in your work, even when you're receiving that positive feedback. So it's kind of a way to think about like your lens. So that's how you're placing right your past experience of having a really strict, demanding parent. You're now redirecting that experience and the feelings you had towards your parent, towards your supervisor or manager, that no matter what they say, even if they're like, Great job today, or like, Have a good day, right, or like, you really did great in that presentation, all you're really assuming or thinking is that they're always finding fault. The other idea, you might idealize a mentor attribute wisdom or perfection to them that might not align with reality. You don't even want to think about. You want to avoid thinking about any criticism, and you're just always looking up to this, your mentor, manager, supervisor, and that might not align with actually, what's happening. So, so it's, yeah,
Scott Benner 21:10
go ahead, yeah. So Is it as simple as if I have like an overbearing endocrinologist as a kid, I might not feel warmly towards doctors for the rest of the way, or if my parents are a little too maybe involved, and don't give me enough autonomy that I'm just going to grow up. Like, being like, oh, like, I don't know what to do. Like, you know, like, is it always that simple? Do people ever pivot from these things?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:32
Oh, yeah, yeah. I think you can't. Certainly you can pivot. But part of it is that awareness, I think, with the endocrinologist, example, having perhaps, the not, you know, not ideal relationship with your endo as a child, you might this is kind of a direct, right redirection, redirection of your feeling towards any other future doctor, assuming they don't have your best interest, or they don't really get you, because that was your experience as a Child. That is, for sure, transference the parent example, if you then kind of grew up feeling like they were kind of managing, and you were ready to take some independence, but you couldn't, they wouldn't allow it. As an adult. If you were to then be in a relationship with someone, the transference would look like your partner, suggesting maybe you should Pre Bolus right now. And if you reacted really strict in the way that you maybe your parents how you reacted to your parents as a child. But perhaps most of the time, your partner is really supportive, but that one or two times you know, or you know, randomly, they make a suggestion, and you respond in a really reactive way that could be, again, this is just, yeah, this might not be all the time, but that would be, you're transferring your feelings towards your parents, towards your partner when they're trying to be helpful. Your partner could be doing it too much, and that's a whole different issue, right? Does that make sense? It
Scott Benner 22:54
does. And I actually have a couple of examples here that I'm just going to read it doctor patient relationships, how transference kind of show up in type one diabetes. A person with type one may unconsciously project past experiences with controlling or dismissive doctors onto a new healthcare provider. If a child had an overly strict endocrinologist, they may grow up avoiding medical advice or distrusting doctors. And then it says conversely, if they had a nurturing doctor, I do feel like I see this a lot, they might seek excessive validation from newer healthcare providers. So if you had some great doctor growing up that was super over nurturing, then you're always mad at the next one because they didn't they're not living up to this expectation, right? And then you hear people say, Oh, my doctor sucks. And I'm like, Oh, do they suck? Or, in the end, I just don't know that when you're judging someone else, you shouldn't be just very much thinking about who you are in the scenario as well. Like, and I'm not talking about outlier stuff, like, like, people who are just really, genuinely terrible people. Obviously, I'm not trying to find a reason for that to be okay. But when you're just having these sort of things, parental transfer and burnout. If a child with type one had overprotective parents, they may struggle with independence as adults feeling guilty or anxious when making their own diabetes decisions that I didn't imagine. But so if somebody had always been doing it for you, then when you go to do it, you're always going to be wondering, Am I doing this, right? Am I doing it as well as they used to do it? Am I letting down the effort that they put into me? Even? Like, is that it's crazy, right? But, geez,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:20
yes, although that, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess that is loosely. That's, this is where the confusion, like transference, usually is put on to a new person, right? But I guess you're kind of, then
Scott Benner 24:31
they almost put it onto yourself and yourself, yeah, right, yeah. And again, not using the word transference, right, right, right. That's defined some adults with type one unconsciously recreate their childhood caregiver dynamic with partners like to expect their their partner to help them, and then if their partner doesn't want to, it could cause a strain. I've seen that before, too, where, you know, people are just like, well, I didn't get the response back from my partner that I that I deserve and and I'm like, oh gosh. Like, they've probably got a whole little like. Uh, origin story too. That might have stopped them from being able to do that for you. You know what I mean? Like, it's back to what I'm saying. Like, everybody's got a different perspective. But in the end, we all give our opinion of what happened at the traffic accident, and that's the one we're going to hold to because how it felt to us, you know,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:15
right? And in that, that partner example, I'm going to try and describe it not as a therapist, like in therapy, we'd call that counter transference. If the partner is like, well, I don't want to help or support this person because I was never validated enough or received gratitude, because I used to help my kid sister all the time growing up, you know, I don't like that partner may, as you were saying, that partner might have a story, yeah, about why they are scared or fearful or or don't want to, whatever the reason is, and then having that awareness to communicate that would be the next step,
Scott Benner 25:52
exactly. So what I see that always like, baffles me, but it doesn't once you start going through this, I guess, is like somebody will be very like, supported by somebody in a post, right? And someone, you know, it doesn't happen a lot. I have to say, the group's really good. But once in a while you'll get somebody that comes through. It's just like, you know, you're being weak. Or, you know, why do you need these people to tell you that you're doing okay? Or, like, I'm like, Oh, you're asking the wrong question. The question should be, why don't I see this kindness as what it is like? Why am I offended by people being kind to each other, but vice versa? By the way, when you see somebody be honest and straightforward about something, but not cruel, how come? Very often I see people, they'll tell me that person's not being nice, and I'm like, No, they're not being unkind. They're just being direct. They're not looking at you first thing going, Oh, I hope you're okay. And like, they're not doing the voice and like, the eyes, and they're just saying, hey, look, here's the answer to the question, like, what are you being so harsh for? My god, they're not being harsh. It's just, it's not even critical, like I and people who are like me and have this position, if I think, if you're doing it well, you really do have to remove yourself from all the opinions while you're moderating, because I have found myself more often than you might count, defending something that in my personal life, I'd be like, I would never get behind this, but in the realm of we're all gonna get treated equally, and all of our ideas are valid, and as long as we're being kind, it's okay to say what you're gonna say. There are times people say stuff and I'm like, I don't personally agree with that at all, but they're not doing anything wrong by the way they're presenting it. You're flipping out. And somehow you've put yourself in a position where you get to think you're right and they're wrong. And I don't know another way to put this other than like, wrapping it around virtue signaling, which is something you see online a lot like, people will just say the thing that they think nobody else can argue with, and it's obvious that it's right and that they want to be associated with this so badly. And then they see somebody else who just says something like, let's be less obtuse for a minute. Erica, okay, okay, okay, it's incredibly possible that some people had problems from the COVID vaccine. Okay, yeah, it's possible. I'm not saying it is that it absolutely happened. It happened to a million people. I'm just saying it's possible, and if someone brings it up, I'm weirded out by people going, like, we can't talk about that. I'm like, I mean, I don't understand that exactly. Like, you know, maybe they're end up being wrong, and we'll talk it through, and you'll find out they were wrong. It's possible. But like, it's so strange to just say no, no, I'm on the side of right. I'm on the side of good. And so anything you say that goes against that is bad. I'm obviously good. I win. You lose. You're being mean. I'm being great. I don't know that that's true because we haven't had the conversation yet like that is a specific example. Is something I've been living through for three years moderating this group, continuing down paths of difficult discussions. There's a no religion, no politics rule in the group. But from my perspective, if you come on and say, I just I'm so grateful to God that my family is getting through this, I don't think that's religious. I just think that's you just saying I'm grateful to God. If you don't believe in God, just don't comment. Don't come in and be like, there's no religious conversation. I mean, it's religious conversations. The guy's just grateful. And I'm like, Why are you so upset that he is grateful to God? Let's just say there's no God who cares. Let's say there is a God who cares. Like, I don't understand why everyone always plants a flag so firmly somewhere and decides you're wrong. I'm right, and because I'm right and you're so obviously wrong, I'm allowed to just open up a fire hose of on you, and I don't have to stop, like, I don't I don't understand, like, you don't know that, that there are plenty of people in the world who think you're wrong and they're right. Like, is that not obvious? So
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:58
in that you. Example, I would encourage all of us to say, Wow, I'm having a really strong reaction to this person being grateful to God. And I'm going to think, Gosh, does this remind me of somebody? Am I responding to like a conversation I've had or an experience with a priest or a family or a church, or am I just having a really hard day? Or am I? There are probably multiple things you could consider, but just noticing when you're having that really strong reaction or intense response related to something in the in the present moment, is this reminding me of something from the past? And if not, okay, then think about how you want to respond? Yeah, the
Scott Benner 30:41
most interesting way to parse through that, if you're listening, in my opinion, is this, a conservative leaning person thinks of me as conservative. I'm talking about me a religious person thinks of me as spiritual, because I've said I'm not religious. A not religious person believes me to be a pagan because, like, so like, so I am. You're neutral. I'm so neutral that you agree with me, and so you put me on your team. Or if you disagree with me, you put me on the opposite team. It happens constantly. I've had people online like, rant about, like, he's Joe Rogan, and I'm like, I don't really fit into that category. I also don't know that Joe Rogan fits into the Joe Rogan category. I don't think any of us fit into the category that you're putting us in. Do you know what I mean? Like, I always say people like you, trust me, you don't know how I think about this. The election just went by. Liberal people definitely think I would like paint my hair like the rainbow, and they definitely think that. And I'm also not telling you, I wouldn't, I'm just saying they're super sure about it. They're just as sure as the conservative people who believe that. I know that those hippie liberals are ruining everything. It's fascinating what ends up happening when you put in this position, but at the same time, if you're moderating something, and I come in and I say, hey, look, you know, they're not saying anything bad here. Immediately that person believes that I'm on their team. I'm sticking up for them. I can't believe this is what you think. I've taken you to be like this. You should just take me to be neutral and to believe that I'm good with whatever you think. I couldn't possibly care less what you think. I'm just trying to keep the conversation going so you all can realize that you've all got diabetes and it sucks, and you have a lot that you could help each other with, as long as we can sit here and talk about it. I don't care if a pangolin ate a bat or if it got out of a lab. I don't care if Dr Fauci is a great guy, or if he's horrible, it doesn't matter to me. I also can't prove it, and I don't even have the time to worry about it. I just want you all to keep talking, so that you realize that you have these experiences around diabetes and insulin and burnout and doctors and all the other the real you're actually struggling with every day, and you could help each other. So why don't we stop arguing about whether or not Mark Zuckerberg, blah, blah, blah, because I don't know him. Elon did a Nazi salute. Did he I don't know. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. I don't know. You know who knows him? He just told you one. Do you believe him? No, well, then I don't know what the one like we're gonna keep like, I'm crazy from this like, you're gonna keep digging through it. You can't prove for the rest of your life. Here's what we can prove. That lady knows how to Pre Bolus, and that one over there knows how to set up a tandem really well, and that lady knows how to use Omnipod five. Those are the things you should be talking about with each other. And if one of us uses a word that makes you upset, do what Eric had just said. Just stop and say to yourself, Why am I having such a harsh reaction to this? I know how hard this sounds to some people and to other people. It's obvious and common sense. If you see something you disagree with, scroll past it. Yeah. All done. Like, that's it. It's super simple. Is this why I brought this up? Is this just frustration about me monitoring a Facebook group?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:08
Oh my gosh, maybe sorry, but you, but what you have, and I'm noticing your experience, is that you've created a very safe space, right? And oftentimes that happens in in a therapy room, right where you've created safety, safety, and the client typically might assume that the therapist is aligned with their perspective, and that's not right or wrong. That's just the feeling of safety been experienced, and that's great. I've spoken
Scott Benner 34:36
to a therapist in my life, but 100% thought he thought I agreed with everything, and he agreed with me. And I'm sure he was like, This guy's an asshole, yeah, probably exactly, I swear to you, like, I just want you all to realize that group is there for that, that safety is important, but it's important also to remember that the fragile amongst us that think of. Safety is one thing, and the people amongst us who have really harsh opinions and are very pointed and don't mince their words, they need safety too. Everyone needs that safety. It doesn't matter what their perspective is or how they speak like that's the thing you're missing in today's political landscape, in social media and everything else, that everyone has that position. And in their heart, they believe that if you don't let them speak, you're the oppressor. And it doesn't matter if you're like, you know, a hippie, you could still be oppressing somebody. And it doesn't matter if you're screaming and yelling about, God, you could still be oppressing somebody. And to bring it back into this, if you come in and start ranting and raving about low carb eating, you're oppressing somebody. And if you're yelling about I had this cupcake and I put a waffle on top of it and syrup, and guess what, I Bolus for it, someone feels oppressed by that, and I they're not really oppressed. It's an overuse of the word, but someone feels like their thing is being ignored, and their needs and their desires and their wants and their hopes and their dreams are being ignored. And what I'm saying is none of you have the power to even do that to each other, like just be kind. You know, if you have an opinion about something, there's a way to write out the sentence where you get your criticism across without it feeling like a criticism, where you get your point across in a way that could actually make somebody think, like, oh, that they might have a point there. You know, like, because yelling and ranting, or, you know, running around acting crazy on all sides of this spectrum. I'm literally not sticking up for one person's political views or views about eating. I really couldn't possibly care less how you eat or what you love, or I just don't care. But everyone's going to feel like the people who aren't agreeing with them are against them. And I think there's a way to not agree, but not to leave the person feeling like you're against them. I hope that makes sense, yes,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:06
and I think as in this, as we're still talking, I guess about the Facebook group, if you're noticing that you're having a really strong emotional response to the comment, not only checking yourself and wondering, is this, is this triggering something from the past? And then if you still want to write something, you could even build in some awareness and lead with, gosh, I noticed I'm feeling really strongly to your I'm feeling really strongly frustrated or concerned or angry by your comment. This is how I'm feeling. I mean, you're that's not gonna, quote, fix it all, but you're demonstrating and practicing for yourself some awareness of why you're feeling that way,
Scott Benner 37:47
and you'd be a little vulnerable too. That helps people like, that's the other thing that the person asked me about, like, how do you do this? And I said, I'm gonna give a secret away here a little bit, but I always put myself in a reasonably subservient position in the conversation. Because I don't think that most people don't want to be lorded over. And some, and those, some of those people who don't want that have a very bad reaction to it. And the people who, if I put myself subserviently in the in the back and forth, the Kinder people don't Lord that over you anyway. They just see you as kind and so, like, it's a way to not trigger people. And I really should say this, because now I realized how it kind of sounds 99.9% of the people in that group are lovely. I do believe it's we're still talking about the fringes. Yeah, you know, the people who are going nuts in one way or the other, or angry, or whatever they're doing doesn't really matter. But the reason why it's important and why it's it needs to be spoken about, even though it feels like it's just a few people, because it really is just a few people, is because it gives the feeling that it's everywhere. That's the problem is that literally, what's the saying one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. Is that? Like, it doesn't really spoil the bunch. It makes you look at the bushel of apples and go like, Oh, I probably shouldn't stick my hand in there. Even though there's only a worm in that one right there, I could probably grab this one from the other side. The reason I'm so quick about it online, and try to be so quick about it online, is because in a group where sometimes 50 new people are coming in every 24 hours, two people, you know, four it's two people an hour, right? Like, two new people an hour. The first thing they see when they get there can't be your crazy ass talking about some crazy thing and having some other crazy person yelling back at them, who's just having a bad day. Because we finally got them to a place that's going to help them. Finally got them here and you want the first thing they see is for you to be rant and Raven about something, because they're going to leave. They're going to think, oh yeah, this is what I know about Facebook. Somebody told me this was a good group, but obviously it doesn't. What they're not going to know is that 120 other posts from that day weren't anything like that, and that Erica was. It's outside of your expertise, and maybe outside of mine, to some degree, has a lot to do with the algorithm. The algorithm knows what pisses you off, and it shows it to you, and so
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:10
even if it's your first crazy by the way,
Scott Benner 40:14
I keep saying this recently, but how many have you had anybody tell you yet you can't maybe you can't tell me. In practice, my algorithm knew I was gay before I did. Have you ever heard anybody say that? That's a thing that's happening more and more like I look back now and I go, Oh my God, my algorithms been trying to tell me I'm a lesbian for nine months. I didn't realize it, because it's feeding me what I'm looking for. If you're a person who lingers, you don't even have to, like conflict, pause, yeah, if you linger on it a little bit, or click, or find yourself reading it, or scroll up and down once or twice to show that you're going through it. Then you join a new Facebook group, and here's 120 new posts today. You know the 1,000% of them are about like, taking good care of yourself, or celebrating how things are going, or how I got my standard deviation done, or something like that. But instead it goes, Hey, here's one where a lady is yelling at a guy for blah, blah, blah. You love it when people yell at each other, and then you think, Oh yeah, look, this place is exactly like the internet is. And so we put up so many posts every day of people celebrating or people showing you what worked for them, or answering questions that everybody has, the algorithm will not serve those posts to people. They won't. You have to go find them. But if I go on, we did a thing recently. I put I did a thing. I put up a post. And I said, Hey, everybody, listen. I've been trying to get the word out about I was doing a giveaway. I was trying to give away a spot to camp to kids. And I was like, so the first paragraph of this post, I started a fight. I said, Hey, what do you think a tipping culture? Isn't it crazy that we're being asked to tip for things and blah blah blah, I've got a new rule, if I'm standing up, you don't get tipped, like, blah blah, like that kind of thing, like, meaning like ordering at the counter. Yeah. So I put a little post together, and right under that, I say, Hey, listen everybody, I don't really care about this. I'm just trying to make the algorithm serve this post to people. I'm trying to do a giveaway. Here's the giveaway information below, but do me a favor, go down in the comments and argue about tipping. Holy crap. That post got served to people for a solid week. It got seen by 80% of the people that were in the group. Have you ever heard the phrase I'd give my left nut? I'd give my left nut for some of my posts to be seen by 80% of the people in the group. And then, you know what? I was like, this is just what I'll do now. I'll put a fake argument at the top of each one and blah, blah. Except, you know what happened? A handful of people who were servers were really fucking pissed about it. So I was like, Oh, God, oh, you can't get around the algorithm and still be kind. I saw
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:45
the puppy post. Did you get more views with the puppy? Not
Scott Benner 42:49
as much as I've gotten with like, people complaining, arguing. Oh, yeah, you could use sexuality, but I won't. I don't do I'm not going to do that. But you see, a lot of even companies are doing that now, like device companies, like, I mean, they pump out, I mean, because they're always asking people, right? Like, hey, sending your pictures of you with your device. But you know, when you see a lot of posts in the summertime when people send in their pictures with their device, and that just the algorithms like, oh, look, there's a person whose skin isn't completely covered, they shove that, that content forward more. So, I mean, maybe I could get abs and try it. I don't know, but I think that's gonna take a while. You know what? I mean, I don't know. I listen, is there, is there a wrap up here for people? Because I started off by just thinking, you guys have this feeling inside, and you're putting it on other people, like, that's just how it is, how it felt to me, and you're stopping yourself from enjoying life or getting answers or meeting friends or making a safe place for yourself or finding a community or building yourself a digital home, or whatever it is you're trying to do, like when you're out there arguing with people, this is what's going on behind the scenes, and you're making one lovely podcast. Or who's in charge of all of it out of his mind. So please stop. He can't take it much
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:11
longer. I can take, you know. So the yes, you're, you're, you're strong,
Scott Benner 44:15
I'm fine.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:19
I think we all are. It's all human nature, right? Yeah, and we all are responding and reacting from our past experiences. And the more we can bring awareness to that, I think, you know, the more beautiful experience we can have. But it's it's hard, it's a hard journey.
Scott Benner 44:35
If I had one piece of advice, I just tell people, put yourself in my position, make it your goal to create a place where everybody is welcome and everybody's there to help each other. And if you have that as your like, your north star, then the rest of it just kind of comes. Like, even when people ask about, like, you know, why do you think the podcast is so popular? But if, like, it's simple, like, I just get up every morning and I think, like, oh. Wonder what these people need, and then I just try to imagine what that is and give it to them. And you know, like, if you had that thought when you were dealing people, like, what does this person need right now? And just did that, you'd get back the thing you need without trying. But that's some hippie dippie. So you're probably not going to believe me, but like, the truth is that the podcast has helped me way more than it's helped you, if you're listening. And I got that by doing nice things for other people. I think there's a parable in the Bible about it, even, but I would know, because I'm a pagan, unless you really like me, and then I'm very spiritual, and I might have read
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:33
about it, and I don't, I don't think your therapist thought you were a jerk. For the record, he's a
Scott Benner 45:38
lovely guy, by the way. I really did like him, but, you know, he's still around. Think I should stop by and say hi. There's no way he'd remember me. You mentioned I'd be like, Hey, what's up? If you like, Get out of here. No, you don't think so. You don't think he'd be like, Hey, you're not paying me. I don't want to see
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:55
you. No, I think it'd be nice to see clients like, I mean, I don't know how long ago you went, but I think it's always nice to hear from them. You know, one, 510, years later, 20, I don't know if the guy
Scott Benner 46:04
just opened the door and he'd be like, Oh, my God, you never murdered anybody. That's awesome. Erica being really super serious for a second, and then I'll let you go. What do you think, if it just stream of consciousness? How do you think you can best approach talking to people online in a community setting, understanding that people are very stressed, a lot of them, some of them might feel euphoric, like they figured something out. They might proselytize like like, given the all the things that might happen. And that's basically what do you think your best plan of, I don't know, attack is for becoming part of a community. It's a question I'm just asking off top my head, so you don't
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:47
have an answer. My plan to be a part of a community like the Facebook group. How
Scott Benner 46:51
do I enter into that space and have the most success before
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:56
either reading or posting, checking in with how you're feeling right? Are we? Are you scrolling while you're cooking? Are, you, know, just checking in right in the moment before you open it up to read or post? Take a beat. And I know this is hard to do. I don't do it all the time. Like it is hard to do right? Like it's just habit. We're sitting there doing whatever, and we're scrolling just like, Am I Am I ready for this? Do I want this? How am I feeling right now? Go from there and then, if you're noticing irritation or even sadness, you know, a lot of times we hop on and maybe the stories we're reading are too intense for how you're feeling in that moment, that's okay. That doesn't mean what people are sharing is wrong. It's just it's too hard for you in that moment of time. So maybe put it down and say, Gosh, this is really, this is really triggering, and it's truly triggering, right? Like, if you are feeling that sadness, it's okay allow that to come, or if you're feeling neutral and you want to chime in check in with how you're responding. So it's just kind of a really awareness of how you are in that moment. How are you feeling as you're reading or posting and noticing? Is this coming from how I'm feeling right now? Is it present feeling, or is this triggering a past feeling or experience? Yeah, those three things hard to do all the time. That's what I would do
Scott Benner 48:15
for me, and I've brought it up a number of times the podcast I probably haven't talked about in a long time. It's the college commencement speech called This is water that I read like probably about once a year, or listen to once a year. If I can find the recording on YouTube, it just helps me to think about something very simply, and I'll bastardize a lot of what the author said, but I just try this. If someone zooms past me on the road, and they're driving crazy. I try to think to myself, they must have a really good reason for doing that. They probably don't Erica. They're probably just assholes. Okay? I like to think they really gotta and they're trying to get to a Burger King on the corner. I like to think that they're kids at home in trouble, and they're racing home to help them, because it doesn't do me any good to imagine that they're bad people and that they don't care about me and that they're going to kill somebody. It just makes me upset, and giving them the benefit of the doubt is maybe the most holistic lovely thing that I can do for myself, and in the course of doing that, I get more out of life. So if you go into that space just thinking like if someone's doing something that's really rubbing me the wrong way, I just assume they either have a very good reason for it or I'm misunderstanding them. I give them the benefit of the doubt, and then it always works out for me. That's how I don't end up in arguments with people online. I get put in so many situations every day that if I came from any other perspective, I'd be laying waste to people constantly, because, you know, someone's always got a problem with something like I spoke about earlier, and like, you can't be the one who's just always coming in with a ruler and cracking people over the knuckles like it just doesn't work that way. So anyway, I appreciate. You doing this with me? I know I talked a lot. I apologize. Oh, it's all good. Thanks. Hold on one second I'm gonna say goodbye to you.
Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast was sponsored by the new tandem Moby system and control iq plus technology. Learn more and get started today at tandem diabetes.com/juice box. Check it out. Dexcom sponsored this episode of the juice box podcast. Learn more about the Dexcom g7 at my link. Dexcom.com/juice box. Earlier you heard me talking about blue circle health, the free virtual type one diabetes care, education and support program for adults. And I know it sounds too good to be true, but I swear, it's free, thanks to funding from a big T 1d philanthropy group, blue circle health doesn't bill your insurance or charge you a cent. In other words, it's free. They can help you with things like carb counting, insurance navigation, diabetes technology, insulin adjustments, peer support, Prescription Assistance and much more. So if you're tired of waiting nine months to get in with your endo or your educator, you can get an appointment with their team within one to two weeks. This program is showing what T 1d care can and should look like currently if you live in Florida, Maine Vermont, New Hampshire, Ohio, Delaware, Missouri, Alabama, Mississippi, Iowa or Louisiana. If you live in one of those states, go to blue circle health.org to sign up today. The link is in the show notes, and please help me to spread the word blue circle health had to buy an ad because people don't believe that it's free, but it is. They're trying to give you free care if you live in Florida, Maine, Vermont, Ohio, Delaware, Alabama and Missouri. It's ready to go right now. And like I said, they're adding states so quickly in 2025 that you want to follow them on social media at Blue circle health, and you can also keep checking bluecirclehealth.org to see when your free care is available to you. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you're not already subscribed or following the podcast in your favorite audio app, like Spotify or Apple podcasts, please do that now. Seriously, just to hit follow or subscribe will really help the show. If you go a little further in Apple podcast, and set it up so that it downloads all new episodes. I'll be your best friend, and if you leave a five star review, ooh, I'll probably send you a Christmas card. Would you like a Christmas card? The Diabetes variable series from the Juicebox Podcast goes over all the little things that affect your diabetes that you might not think about travel and exercise to hydration and even trampolines. Juicebox podcast.com, go up in the menu and click on diabetes variables. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording, wrongwayrecording.com, you.
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