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The Juicebox Podcast is from the writer of the popular diabetes parenting blog Arden's Day and the award winning parenting memoir, 'Life Is Short, Laundry Is Eternal: Confessions of a Stay-At-Home Dad'. Hosted by Scott Benner, the show features intimate conversations of living and parenting with type I diabetes.

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#476 Common Sense v. Fear

May 07, 2021Scott Benner

Deva was diagnosed as an adult but she's seen type 1 before.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to Episode 476 of the Juicebox Podcast, I have a treat for you today.

Today's episode is with Deva. And I'm just gonna say it, she's my best friend. But this episode comes with more than just a pithy little opening, it comes with a money back guarantee. If you don't love Deva, and this conversation, everything you paid today to listen to the podcast, will be refunded back to you 100% in the form of an expired gift card. But if you love this episode, do something for me. I'll ask him one second after the music. First, let me tell you a couple of things. Here's the big one. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. Alright, the person you're about to hear was diagnosed as an adult, but they have an incredible attachment to type one diabetes and their childhood. It's an amazing story. And somehow around the one hour mark, we just really get into it. I hope you like this.

So when this is all over, if you enjoyed it as much, as I said, Please take five minutes to go to T one d exchange.org. Ford slash juice box, click on the link that says join our registry now. And then fill out the simple survey. That's it. You have to be a type one, or the caregiver of a type one. And you need to be from the United States. If you are those things, were one of those things, I guess you could be both. You could have type one be from the United States and be the parent of a kid with type one. I don't get bonus points for that if you are but still, I guess you could be we're getting away from the point. The point is if you are one of those people going clicking on join our registry now filling out that simple survey will do huge things for people living with type one diabetes, and it helps the podcast so it's a real bonus. This is going to be 100% anonymous, so none of your answers will be attached to you. It is HIPAA compliant. It does not require you to ever go anywhere, right you just do it from your couch sofa. Some people call it a sofa. Some people call it a couch. I'll let you wonder what I call it. But right now in your mind, you know what you call it? Right? Again, we've gotten away from the whole thing here. Anyway, from wherever you're sitting right now iPad from your phone from the computer, T one d exchange.org. forward slash Juicebox. Podcast participants like you have helped to bring increased coverage for test trips, Medicare coverage for CGM, and changes to the ADA guidelines for pediatric Awan seagulls. This is a big thing that you can do in a tiny amount of time. T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox link in the show notes, links at Juicebox podcast.com. We'll start with you just introducing yourself, you know, pretty basically, and I'll ask some questions, and we'll talk and that'll sort of be it. It'll come out the light for you.

Unknown Speaker 3:35
Okay, I love it. use

Deva Katz 3:36
that word I want I want you to describe me as delightful. You say that so nicely when you introduce other people.

Scott Benner 3:42
If you if you force it, I don't know what I can do. But I'll see what happens and what happens now. Now this part is gonna end up in the podcast. What happens if you're not delightful? And the whole time I'm like, I gotta wait for this lady to say something reasonable. So I can

Deva Katz 3:53
then maybe then maybe you will post it. I don't know. There's always there's always that option. Not delightful. We have a deal. You don't have to post that. How's that?

Scott Benner 4:00
I've never not put up one episode that I recorded except for to where the people who I recorded with later, I think realized that they maybe had been much too honest. Oh, not a health issue. But other than that, it's never one one person had what I consider to be an actual breakdown while we were recording. And I suggested that we don't let anybody hear.

Deva Katz 4:25
Wow, wow. I imagine you get that a lot people get very emotional.

Scott Benner 4:31
You know, I think I think people do get emotional and and that's interesting, isn't it that you would unburden yourself to a stranger. But I'm assuming have all kinds of people around you that you know and never and never say anything to. I wonder if the podcast doesn't make people feel closer to me, because they hear me so much.

Deva Katz 4:54
Oh, that is for sure. True. I feel like you're my best friend because I don't talk to anybody about my diabetes. Everyone who knows me I was diagnosed two years ago at age 47. I'm now 49. Everybody who knows me knows me already. I don't have new friends. Now. My social group is my social group. And it's not like this is been a topic that we grew up with together. So it just never comes up. So I feel like you're my best friend, your podcast, and not exaggerating safe my life? Oh,

Scott Benner 5:21
well, we'll get to all that. And by the way, our friends were really good friends, one or two of them would get diabetes, so they could be.

Unknown Speaker 5:29
Yeah, good point.

Unknown Speaker 5:30
I don't know how we would do that. But you know,

Deva Katz 5:33
although I imagine given my age group, I imagine if anybody else got diabetes, it would more than likely

Scott Benner 5:38
be type two. You might think, right? It's crazy that Well, alright. We're getting ahead of ourselves. Introduce yourself.

Deva Katz 5:44
Okay, my name is Deva Katz. And I am a type one diabetic diagnosed two years ago, misdiagnosed, I should say, as type two at first, and three months later, properly diagnosed as type one. And I mean, what else do you want to know? I, my particularly emotional side, all of this is that when I was 14, my 12 year old sister died suddenly from type one diabetes. And that just hit like, all that just came crashing down like a ton of bricks when I got diagnosed, even though logically I know, nowadays, it's very different. I mean, we're talking back in the 80s. You know, nowadays, it's very different. I don't put on dying in my sleep. I plan on living to ripe old age of 100, you know, but it's still in the back of your head, like, Oh, my God, this is really serious. And I'm not sure how much the world really understands that. I mean, your group, your listeners know that. But let's say in my social group, I don't think people understand that this is really serious.

Scott Benner 6:46
Okay, so you've said a lot, we're gonna get and figure things out. So don't say your first name. Again. I want to make sure I pronounce correctly. Deva Deva. Okay. Eva, given where do you Where do you live? I live in Israel. born there.

Deva Katz 7:01
I was not born here. I moved here in I want to say 2000. So I've been here 20 years.

Scott Benner 7:08
Wow. Move for Can you say from where where you moved from?

Unknown Speaker 7:10
I moved from

Scott Benner 7:12
lower Manhattan. I wasn't sure if you were running from like organized crime and you didn't want to say or anything like that.

Deva Katz 7:18
I would make a fun story. No, no, no, no, I moved here. Just you know, I'm Jewish. And I just wanted to be with you know, in this room, so I'm here. Even the best health care system ever. I paid 35 bucks a month for all my diabetes needs. Wow. Yeah. No. Right to reason to move here, you

Scott Benner 7:36
know, oh, and Lieberman's lives there he has type on the CNN CORRESPONDENT for Israel.

Deva Katz 7:42
I should know him. But I don't see

Scott Benner 7:44
why he's been on the show. Maybe you could find a friend and his

Unknown Speaker 7:50
friends.

Scott Benner 7:50
Imagine. Imagine if you're crazy. And oh, and sends me a note. He's like, hey, thanks a lot for saying Dave over. There you go. Hey, she seems okay. Oh, and don't worry about it. And we're best friends. So it'll be fine.

Unknown Speaker 8:04
Exactly. I told you my best friend.

Scott Benner 8:07
Alright, let's let's go a little slow here for a second. So you brought it up. So let's figure this out. You're saying about 35 years ago, your sister passed? And so was she undiagnosed as type one? No,

Deva Katz 8:20
she was properly diagnosed. She was five I was seven. We were driving down from Manhattan to my grandparents in DC for Thanksgiving weekend. And she we stopped the car so she can pee on the side of the road. I want to say every 20 minutes. It's a long drive from Manhattan to Washington DC. And I remember it like yesterday and we got to DC and it was obvious something was wrong. And she was diagnosed here she went straight from DC they flew to Joslin she was properly diagnosed and she was taken care of to the best of you know, my parents abilities back in, you know, back in their late 70s. You know, whatever was available then she did. Of course it was urine sticks, but she was definitely being taken care of.

Scott Benner 9:06
Yeah, people weren't ignoring it. I wasn't sure if because she said she passed in her sleep. I wasn't sure if she maybe just went to DK before she was diagnosed or if she was living with it.

Deva Katz 9:15
I obviously don't know. I was young myself. So I don't know the exact details of what happened. It could have been a insulin shock. Who knows? Who knows? She was definitely managed. She was being managed to the best of my parents abilities at that time.

Scott Benner 9:32
Gotcha. So you don't know if it was a situation where it was too much insulin or not enough? I don't know. You were young. Yeah.

Deva Katz 9:41
I was young and my parents at the time we the doctors would have been okay, you know, doing more research and autopsy whatever my parents is that like, what's the difference at this point? She was gone at that point and it didn't matter and and they decided not to pursue it further. So I'm not even sure they didn't know and if they did, they just really didn't share it with me. So I have no idea. Yeah.

Scott Benner 10:00
People might not understand the 70s was a significantly different time I try to explain to my children some time as they're voicing their opinions. And I'm listening and we're having a conversation like once in a while I want to say to them, you realize my dad, mom would have never listened to anything that I thought right like I would, I would have started making a noise and they would have been like a and then just walk away from me. Right? Yeah, it's and you had a you have a lot of siblings. Is that right?

Deva Katz 10:25
Yes. I'm one of seven.

Unknown Speaker 10:27
Wow. Yeah. Your parents were probably tired.

Unknown Speaker 10:32
My parents were tired. Indeed. Indeed. No kidding.

Scott Benner 10:35
Your poor mom's uterus. You are feeding?

Deva Katz 10:41
God God bless.

Unknown Speaker 10:44
Do you have any kids? Up to two? Okay. Yeah.

Deva Katz 10:47
My son is 15. And my daughter's 10.

Scott Benner 10:50
Gotcha. Oh, wow. So they've grown up? exclusively. You had both your children in Israel. They're Israeli? Oh, that's really cool. Yeah. All right. So you, nobody else your family's ever had diabetes with the exception of you and your sister?

Deva Katz 11:06
In my immediate family? No, I have some cousins with diabetes. Some are better taking care of themselves and others. But it isn't the family. The fact that I have it wasn't a huge surprise because it is in the family. My grandfather certainly died from diabetes. It wasn't a surprise. What was so surprised for me is my age. You know, I was diagnosed at 47. Right? That I think is I mean, do you hear about that? among your popular among your listeners is that? I feel like that's pretty rare.

Scott Benner 11:35
Well, the people are diagnosed, I think at this point, I've spoken to someone diagnosed at every age between, you know, zero, and I think 66 at this point. Wow. You know, so it does happen. I don't know that. I mean, I'm sure it's more or less likely, in some, you know, swaths of of age, but I also think it's so much to do with, you know, genetics and everything. I'm gonna ask a question, if I mispronounce a word, you'll forgive me. Are you orthodox or Hasidic by any chance? I was the family

Deva Katz 12:07
being if being pinned into a corner, I would say orthodox? Oh, of course, I have no way of knowing how you are defining the word.

Scott Benner 12:13
My question is really just it's not about religion. It's it's about smaller communities where people may be married a little closer to their Oh,

Deva Katz 12:23
so you're talking about the community? And you know, the answer to that is no,

Scott Benner 12:27
gotcha, because I have a very close friend, who's a nikkie, nurse at a major major hospital. And she says that most of like, seriously, most of the real malformations that they see with newborns come from that population.

Deva Katz 12:45
Yeah, yeah, that's what would what would be called inbreeding is Yeah.

Scott Benner 12:49
I was just, I was just wondering if it was possible that I don't know why I just, I'm picking through things. So

Deva Katz 12:55
I don't think that's a factor.

Scott Benner 12:57
Gotcha. Okay. All right. So you in your note to me, you know, it was very passionate, I very much appreciate it. And you really seem to, to want to talk about the passing of your sister a little bit. And if I'm not wrong about that, I'd appreciate hearing the story, I guess. Am I wrong? Or am I wrong? You're just hard. I

Deva Katz 13:23
know, you're not wrong. That is, that is when I initially reached out to you. Because just because it was I guess I was having an emotional day, which, you know, which happens. But overall, it's not just her passing, because I've been getting with that for 40 years. But the this in general, the emotional side of diabetes, like the technical side, the medical side, what your teaching spot on, I feel like I got it, you know, my my agencies, and I want to say high fives, it's good. And it's been that way since, you know, three months after diagnosis, like it's all good. But still, I feel like I don't know if this is because I'm still dealing with the shock of it. But the motional side of it, and I don't know if that's typical for everyone who gets newly diagnosed, or I'm adding the layer of my sister dying to the south. I'm so emotional about like, someone starts talking to me, I will probably start crying. And there's no reason to, um, well, I'm healthy. I'm well taken care of. We've got excellent medical care here. Like I said, My agency is awesome. Like, there's no reason why I'm taking this so hard. And that's, I don't know what it is. It's a curse. It's just like a major change to my life, or is it the fact that I'm just like reliving my sister dying? I don't know. I don't have an answer. So it could be. You're asking me Oh, is that what I'm talking about? I have no idea. I don't know. Well, I have some general questions for you. But we don't get to that now. We have a few minutes. So anyway,

Scott Benner 14:48
I'm excited. You have questions?

Unknown Speaker 14:49
Well, obviously list.

Scott Benner 14:52
Thank you. I appreciate you being prepared. I hope you don't mind that I'm not prepared. No, but I like talking about Like this better I like kind of picking through things. Because I mean, obviously it would at best be pop psychology to say that, you know, your sister died under what probably felt like reasonably mysterious circumstances, although you could point to the diabetes and add such a formidable age for you. And you listen, you told a story in the email that she and you were in the same bedroom and had my god I said that you had? Do you want to tell me about that? Because it's private, but I mean,

Deva Katz 15:36
how many listeners Do you have these days, but we up to 3 million

Scott Benner 15:38
people are gonna hear about it. So go ahead

Deva Katz 15:42
and be open book. So we were she, she, um, she shared a bedroom, that is true. And we got into this fight. I don't remember what it was about. Although if I had to guess I'm sure it was because I was just picking a fight for no reason, because that's very much my personality. And we were fighting. And I basically told her that she can't sleep in the room, she has to go sleep in the classroom. And because she was so sweet, and just younger and just wanted to keep the peace. She left she left the room. And then she went to sleep in the guest room. And I went to wake her up for school the next day, because he did have to make the bus and, and she was obviously gone. Now I didn't know that at 14 that she was gone. I I had no way of really telling him I went to my to my mom and I said, Listen, she's not waking up. But I got to go get ready. So you deal with her. And and then the next thing I know the paramedics are in the house and you know, and that was it. So the fight was very unfortunate. My mom in a few minutes of complete lucidity, lucidity. Is that a real word? That's a word, right? It is no, it is now sadness, whatever. She was lucid for those few moments. She turned to me for the funeral. And she said there was nothing you could have done. You wouldn't have heard you wouldn't have known. This had nothing to do with her sleeping alone. And whether it's true or not, who knows? My mom said that to make me feel better. It worked, you know, and made me just take a deep breath and realize maybe she's right. Maybe she's not I don't know. But I had the opportunity to feel like maybe mom was right. Maybe there was nothing I could have done. Who knows? I'm not a doctor. I don't know. But it put it to put it to rest for at least that initial. That initial time, which was so difficult. But looking back years later, I'm not so sure. You know, people don't have seizures. I don't know what happened to her. They're not so quiet. I'm not sure what happened. Who knows? Yeah. 50 5050

Scott Benner 17:42
your head that if she had a seizure, you might have heard it and woke her up. And it definitely would have gone to your parents, maybe

Deva Katz 17:48
I maybe I definitely would have heard it. There's no way I would have slept with seizure because she said she had had some of them. She should have them. I would have known I would have known for sure.

Scott Benner 17:59
Well, I mean, listen, I this is not apples to apples, I don't think but I was incredibly close with my grandmother as I grew up. And I had a job after school. And I got home from school one day, and I was in my bedroom, changing my clothes from school to what I was going to wear to work. And I was late and not late like I was, you know, not paying attention. It was late. But it was that hard to get from school to home and then to this job on time. And the phone rang, and I picked up the phone and it was my grandmother who wanted to chat. And I would have talked to my grandmother, always, you know, and so I started to talk to her. And I just said, Grandma, I'm sorry, I have to get the work. But I don't work tomorrow. I could call you tomorrow after school. And she's like, that's great. Call me tomorrow after school. And then the next morning while she was getting ready for work, she had a stroke and she died. Wow. And I just never, you know it. It's something that bothers me to this day. And I don't know if I, you know, I understand academically that you don't control when people come and go out of the world. And there's no way to know like, you know, there's no, there's a light on your forehead that says tomorrow is your last day. So you know, but I still just think that's stupid job. Or I was making $3 an hour working at a pet shop so I could buy gas for my car so I can afford to drive to work. You know what I mean? Like it just, I could have been 15 minutes late to it. But then I stopped and think about how much amazing time we had together. And we were very close. And I mean 15 more minutes wouldn't have changed that. I don't think you know,

Deva Katz 19:39
yeah, we're all a lot smarter. In hindsight. Yeah. You know, in hindsight, we're all less smarter you you know, my kids fight now and and I bite my tongue from saying you guys shouldn't be fighting because you don't know what's going to happen. I never never said that to them. But in the back of my mind, I feel like oh my god, I wish I can give them that wisdom, you know that they should know that their behaviors. Now you If it could affect you later on, failing and being mean, and I don't say anything, because they have to figure out their own path and then let them do their thing, but but I wonder, I wonder, like, How much could have been prevented for me if my, you know, if my mom had stepped in, like, Okay, you guys have to figure this out make this makeup or figured this out, you know, we're not sleeping in the guest room. Like, I wonder my mom was hands off with all of our fights. And I understand why. But I wonder, you know, how life would have turned out differently, you know, had she not had not passed so young. But anyways,

Scott Benner 20:33
I hope you can find a way not to wonder so much because yeah, you know, stop wondering. Because you're never gonna figure it out. And it's just never gonna

Deva Katz 20:40
figure it out in the world is too busy anyways, my goodness, we're living in crazy times.

Scott Benner 20:44
Your hearts gonna be beat up worse than your mom's uterus was? Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker 20:49
good point. Good point.

Scott Benner 20:50
Well, I am sorry, that happened to you. But I do think it's important to understand cuz I'm imagining it's, it's, you know, at least imprinted on you enough that the rest of the conversation, it'll be valuable for people to know that as we move forward. So you, so you grow up and make babies and move away and do all these things. What do you do for a living?

Deva Katz 21:14
I am a logistics manager for a food import firm.

Scott Benner 21:18
Is that like a lot of making sure the trains run on time?

Deva Katz 21:23
trains is boats, like we import food from all over the world? And we supply to the major food manufacturers here and as well. So it's it's a it's boats basically.

Scott Benner 21:36
Got to be incredibly important. I mean, do you have any natural resources in Israel to to create food with

Deva Katz 21:44
to create food with? We do, we do have? We also purchase a lot we export quite a bit. I mean, my company doesn't do any export, but the country, the country does export goes, sure we export quite a bit of fruits and vegetables. That's pretty big for export, but we import whatever we need, you know, fair trade,

Scott Benner 22:01
you know, it's amazing. So not that this has nothing to do with the topic. But the way Israel has figured out how to move water around the country is Yeah, yeah. It's crazy. It's absolutely otherworldly. It's amazing. So I mean, that you can grow fruit there is kind of insane, right? Yeah. Wow. That's something okay. So that's it's an important interesting job. It did you it's important. It's

Deva Katz 22:27
also considered essential because it's food. So I've been working straight through this whole COVID thing.

Unknown Speaker 22:31
You didn't get a COVID break?

Deva Katz 22:33
Nope, not get a COVID break because people have to eat even if they're stuck at home.

Scott Benner 22:36
Yeah, no kidding. My wife has been working non stop in my dining room for seven months now.

Unknown Speaker 22:42
Seven months. Yeah, that's what we're up to her company

Scott Benner 22:44
has one of the one of the vaccinations that that they're working on. And she's Oh, wow, very diligently working on making sure that it will be safe and reported correctly and stuff like that.

Deva Katz 22:57
Let me on behalf of the entire planet. Looking forward to the vaccine. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 23:00
I look over there. And oh, my God, I hope they're getting close to this. But anyway, okay, so you.

Scott Benner 23:10
You're diagnosed with type one at 45 years old?

Unknown Speaker 23:13

I appreciate you making me younger

Scott Benner 23:16
than I am. Listen, you can be however old you want, if you want, but 47 I'm sorry. What were the first signs

Deva Katz 23:24
for signs, you know how everyone says how they don't notice the signs in their, in their kids, when they like as a parent, notice the signs. Everyone on your podcast said that they missed all the signs, you think you'd think that I would have noticed the signs in myself. But my, my son, who's now 15, at the time was just turning 13. So we were planning his Bar Mitzvah was a big glorious affair. And I was just really, really involved. And I work full time at a very intense job. So everything was just really busy and stressful and hectic. And I felt quite rundown. And they blamed it on my poor kids Bar Mitzvah and the athletes Bar Mitzvah. And I just like I'm not covering how people make affairs all the time. People throw parties all the time and why but just not feeling recovered. I just felt like I was rundown. I kept blaming this poor kid. And and I just didn't, I felt like I was just run down from working too hard. Yeah. And then the night that I got up four times to use the bathroom. I said, that is not okay. I'm finished nursing. There's no reason why I'm up four times in one night, I'm done with that I'm done with infants. And that day, went to the doctor and I said, You know, I think I diabetes. He said, Well, what do you think that and I said, because I got up last night four times to be and he said, well, let's have a look. And it was four seconds later and it's like No, you do have diabetes. How much

Scott Benner 24:43
of the of the road trip to Washington from when you were a kid? Did you remember that? We're now

Unknown Speaker 24:49
remember that? Oh, yeah. That was very vivid.

Deva Katz 24:53
When I woke up that morning, after going to the bathroom four times that night, I knew well, it would have been better had I noticed You know, four weeks prior, because I wouldn't have felt so lousy but Tom, I actually got to the doctor, and I lost 30 pounds, which, for the dress I was wearing in the apartments folk was awesome. I looked amazing, which was lovely. But I should have realized that this is not okay. It's not okay. So last time I went to the doctor, I was really feeling very lousy

Scott Benner 25:22
30 pounds. Is that a significant amount off of anyone's frame?

Deva Katz 25:25
Yeah, well, I'm four foot 10.

Scott Benner 25:28
Well, but it still it just doesn't matter. It's, it's a big chunk of weight in a short amount of time. And if you didn't make some significant change to your couch, your caloric intake. I don't think that you would see that I got so

Deva Katz 25:40
I was exercising like crazy because I wanted to fit his cats. Okay, so I was exercising quite a bit. So I thought, okay, great with a good job. And I was watching what I ate, because like I said, I was planning for this party. So I, I assumed I was doing a really good job. And obviously, looking back now that's ridiculous. No one, no one looks back at it doesn't make any sense. It's just,

Scott Benner 26:03
you know what you can tell you're from another generation. Because if you were younger, you'd immediately put yourself on Instagram and call yourself a workout influencer?

Deva Katz 26:11
No, no, no, I knew something was wrong. But I didn't connect the dots because I was so I was busy and work was very busy. Work is always busy. And, and. And I went to the doctor, and when he said, Oh, yeah, you have diabetes, and like, Okay, I'm not at all surprised what happens now he says, well, that you have to go to the emergency room just to make sure you're not in decay, which I wasn't. But he just needed to rule that out. And apparently he couldn't do that in his office that has to be done hospital. I don't understand that. But apparently that's the case. And the hospital was within two days stay in the hospital. And they were convinced it was type two. And they said Why are you convinced of that? Like I'm presenting as type one. I'm not stupid. Like, I know what the signs

Unknown Speaker 26:52
are? My family? Yeah.

Deva Katz 26:55
Yeah. I like arguing with the doctor and like, why, why you're saying that I need it. Like, I know what I need. I need insulin. No, no. Metformin will be good for now. You'll see your family doctor, he'll follow up.

Scott Benner 27:08
Do you think just based on your, your body construction and your age? They just assumed it was type two?

Deva Katz 27:14
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. For sure it was the age, because the presentation was completely type one. So because the medical system here is all connected. My GP who sent me to the hospital, saw my discharge papers The next day, like they get electronically transferred. So I saw them right away. And he called me he said, You need to see an endocrinologist immediately. I've sent your file over, he's gonna call you for an appointment. And it was it was clear and acknowledges right away said no, no, we have to test you for antibodies. This is this is probably not type two. And right away, it was properly diagnosed

Scott Benner 27:51
that quickly so the hospital got it wrong. And

Deva Katz 27:57
because it was a weekend, and if you know a little bit about Israel, it was a weekend during the high holiday season. So it's like Christmas in New York. No one's working between Christmas and New Year's. It's the same thing here during high holiday season. And it was a regular doctor on call wasn't an endo in the hospital who saw me and what took so long here. And this is I don't want I don't want to say it's a flaw on the system. But although the endocrinologist over the phone had ordered the antibody test because he he guessed that that what was going on. I didn't actually see him for another two months. It took a long time because our government collapse that we have immediate elections, they also seem and then he got sick and I'm sick a whole story. So took two months and every and I'm just feeling worse and worse and worse. And two months later that it was off. So you're saying quickly, I wish it was quicker, but I guess I can't complain. Cuz I know people have it much worse,

Scott Benner 28:53
though, like so it went from Hey, you have type two to immediately No, no, that's type one to two months to get insulin.

Unknown Speaker 28:59
Yes.

Unknown Speaker 29:00
Were you in da by then?

Deva Katz 29:02
I was not. I guess I must have been honeymooning. Huh. Well, that's been I don't know. I don't know, because I was definitely not in TK Definitely not.

Scott Benner 29:11
So this $35 healthcare, cheap, but not quick.

Deva Katz 29:16
So it's it's Yeah, exactly. I should say that it? Yes. Yeah, it's not quick. It could be quicker. I think because the discharge papers said type to the medical system, the way it's written into the system. Didn't take it as urgent. had anybody written down on any paper. This is a definite type one, it would have been treated with urgency. It would have been dealt with much, much quicker but because the system is all connected. Anybody who looked at my file scope like to Okay, whatever shall wait another week, and then that just kept happening and the equipment just kept being pushed off until I finally got to see him. I'm always so I got to see him after two months, not even not three months. When they wanted me to come in, because at that point I had gotten the antibody blood tests back and it was well over 500. And I and I knew what that meant, because I had been, you know, online reading and I've been listening to you and I knew what that meant. So I call the nurses office and I said, I need to see this doctor immediately because I need insulin now should know you on Metformin, it takes a while you'll still feel better. It's okay. And I still listen, sweetheart, open up my phone, because I know you have access to it. Tell me what you're seeing. And then she's like, Oh, you're right. You come in today, one o'clock.

Unknown Speaker 30:32
No kidding. I was there. There's a you found a podcast before you found insulin.

Deva Katz 30:36
I found a podcast before I found insulin. How'd

Unknown Speaker 30:39
that happen?

Deva Katz 30:40
How did that happen? Because, um, had that happen? I guess I wanted to learn as much as possible so that when I would get to this appointment, I would be prepared with all my questions. Because otherwise you go in and you feel like you're being talked at. And the doctor was just telling you what to do. And I didn't want a situation where now you have to wait another two months before get to see him again. With any follow up questions. I just wanted to have everything straight in my head, so that I could ask the right questions. And thank God, you know, I went in there, I probably had four or five pages of notes of questions. And we just bang them all out. Because I want you to really understand because that is why six weeks later, I had an emergency that went down from 9.5. That diagnosis to 5.7.

Scott Benner 31:28
That's really good. Because I knew what I was doing it because you you had practice ahead of time, like you really made sure you understood long before you got there. That's it. That's it That's really industrious, love you seriously, because I think it's where you I don't know what to say here. Like, I don't know how to guess. Were you more or less afraid of it because of your sisters.

Deva Katz 31:50
I was I was more afraid of it. I was sure I was more afraid. I was 100% more afraid. And I said it is it's an I have small children. And it is my responsibility to see them to adulthood. I cannot afford not to be around for them. And and I was for sure from fear that I needed to make sure that I was very well, I'll tell you what else helped me because the hospital was convinced I was type two, I went to see a dietitian for type two, within two days of being in the hospital. So she gave me a whole regimen of of how to treat type two in terms of low carb and low glycemic and all that stuff. So right away, I was eating in a much in a much better way. No insulin, but I was eating so much better. Right away. So I just jumped right in. Yeah.

Scott Benner 32:42
Is that something you kept up the kind of dieting style? Yeah,

Deva Katz 32:45
yeah. Yeah. Because it was I was doing it for two months before I got the insulin. Okay, two months, I can do it. And you know what it's working. And every so often if I if I'm like, I have to have a piece of cheesecake, I do it but it's really not the norm because it's not worth it. It's not worth the headache, the hassle, and it's just not worth it. For me. I prefer eating low carb and low glycemic although I do eat but I it's just easier to calculate and among MDI also, and I don't know if that would be different. If I switched to a pump. I don't know, what do you hear from your listeners you

Scott Benner 33:17
feel like? So you're doing you're doing lower carb, you're saying more out of a management style that it's easier to control because there's not as much fluctuation and glycemic load from foods. But you're wondering if you had a pump and you could inject more frequently. If you try more cheesecake, I'm assuming cheesecake is the thing you miss the most.

Deva Katz 33:39
They can miss the most indeed. So yeah, so that actually was a question on the statement. So do you have an answer? Well,

Scott Benner 33:45
I think that it's interesting. I just yesterday, I've been doing this series of like how he conversations getting people on that have different dieting styles. And I just interviewed Mike yesterday. It'll be up before this, but hasn't been up yet. Who is eating in a completely keto lifestyle. And he described that he had had diabetes, you know, his whole life. And it was fairly poorly controlled. He was diagnosed a very long time ago. And you know, insulin wasn't the same and testing wasn't the same. And he got to a point where he said that his doctor told him he was diagnosed so long ago that he wasn't going to live past 30. That was his prognosis, getting diagnosed. And when he got the 30 he was out of shape and not doing well. And a new doctor said to him, like, you know, basically, man, you got to pull this together, you're not going to make it much longer. And so he got serious about it. dieted himself down, you know, took care of his blood sugar's more accurately, but it wasn't until he found the podcast that he really figured everything out. And then he got to the point where he really understood his insulin was doing great had a very much lower a one C, but then made a switch to keto. And, you know, which is you know, the way he described it. It's You know, there's, you know, he's I think he's got 29 carbs a day he eats and it all sounds like it comes from from vegetables. And his blood sugars now are just much more stable. And he says he doesn't miss those foods anymore. But But the minute that some of the that he tried to introduce something Maxi didn't even feel well. So I don't know, I think it's person to person like he doesn't seem to miss it. But if you did, then, you know, if you find yourself missing certain foods at some point, and you need to be more aggressive or or stagger insulin differently through meals. I mean, maybe I don't know you maybe if you had a pump on you'd take a shot at it? I'm not sure.

Deva Katz 35:42
I don't know, I can't handle even wearing earrings. So I can't imagine walking around with a pump. That's what's stopping me unless it was a great benefit towards for it. Like, what I have to be able to know what problem I'm solving that a pump would actually be better because I don't mind them the I the mind shots, you know, I can give six, seven shots a day and I'm okay with that. If I need it, you know, I actually don't mind the shots. I'm if the pump would help me keep better control than I would then I would absolutely try it. But I'd have to really be convinced to that. And that's why I'm looking to ask you to convince me but I am still trying to figure figure that out. Because I really, like I said I can't even stand wearing earrings. I really find anything attached to me unpleasant and I do wear I wear a Libra How do you pronounce it? So I do wear that which is what they call here a CGM. And and and I feel like I can't live without that. And I'm not willing to give that up. So I kind of suffer through that even though I find it very unpleasant. But I do it because I I feel like that's the best way to manage. Yeah, there's

Scott Benner 36:43
a trade off you feel like that you don't like wearing something but the benefit outweighs your desire, not the worst. I mean, I mean, listen, I think I think a pump is is, you know, isn't it gives you a couple of advantages that you can't have over MDI, right, it gives you the ability to manipulate your Basal insulin. So right now you're putting in your Basal insulin probably once a day, and it's just working the way it works. But with a pump, you don't take that insulin, that slow acting insulin anymore, you have your fast acting insulin that's working both as your meal insulin as your basil. And so you can tell it, you know, between this hour and this hour, I get, I don't know, point five units an hour of basil. But, you know, my blood sugar tries to get high every night between 3am and 5am. So maybe from 2am to 5am. I'm going to raise my basil from point five 2.8. I don't know like something like that, you'd have that control over that. You'd also be able to take in protein. I don't know if you're noticing that protein as its digested gets transferred into glucose.

Unknown Speaker 37:49
So much later,

Scott Benner 37:50
right. So you could you know the way Mike described it in a way others have in the past. He eats his whole go keto meal and doesn't Bolus till he's done, but sometimes has to create what they call an extended Bolus to stretch that insulin out over kind of the impact time of the of the protein rise. And that's one thing you can't do with MDI. MDI, you'd have to inject in a little bit and inject a little bit later and try to,

Deva Katz 38:18
you know, for the meals I inject could be multiple times for one meal based on what I'm eating, I get that for the Basal Is there any way to manipulate Basal with MDI? Not possible? Well,

Scott Benner 38:30
there is if you It depends on which based on which one you're using. So the much newer ones are so effective, like baz lagar, Bayes lagar. And there's a couple of them but if you're using like leaven, Mir Lantus, the older ones, do you know which one you're using,

Deva Katz 38:46
I'm using something called TJ Oh, I don't know if that's a brand name,

Scott Benner 38:49
or it's a newer one. And so if it's covering real well, for you over 24 hours, then there's not much to do those older bezels don't seem to last the whole 24 hours, even though they're supposed to serve some people split their dose every 12 hours to create a more kind of even blanket of Basal insulin. That was really the only thing about manipulating basil that I would consider and it would be with those older insulins not the one you're using. I don't think so. I don't know. I guess I don't I don't think I could talk you into wanting to pump. I don't I don't think you need to be talking to it.

Deva Katz 39:24
I I want to I'm still looking into it. I'm so I'm thinking about it, because I'm wondering if there will be unreal benefit, then I would do it. But I'd like to see my graph even better. How do you when you define, you know, in range,

Unknown Speaker 39:39
are you if it's

Deva Katz 39:41
going up and down, but it's within the range? You call that a spike?

Scott Benner 39:46
So what's your Okay,

Deva Katz 39:48
what's your um, set at um, set between 70 and 130? That's my high mid low 70 to 130.

Scott Benner 39:54
And your would you consider your bouncing meaning? Do you have to stop the rise with insulin and then stop the food with or non stop the fall with food? Or is it

Deva Katz 40:04
in within within that range within 70 to 130? Would you? Would you consider that at all a spike?

Unknown Speaker 40:13
I mean, how often how frequently I'm

Deva Katz 40:15
trying to avoid spectra, you want to be as straight as possible. So when you define a street is the street mean anything within my my range that I've set? Which street mean, a straight line with a ruler? Like my Basal overnight is a straight line like a ruler, obviously, during the day, is my goal even to get to that point? Is that possible?

Scott Benner 40:35
So here's how I think of it. And Jenny, if you've listened, any of the pro tip episodes in general, say the same thing you're looking for gentle rolling hills, not sharp ups and sharp downs. And a person whose pancreas does work could see a spike, you know, 130, after a particularly heavily heavy carb meal could even go to 140 if there's like a lot of sugar in there. But of course, their blood sugar is gonna go up and kind of gently roll back down again and get flat. So the variability, the up and the down is not great for you. But up and down between 70 and 130. I mean, I have to be honest, I think Arden's graph, mimics yours in that times away from food, she's incredibly stable at, you know, lower blood sugar's 85. Overnight, usually. And then when she gets the food, you know, depending on on the impact of that food, we could see a spike. I don't think of a spike. I think a spike in my mind is 160. So the numbers not maybe as important as the percentage it moves, you know, so if she's from 80 to 160, all the sudden her blood sugar has doubled. And that to me is a spike. You know what I mean? Like anything that you can use on after that is still a spike. It's just more drastic. If Arden is at when she eats and rolls up to 120 and comes back to 80. Again, I'm okay with that. And I think there are people who would tell you no, you can accomplish that absolutely flat, straight line. And I think they're right. I think if you don't eat carbs, you absolutely can. I think if you are managing blood sugars in a younger person whose body maybe doesn't have all the hormones and other things going on, I think you can I you know, but so is it, I think then that becomes a life balance for you. And you have to say, Do I want to not eat carbs ever again to have this if I'm okay with that, then that's the right thing. If I want cheesecake sometimes then maybe I'm low carb most of the time, but not, you know around this and I have to understand that that cheesecake is going to try to make my blood sugar go up, and I'm going to have to counterbalance it with more insulin. Like it's a personal preference, honestly.

Unknown Speaker 42:54
So here's your question,

Scott Benner 42:55
please. I think that's what we're gonna do, guys.

Deva Katz 42:57
That's what we're doing. No, no, you've answered a bunch of them so far. Straight out. One, how could you say you don't you hardly think about diabetes, you say oh, no, with my Dexcom and my Omnipod? Are? How do you think about it at all? what you're describing out? In my mind feels like to keep that line really straight? You have not you one would have to be thinking about diabetes all the time.

Scott Benner 43:19
Well, how long have you had type one now?

Unknown Speaker 43:23
Exactly. Two years, two years?

Scott Benner 43:24
Is it my today's not your day? Is it?

Deva Katz 43:26
No, no, September 13. So just two years at one month

Scott Benner 43:30
times people end up on on their anniversary date. And so that's why I like to use my anniversary when you set that up on purpose.

Unknown Speaker 43:39
solely. How how indeed.

Scott Benner 43:45
I think it's, I mean for speaking for myself. There certainly has been many points in my life when I would not have been able to say that and and saying that would have been a lie. Now it's not but it's it's just it's an amount of time that I've been doing it for so long that it just does what I what I want it to do because I'm not making a lot of mistakes. And I don't mean mistakes in a judgy way. I just mean you know, we get the insulin right for foods. The basil settings are where they belong. We see things coming like stress and anxiety and handle them prior like Arden took a PSAT the other day. And she's been you know, going to school from home for ever now it feels like it's but she had to go into the building yesterday for the PSAT. So now all of a sudden we experience feet on the floor like she got up in the morning. She had some adrenaline going tissues rushing around going to school. We Bolus right away a little bit of insulin coming out of bed for that that little bump, and a short time later when we were in the car. And heading to the school. I looked in her blood sugar was 115 ish, like in that area. And I looked and saw an up kind of motion in her blood sugar, and we put more insulin in. So I put in insulin with a 115 blood sugar going into a sap. And I guarantee you most people wouldn't do that. No, right? No. And but if they didn't, what would happen is her blood sugar would keep going up. And it would end up be 150 or so. And then it would sit there for a couple hours because I'd say What would I say, Oh, well, she's taking her sad. I don't want to bother, right? Like it would be that whole kind of freefall happens then? And none of it happened. Because I did the right thing at the right time. I know what the right thing at the right time is because I have a ton of experience. And no, I didn't think about it until the exact moment where we were driving down the street. And I thought, Oh, this is the part in the drive to school where we usually look at Arden's blood sugar. And so I said, Hey, you'll pull your phone out real quick, what's your blood sugar? And she told me, I was like, let's put some insulin in. And she did it. And that was it. I think that whole exchange took 20 seconds. And I didn't think about it after that, because I know it's going to work. And I have settings on her Dexcom in places where it will alarm before anything goes wrong. So that we can, if there are smaller adjustments still left to be made, they can be made before things get out of whack. So I never let them get to that point. And if they do, and they will, at some point, at some point, I will mess up or just something happens. When things get out of whack one way or the other. I'm incredibly good at fixing them quickly. But you will be too at some point.

Deva Katz 46:45
I hope so I feel like it's taking up a lot of my emotional headspace. And, again, I don't know how much of that is related to my sister. And how much of that is just because I'm new. And I'm learning. And maybe I'm learning a lot all at once. You know, I was on your podcast. Like I said before I even had insulin like right away. am I learning everything? And it's just taking up a lot of my headspace. And I hope that goes away. Because it's, it's too much.

Scott Benner 47:08
Yeah, no, and I think it does, I think it lessens as it as time passes, I think it's about having experiences, I genuinely believe that you have an experience, you react to it. The worst thing you can do is say to yourself, oh, like that's just diabetes, that's going to keep happening, I'm always going to have these experiences. Because if you look closely enough, you'll see what happened, you'll see that you have to Bolus a 115 going into a test because the test is going to be here there's going to be some anxiety with the test. Or how about the fact that she's rolling into this test, and it's just gonna be sedentary for a while. I know sedentary takes more insulin. You know, there's there's all kinds of like little things that you don't have to like, I'm not looking up into a mental whiteboard to finish that figure things out anymore. It's just the scenario tells my brain what to do. I don't know if that makes sense or not. It's like two plus two out in the in the background, a conversation that you weren't in, you'd think subconsciously for, you know, like so I think, go into school for a test early in the morning insulin. And I know how much to use, because I've done it before. And our bases are really great. And that is a part of it.

Deva Katz 48:30
Right? Well, I know my I feel like my Basal is correct, because like I said, I can measure it with a ruler, like it is a straight line overnight. And I wish I could go all day fasting, you know, I wonder if that's

Unknown Speaker 48:41
a possibility. You

Deva Katz 48:41
know, I wonder about that. But that's what your podcast has given me. It's given me the courage to know, you know what you're doing like that in the back of my mind. It's, it's like I say that I have all this anxiety, but I also have a certain calmness that comes from

Unknown Speaker 48:57
some knowledge,

Deva Katz 48:59
feeling like, I know, I know what I'm doing. I and you just sit down. And you reminded me You just said now two plus two equals four? Well, because everyone knows that. And when I was first diagnosed, you didn't

Unknown Speaker 49:09
know that.

Deva Katz 49:10
I was not I had, I was listening to five different podcasts. And two years later, yours is the only one I'm still listening to. And one of them I dropped when she said, Oh, it was diabetes, two plus two doesn't equal four. You know, two plus two, I think what was it you one of your guests said someone said it two plus two equals a banana. And I just felt like, Oh no, that doesn't make any sense at all. Like, that's just not true. Like sometimes things go wrong, but there's always a reason why it goes wrong.

Scott Benner 49:35
But you understand why people feel that way. And so to why and then with with limited knowledge and a vast misunderstanding of how insulin works, it would be very easy to think that it's completely random. And it's it has been I think until this podcast, very un-pc to suggest otherwise. I think I am the first person that I know in a modern diabetes space who said, Look, you, you can't just sit here and act like this is all random and you have no control over it whatsoever, because then it just gets worse and worse and worse. And I'm not saying that you can be completely in control of diabetes or insulin. That's obviously not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there are a lot of things that are happening to people that they don't know why. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a reason why. And they often make incredibly reasonable decisions that are 100% wrong. And and my best example of this is always a person comes, you know, onto the web board, or they contact me privately or something. And they're like, look at this graph, my kids blood sugar, I'm always low. And then you look and I say, well, we're all these lows after meals. Yes. All of your stability time is high. Like, whenever you're stable. You're stable in the 140s, the two hundreds, and they're like, yeah, I said, well, you you seems like you need more basil and so on. No, no, no, you don't understand. I'm always low. And I'm like, No, that's not what I think is happening. Here's what I think is happening. I think you don't have enough Basal insulin, because you don't have enough Basal insulin. You're overcompensating at mealtimes with way too much meal insulin, you're putting it in Miss timing it using too much your blood sugar shooting way up. And then it comes crashing down. For some reason. The only part you see when you're trying to diagnose it is the crashing down part. Why don't you see the way up part. And so the lows, so make people frightened that they can't possibly believe it. And then I just did this this week with an 11 year old boy doubled his basil. Kids. Basil is point five, we made his basil one. Mom's like, No, no, that's not gonna work. I was like, Look, you don't have to do it. It's your kid. I was like, but what I'm telling you is want to try and see what happens. By the time we had it all figured out in 36 hours, by the way, remotely, I'm not with them, okay. 36 hours later, this kid's blood sugars are terrific. They are amazing. And all of the extra insulin she was using correcting around meals and causing lows. That's all in the basil now. And now she's not using that much insulin at meals, and everything is better. And it turned out, it's the same amount of insulin in a 24 hour period, it was just all in the wrong place.

Unknown Speaker 52:28
Wow. So

Deva Katz 52:30
I hope to get I want to get to a point where it's seamless, because what you're describing just sounds like an incredible amount of thought process which we do what we have to do, but it's it's taken up too much of my wife and and I don't want to be that person who's completely consumed by by that.

Scott Benner 52:46
But here's the good news. And I think I mean this. I already put the effort into it.

Unknown Speaker 52:54
sharing it, and I

Scott Benner 52:54
just explained it, I think as simply as it can be explained that

Unknown Speaker 52:58
that's true.

Scott Benner 53:00
And so if someone hears that, and says, Well, no, that's not right. I mean, there's nothing I can do about that. And I might not be right. And by the way, that might not be everyone's situation. There are some people whose, you know, Basil is way too strong. And they're constantly eating and causing spikes with the eating. But it's all about the same six problems just jumbled around in different places. And I can see it now because I've looked at it so frequently. And I think the podcast, I think the pro tip episodes of this podcast, are about the best information around about using type one dive about using insulin for Type One Diabetes that exists anywhere, I think it is the most digestible and easy to consume. And I I would think that anyone who listened through those protip series got a firm grasp of it could have anyone seen the sexes in literally no time?

Unknown Speaker 53:56
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Benner 53:57
Yeah. So that but the other thing here is to you seem like a bit of a perfectionist. Could that be true?

Deva Katz 54:05
I wanted my daytime to be like my my daytime graph look like my nighttime drive, and it doesn't Far from it far from it. And I don't know if that's even attainable. Maybe have to just focus like what you said down which is new information for me on the percentage of the jump and not drop itself. Maybe that's worth focusing on.

Unknown Speaker 54:23
Well,

Unknown Speaker 54:24
I'm what's interesting,

Scott Benner 54:25
I want to say like, it doesn't look like overnight, but you're not going above 130 Is that correct?

Unknown Speaker 54:33
Ah,

Deva Katz 54:34
I'm about 7078 or 80% in range. So I am a little bit over 130 but not not a lot but I am sometimes I'd like it to be less I'd love to be 90% in range I want to be 100% range. You

Scott Benner 54:48
know what I think you will I think that you absolutely well, but it's it's gonna if I'm guessing I can't see your your your numbers right? but my guess is Is that if you concentrate now? Well, let me ask this question first overnight, you said you're nice and steady, nice and steady were

Unknown Speaker 55:08
What? 1995?

Scott Benner 55:10
Okay, so nice and steady. 95. Beautiful. Let's assume that that basil is really pretty close. Okay, I could make an argument for 85. But whatever. Now, we're next morning, we show up your your 9095 95. You eat, you go to 131 4150. You come back down again. You're 95 again after the meal is over two, three hours later. Yes. Pretty much. Yes. Hello, yes, you probably just need a tiny bit more insulin for your meal. Maybe it needs to be timed slightly better. But you're very close to begin with. Can you picture that rolling Hill in your mind?

Deva Katz 55:48
I'm trying to

Scott Benner 55:49
Yeah. And you just if if, if you eat and your blood sugar shoots straight up, comes back down and goes right back to 95. Again, later, you did not Pre-Bolus the impact of the of the carbs well enough, right? You didn't give the insulin time to get working before it had to fight with the carbs. If you put your insulin in and eat, and your blood sugar goes up very gradually, very gradually and it kind of stays up there and never comes back. And you have to put in a little more insulin to bring it down your Pre-Bolus was probably pretty good. He didn't use quite enough insulin.

Unknown Speaker 56:25
Right? Wow. Yeah, I hear you.

Scott Benner 56:28
I hear if it shoots up and stays up. Not enough insulin, not enough. Pre-Bolus. It's just there's and these aren't hard and fast concrete rules. They're just great places to begin diagnosing what's happening.

Deva Katz 56:42
Wow, okay, I wrote that down.

Unknown Speaker 56:45
Oh, yeah,

Scott Benner 56:46
you take notes, you blow my ego way up. Don't do that. Or just don't tell me at the very least,

Deva Katz 56:49
oh, I shouldn't know why you're busy saving lives here. And I'm serious. And, and I have an excellent dietitian. And I have an excellent and I'm really happy. But somehow this doesn't come up in those conversations, you know, the look of my graphic like, Oh, you know, 78% of means you're doing awesome, you know, good for you gold sticker, which is nice. But why can it be better? Yeah, well, I wonder if their standards are too low. Like,

Scott Benner 57:12
well, don't you? I mean, for you, because you have, you have more desire, right to do better. But you have to always have to think that those people are, they're dealing with masses of people at a time. And they don't have they don't have a way to know who they're speaking to. Right. So it's it's a, it's a much different situation. They can't just give, you know, they can't give. I usually say ninja level information. But I was thinking maybe Israeli army level situation for this. But they can't give ninjas information to people who would know how to use it. And they also don't know if their basil is correct data. And they don't know sometimes I hear back from people who are like, I talked to my doctor, you don't understand what I'm saying. I moved my basil up, he yelled at me, said you're going to get low, but I'm not low. Then I showed him I'm not low. And he still said, you're going to get low. This person now I believe is working with outdated information or doesn't have a good firm grasp about how insulin works. How is that doctor going to give you good advice about how to change your Pre-Bolus time by a few minutes to stop at 130 spike, they're going to look at a 130 spike and go this is perfect.

Deva Katz 58:29
And because that's exactly what I'm being told this is perfect. And I appreciate it. You know, I love a little gold sticker. It's adorable. But it just and I wonder if part of him is also feeling like okay, because of my age, you know, by the time the negative effects of you know, high glucose really affects me, you know?

Scott Benner 58:46
I don't know. Oh, you feel maybe you might he might be thinking it won't matter.

Deva Katz 58:51
Exactly. I wonder what exactly this might like maybe with a kid, you'd be more aggressive because you want them to have a really long full life and you don't want the effects of you know, the high blood sugars to hit them when you're still you know, in the in their prime but by me, so I guess she'll be at what's the difference? Yeah, I wonder if that's like the attitude for older people?

Unknown Speaker 59:10
I don't know. I don't know.

Scott Benner 59:11
I can tell you this. I've spoken to I believe I've spoken to 1000s of people about their blood sugar's at this point. And you're going to be okay. I can tell when I'm talking to people six months from now, you're gonna send me another note and you're gonna be like, Oh my god, Scott. I listened to more of the podcast and you're still my best friend. And my blood sugar's I figured out how to stop that spike now. And I'm still on MDI and it's going great or I got a pump and I that's how I you're you're going to figure it out. I think most of this is is information and drive like a drive to do it. And avoiding the the drama that comes with it because I think that every time you get sucked into the drama, you miss you miss the lessons. You know what I mean? Like when you're busy running around yelling, oh my god, my blood sugar, it always does this, this sucks. It's terrible. I hate diabetes. While you're doing that you're missing what's happening right in front of you, that is the answer to how to fix it next time. And then you just have to have that experience again until you finally shut up and pay attention and, and see what happened.

Deva Katz 1:00:19
So here's what we're, I don't get billed well enough on my experiences, which are right in front of me. And I'm gonna be actively working on this going low. And I'm sure this is across. I'm sure this is for other people as well. I can't imagine I'm only not out there who feels this way. It's terrifying. But feeling low and struggling to shake. It's so unpleasant. And so scary. I always now is I don't say always, I'm getting better. But I often overcorrect. It's like, okay, because I'm not feeling well in that moment. And so okay, if I don't eat all this, right, now, I'm gonna die, which is, of course, the feeling, you

Scott Benner 1:00:53
know, go into your body telling you, we need carbs, do it now Hurry

Deva Katz 1:00:57
up, if you don't eat so much. You know, this little bit there, there's a limit. And I'm still trying to like, sit on my hands and like, tell my husband, okay, hold me back. Because I don't want more. Because I know I ate enough. And I just need to wait 10 minutes, I'll be fine. And I'm still working on that. But there's a good example of, you know, what's going to happen. And you've been through this and you should learn your lesson. And yet here I am intelligent adult, not learning my lesson. And and I would like to feel like, wow, experiences should be imprinted in my brain. So they don't have to think about it so much. And I'm not there yet. I'm still thinking all the time. And experiences are not a seamless, and I want to get to the point where they will be and hopefully so

Scott Benner 1:01:37
yeah, and I have to say that if you're going to be slow. On one aspect of this, that's a good one to be slow on. You know what I mean? Like it's a real case, it could be a real safety situation, you don't want to just like, Can you imagine sitting there with a juice in your hand going now? I'm not going to and then pass out? Because you know what I mean? Because you're not you're not sure how to handle it yet. I mean, listen, at this point, I've seen my daughter's blood sugar tried to get low, so many times that I can like, you know, when people talk about, like I was low all night, I couldn't get up. That only happens like, twice a year here. Because when I see the low, I know how to impact it. And so once you learn how to do it, and when I say learn, I mean 100% understand how to do it, not just like I've done it three times, and I think I'm good at it now. You know, but like, really, you've got six, eight months, you've stopped dozens and dozens of lows. You can see on your on your data, especially if you're in a glucose monitor, right? You can see the pitch of falls. And you can figure it out, like, Listen, I can, I can correct an incredibly high blood sugar with a massive amount of insulin and introduce food that stops the insulin from creating a low. And I didn't learn that in two years, just so you know. It took it took longer than that.

Deva Katz 1:03:04
But at the low gets corrected much faster because of the large amount of insulin and then you give food how much later

Scott Benner 1:03:13
repeat that I didn't hear the first two words.

Deva Katz 1:03:15
Okay, my question was, you obviously gave a lot of insulin upfront because you wanted to be aggressive to treat the low. But now you have too much insulting now you have to give food, how much time did you wait between A and B?

Scott Benner 1:03:25
So there's the thing, I can't tell you that I can see it. But I can't tell you it's all feeling. I just look at that graph. And I'm like, now, and it's it's, it's just the art, it's it's not science, I'm sure there's a science to it. I'm sure that there's someone who could figure it out, I am not that person. And there's also a ton of variables in front of it that you don't have for your equation. And if there weren't, you wouldn't be 250 to begin with. You don't I mean, because once you're once you're 200, or 250, or 300, or 400, you've bought something so incredible. Incredibly, you can't possibly diagnose what you've botched. And so my idea there is a bunch of insulin for the number. And we all know that even when you do that it takes forever to fall down. But we need food in the future. So why don't we put in the bunch of insulin for the number and the insulin for the food and then catch the drop with the meal. And that's that's one of the ways that I crush high blood sugars. But I wouldn't tell somebody to do that. Unless they were really practiced and incredibly confident. And I also it's not something I would do without a glucose monitor as well. Because but but I can see the pitch in the line as it's dropping. And I have a feeling for time and distance and how much insulin when you introduce the food and you know, and then the goal is to bring that blood sugar in for like a smooth landing like a plane just down and flat and I am I'm pretty good at it. And other people are too who are listening. And you will be one day as well.

Deva Katz 1:05:04
I hope so. That is that is totally my goal. I have a last question on my list, which we didn't touch on. Have you heard of mine, your listeners, that a sensor is more accurate on one part of their body than another?

Scott Benner 1:05:18
I think that people's devices are person to person about where they get their best. Like, you'll hear people say, like, I put my pump on my thigh, it's terrific. And the next person's like, Oh, my thigh doesn't work. You know, I love the back of my arm, I get bad absorption. They're like, it's I think it's, you know, it's about that sensor wire finding that interstitial fluid. And, you know, and working there as best as possible. So you're looking for, you know, Meteor places, maybe places that it's not being pulled and torque laid on those kind of situations. But yeah, I would truly believe that you'll find places on your body where that libri will work better than others.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:00
Yeah, yeah. 100%.

Deva Katz 1:06:02
That's not unusual. I, I've been looking it up. And I haven't seen much written about that. But I was wondering about that, because my my right side is definitely not as accurate as my left side,

Scott Benner 1:06:13
I think it's important to remember that when these products come to market, that the FDA requires them to test it in areas and prove it in areas. And that that is a time consuming process. And if it wasn't a time consuming process, I wonder if they wouldn't test it in more areas. Meaning, I wonder if there aren't areas on some people that would work better than the FDA approved areas for other people. And if maybe you don't have to maybe create your own little science experiment to figure it out. I always bring up Chris Freeman, he's a former Olympic cross country skier has been on the show a couple times. The man has the body fat of a piece of wood. And, and I I've seen him where his on the pod and his Dexcom on his chest. Wow. So that's where he found that it worked for. Wow, yeah. You know, okay, yeah, figure it out. I think that most of this is figure it out. Like when people say to me how long how much I'm like, I don't know, figure it out, try this much, then try more and try a little sooner, a little later. Like, you got a figure if you're waiting for someone to tell you do this, in this exact amount at this exact time. And it's going to go perfectly. If you're expecting that you are misunderstanding how insulin works. You know,

Deva Katz 1:07:31
that was one of the first lines of yours that like that stuck with me where you said, I don't know more. And since I've heard that you you've said it, you know, a bunch of times, like it comes up a lot. Like I don't know, just more Yeah. And that stuck with me, because that's just how you have to do it. Don't be afraid. Be courageous, just do more. And then we'll figure it out later.

Scott Benner 1:07:52
In my mind, David, it just makes sense. If I use, you know, if I use one, and it's not enough, I mean, am I gonna just come back and try one every day and go, huh, don't work again, that that just doesn't make any sense. And maybe my Listen, maybe my arrogance or ignorance or, you know, or just my desire to not see that happen to my daughter allowed me finally to say, I'm just gonna try some more here and see what happens. But I think that for many, many people who are suffering from incredibly high blood sugars, I think it's fascinating that the first thing they don't think is I must not have enough insulin. But I guess what happens is eventually they pile up enough insulin in the wrong place, they crash low, and that's the touchstone on low, I got low today, I can't be low, I'll make my blood sugar even higher. So I don't get low, I see the thinking, but it's flawed and incorrect. You don't keep your blood sugar high, so that you don't get low, you keep your blood sugar stable, and good. So that you don't get high so that you don't get low. That's it, they're taking out the common sense that been just adding the fear. And, and, and all of that, by the way, forget diabetes for a second. The way we think about everything is informed by the generation before us. Right? We grow up with our parents telling us something and we either recognize it to be true. Believe it even though it's not true, or rebel against it, because we've seen it's not right. That's it. And you can apply that to politics, the way you think about civil rights you get and you're gonna you're gonna apply it to insulin. If you ever really go back and listen to this podcast straight through. I'm just living diabetes the way I live everything else. It's it. It's common sense. It's taking out emotion, taking out what I think is right because How would I know what's right? Um, you know, this is my first time with diabetes on my first day You know, like, why would I apply what I think to something I don't understand in any meaningful way. And then somebody comes in a doctor, some, some nice lady in a Facebook page, something like that, and says three random things to you, which now you believe to be absolutely Stone Cold fact, because that person knows more than you do. So now you just believe them word for it, the amount of people I see, trying to apply a statement they heard from someone else to their life, as if it's a puzzle that will fit is fascinating. Like sometimes you just see people read something online and misinterpret it. And then they try to apply it like a rule for the rest of their lives and won't let go of it. We are so indoctrinated into wanting to believe that someone else knows better than we do. It's a fascinating human thing.

Deva Katz 1:10:51
Oh, it's for sure. True, especially in the medical, cuz you're dealing with medical issues, because we want to feel like we're being taken care of like someone's taking care of us.

Scott Benner 1:11:01
Yeah, listen, I don't want to get to, like Wavy Gravy here with you, Dave. Uh, but a lot of the things you're comfortable about is really just, you know, society building up. But don't just think about Linus with his blanket, his line is safe, or is he holding the blanket? Maybe he's no more safe than everybody else in that group. But he feels better, because he's got his blanket, then I'm assuming at some point in his life, his parents told him you'll be safe with this buddy, you know, or he attached himself to it. And I think that, listen, I live in a nice neighborhood, right? You can appreciate this better than anybody probably, I live in a nice neighborhood, it's fairly safe. That does not mean that three guys can't come blowing through my front door right now with guns, right? My wife, steal my kids, take all my stuff and shoot me in the head. That doesn't mean that can't happen. And the fact that I genuinely believe that will never happen, is as much true as it is a fallacy that I've created in my head by telling myself I live in a safe neighborhood. Now, am I going to run around for the rest of my life thinking that this is going to happen? I am not. But a lot of the things that we're comforted by aren't real. And, you know, I think it happens around diabetes as well. I think we tell people things to make them feel comfortable. I think we tell people things to take away their guilt. I think we tell people things to take away their shame. And you know, I think for some people that might be necessary, because they might be teetering on the edge. But for the rest of us, we're hearing like, we're hearing those things. Like there's some sort of rules, and we're trying to apply them to using insulin and our lives. And to me, you know, if fire puts out, a fire is extinguished, is extinguished by water. And I spray a little bit of water on it and it doesn't go out. My first thought is, oh, this must be the special kind of fire. I think more water. And I don't I see this all in a very similar way.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:00
Oh, that's great. It's true. Just more just you just need more

Scott Benner 1:13:03
wood. I somebody said to me the other day, can you help me? When I put my kid in the car and go for long rides? It's blood sugar goes way up. I've doubled his basil and it won't come down. And my response was, why does the percentage that you move the Basal impact your thought process? Because Because now Now she believes? Well, I've doubled it. And that didn't work. So it's not that where I would say well have you tripled it? Have you quadrupled it? Maybe they're the kids body is presenting a need for insulin that you're not meeting. There is no other thing to do in this situation. Your blood sugar is higher, you need more insulin. That's it if your blood sugar's lower, you need less insulin. It's it's a fairly common sense idea. And and but but that percentage thing I want to get back to we all do that. My kid got diagnosed his his Basal rate was point two an hour. And now his blood sugar's to 300 all the time. I don't know I moved as Basal 2.4 I doubled it that has to be enough. Well, it's obviously not. But you get caught up in the number because that number now seems so big. Because you were working with such a small number to begin with. And by the way, if that kid's story was his base rate was two units an hour and now his his blood sugar's 300 all the time, and I moved it to 2.3 Well, it's still not right. And I know and there's, I hear people will type on talking about like, shame around. Like somehow someone said this to me recently. I wish I remember who it was because I thought it was such a great point. She said somehow in the diabetes community amongst adults using less insulin is kind of chic. Or seems like you're doing better if you're using less Have you ever had that thought?

Deva Katz 1:14:56
I not for myself, but I definitely heard it out there. Not for yourself. I feel like Well, that's what I need. That's what I need that actually never impacted me personally, but I've definitely heard it out there. Yeah, it's like a status symbol. Yeah, I'm because I'm a keto. So I don't need any insulin like that kind of attitude. But

Scott Benner 1:15:11
I'm not saying I'm not listening. I'm not saying that there's not some. I don't know, right. I'm not a doctor. And I think there are probably doctors who don't know as well. But I'm not saying that if you had some amazingly perfect diet that was, you know, 100% right for your body that you might not use less insulin. I think that's probably true. But there's a difference between reality. And what would be true in a perfect situation. And not every person can go eat a keto diet for the rest of their lives. Some people just can't pull it together, they can't do it, or they don't want to and, and all that's important, your desires are important. And so if you want to, you know, if you want to eat cheesecake, you need to understand how much insulin cheesecake takes. That's it. I don't I don't play I'll tell you. I don't see all this as being very complicated. Am I? Maybe I'm the one that's messed up. You

Deva Katz 1:16:04
know, it's, it's not complicated, but it's still taking up too much of my headspace.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:09
Yeah. But the

Deva Katz 1:16:10
idea of like, too much insulin. So that was in my list of five pages of worth of questions that I sold my endo after two months. So one of them was, is there a maximum amount of insulin that I can take a day? Like, is there a limit that I'm allowed in? How my how it impacts the rest of my body and everything. And he was like, you need to take such as you need. Right? That's his answer was spot on. But I wasn't in the system enough to really grasp what he meant. But he meant basically what you're saying, like, you need what you need. And that's what you take. And he didn't put a cap on how much I just have to get better at not thinking about it so much. And we're getting there.

Scott Benner 1:16:46
Well, I appreciate Listen, I again, this would be arm sir. armchair psychology from me. But if I was you, I'd look at myself and say, I'm doing really well. Maybe you should take a day off. Just don't like like you're, you're you're eating reasonably low carb, you're good at your meals. Why don't you just not think about it for a day?

Deva Katz 1:17:07
Are you serious? What not? Not check?

Scott Benner 1:17:09
No, just I mean, just? How does that libri work? Does it have alarms will tell you if you go over something

Unknown Speaker 1:17:15
it does not have alarms Now,

Scott Benner 1:17:18
hold on a second, Well, then let's put yourself on it. Like why don't we say this? What if you said I'll check before a meal. And I'll give myself insulin the way I usually do. And I'll pick a meal that I know I'm pretty good at. And then I will thoughtfully not look at my blood sugar again for two hours. Oh, wow. Right? And then because it's probably going to go the way you expect because you sound like you're pretty good at I mean, how often do you see some

Deva Katz 1:17:46
lady sweating? listening to you say that I am already sweating. But you know what? I take your challenge. I'm gonna do it. Even though I'm sweating.

Scott Benner 1:17:54
Try it. And then what's the worst that could happen? Right? And then look, and then because what it's going to prove is it was okay. Because you know what you're doing? And then you'll be able to stop thinking about it, then you can look to look, not look, because you're afraid you're about to see a clown under your bed with a knife. And you have to look right. So yeah, I will say this. If you had I don't know what the situation is in Israel, but the Dexcom g six would fix your problem.

Deva Katz 1:18:20
I know what the alarms are at the moment, I'd have to pay for it out of pocket. Yeah, I believe it's free. But I would have to pay for the Dexcom I'm

Scott Benner 1:18:27
not telling you to spend money you don't have what I'm telling you is that if you could set an alarm for 130, blood sugar, and eat, then you could say to yourself, I don't have to think about this again. Unless I hear this alarm. Right. And that will take away a lot of that anxiety, I think

Unknown Speaker 1:18:43
Yeah, yeah.

Scott Benner 1:18:44
Yeah. Because right now, you have the same anxiety that people have who just have a meter. You just don't have to poke your finger to, to check on your anxiety to hold the thing up to the thing. So I don't know like if I was you, I would take steps towards trying to alleviate that. Are you checking overnight?

Deva Katz 1:19:06
Am I checking over night?

Scott Benner 1:19:08
You're not waking up to check?

Deva Katz 1:19:09
No, no, no, I I'm at this point I was in the beginning. But now I'm very confident that my Basal overnight is going to be straight line and it is and I can see when I wake up that Oh, look that it's been a straight line. I've you know if something weird happens, there's no reason to check in. I

Scott Benner 1:19:24
know, I would I you know if you can't make yourself do the thing. I said try that first, though. But if you can't, I would go to the weekend and tell your husband, here's the thing to check my Libra check it, write the number down but do not tell me what the number is under this number or over this number. So then you'll know you're safe because he hasn't come to you. And yet you'll have a little little feeling for what's happening. Okay, there's a lot of you have to trick your brain to stop being crazy, David.

Deva Katz 1:19:56
It's amazing how easy it is for the brain to become crazy and I thought it was the company same person. And apparently I'm not listening. But it's amazing how, how insane the brain can make you. Like, yeah,

Scott Benner 1:20:06
I grew up in the northeast, if you grew up in a Jewish household in New York, with nine people, there's no way you're not crazy. You know,

Unknown Speaker 1:20:15
the bedroom and half an apartment.

Scott Benner 1:20:18
My best friend, my best one of my best friends is, is about the most neurotic person I've ever seen in my entire life. And he worries about things that I can't wrap my brain around worrying. And when we talk, I'll be like, Brad, what? Why would you even think about that? And he's like, well, because and then you can see him build a narrative around. What if? And then what if? And then what if? And his what ifs spiral out of control? And I'm like, do any of those things ever happened? And you'll actually say, and he means that he's not being funny. He goes, No, but what if they do? And I'm like, Yo, man, you gotta calm down. I don't know another way to say that. Like, I think there's a way to plan without worry. And there's an episode of this podcast, and I don't want to repeat myself too much. But worry is a waste of imagination. That is literally you making up something that may happen. It's you making up a what if? And that's not, that's not valuable. You also have to be healthy. In your mind, not just your body.

Deva Katz 1:21:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's my next that's my next step. After I take my effort, take your challenge, to go two hours without checking, okay.

Scott Benner 1:21:33
And then just kind of keep stretching that out. And now it turns out, you cannot be my best friend, because I cannot take one more person who's always what I think. It's I feel for you, because I, he, it seems exhausting.

Deva Katz 1:21:49
It's exhausting. But I think you've given me hope that it's not gonna be forever, like, I'm gonna get a little bit more into it. And it's gonna become seamless, because at the moment, it's, um, well, but it's exhausting.

Scott Benner 1:22:00
I believe that I really do. I really do. I think you can get to it, especially with your you have good focus, you understand the nuts and bolts, you know, the rest of the part is just talking yourself into, into believing that what you know is going to happen is going to happen. That really is

Deva Katz 1:22:17
known as talk myself into being less crazy. We're working on that

Scott Benner 1:22:20
there's a defining diabetes episode called that because I think it's that I think it's incredibly important to just see something happen so many times that you believe it, so that you don't constantly wonder what if that's all right. Yeah, you'll get to it. You really well,

Unknown Speaker 1:22:35
I will. I will keep you posted.

Scott Benner 1:22:38
I appreciate that. I need to apologize to you. And thank you for the same thing. You really inspired me today. I was incredibly articulate. But But I always articulate what I spoke more than I meant to in this one. But you got me rolling on things. And the thoughts were coming freely. And I just didn't want to sometimes I found her through things I understand. And sometimes I don't. But you caught me. Very clear. And, and I think this is going to be a favorite episode for people because I think we'd set a lot of important things in this.

Deva Katz 1:23:12
So do I get to be considered delightful?

Scott Benner 1:23:16
Yes, you are delightful. Delightful. I don't know why it means that much for me, but I definitely found you to be delightful.

Unknown Speaker 1:23:24
I thank you very much. That means a lot.

Scott Benner 1:23:27
I also appreciate you doing this. What it What time is it where you are,

Deva Katz 1:23:30
it is now a quarter to eight the evening.

Scott Benner 1:23:33
am eating up your your your your evening time. I'm sorry.

Deva Katz 1:23:36
It's all good. It's all good. It's nice. Take a break from the kids for a while. So it's all good. I locked the door. No one's bothering me. Our piece. It's been great.

Scott Benner 1:23:45
Yeah, don't tell Kelly this, but sometimes when I'm folding the laundry, I'm just so happy to be by myself. I hate what I'm doing. But I like that I'm doing it by myself.

Deva Katz 1:23:56
Exactly. Sometimes by myself is it's a good thing. Scott, thank you very, very much. You've been you've been a life changer. And and I and I mean that in all sincerity, you know, a life changer. And and I hope that you just get paid no payback thousandfold for what you're doing for the diabetic community.

Scott Benner 1:24:16
I didn't mean that, well, you're kind to say that and I appreciate it. And I, I I feel like I feel like I get more out of this than you guys though. That's for certain. First of all, I've been married a long time. So if I start pontificating, like I did today, Kelly's walking out of the room, just you know, when I started talking about, you know, societal norms and you know, rk she's like, Oh, here he goes. And then then she's, she's out. So I get I get somewhere to stretch my legs. I also get to have I mean this, and I think it's as valuable for you all as it is for me. But having these conversations about what other people would find to be mundane diabetes ideas. They reinforce them for me and I have more than one thought. I've never had before. While I'm on the podcast, I think this podcast is helping Arden as much as it's helping you guys, because, you know, I think we're honing a blade here together. And I think it I think it goes both ways. So I appreciate it as well.

Deva Katz 1:25:15
It's like what we know now about diabetes and everything needs to light years ahead of what, you know, I knew as a seven year old when my sister got diagnosed, you know, it's so I'm so grateful for people, you know, like you out there teaching, because otherwise, you know, we'd still be back using, you know, urine sticks, you know, how helpful would that?

Scott Benner 1:25:34
Well, yeah, I mean, you can't, you can't undervalue the movement of technology. It's

Deva Katz 1:25:40
it's been, it's been incredible. Yeah. But the technology doesn't help if you don't know what you're doing with it. Yeah, I'm wearing a sensor. That's very nice. If I didn't understand it, that wouldn't help me at all.

Scott Benner 1:25:49
I'm beginning to lump I'm beginning to lump this podcast in with that, because it's a it's a tool to talk to people that that just didn't exist before this kind of text. I mean, honestly, I'm sitting with a microphone and a computer and some equipment most people don't have. But other than that, you know, I'm just putting my thoughts online and they're reaching. I am, I think that this is part of it. I think texting is an amazing part of parenting with diabetes. But I think that insulin pumps and glucose monitors and insulin that works better, that kind of stuff, even you know, even to say now, like glucagon, being in a hypo pen like that, that that's a big deal for people who are scared, you know, and there are a lot of people were scared. And then this podcast, being able to talk to people like this, I think is incredibly valuable. I have to say, I was very proud of myself at the point in the show, when you said that you started listening to a bunch of diabetes podcasts, but now only listened to this one. I was proud of myself because I I want very badly to know what those shows are. But I don't want you to say,

Deva Katz 1:26:53
I'm not gonna say the names because you know, that's rude. But I will say what the main focus was just like a lot of all your Okay, you're so wonderful, you're fine, you're fine. You're fine. Just like commiserating and venting, which I guess for some people, that's helpful. But for me, it's like, I don't want to vent. I don't want to commiserate. I want to learn, I want to do better. But that's the whole point how we make this better? Why are you accepting the status quo by venting and commiserating and having everyone you know, hug you? That's not what this is about, you know, this is you need to learn to do this better. And if you're not learning, then I don't have time for you. If you're not learning, then what's the point?

Scott Benner 1:27:34
It's funny, because in my heart, I think I do the comfort stuff, too. I just think I spent about 30 seconds on it, then we move on to the stuff that makes you not feel like you need to be comforted anymore.

Deva Katz 1:27:43
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And I'm on like, a lot of these online forums, you see that as well. So I just thought, well, that because I'm not interested in comfort I have, you know, I have that in my life right now. I need to learn how am I making this better? And, and that's what you given us. And that's, that's like I said, life changing, life changing, literally life changing, not just, you know, the fuzzy wuzzy, comfort kind of life changing literally life changing the way I'm gonna be able to live to 100 with both my feet and tech, you know, that's my goal. When you

Scott Benner 1:28:12
hear me say that, it's nice to know, you're not alone at 2am when you're fighting Alo, but it would be better to not be finding a low 2am. That's what I'm, that's what I'm saying. You know, I was approached this week about writing a blog post for a pretty big blog, right? And they're like, we keep hearing about your podcast, and would you come write something I'm like, I don't want to, but alright, you know, so I started talking to them about it. And right away, it's like, well, don't talk about any of the things that you talk about in the podcast. And I was like, I was like, why she's like, we you know, like, you know nothing about how you use insulin or about and I was like, so you heard about me, because the podcast is so popular. But you would like me not to say any of the things in the blog post that we talked about in the podcast, is that correct? And she's like, yeah, that's what I need. And I said, you know, that's why the podcast is so popular, right? And she said, why I said, cuz the rest of you are just pumping out banal bullsh people with diabetes. That's why that's that's why this bar This podcast is popular. You think it's me? If it's me, it's because I'm saying it. But it's, it could be anybody. It could be anybody that understood it was willing to speak up. It could be but now guess what? Now it's too late. Now the podcast is so popular. I'm so far ahead of it. It just doesn't. It's an institution at this point. Like your you know what I mean? It's it's a and and I've always been driven by that. Even when I wrote on a blog. I just would look up and think, why are you all saying the same unhelpful stuff over and over again, people are like, Oh, you know what, it's a great blog. This one does, and you go read it. You couldn't tell the difference between that one and that one. It was all just like you were talking about it. And it's it's really nice stuff. And I and I genuinely think it has an incredible amount of value. But how many people do we need saying It's just the number we need 4000 people saying that, because at some point, you know, in a in an attempt to make people feel better, what you make them is apathetic. And that's not helping them as much as you think it is

Deva Katz 1:30:19
that they stop trying to help themselves. And then before you know it, you know, half the communities, you know, yeah. And that makes no sense to me.

Scott Benner 1:30:26
It's a huge, it's a it's a huge, it really is. It's the communication equivalent of people misunderstanding, the baseline song I saw low. So now I keep my blood sugar at 250. Some people have a lot of anxiety around that number. So I'm going to say out loud to everyone, it's just a number. But what we're really trying to do is protect the people who have like a genuine anxiety issue around it. So is it impossible? Why is it always I keep saying this, but why is everything always one of the other? Isn't it possible to say, Hey, listen, if you're experiencing a lot of anxiety around seeing your blood sugar, I really encourage you to think about it as a number. And for the rest of you who are not feeling that here are some ways to keep that number from being anxiety ridden to begin with, and for you with the anxiety will go slower with you. And we're going to find a way to get this okay for you. And by the way, some people fall through the cracks. And that's no one's problem. No, excuse me, no one's fault. Like why why is common sense? Why do we always dumb everything down to the very bottom of everything? You know, what's incredible at this moment, David? I'm incredibly liberal. And I sound conservative. So but but you can't just say it you can't least common denominators, people's health, that

Deva Katz 1:31:47
well, that's what the doctors are doing.

Scott Benner 1:31:49
Yeah, no, no, they're, they're ruining nine people's health because one person can't handle the information. And then why? That just doesn't make any sense. No, you know, I'm not up for that, I guess. And so if that,

Deva Katz 1:32:04
obviously not, because you putting in all this time and energy and on behalf of all of you, like I said, the diabetic community, we appreciate it.

Scott Benner 1:32:11
I appreciate you saying that. But listen,

Unknown Speaker 1:32:14
I need to leave a positive Have an awesome day.

Scott Benner 1:32:17
Yeah, but no, no, I was gonna tell you, I need to leave a repository behind for my daughter. That's what this podcast is that it's helping all you guys is a nice bonus. But I need to take what's in my head and put it here. Because I think one day I'm gonna drop dead, right? And she's gonna go, huh? How was my dad so good at this diabetes thing? Because she's not me. Right? People want to make that point. all adults love to ask me Well, how are you gonna pass this on to your daughter. That's another fallacy. That's another I live in a safe neighborhood. I don't know how you're gonna pass it on to your daughter, you can't. Because they're little, and their brains are mushy. And they don't have, they don't have any of my life experiences. They don't jump to conclusions about common sense, because they don't have common sense. They're still building all that stuff. I need this podcast to be available that day, my daughter, as an adult realizes, holy, that guy knew what he was talking about. And

Unknown Speaker 1:33:11
about myself. And now

Scott Benner 1:33:13
I'm going to go back and listen to that podcast, I'm going to take 500 1000 hours of my life and make myself as good at diabetes as my dad was. But and maybe she won't do that. But if she has that thought, this is going to be here for it. Because I'm going to pay what I'm my goal was to save up enough money to pay so that the, the podcast can be available, you know, forever. Like I i one of the things I want to do at my death is pay the company who host this podcast to keep hosting. Well, you know, so yeah, it just it it is that it's just, you can't you can't learn life in a day. And my path somehow turned me into the kind of person who sees diabetes, the way I see it, and talks about it the way I talk about it. Just like when you hear Jenny, like you don't think there are other smart people who have had diabetes for 33 years who are into fitness. But why is Jenny so good at talking about it? Right? It's It's her whole life. It's a it's a, it's an amalgam of who she is, when she puts it out there. I think that's the same for me. And for anybody else who's good at something. You didn't just sit down one day, I didn't, if anybody thinks I just thought, Oh, I'm gonna make a diabetes podcast. And I'll just do it really good. So people like it. That's not how this works. I could have started this podcast, and it could have been crap, and no one could have listened to it. And I'll tell you there are a lot of other people out there proven that with a lot of other podcasts, and I don't, I don't just read about diabetes. I mean, just in general, people have that thought like, Oh, I'm interesting. And then they start talking. I'm like, oh, like, I've tried some podcasts and I'm eight minutes into it. I think. No one could be listening to this. You know, like, like, Who would listen to this? I don't think the guy making it would listen to it.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:05
But that again, it's not a it's not a brag. It's, it's just what it is, like,

Scott Benner 1:35:11
I can't, I can't do a high jump, I can't run a 60 yard dash and in, you know, in an incredible amount of time, they're things I'm terrible at. I'm good at this. So that's dumb luck. It really is. I've had people say to me, I'm sorry, Your daughter has diabetes, but saved my life. You know, so,

Deva Katz 1:35:34
I am kind of sorry, she has diabetes, but it's, it's, uh, if she has to have it, I'm glad that she's in your family. Right? You're there for her. I

Scott Benner 1:35:42
think the unspoken part of that sentence is if some kids gonna get diabetes, the daughter of the guy who can talk about diabetes, like,

Unknown Speaker 1:35:51
is that a horrible thing to say?

Unknown Speaker 1:35:52
I don't think so.

Deva Katz 1:35:53
I get at it. It's the reality you You are the best person to be caring for her. So

Scott Benner 1:36:01
let's leave it with on the best person that makes me feel.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:06
I like that.

Scott Benner 1:36:07
I'm kidding. Of course, after all this talking, someone's gonna take that incredibly seriously. But, uh, but But no, seriously, I'm just happy. I'm literally happy that the thing I did helped you. Yeah, that's all. It's and my point, my greater point is that I could have been a person who put this out in the world, and you could have listened to it and gone. Well, this is not valuable, and walked away from it. And I'm just happy that it worked out this way. And by the way, I mean, this, if I if I, if I shouldn't be doing this, meaning if people don't connect with it, I would very much want to move on to something else. Like I would be horrified to think that I was pumping out a podcast for people every week that nobody listened to and nobody cared about. Like, why am I wasting my time with that? You know,

Deva Katz 1:36:55
okay, well, let me put that back at you. How long before this episode airs?

Scott Benner 1:36:59
Oh, well, I really liked it. So it's gonna move way off.

Deva Katz 1:37:03
I'm just gonna save you have episodes three, four months out? Clearly you have What to say? And clearly, people are out there listening. That's what I'm saying. I know, often you um, you have, you know, episodes, you know, far out into the future. So

Scott Benner 1:37:18
you're saying a lot to do. If this went into the general rotation, you'd hear it in March of 2021. But Wow, I had a good time with it. So I think it's gonna go go out sooner. Plus, you're you're in a really unique situation. I've had a lot of men lately, and I need to mix in some women. So that's my super By the way, if anybody's listening trying to figure out the you're like, Oh, I wonder why his podcast is more popular than mine. I mixed men and women back and forth, which by the way, has nothing to do why it's popular. I just think it's a nice thing to do. So you guys don't hear similar voices like week after week, you know? But anyway, alright. You were terrific. You are on fire. By the way if your husband ever goes down, I don't know if I want to live in Israel. But I think you and I would get along. So I'm not taking care of those kids just

Deva Katz 1:38:04
Well, you my best friend. So certainly that has to mean something.

Scott Benner 1:38:07
I do think it does. If by the way, please.

Unknown Speaker 1:38:12
Have a good day. You

Scott Benner 1:38:13
have a great day. I really

Unknown Speaker 1:38:14
did. Are you gonna be lunch? Alright, take care. Okay, bye. Did I tell

Scott Benner 1:38:23
you this was gonna be a great episode. Why would I lie? There's no reason. Thank you so much, David, for coming on the show and sharing your broad expansive story and your heart. It was really lovely. I want to just point out that at the end of the episode, I told her it would be out like a couple of months ago, because I was moving it up. But the great episodes have just piled up to the point where I can't do that. I'd have to start giving you guys like five episodes a week to get them out at the pace that I would have needed to to keep my promise. There are just too many good episodes. I gotta paste them a little bit. You guys can't listen every day. You have lives. I mean, I imagine you have a life.

Don't forget to go to the T one D exchange. That's at T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. Click on join our registry now and fill out the brief survey. All you need to be is a type one, the caregiver of type one be from the United States and have a few minutes to want to do a nice thing for other people. That's all you got to be if you're those things, this is gonna work out great for you. If you're new to the podcast and looking for the diabetes pro tip series, it begins at Episode 210 in your podcast app, or you can find them at Juicebox Podcast comm or diabetes pro tip calm, be defining diabetes series is also there, as well as links to all the things about the podcast that you might care about Juicebox podcast.com Scroll down, take a look. All the after dark episodes are there and all the ones about algorithm based pumping. There's some blog posts that I think are pretty terrific. recent episodes pro tip episodes, so much to choose from. If you're listening in a podcast that please hit subscribe or follow. And of course, if you're enjoying the show, please share it with someone who you think might also enjoy it.

#475 Turn Adversity into Advantage

May 05, 2021Scott Benner

Chris Ruden has type 1 diabetes and a new book

Buy on Amazon

Former guest (episode 201) Chris Ruden is back on the show to talk about stuff with Scott. Chris’s new book, “The Upper Hand: Leveraging limitations to turn adversity into advantage” is on sale now.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to Episode 475 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today, my guest is Chris Rutan. Chris is a two time guests as he was also with me back on episode 201. Now if you don't know Chris, he's got a really interesting story. Chris has a congenital birth defect that left him with two fingers on his left hand and a shorter left arm. He also has type one diabetes. Today we're going to talk about a number of different topics, Chief of which is turning adversity into advantage. Please remember, as you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. And if you're interested in finding Chris's new book, the upper hand leveraging limitations to turn adversity into advantage. It's available right now on amazon.com.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor, please head over to Dexcom comm forward slash juice box to learn more about the G six and get started. You can find out if you're eligible for a free no obligation 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash tubeless insulin pump at Omni pod comm forward slash juice box there are links in the show notes of the podcast player you're listening in right now. Or if you're not listening in a podcast player, please tell me you are they are free. And it's so easy. Anyway, if you're not, these links are also available at Juicebox podcast.com.

Chris Ruden 2:20
I think when people hear me say that I spend time editing the show, they think content. And the truth is these are freeform conversations. I almost there's no cuts. Yeah, that's the thing. It's It's literally wavelengths and like understanding how to make the sound better. And that that I am so impressed by the fact that you do that yourself is very impressive. Oh, well, I'm just cheap. That's all. I understand that I definitely understand that I would rather pay personally. But also now I'm to the point where like, Damn, I want to learn, you know, like, I want to understand this stuff. Well, even like some people tongue click while they're thinking they breathe heavy at different places. You know, sometimes plosives in depending on people's microphones like trying to control plosives I'm sure is a nightmare for you with the lack of standardization and microphones that people use for your show. There's, um, there's a person that comes on and hurt themselves and said Did I do okay, it sounded really great. And I didn't have the heart to tell them like it took me had to edit it so much. It took me 45 minutes to take out all the noises you make. Ah, I know. I know one guy he does his podcast. He's like, kind of like way crazy level with it. But he's such a control freak. He sends people a specific microphone and has them agree to send it back. Like it's crazy stuff. Oh, trust me, if I if I thought I could do that if I wasn't recording so much. If I was just doing, you record a lot of really good content and you put out volume with good content. So that's, again, impressive. Not trying to toot your horn. But to be able to do that level of volume would be very tough. That's where people microphone. Yeah, but trust me if it was once a month. Oh, for sure. Because it makes it so much easier. Like hey, this is where I need you to put the mic. This is just plug a USB mic in and like, talk into it and don't say the word or like 15,000 times please. But they will. They will or they will like oh, I don't really know what I'm gonna say. So I'm gonna fill this with words. I'm just gonna, like and a

Scott Benner 4:13
while we're talking. I there are some people that I'm recording that I can visually start to learn what, um, looks like coming out of their mouth.

Chris Ruden 4:22
So I have a really bad habit of any speaker that I coach. I tell them, I count how many times you say like and are your filler words. And it's an addiction. It's literally like an obsessive compulsive thing where I will tally mark, how many times someone says these filler words and I find what their crutch word is? because for me it was you guys or I would always go to something like that. And now that I noticed that I'm like,

Scott Benner 4:48
Oh, well, here's something that people wouldn't know. I think conversationally, the person who's speaking when they're in monologues, they still need to know you're listening. So when they make points, I'll go right on. Okay, that's interesting. But then in editing, I take out a lot of me saying that.

Chris Ruden 5:05
But it's good because we don't have the physical representation right now for me to see your head nods or gestures. And we know communication is a lot of that. So getting those verbal responses that you're still listening, or you're engaged, I think is important. And there's a big difference between those. And between the filler words out of frustration or not being sure on what to say, you know, right, yeah, there's a difference between agreeing and your brain going, I don't know what to do next, I don't have

Unknown Speaker 5:30
time to fill whitespace on a paper with more things. That's what I see it as I'm most impressed. And

Chris Ruden 5:38
by people who can speak slower, and thoughtfully, and I've been endeavoring to slow down as I as I get it, that was my hardest thing in the beginning is to not let for one emotion, carry the conversation because you do get emotional. But if you let it control you, then the speed gets affected, the delivery gets affected, then by you know, the end means the value you're trying to give out gets affected. So speaking slower, pausing enough, even if it's awkwardly long to make sure you gather your thoughts. I'd rather someone paused longer to deliver what they really want to say, then rush to try and you know, maintain a speed that's not necessary. No one listens to a podcast for speed. They listened for content. Yep. That's a lot of stuff. I've learned doing this. And all that is, is exactly what you said, I've seen your stuff tremendously increased, like it was already good from the beginning, because you had a natural talent for it. But you didn't just rely on your talent. You took the raw talent that you had, and you refined it, and I watched it grow. And I watched the way you ask questions change the quality, obviously, that's just more of a skill. But I've really watched you pay attention to the way you talk. And it's, it's awesome. Well,

Scott Benner 6:47
you and I met pretty mccosh It's been years now. Right? We were in here probably four years ago in Ohio in like a lobby in a hotel. Right? Okay. And I can tell talking to you that you were going to, like make something out of the thing you were doing. It was just pretty obvious. Like you were treating it like a, like a serious business.

Unknown Speaker 7:07
Yeah, I didn't want it to be a hobby. I didn't want to be a hobby speaker, I knew that I wanted to be a speaker as a career where most people just speak to do something else, you know, for me, that's what I wanted to do.

Scott Benner 7:18
That's funny, you say that because I, I believe that there are people who see me go do my speaking things and think, oh, he's doing that to propel the podcast, it has nothing, it doesn't really help the podcast that much like I do it because I think it's a nice thing to do.

Chris Ruden 7:32
And that's and there are many speakers that do like for you, it's all value based, for me extremely value based. And it's something I genuinely want my career to be right. You've built this podcast as a value based system that is also a career. So what the podcast is to you speaking full time is to me, but it doesn't mean I won't podcast and you won't speak you know, that's 100% It's so nice to talk to somebody who understands the the backroom ins and outs of this stuff. Because I am by myself, often just with these thoughts in my head, I go insane. You know, there's not many people that kind of understand the intricacies or the struggles that it takes to build something like this. And when someone asks, like, Oh, I want to do just what you're doing, I'm like, we'll be prepared for years of frustration, you know, where to just find out, you're bad at it. And that's Yeah, you might suck at it. You know, for me, I know, I'm not the best podcast, I released like a mini series podcast for my book. And for me, it's just talking through the chapters, but I know where my skill lies. And it's in raw, authentic conversations, especially in front of people. But now that we're in the virtual world, we have to adapt. But I will always respect the people that are amazingly good at it, like you people who are prominent podcasters, or even prominent speakers. We all have things to learn, you know, but I think as long as you're truly enjoying what you're doing, you're giving value and you're helping people, you know, you don't always have to be the Tony Robbins or the world's best podcaster to continue to do what you do. Yeah.

Scott Benner 8:55
But I tell you, Chris, you make me, you make me remember that I could easily do this every day, and be very happy about it. If there was a world where I didn't do the editing, and all the processing and the stuff that you guys don't see to make the audio pop into your earbuds. I could sit down and have one of these conversations every day. And I believe they're not just helping the people who are listening. I believe they're entertaining. And I think they're moving up my understanding of life, and diabetes, and not necessarily just life with diabetes.

Chris Ruden 9:28
What I what I like about you is that you seem very similar to me in the sense of to help yourself, you have to help other people. And almost like you teach best what you need to learn most when you do these things. I'm sure a lot of people like wow, you're given such good content. But for you, you probably take so much from this. Yeah, you probably hear these conversations and engage these conversations. And when you're done you're like, Dan, that was like that was that was awesome. You know, and I'm sure it helps you with your family with your kid. Just reframing your perspective. You're constantly hearing perspectives that help You whether you know it consciously or subconsciously, to just be a better person and live a better quality of life. Oh, I know. And yeah, that's that for me, that keeps me going. Because every single talk I do, I'm like, now I have to hold myself to that higher standard, I have to hold myself to that higher regard, and be that person because I want to be that person. And I want to help those people that truly took something from what I just did. jover say something a new way. And in the back of your brain go, that was better. Okay. Yes. Like you literally you review. Even in conversations like this, you'll say something like, Man that that came out a lot differently. And I really liked that. Yeah, I like how I framed that. When did I think, you know, when did that come through, or someone else will say something. And that will immediately cue me to like, write a note in my phone like, oh, that that the way I was framing it, there is a little different. But I like this, you know,

Scott Benner 10:54
I've gotten busy enough, where I can't just, I can't always send somebody a thoughtful note, if I don't want them on the podcast, if they reach out, and I'm like, I don't want to do this thing. You know, sometimes I'll say no, thank you, or it doesn't fit or something like that. But there are some people I want to say to them. Listen, you reached out,

Chris Ruden 11:11
I checked into you, you are doing this too much. Like you're whoring around going everywhere you can and you're saying the exact same thing. That's the difference is people who want content, not from a quality, but from a quantity perspective, they think that if they're more places, that more will help them you can't Polish a turd. That's what I said, you know, you can't Polish a turd. If you haven't focused on your value in the quality you're putting out. doing more won't help. Yeah, more of something B is not better. It reminds me of why I think the the diabetes content here works well is because everything gets said it's not the first 90% of the statement. And then the 10% it's not fun to talk about our people don't like to hear you don't say out loud. Meaning that

Scott Benner 11:59
people have to understand that just because it's easy to put content online. Now, if it's audio or video or whatever, like everybody can buy a camera or you know, use their phone or whatever, it doesn't mean that you'll be the content that you'll create. Not even that you're not good at it, it might not resonate with people. And that's not something you can fix.

Chris Ruden 12:22
No. And that's I noticed that with certain content, I'm constantly testing out new theories or applications or methods of delivery. I did one the other day, like my quotes that I post do really well they get tons of shares. And people that constantly messaged me about them. I tried on like, Oh, I'd love to do like a video background, maybe make it a little bit more cinematic. And it fell flat on its face. Yeah, you know, and I was like, okay, that didn't really work, I have an option, I can test it again and see if maybe the quote itself didn't do as well. Or I can scrap that and move forward. People take content that doesn't do well personally. And people take content that does do well personally. And they think both ways. They're just amazing. When at the end of the day, you're giving value. And if that's what you're focused on, you're good. But if you're focused on that ego centric type, I'm great or I suck, you're always going to be chasing something that you're not really doing. You know, well, there's there's this thing that people listening would know, but episodes that are with children or older people don't do as well. And I still do them with as much frequency. I don't be that's part of your brand. You know, that's what you value in it just because more people might not value it on average doesn't mean some people do you know, that I respect that you still do that. And you're not just cloud chasing or chasing engagement. And I did that for a long time. And I can tell you, it sucks.

Scott Benner 13:46
Yeah. And it works. It'll work for a while. But the one thing that I'm always impressed about about you, or if you were to ask me, one of the things that I'm proud of myself is longevity, like the the growth is great. I love that the podcast is growing. That's amazing. But the fact that I can keep doing it, that's a big deal to me, because you will open up Instagram or you know, something like that and see a person is as popular as you can imagine. And then 12 months later, like I defined you, I defy you to find them there. Oh,

Chris Ruden 14:19
absolutely. People come in waves. Because when it's good, they invest everything. But the second it dips. They're out. Yeah. You know, they didn't have that resilience from the beginning to understand that they again, like I said, taking success or failure personally. People take success and they're like, oh, man, I'm definitely going to keep going. This is amazing. We'll get all this validation, then it drops and they're like, wow, I suck. You know, their entire value system is based on engagement. And when you have that external validation as a guiding principle. At the end of the day, if your viewership dropped, you'd still put out content because he's no as valuable. And if your viewership raised you'd still put out Because you know your viewership is valuable. And so when you're based on something that is not a variable, you'll always be constant. So early on in this, when I got my first advertiser in a meeting, they said, What's your business model? And I said, I'm going to help people. And they were like, and and I was like, well, then I imagine they'll feel helped and tell somebody else about it. That's it. That's it.

Scott Benner 15:28
I don't have a model beyond that. Yeah, that's it, I'm gonna, I'm going to help people. And I'm going to do it in a way that's entertaining. And that gets perplex Lux, you're going to talk about diabetes in an entertaining way. And I said, Well, not entertaining, like juggling balls of fire. But in a way that doesn't feel like medicine. I was like, we have to get away from how people talk about diabetes, it's, it's the worst. It's so clinical, and full of jargon. Nobody wants to have that conversation, or that conversation ends up feeling unknowable. Like, I don't understand some of the words you said or the idea.

Unknown Speaker 16:05
It becomes it becomes a peer reviewed lecture at for certain points, or some people want to demonstrate their knowledge so much. So I promise you that when I start talking about glute for translocation, I lost so many people. But when I talk about the ups and downs and how it's a minute by minute condition, they're like, hell yeah, relatability. You know,

Scott Benner 16:24
if people want to know one of the difficult decisions I've made making the podcast, it was actually using the words glycemic load and glycemic index and tone, I'm

Unknown Speaker 16:32
sure we're gonna have that. And immediately it rubs people in a way that like, I'm not ready for this conversation, maybe I'm not smart enough is it puts doubt in people's minds, and it's overwhelm, people are coming here to not be overwhelmed. The last thing they want to do is be overwhelmed with information that they already feel like is above their head.

Scott Benner 16:49
Yep. And if so, if you're listening, and you've been listening for a while, and you've especially if you've listened in order, I moved you towards it very slowly. I bring it up in conversations for a split second, I'd say how important it is, then let it go. I would build in your mind the glycemic load and glycemic index sounds boring, but it's really important. And I would do that for I hate to say this, that I feel this well thought out. But I did it for a year before I ever said the words out loud in its own episode.

Unknown Speaker 17:18
But that's that's called proper framing, and you didn't rush it, and most people will try and replace consistency with intensity. Yeah, you were consistently building that that space to accept the terminology and the concept, you know, without rushing the intensity of like, you got to understand glycemic index this is, you know, the second people feel forced on information that they're it seems overwhelming. They're gonna check out.

Scott Benner 17:43
Yeah, you and I talked about this a number of years ago, but privately, I think, but there was a moment when I saw people copying my content. Oh, yeah, I remember. And then I thought, well, this is good, because now I'm leading the discussion. And, and in a bigger way, because it must be I know, people are just like, well, this is the most popular podcast in the space. So I'll do what they're doing. And it got to the point where, if I put something up on Facebook, you know, which I don't take particularly. Not that I don't take it seriously, but Facebook's not my focus, right? Yeah. Then, hours later, other Facebook pages would post on the same topic.

Chris Ruden 18:21
Oh, I saw it. I remember when you said that. I was watching. I was like, wow, he's he's not you know, being dramatic, literally, is telling the truth that I'm watching it. I actually watched a few podcasts right now from time to time that use a very similar model to yours. And I'm like, either The world is full of coincidences Are you were leading by example, that's for sure. Well, and then it's hard. It's initially, it's a human reaction. It's angering you're like, Well think of your own thing. Like, yeah, like, I

Scott Benner 18:47
thought of this, think of the thing for yourself. And then I realized, like, that's not gonna happen, like, some people just want to get to the end. They hear I have an ad, they want an ad. But it but in my heart, I'm like, that's not gonna work that way. Because if it doesn't come from a genuine place of, I'm only doing this to help people in any good that comes from it after that is a bonus. If you're starting with I want to make money with this. I don't think you'll do well. And so

Unknown Speaker 19:15
I'm like, Why don't because that's not how you started. That's not how anyone successful started. I think people forget, though. I've mentored a few speakers, especially in the diabetes and like disability space. And they come to me like, Oh, I want to make money as a speaker. I'm like, Well, have you spoken? Like, no, I'm like, do you have a speech? No. What's your message? Oh, I went through a lot of stuff. I'm like, that's your story. What's your message? And I'm like, you want to hang out at the finish line without running the race. That's what you want. You know, you want to get paid for something you don't have and you don't understand that I spent a year and a half, doing over 3035, keynotes for free, which I would do it differently. Now if I look back, but I did that for free, to establish value, test the market, see if I can offer something that's worth something to people, not just financially But right emotionally and mentally, you know, and it tested that and most people don't even want to test anymore. They just want to go straight to the success part. And you can't have the success without the work. You know, you can't just want a better body without wanting to do the work. Yeah,

Scott Benner 20:14
you have to, in my mind, you offer proof. Like, I don't go to a company and say, Hey, would you like to buy an ad on my podcast? I don't have any downloads, like, you know, yeah,

Chris Ruden 20:23
like, I'm thinking of starting something, do you want to invest in my idea, but there's that whole, like, 10% idea and 90% execution concept. But yeah, that no one's gonna invest in an idea because I have an idea to make a seven wheeled car that only weighs five pounds. Great. Do you have any sort of insight on how to do that? No, no, but I'm gonna do it. Any funding? No. Do you have anything else other than an idea that took you two seconds to make, in fairness to one to one company? And I will always say this out loud on the pod bought an ad before there was anything to buy an add on? And that see that's that's a business move on them for them, they must have seen, or potentially saw a future investment, which is cool. Yeah, I had worked with them as a panel. I had written for them. Okay. Okay. So you I'd already established value, though. So you did something? Yeah. You know, I basically said to them, hey, the money you were thinking of giving me for writing this stuff? Could you just not make me write this stuff and give it to me for this? But see that you you did you put something into action, you weren't just idea you were execution from the start point will invest in people who execute you know, and that that's, that just furthers my point,

Scott Benner 21:31
it I think it's important to talk about, we never really, hopefully, people will hang on and listen to the diabetes stuff, too. But I am I, I never talked about it here enough. But with so many people who think that there's a world of business, like they look at their Instagram account and think that's a company. And if it isn't, it's a nice way to do something. If you have all of these other things going on, you don't just start an Instagram page, and tell me you're an entity, it it doesn't work that way. It doesn't,

Chris Ruden 22:02
you know, it doesn't work that way at all. And that's it. The goal, if your goal is to help people, any business comes from the point of solving other people's problems. That's what true businesses, any business has business and solving people's problems. If you were only solving your problem, whether it's financially, ego doesn't matter. You are your own business, you are your own employee and your own customer. And you can't expect to ever grow beyond what you're trying to service yourself. Because you're being selfish and you're servicing your needs. You're neglecting the community and you're using the community as a way to get to the finish line without enjoying or running the race and that that's not okay. Not only is it not okay, it's not going to produce and you're going to be upset because you set expectations that will never be fulfilled. Arden had a project in school the other week, and she had to interview me, what was the worst job I ever had the best job I've ever had.

Scott Benner 22:54
That's amazing. And I took me a while I had to, like I had a couple of really bad jobs. So I was sitting there quietly in the kitchen, like, Oh, that was bad. But it wasn't as bad as this. And I finally came up with the one and then told that little story for and she said, what's the best job and I said, Well, hands down, I got to be a stay at home dad for a really long time. And that that's an experience. I wouldn't trade for any of the other experiences that I've had. I said, but if you want to be more technical, like a thing I do that I do on a schedule, that in return, I get money for I said, it's the podcast. And I said, and because I never imagined I'd get to do something that I would enjoy that would genuinely help people. And there'd be an income from like, I thought you'd have to give up one of those things. Like I thought you could do something you enjoy that help people but it wouldn't pay very much. And not that I'm wealthy, you know, Chris, but I mean, it's enough that I can keep doing this thing, right? Or I thought you could have a job that paid a lot, but you'd hate it. Or you get a job that paid a lot that would hurt people like you know, like I dumped chemicals into our Lake, you know, for a living like I never thought you could get all three and I was like, this is all three, it sustains my family. I love it. It makes people's lives better. And as a bonus, I get involved in conversations I would not normally get involved in that elevate me, and you and everyone around us and my understanding of diabetes. So you know, for everybody listening. If you if you took me right now and took me back six years and introduced me to the guy who's been running a podcast for a year. I now could run circles around that guy talking about diabetes. And I was pretty good at it back then.

Chris Ruden 24:40
And it that's growth, you know that. And what I want people to understand is you don't have to be the best podcast or you don't have to have the number one podcast. You don't have to be an amazing speaker. You don't have to have done a TV show or have a disability or you don't have to have any of these drastic accomplishments that people might see as accomplishments. What you have to do is focus on serving the people in the community that you want to help. If you want to help other people and you find ways to maximize the skill that you have, and you're giving, you're coming from a giving perspective, instead of selling perspective, replace the word sell with help, and you'll always have business, you will always have maybe not wealthy, but wealthy in the sense of validation, fulfillment, you know, you're helping other people live better lives, there will always be a career in helping other people live better lives. Yeah, I think as long as I'm warm, and my kids can eat, the being happy part, as I get older, becomes more and more important. I actually talk about that a lot. We're probably the only society that focuses so much on happiness in the sense of like, constantly chasing happiness, happiness is everything happiness, happiness. No other society really does. You know, in the United States, we're the biggest consumer of self help books, but the largest amount of depression. It's It's so funny to me, you know, including podcasts, self help podcasts. So many people are so focused on happiness, that when they're not happy all the time, which is life, because life is not happy all the time. It's just life. We think that we should be happier, we think that we should have more, we're never, we're never satisfied, we don't have gratitude. So we're not happy, we're taught that happiness is everything. So we're always miserable. In the pursuit of happiness, which is why I talk about, I truly think the pursuit of happiness can be toxic. And the pursuit of growth is so much more important, because growth involves pain and pleasure, success and failure, struggle and strength and all these things, you know, but we're so focused on being the best all the time, but you can't be the best all the time. Otherwise, it's not called the best anymore. That's just normal. Yeah, people are obsessed with more, and never realize that. How can you want more from your life, when you don't even appreciate what you already have? It's the collection of stuff instead of the appreciation of what collection thinking you need, more. You, you've collected so many moments in your life up into this point, pain, everything, all wide range, dynamic range of moments, but we never look back or look at the moments we have currently. Because we're so focused on what we want to have more of, and what we don't have enough of, and it's that frame that keeps people miserable. That misery can be applied to diabetes, you know, we are sugar is 130. And we're like, you know, I should be 100 or sugar is 70, it should be 90, everything should be something else and never can just exist. We can't just exist and enjoy and and take part in what's currently going on. Because we always want something else. And at the end of the day, your life, you'll never have had anything. Because you spent your whole life wanting things you never got. Do you ever, ever meet somebody who gains weight consistently over their life, and every time they hit a new plateau, they look back and think oh, I was better. Like I was okay, where I wasn't, I wasn't happy with myself. They're always always because hindsight is 2020. And we usually only appreciate the things we used to have or wish we did, right? It's, for some reason, we've definitely shifted away from it with social media because of seeing people's highlight reels, but we are so obsessed with wanting different things, just wanting, just wanting, wanting, wanting, and never just having gratitude. I said in one of my talks, gratitude is the antidote for greed. And I didn't mean that with money. But greed for more greed for a better a different life. People get greedy with wanting to not be diabetic or greeting with want to be a better diabetic or greedy with wanting to be a social media diabetic or a podcaster. And you can do all those things. But you have to have a balance of I love where I'm at right now. I I have gratitude for where I am right now. And I also would like to grow, and I'm willing to do the work, those two things have to exist simultaneously. Or else you're always chasing something that you'll never have.

Scott Benner 29:16
You know, when you're watching those movies about the future, and you think, Oh, I hope I can live like that one day. So magical technology, so advanced and everything just seems better. Well, if we're just talking about the continuous glucose monitoring world, the world of CGM being able to measure the effect of insulin on your blood sugar and moreover, just the speed and direction that your blood sugar is moving in. If that's the future we're talking about, that future actually exists already that's here. So you know, if you're waiting for it, you don't have to, all you have to do is go to dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. And there you can get started with the Dexcom g Six continuous glucose monitor. You'll make knowledge your superpower. Like, you know, in the movies were like, there's like a super person and they fly around. They're like, I'm very strong. I know everything. I'm fast. You could be those things around your blood sugar, strong and fast and confident by knowing what direction your blood sugar is moving in, and how quickly it's moving in that direction. Imagine right now, if you could pick up your phone and see that your daughter's blood sugar is 70. That is what I just did. In the time, it took me to say it. I know it. I didn't open the phone before. I just said, Imagine, if you could and while I was saying that I picked up my phone, I unlocked it. I opened up the Dexcom app, and saw that Arden's blood sugar was 70 is also stable. By the way, it is neither rising or falling at the moment. I see all of that with my Dexcom g six follow up. Oh, you didn't know about that either. Yeah, up to 10. People can follow someone who's wearing a Dexcom g six. So I'm following my wife is falling if we wanted, my son could follow her friends could follow her school nurse could follow anybody, anybody you give access to. And on top of that, you get to set alarms, right notifications that tell you hey, your blood sugar's fallen farther than you want it to or risen higher than you wanted it to. It can even tell you if you're rising or falling quickly. It's magical. It's futuristic, but it's not. It's today. dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Click on the links in the show notes. type it into a browser. Get started with Dexcom g sex. While you're out there on the internet, doing good things for yourself making decisions that are going to help you be healthier and safer. You might want to look at the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump. My daughter Arden has been wearing the Omni pod since she was four years old, she will turn 17 this summer. That is a long time, a long time that has been made easier, safer, friendlier, healthier, by the Omni pod Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. When you get there, you look around, you see that? You see what's up me like I get it. And then you do some clicking a little bit of typing. And before you know it, you're gonna have your answer. Am I eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash tubeless insulin pump? What did I just say? Free 30 days? That's right, it is possible that that could be you head over to find out now on the pod.com forward slash juice box. This is a no brainer. Free 30 days is a 12th of the year. That's a lot of time. 30 days, watch this right now. That was three seconds. Right? There are 60 seconds in a minute. 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, 30 days in a month. That's a long time to get free insulin pumps on the pod comm Ford slash juice box go check it out.

So the first time that I saw what is now a common way people live is probably 30 years ago. And you might be too young to even know this or not be a football fan but already zero years old. Okay, Reggie White was a defensive end for the Philadelphia Eagles. I grew up in Philadelphia, he was the best defensive end in football for years. And free agency, which is now a very common thing in sports did not exist. It came into play. And when it came into play, Reggie moved from the Eagles to the Packers. And I think back then they paid him $9 million. Well, that was the first time that anyone had ever said out loud how much money a person made to play sports that I was ever aware of. And I watched a city of people who I believe would have given their own life for Reggie white, in a split second, learn how much money he had and then hate him. And I was like, wait, you love this guy. And he's amazing. And this stadium only fills up because of him. Like, you begrudge this guy $9 million at the end of his career, like he's gonna have to take this money after taxes and make the rest of his life with it. You know, he's only he's still a pretty young man, you know, they they went from loving him to hating him for making the money. And I think that learning how much people have seeing what other people have is hard for people to deal with. And social media makes it a million times worse because it feels like that's their entire life. And not only is that that their entire life, but everyone has this bug me. And boy that just puts you in a you know, in a place where

Unknown Speaker 34:49
you envy philosophy of you know, seeing someone's fabricated or manufactured lifestyle on social media. We build a picture in our heads of why we're not there or why we shouldn't be there or why we'll never be able to get there. We it's the story we tell ourselves. And that's what I talk about a lot in my book. The upper hand is the story we tell ourselves get so terrible. Sometimes it's think about this with with Reggie. Everyone was contributing to that $9 million. So stadiums were packed with paying customers people paid their money, unknowingly or knowingly to this guy. And once they realized that he had what they deemed as an abundance for the risk and all the things that he did. They're like, No, no, I'm not okay with this anymore. Yeah, I contributed to this, but I'm not okay with anymore. And people do that with social media. I love this picture. It's so beautiful. This girl, this guy, they're so pretty. They're so amazing. There's such a great life. Wait a minute. My life's not that good. I don't like them anymore. That's Wow, no ego, probably a crappy person. Now we start to tell ourselves a story. Well, I would do that. But my circumstances were the way I grew up my socio economic, you know, background, my resources, my this my that, then we start to validate why we're not as good or why they're better. Instead of just considering, hey, I have everything I could ever possibly need within me in the way I think. And I'm willing to be resourceful enough to make the life that I want. Because that's a reality.

Scott Benner 36:20
Yeah. No, I think there's a lot to that. And I and I believe that there's a whole generation of kids right now who are coming up. And they don't have any perspective. Like they didn't know Reggie white before free agency like I did. And, and I it is a worrisome thing that it could spill over and likely will spill over into many, many different aspects of people's thinking. You know, you see it even like, ladder climbing in business, where people get a job and immediately want to know how to how do I get a better job here, like when they get to do this job first, and then you know, be proficient at it, show up on time, do good work, and then we'll look at you and move you up a little bit. And that takes time. People don't even want to wait for that. Like you said, they want to go to the finish line. They don't want to run the race.

Chris Ruden 37:08
Yeah, and the any anything takes time. It's that iceberg effect. People only want to hang out at that little bit of iceberg without seeing all the thing that's beneath the surface that people see. You know, I have a big thing coming out and People Magazine, I'm releasing this book. I'm booking talks, I'm doing all this supposedly cool stuff work with Nike Tommy Hilfiger? it Yeah, it sounds cool. And all that. But people don't see the four years of struggle. And I'll share this with some people, people who might know me, but they'll see my account and blue checkmark and all the fancy stuff. But two years ago, halfway in my career, I tried to quit everything. I took a incomplete resume resume. I went to vitamin Shoppe to get a $7 an hour job because I was done. I was done. I was like, This isn't working. I'm never going to be successful. This sucks. A lot of people don't know this, because I was still getting close to the height of my career. But I didn't see it because I wanted more. And I wanted so much more that I wanted to throw it all away, because I was so frustrated that I wasn't at the finish line. Because I didn't finish running the race. And I'm so thankful, whoever if you ever listen to this guy, I'm so thankful that the guy who interviewed me looked at my resume and talked to me, and he refused to hire me because he said, I have way too much going for me. Wow. That's very cool. I'm so thankful for that because I tried to quit. And people might listen to like, know what No, I did. Guys, you look back two years ago, you might think I was like, killing it. I was struggling mentally because the story I was telling myself was so bad. I just I told myself how I feel like a fake and a phony. And this story I told myself, the story we tell ourselves sometimes gets so rough, and we're so bad to ourselves. Because of wanting more and or being jealous of what other people have or what we think they have. We only know what we see. We got to correct those stories. Yeah, and you have to find your value in different ways to like it can't just be how many people downloaded a thing or how many no likes? I love that you brought that up? Yeah. Okay. And I'd love to get your perspective on this too. The reason that doesn't work, is because external validation will never make up for internal validation, external circumstances, external Success and Support and external feedback will never be enough for a lack of internal feedback. So I'm sure you've dealt with this in your career. If you aren't proud of yourself, if you don't feel successful or appreciative or if you don't maintain the promises to yourself. No amount of external clapping, patting you on the back. We'll we'll fix that

Scott Benner 39:49
ever. I don't see the numbers as validation. I see the numbers as people reached. And I hope that that feels different to people when they're Listening because one of the episodes that I hear back about the most was Episode 11. So that means it happened in the beginning of 2015. And by hearing about it, I mean, it is the episode that more people point to and say that changed my perspective about diabetes. When I recorded Episode 11, I got as many downloads that month,

Unknown Speaker 40:23
as this show will get while you and I are talking. That's insane, right. And last month, I got more downloads than I think the first 18 months of the show combined.

Scott Benner 40:35
Wow. And it's easy to feel like that success. But in my heart, it's not. And I and I think how many people are living with diabetes, how many people use insulin every day? They don't know how to use it, how many people's blood sugars bounce around? Right? You start telling me Oh, 100,000 here, million over here. You know, it's nice. It's amazing. I know, I don't want to say nice. Like, it's dismissive. It's amazing. And I am thrilled by it. And it is. And it is led by the people who share the show with other people, I've never bought an ad anywhere on anything. And so that's all crazy. But if you think of it as people, until I get listened until you tell me there are 1.8 million people on the planet who have type one diabetes, and I received 1.8 million different emails, I don't feel done. And and that I used to think of was high minded. But now I think of it as purposeful.

Unknown Speaker 41:33
I think that's 100% purposeful. And even then, let's say 1.8 million people download that it messages like this, these conversations around diabetes, that our condition is continual, minute by minute constant, day in and day out changing. So 1.8 million downloads, that's amazing. But tomorrow is a new day, that's not gonna happen. You have to download daily, and I'm not talking about just this podcast, but you have to download daily, the idea that your diabetes is not defeating you, your diabetes, it just exists, it's not good or bad. It just exists. The beta cells in your pancreas are not, you know, not really working. So that's, that's where the story ends, right? Or that's where the story starts for a lot of people because they take that physiological thing, and they say, you know, what else I'm gonna bring into this story. Not only is diabetes, autoimmune disease, but diabetes is bad. Diabetes limits me diabetes, then we start telling ourselves, all of these things that diabetes doesn't do it, diabetes doesn't do anything else, aside from being an autoimmune disease. But it's a story we keep bringing back and you know, those downloads, you have to download daily, the idea that I did the things I needed to do, whether it was listening to a podcast, or listening to a talk or believing in yourself or checking your sugar, basic things, you have to download daily, the idea that I won this moment, I will win as many moments as I can. And when I lose moments, I will continue to move forward.

Scott Benner 43:04
I think it's important. Flexibility, I think, is what you're talking about too. And I think flexibility is incredibly important. Because you might think something right now, that turns out to be true in the moment, and it won't be true two weeks from now. Or maybe you're just wrong. I'm, I'm I ask people all the time when I'm talking to them. And I never I never think I'm saying it right. Or it's a thought I'm having that. I'm just not articulating, I guess, but I always wonder how many people are getting to the right and the wrong way. Like by mistake, like how many people are having health success by mistake. And even that worries me like, you know, you don't I mean, when somebody happens to people on MDI a lot, they'll use too much Basal insulin. And then they just strategically eat during the day so they don't get low. And they think well, I don't get low on my a one season the six is I'm doing great, except that they were to skip a meal. You know, they have

Chris Ruden 44:02
I have a very good concept around that. So people will say one of the phrases I hate the most and it's often applied to diabetes management is don't fix what's not broken. Have you heard that? Yeah, and I don't think let me talk about that. If we didn't fix what was not broken, we'd still be using candles instead of electricity. Candles worked amazing. Honestly, don't fix what's not broken. Okay, do this is what works for me. I will tell you that when you go to the restroom number two, you could wipe your butt with sandpaper because it would work. Or we can do what works best and use toilet paper. It's not about what works because a lot of times we get in trouble doing what works, because what works isn't what works best. We need to learn to optimize constantly, mentally, physically the way we take care of ourselves with your diabetes management team. It's not about what you've been doing that works. It's like what happens if there is better that we can fix, not that we're chasing better in the sense of like, you always have to be better. But sometimes you do need to take a step back. If you're so close to the wall, sometimes you're so close that you can't see the bigger picture until you back up, you know, and that that's the biggest issue. I tell people all the time. It's macro and micro, sometimes you have to look micro, and sometimes you have to step back and see 100% 100% it's not about just what works or what you've always done. Just because you've always done something one way doesn't make it right right now. And I saw it happen to me. I mean, I don't say anything on this podcast that I haven't experienced what happened to me, trust me, I still struggle daily, and I still make mistakes, constantly, I go to mental and 15 minutes late, there's gonna be a spike, you know, unless I'm using like inhaled insulin. I'm like, oh, man, I messed this up. It's normal. We make mistakes. Yeah, and you have that you just

Scott Benner 45:51
have to know how to, you have to know how to bounce. Like, you got to be able to stay loose. And, you know, just try to think of when somebody tried to teach a basketball when you were seven. It just keep your feet moving. You know, there's so many little things about how you how you succeed, that translate to bigger picture ideas. And I just want people to be able to see them sometimes because I don't have an episode for everything. I get notes all the time, like, do you have an episode that will specifically address my problem? And I'm like, Ah,

Chris Ruden 46:21
yeah, like, oddly specific, like maybe in the future. But as of right now, I don't think so you also have a ton of episodes. So I'm sure it can be tough to like, kind of look through, oh my gosh, sometimes I'm like, I think so. And that's the cool part, you have covered a lot. But there's so much more to cover. And that's why you'll always have things to talk about. Same thing with me and everyone, everyone has something to talk about. Because everyone has a story. Everyone can derive a message from that story. And everyone has a different perspective, we're all unique in the way we process and interpret information. So don't ever think that you're not good enough to share. Because you don't have to influence a crowd of 10,000 people or a million downloads, you can influence that one person, you know, and that one person might be might have been made, I vowed to be the person I never had growing up. And you might be helping that one person that could change the world or, you know, just changing the world can be helping one person. So I think people get a little too obsessed with scale, and not enough with the value that they bring. So it's not about quantity, when you said that a person's name popped into my head. And I can tell you that if I live 100 years, and that person's life is the only life I've ever impacted. I did a good thing. That's it. Yeah. And I know that's true every single time I speak. Yeah, if one person in the audience got a slightly better perspective for their personal life, I did my job.

Scott Benner 47:45
No, I definitely no, that's true, I'll tell you to that. The, the one place where scale matters to me is that the more people you get, as real listeners, not somebody who's heard an episode or two, the more feedback you get. And so then perspective start coming in where I get to go, I had never considered that. And then I get this consider, then after I consider I get to shape it into a message and put it out. And then it reaches other people who are not fringe, but maybe their problems just aren't as cookie cutter as some others, right. And that's how I feel like the podcast is turned into a repository, instead of just a show, like I do, I do genuinely believe, Chris, that if you went back to Episode One, and just listened through this, these episodes, I think you'd be psychologically more comfortable, I think you're a one seed might be in the fives. And I think diabetes would be easier for you than it was the day before you started. Now, I don't know if I can expect everyone to do that. But I'm happy to be able to say that I believe that thing exists. And

Chris Ruden 48:53
that's the good thing, though, is that you know, I don't mean this in any negative way whatsoever. But it's not your responsibility to have people take action, but it is your responsibility to give people the tools to take action. And you've done just that. And I feel like everyone should do that. Everyone needs to take responsibility for what they can manage which is truly what you think and how you react and sometimes it's hard yes easier said than done but better done than said but we all have an ability to do a little bit better and I know when I say that I there's a few things that pop in my head that I'm like yeah, I need to do better in these things. And I'm sure you know same thing if I asked you you know what do you need to do better at you probably have a few things. We all do. And it's we can't just stop it thinking yeah, I need to do better. It's like okay, what can I do to do better I don't need to fix everything today. I don't need to be at the finish line today. But I need to lace up well, it's definitely shade and go he just completely cliched, but I will be the best version of myself the day I die and that is sad. But I can't believe I'm just gonna say yeah,

Scott Benner 49:58
I say that confidently. isn't great. It's the it's it's I can't believe I'm just gonna like blurt out a T shirt here. But it's the journey. It really is like the journeys your life. It, I realize now that any dollar I put away, I'm putting it away for my kids and their kids kids, I don't think of it as like, Oh, you know what I'll be able to do one day, like when I was 20, I was like, if I save $100, I'll be able to get this stereo. Like, that's how it felt to me, like, I'll get this and then I'll have that. And now I just think like, you know, if I get some extra money, I'll put it aside and I'll give it to Colin Arden. And I know my wife feels the same way and having a partner who thinks the same is also really valuable. Like, the Chris, I have a slightly nicer car than I should. But I'm wearing a sweatshirt that I bought 25 years ago,

Chris Ruden 50:44
you never need to make up or validate why you do the things you do. Right? Why you get the things you get or whether it's good or bad you wearing clothes that you might deem not nice, or a car that you deem is too nice. Those are all personal decisions that make you happy in the moment, that's not a problem. No, some people are okay with a, you know, seven a one c some people are okay with a 4.9 a one see that the way you define your life is not to be judged by anyone else. Right. And I'll say this, I'll say this for anyone who judges people's agency chosen people's numbers or anything, thinking is hard. And that's why most people resort to judging. Yeah, that's interesting. And it's true. And it's prevalent too, I will tell you that the the backwards way that I built a Facebook group for the podcast, ended up really making it valuable, because I didn't start with

Scott Benner 51:43
a Facebook group. I started with a podcast. So we all listening have similar ideas about diabetes, and then they all come together in a place where they can actually kind of touch each other. And to see how kind and valuable they are to each other. And not judgmental is fascinating. Like, every once in a while someone will hear like, Oh, this is a good face. You know, it's so base, and base and simple. People will be like, Oh, I heard this Facebook group is where you get good a one sees that, you know, and then they show up. And they're they're like, and they're an outsider in that they haven't heard the show. Like they're actually people who will show up in the Facebook page, and some and they'll say to somebody, like, how did you do that. And some people say, Oh, I just listened to these episodes of the podcast, and they'll go what podcast. And I'm always fascinated by that, that the the you've

Chris Ruden 52:32
gotten to the point where people have known different parts of something that you don't consider as prominent, but maybe to them they do you know, and that's just shows the the leakage of value that has gone from your, your baby, your main thing, your podcast, to even the things you don't deem as important, like when he said you don't focus as much on Facebook or Instagram, but you still have that value. And that when you know, I guess this is this is the toughest part for a lot of people. When you know or think you know what your purpose or passion as in, you truly find fulfillment in something, when you just do it. You just did the podcast, that was your main focus, you know, you added the Facebook, you added the Instagram, but you just the podcast is everything. But the value goes so much farther than the intended platform. Because any platform you touch, whether you have five followers or 5 million followers, that value is still there. So those five followers will still feel value. And I love seeing that.

Scott Benner 53:28
No, it's it was unexpected, you're not wrong with that I didn't. I made that Facebook group because people asked me to it was not an idea of mine. And now I would tell you, it is and I you know, I guess I think it's because I'm another from another generation because I'm going to be 50 this summer. But to tell somebody that I am really proud of the Facebook group that I have feels odd to me.

Chris Ruden 53:51
Like and maybe that's just a relationship you have with Facebook, maybe you have preconceived notions about social media, and like we all kind of do, and certain platforms and things like maybe think I go, a lot of people are fake on social media, I don't want to be fake on social media. But social media, when used correctly, is just a platform, another platform to give value. You know, a hammer is great for building house, but it can also be used as weapon or it can break a window. It's not the tool itself, but how you use the tool and let's say not becoming the tool. Please don't do that. But seriously, you know, you've used the tool in a way that is value based. And regardless of your feelings about it, it's there. So deep, what do you think stops people from building things thoughtfully? Is it the is it that they don't want to wait? or fear 100% fear, fear of other people's opinions. We are terrified of how we think other people might view us which we'll never be able to know that's other people's opinions of us are not our responsibility to manage. And honestly, other people's opinions of us are not our business. They're not and if you are stopping the value that you possess If you are not giving the value because you are afraid that someone who you won't serve anyways is going to judge you. I think that's selfish. I think it's selfish on your part, to deny the perspective that could help someone else. Because of fear of something, someone might think that you can never know for sure, there was a person when I

Scott Benner 55:19
started this podcast, who I didn't know, I guess, but knew me through my blog, and reached out to me, and I ended up speaking with them. And they took that time to tell me that the way I deliver my message is wrong. And like, chastise me over. And I still remember that conversation, because what do you think about when you when you when they said that to you, what immediately went in your head was their doubt? I don't know. I knew they were wrong. I knew that. Okay, I know that the people who talked about diabetes did it in two basic of a way, that they were not clear enough. They were not blue collar enough that they didn't, they weren't complete enough. And I, the way I used to put it was, if you read a diabetes blog, it was a sentence of direction and a paragraph of apologizing for it. And it was sort of like you should Pre-Bolus because if you do this happens, and then basically a disclaimer, Pre-Bolus in could be dangerous, because so you just told them it was good, and then scared them out of it, you know, like I was like, and that was always that it was to me, most of the content that wasn't personal related, like people's feelings that was more technical, was inaccessible, incomplete, and left you more scared than when you're confused than when you got there. And I thought, I am going to be clear. And I am going to be

Unknown Speaker 56:44
complete. I'm not you remember how I said, you know, people do what works. And then you know, smart people do what works best. I feel like that's what you did, you took something that kind of worked, you know, the blogging space people, the way people talked about things, that kind of work, and you just made it better. Yeah. And I love that you had the confidence in knowing that what you're doing was so value based that if a million people lined up and said you were wrong, you would still keep doing it, because you believed in the value that you're presenting. Now, I will say a lot of people have a lot of doubts, because the stuff they're putting out, they don't believe in, you know, they don't truly believe they're chasing the finish line. And of course, there's going to be doubts when you don't have a rock solid foundation and knowing your value. You know, if I was trying to, to sell you an item for $100 that I knew was $20. I'm gonna have doubts. But if I'm selling selling you an item that's $100. And I know it's $100. If you offer me 90, I'm gonna say no, yeah, because I know the value in this like a $20 bill, when it's crumbled up, it doesn't lose its value, because it has wrinkles. It's the same thing when you know the price, the worth you have or the worth that you bring. And it doesn't fluctuate, no one can ever bring you down from that level.

Scott Benner 57:56
So I'll pull the curtain back a little bit here and tell you that things that people won't understand like, or might not know, like, for some of the advertisers on the show, I don't actually deal directly with a company I deal with, I'll deal with like a PR agency that the company pays, you know, to run their public relations stuff. And I will say in a meeting, and I believe that this will be impressive to you. I will tell people, I don't want all of your money right now. I want a reasonable amount every year. For as long as I can do this, I want you to be thrilled to send me a check. In my mind, you should be there going, oh, we're paying for these podcasts, I'd say best money we ever spent. I said because when you feel like that, that means that I've built a thing that's helping people, because it's the only reason why it will continue to exist. It's not a comedy podcast. We're not going over World War Two history, right? Like, if this podcast doesn't deliver on the level of entertaining and valuable for people with diabetes, it'll crumble. And if you're willing to buy an ad, that means it's helping people. And I said, so I have a long term goal in mind. I want this podcast to be alive. 10 years from now, I want to have to stop doing this podcast because I'm so old. I can't keep it up now because it fell apart. And so I don't think many people would say that on a business call. But that's what I tell them. I said I want you to be thrilled to send me money. And I want you to be thrilled for years not just today. There are too many people grabbing, like let me put I saw a person wants they got a guest on a show they thought was going to be a big deal. And they actually tried to shop the episode and and charge people a bunch of money to buy an ad on a single episode. And I thought no one listens to your podcast. They're not going to magically start listening to it because you actually landed a guest. Like that's not how this works, you know? But they thought it was it was it was a land grab. They're like let me see how much I can get right now right now. And I thought Boy, that's the mistake, like build something

Chris Ruden 59:59
As desperation moves like that, especially people thinking like it, I call it conditional happiness and just conditional situations where if I had x, then maybe y, you know, if I had this guess that maybe I could make some money. If This Then That. And when you set up those terms for your happiness, or the way you deem success or even your finances, you're always basing it on an external and outside thing. Yeah, versus if I was just giving value, then maybe value would come to me. It is that simple. It really is it so it's, it's easy. But the where the simplicity gets a little like diluted is, it's hard to break through those mental plateaus of knowing that you have to be consistent over time that and that goes with diabetes management that goes a business. I tell people a lot, you cannot replace consistency with intensity. And what I'm going to make it very clear, let's say you find a person you want to ask out guy or girl, and you know, the normal courtship, how your court someone, you would approach them in public, and you would say, Hey, I have flowers and a ring and I want to get married. And I will let's get pregnant tonight. And like I'm just no not gonna work. intensity, not good. Consistency, building over time develops a relationship. Intensity gets you a restraining order. Let's, let's make sure we're not trying to replace intensity just because you're excited right now, whether that's with your diabetes management, because you just saw a new endo, or you talk to someone like Gary shiner or read a book. We're all motivated when we're motivated. And then we want to be super intense. You know, I want to be in shape. So I'm going to go to the gym today. Tomorrow, the next day, I haven't gone to the gym for years, I'm going to only eat boiled chicken and water and broccoli. And in three days, I'm going to quit because this is terrible. Yeah. Because we try to replace consistency with intensity. And you cannot do that, right? I've seen companies do it too, like I've been I'm sure you have and you get approached, like we want to do a thing and we're gonna do this and come on out, we'll give you some money, and we'll get your opinion. And I'm like, No, thanks. Like why I'm like, I don't want to say there are many companies who try and throw money at the wall to see what sticks and nothing usually does. Because I've worked with companies that have done it incredibly well. And I've worked with companies that are solely based on money, they know nothing about me. They treat me like I hate the word influencer but influencer number 47. And they're like, yeah, you know, you have this engagement, and we will pay you this much you will deliver this message and I could you be any more robotic, right? Don't you understand that? Like, I'm one I'm a person too. I know my value. And I know what the people I serve what value they want. So if it's not native or natural, and it goes against like, I'm very big on authenticity, communication and community that we won't align. It's not going to work. Right.

Scott Benner 1:02:54
I I've only once been in a private conversation been called an influencer. And I stopped the conversation and said, I not only don't believe that's true, but I it makes me uncomfortable. And please never say it again. Yeah,

Chris Ruden 1:03:11
I truly believe everyone has influence and is capable of being an influencer. I think there's a negative connotation just because of where we're at. But I will also say the reverse of that is there are many influencers today who do not have influence and that is like a cheeseburger without cheese. Well, either Yeah, that's, that is really fascinating to see. And, and I have to admit, I watch it, you know, from afar with a little bit of interest.

Scott Benner 1:03:38
It's very fun. It is a I love watching people try to pretend that there's something they aren't online to, I guess, trick the thing into existence and then jump on it and ride it. Like that's always

Unknown Speaker 1:03:52
how it feels to me. For the people who aren't aware, I feel bad because it being an influencer wasn't a career, it was a byproduct of a career, you know, and people who actually have influence which are anyone you have influence, I have influence everyone who is willing to share a message on any medium has influence or potential influence. But now the term influencer is associated with engagement. When did we take influence out of influencer and make men make it engagement? Or, you know, that's really what it is? Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:04:29
I've had really long conversations recently with a newer PR company, where I just met this person and the person I was talking to told me that the entire idea of influencing just based on that, like, I took a picture of myself eating something, that kind of thing. She's like, it's dying. We don't believe in it anymore. And she's like, it will go away. She's like, it'll always work on big levels like Kim Kardashian, I'll do something she's like, but, you know, Jill, who decides she's got 5000 followers on something is going Start doing that she's like, we don't see that as working anymore. It goes back to what you said, which is,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:07
it may be I do have influence, but it's not like I woke up one day and said, you know what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna be an influencer.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:14
Yeah, you can't.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:15
That's it.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:16
It's the equivalent of people saying like, you know what? Today, I'm gonna go play for the dolphins, the Miami Dolphins. That's what I'm going to do today. And no, you're not because you didn't do the work, you didn't create the influence and influence is a byproduct of value. People are skipping, giving value and trying to go straight to influence. And again, I will say it and you guys probably heard it so many times. You cannot hang out at the finish line without running the race, your blood sugars will not be magically better without doing the work. If you continue not to do the things that make your blood sugars better. You cannot be upset that your blood sugars are not better. You can't be upset with the result for the work you didn't put in.

Scott Benner 1:05:59
Yeah, in the end it just it I'm if I have any influence over people, it's not in that bad connotation way that you're thinking is what I really have is, I think a podcast that's valuable. And because it's valuable other people listen to it. Yeah, then people who want to who want to get their message through your thing. See it as influence.

Chris Ruden 1:06:22
I love that you put it that way. Because so I called my book the upper hand one because you know, I have a prosthetic arm and I just make dad jokes because I think it's funny. But people like oh, upper hand, that's, that's bad. It's like manipulation. Like, I don't want people to get the upper hand over other people. I need you to get the upper hand over yourself and all the crap we tell ourselves, you know, going back to like the stories we tell ourselves, if you can't influence yourself to have better habits or live a better life, improve your management or anything like that. How could you want to be an influencer of others when you can't even influence yourself? We got to start asking better questions who are so self communication? You know, and then kind of go from there. I think people jumped the gun a lot in today's society. Yeah, no kidding. So what? What made you write a book, I guess? Like, I've just watched you do so many interesting things that like, I'll never forget the night I turned on the television. I was like, there's Chris running across the TV screen. That's Yeah, I mean, for me, it's always been, you know, people don't see that bottom of the iceberg. hiding my disability for 17 years really kind of wrecked me mentally, and diabetes as a catalyst for me to start being an advocate. But I was still hiding in plain sight. You know, I never felt authentic, I constantly felt like I was trying to be the image of what I wanted people to see me as never just being mean. So when we have these conversations, it really gives me like PTSD to think like, man, I used to live like this. You know, I live this fake, confident, fake, authentic lifestyle where I tried to appease everyone. And that's the number one way to be depressed, is to try and please everyone else by yourself. So this book, I've always wanted to write something along the lines of like self communication, because we hear the concept communication is key. But I think that is the second step because self communication is more key. You know, if you can't communicate yourself, how can you expect to communicate with other people? Well, this book is about overcoming obstacles and helping you get the upper hand over yourself. And I truly think that we can't do much all we can do is control our thoughts and actions and reactions. And that's what I want people to start doing. I can't there's no positive thinking there's no podcast, there's no motivational speech that you'll hear that will take away your diabetes. We know that there's no podcast or motivational speech that will make diabetes easier for your kid immediately. Yeah, but there is perspectives, there are things that we can do that can potentially help. And that's what you share on every one of your episodes, something some way whether it's mentally, physiologically, management wise, something we can do for me that something is the way we think. And I wrote this book in a digestible way to just help people think better. Cool, where can people get it? It comes out on May 4, and it'll be on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and stuff. But this, this is not a money making thing for me, like I'm working with a publisher, which is great and all but this has been a two year process and to see this come out, and to be able to hold it in my hand and read it. I get chills thinking about it. Because I'm like, man, I love giving these speeches. But when people go home, your motivation is like taking a bath. If you only do it once a year, I'm sorry, but you're gonna stink. You know, same thing with your podcasts, you don't, you can get those downloads or whatever. But you need people to keep listening to keep doing keep that perspective going. We need to keep doing these things. So I just really hope that that one person that I help when they start to get into a downfall or a pitfall, you know, yeah, maybe they read the book, maybe they listen to your podcast, maybe they do something extra to pick themselves back up. And that just gives me so much fulfillment. Well listen, I can Help people for certain I wrote a book and you don't make a lot of money from doing it. So you really want to write not. And again, we both know that money made money comes as a byproduct from giving value. And I don't look at opportunities anymore as money making opportunities. Obviously, we all need to live and have eaten before to insulin, which is a whole another story here, right? But money truly does come when you focus on giving value, I think is Brian Tracy, who said when you replace the word, so with help, you'll always have sales. And I found that to be very, very true. Yeah, I I've never heard that. But it's absolutely my finding as well. And it takes forever to write a book it is, um, oh, yeah, I put this off for so long. And I it's, I saw it in my notes section for years. And it's nice to see it come through. But it's, it's more exciting to know that if I were to read, if I would have read this when I was younger, it might have helped me. And that's truly what it is me talking to people who might think there's no options, there's no way out. And there is, you know, my story is in a little of the book, but it's more so easy to digest concepts of getting yourself out of those ruts. And like when burnout happens, it's okay, but what do we do after that? What do we do with what we have right now to make it better, or just make it suck a little bit less?

Scott Benner 1:11:23
I have to say that I think that the struggle you had when you were younger, is incredibly valuable for people in general to hear, like, in even people, especially, I guess maybe people with diabetes who might be wearing devices or something like that, because Chris, when you know, when I met you the first time I met you, but it is undeniable. Your arm is undeniable. Like you can't like there's no way for me not to notice it as a person who meets you for and I

Chris Ruden 1:11:49
believe, I don't know if did I meet you when I have my prosthetic arm? Or? No? I'm not. Sir, I think I might have met you when I want to do hiding my hand to be honest. Okay, I think I was still hiding my hand or no glove. And obviously, my arm is shorter. And you can notice the difference. But that was still when I was hiding. And it wasn't until like two years ago, I think that two or three years ago that I like took the gloves off and like that video went viral and all this stuff. But I was hiding a majority of my life. And I know a lot of people do that with their diabetes tech or their diabetes in general. Yeah. And I know the pain that comes from wearing a mask every single day, right. And for me, that mask was a physical glove. But for a lot of people, it's hiding their equipment, or it's hiding that they take shots or pretending like they don't have diabetes or moving a certain way that hides the things that help keep them alive. I know the pain that comes from not being authentic with yourself. And that hurts me to know that people experienced what I experienced. And I want to make sure that I reduce that as much as possible. Well,

Scott Benner 1:12:52
I think that when I see you online, or when you do things that you have a head up attitude that I hope translates to people with diabetes like mine, one of the things I'm happiest about for my daughter's that she'll go out with her, you know her on the pot on her stomach with a half shirt or on her thigh. I

Chris Ruden 1:13:05
love that so much. And I wish I see people like your daughter, and I'm like, I almost get a little envious because I'm like, Man, I wish I had that. That confidence. But it makes me so happy to see a younger person to see anyone but especially a younger person, own something that just owned me for so long. Well, I hope it helps you to know that I see you as a person who mirrors that confidence now, so I definitely feel that and it's it was a weight lifted to finally accept that my disability and my diabetes, were not who I am. It's just a part of who I am right. And that wasn't my full story. I'm not broken or useless or helpless or any of those synonyms with disability, you know, I just happened to have a few USB fingers and it makes it easier for Hide and Seek when I cover my eyes because I can see where you're hiding. Well listen, I'm going to say something I didn't think I was gonna say while we were talking. And I don't normally have an opinion about stuff like this, but your current physique is my favorite of yours. I can't believe this is actually so To be fair, I just did I just broke a 10 year goal of wanting to do a bodybuilding competition just because I judged my body for so long. And now we saw those guys on the magazines. I'm like, I want to do that. And I was told that I couldn't because of my my disability, right? I just did a competition against non disabled people and I took home first place congratulations and I someone asked me, they said are you going to wear your CGM? Are you allowed to wear your CGM and I wrote this, whether I'm allowed to wear my CGM or not onstage? I'm wearing my CGM, right. representation matters to me so much. So, at my show, I had my prosthetic arm I had my CGM. I took my arm off to show my limb difference. I didn't care about the competition. I cared about what that view what that look might do for someone. Maybe what it would do for me when I was younger, you know, and I got so many messages from families. Kids and people just saying, like, seeing you, they're seeing you on TV seeing you do these things, you are giving me hope in that. Man, I can't even explain what that means to me.

Scott Benner 1:15:11
I understand. And I believe it. And I'll tell you that I'm seeing you do that. And seeing the incredible shape of you changed your body. It's why that I still to this day, when people are having trouble exercising with diabetes, I'll point them back to a number of different episodes, but yours 201. I point them back to because you talked about, you know, different ways of managing weight and stuff like that, and, and physique and health. It just, I think it all just kind of coalesce together, right? Like I am. At my core, when I talk about diabetes with people, I tell them, you got to get your basil, right, you need to Pre-Bolus a lot of your meals need to understand the glycemic load index of foods and be flexible, right? because not everything is always going to go the same way. That to me is the core. Like I think that's the base of it. And then people come along and say, but I fall while I'm exercising. And I'll tell them, I think that if you had this core together, you wouldn't fall when you were exercising, or it wouldn't be as drastic or it wouldn't be as scary. And you'd learn over time, how to balance it. And that's the work right? Like that's the that's the not the running the race.

Chris Ruden 1:16:21
Yeah, it's the running of the race, you have to do that part. You can't just tell me, I don't want to fall while I'm at soccer. I know you don't. But you got to go fix your base. You know, what's funny, what that also is, is that person who's asking for money for that one episode. That's the exact same thing. Yeah, that's that concept of trying to solve one small issue pretending that it's in a vacuum, you can't just have good sugars for that one soccer game, you have to understand conceptually, you might have insulin on board, you might be increased insulin sensitivity, or that intensity might have caused that anaerobic effect where you get a spike, and then that post, you know, low, if you don't take time to understand your condition, we almost don't have a right to be upset that our condition flat back, you know, yeah, great to be resource, we have to listen to these things like the podcasts you put out or reading these books that come out from these prominent, you know, medical people in our space. The value and the resources are there. And I know accessibility can be a thing, but the community is free as well. So I just I really need people to to run the race. So I really need people to run the race. Well, I hope everybody checks you out. What are you on Instagram is just my name at Chris rudan and Twitter's at Chris Rutan YouTube. And my website is Chris run calm. I'll be posting about my book and stuff. And I do a bunch of things in the space with like different foods and all that. But at the end of the day, I'm always available to talk. So you have an open year you have a shoulder to talk to and I'm, I'm around yeah, check Chris out. He's he's got a unique perspective. And he does a really good job, as you've heard for the last hour talking about it. So I'm a big fan of Chris, and I appreciate you doing this. I appreciate what you do as well, man, and we're all running the race and maybe, maybe there is no finish line. Maybe the finish line is running the race.

Scott Benner 1:18:18
Huge thanks to Dexcom and Omni pod for sponsoring this episode of the Juicebox Podcast. Find out more about the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor@dexcom.com Ford slash juicebox. And find out if you're eligible for that free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash at Omni pod.com. forward slash juicebox. Another thank you to Chris Rutan, author of the upper hand leveraging limitations to turn adversity into advantage. You can learn more about Chris at Chris rutan.com. And he's also an Instagram. If you want to see what I was talking about. I know if I can do it real quick before the music runs out. I might not make them. I am not making music. Dammit, I still did it though. Chris Rudin is on Instagram at Chris Rutan. And you can do a little scrolling back there and see what I mean. The man is in wicked shape right now. Crazy. Hey, while I've got your attention if you're looking for the diabetes pro tip episodes, they begin at Episode 210. And you can also see them listed out at diabetes pro tip com. Also on that page, you'll find the defining diabetes episodes, and all other kinds of useful links for the podcast. If you're enjoying the show, please leave a positive and exciting and thoughtful review wherever you listen and tell a friend that really is the best way to help the show to grow. And I didn't rhyme on purpose. But if you want to help the show to grow, share it with a friend. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode.

#474 Sitting in a Tree

May 03, 2021Scott Benner

Natalie and Stephen have a type 1 diabetes love story

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Scott Benner 0:11
Hello friends and welcome to Episode 474 of the Juicebox Podcast. Today, we're going to be speaking with a couple battling Stephen are very interesting because of their dynamic around type one diabetes. And for a number of other reasons that you'll find out as you listen. Hey, don't forget that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin.

You can follow the Juicebox Podcast on Instagram at Juicebox Podcast on Facebook at bold with insulin, and there's a private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. And of course, everything else that you need is at Juicebox podcast.com. If you're listening in an app, please don't forget to follow or subscribe. If you're listening online, you could listen to that it's pretty easy, but listening online is fine, I guess. Just not have the kids do it.

This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. g vo hypo Penn. Find out more at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. The episode is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. Find out more at Contour Next one.com Ford slash juicebox. You may be eligible for a free meter, head over to the link and find out.

Natalie 1:54
Hi, I'm Natalie. I'm a software developer. And I've been with Stephen for maybe four years at this point and had no idea what diabetes was before but

Unknown Speaker 2:03
Stephen Who?

Stephen 2:05
Steven me.

Scott Benner 2:07
See you guys are getting this. This is fantastic. We don't do many with with more than two people. So I don't even know how good I am at it. Alright, so Steven, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Stephen 2:18
I'm Stephen and 32. Yeah, 30 to 30 figured out. It's hard to keep track. Steven, I

Scott Benner 2:28
don't know how old I am either. So

Stephen 2:32
I was diagnosed as type one diabetic. The summer before my last semester of college. I graduated in winter. That would be 2009 2000. January 2010 was the original official diagnosis. So I've been living with diabetes for about 10 years managing, managing and myself and then Natalie and I met and got married, like three years ago. And it's been a great ride since

Scott Benner 3:02
Natalie, did he trick you? Or is he? Is he still the same?

Natalie 3:08
No, he's the same. He told me about it while we were dating, although in kind of a roundabout way by asking how many carbs were in something that I cooked?

Scott Benner 3:17
Well, I meant that he trick you. Like, is he a jerk? And he was pretending that he was or something like that. But you've brought something up? That's incredibly interesting when that happened. And by the way, you were cooking for him in college?

Natalie 3:31
No, we met I was I've been working we worked at the same place. So we met four years ago and we got married like two and a half. Oh,

Scott Benner 3:41
my my questions are piling up. Okay, hold on. Have you guys ever like, fold around at work?

Natalie 3:48
Um, we held hands. And that's about it. I think he took me outside to give me a kiss once when I was nervous.

Scott Benner 3:54
Oh, that's lovely. So you cooked for him? How long? Had you known him before you cooked for him?

Natalie 4:02
I'm actually not that long. We weren't dating. I like to cook. And I'm that's how I show that I care for my friends. So we were going to go on a hike and I thought it would be nice to bring along a lunch.

Scott Benner 4:21
Well, I would have married you too. Is this what happens before? You're like she's way nicer than other girls.

Stephen 4:30
Yeah, it was a whole lot more involved than I expected it to be. I was expecting a peanut butter jelly sandwiches. But it was all Japanese foods. That

Scott Benner 4:40
was it the choices that took you by surprise and forced you to tell her?

Stephen 4:46
No, it was more. I have no idea what this is. And I've never seen something like this before. So she made it so maybe she knows. Gotcha. Now Steven,

Scott Benner 4:55
be honest for a second. We've heard from Natalie. She's delightful and She was just a friend, but you were trying to go out in that way, right?

Stephen 5:06
It's a little bit of a complicated story. I wasn't exactly looking to date at the time, I was just looking for friends. And it seems like girls are more willing to hang out with people. So we were hanging out. But it didn't take very long until I was definitely interested in certain pursuing her more seriously.

Scott Benner 5:27
Alright, nice. Well, I have to concur with you. I have a, I guess, a unique situation where I've been a stay at home dad for so long, that most of my interactions during the day are with women. And if I'm being 100% honest, talking to guys gets old, pretty quick. If you're interested in conversation, I think once you get past sports, boobs and cars, there's not a lot left. They don't, they don't start digging in on the big the big ideas of the day. And I'm generalizing, there are some guys, I've very good friends who can talk about anything. But for the most part, I've met a lot of guys that grunt in point. And, and that's sort of it. So I get your idea of like, you know, let's find some nice friends this way. How many carbs were in the food.

Natalie 6:18
I didn't realize that he was going that it would affect that we'd be hiking and his carb ratio was off. So he went low, but the number of carbs. It was like 30 from the rice 30 or 40. And I mean, this was years ago. And then there was another five or seven from the sugar in a miso paste. And then another five or 10 from a couple of other things that I barely remember.

Scott Benner 6:45
Natalie, this is how you got Steven, you knew that that day without knowing he needed to know. Yes. Wow. Why are you a savant? What is

Natalie 6:56
um, I had been tracking the macronutrients, so protein, fat, and carbs and food in college, because I was tired of packing your lunch go into class, eating the lunch, having another four hours of class and being hungry before the end of it. So I was trying to figure out different combinations that were satisfying

Unknown Speaker 7:15
kind of work do you do?

Natalie 7:17
I'm, I'm a software developer. I started out in biomedical engineering, and did research and didn't like the staying in the lab all day.

Scott Benner 7:25
Okay, I know you told me that. And I didn't mean to say what were you going to college for? But I'm not nearly as smart as you. So the words just came out wrong. Stephen, what do you do?

Stephen 7:35
I'm also a software developer. I started as a an IT tech basically, and work my way into the developer track. I'm like Natalie, who just jumped right into it. Well,

Scott Benner 7:46
she's brilliant. How would she not? Yeah, yeah. Seriously, I in my wildest dreams prior to diabetes, if someone would have said how many carbs are in this? I would have been like, what what do you thought just shut up?

Stephen 8:01
That's a curb. It's a food.

Scott Benner 8:02
Yes. Yeah. It's bread. So so he got low. So so you bolused or injected? I'm not sure which, and, but it's a Bolus, even if it comes through a needle, and you got low because then you went on a hike. And yeah, and Natalie, this not scare you away at all.

Natalie 8:24
Oh, I was nervous. Um, well, I guess we should correct it. We were about to go on a hike and he went low, his carb ratio was off very drastically. We learned later. Okay. And so we waited it out. We just walked around and talked. And when we started the hike, I guess the interesting part is maybe half an hour or an hour in he ran out of insulin completely.

Scott Benner 8:47
Way to go, Steven. So he's, he said you whip out the food. He's like, I need to know how many carbs it says because I have type one diabetes and I use insulin. He use too much insulin got low ran out of insulin. Yes, classic first date. I wouldn't count this as my first date either if I was the two of you, I think. So Steven, how does that happen? But how old were you back then?

Stephen 9:15
That was just four years ago. It happens because I live a mostly sedentary lifestyle and hiking wasn't usually on my activities to do. It's still the case now but I will be drastically affected by exercise or moving around. And my my blood sugar will just drop. I've been on several insulin pumps and just kept the same carb ratio and insulin sensitivity factor up until recently when we switched to a Doa algorithm. Yeah. But at that time, it was just I hadn't considered that when you're having meals right? Before activity, you don't just for the full meal. So it's just something that a lapse on my part. I,

Scott Benner 10:08
I was I was cracking up and holding it in when you said I'm usually sedentary like I imagined you, like, you know, I do need a friend this Stephanie girl seems nice or Natalie girl seems nice. Excuse me. And, and but she wants to go for a walk on a hill must have been like I don't do those things. And why is this happening to me? See, Natalie, he did like you he doesn't go for a walk for anybody. He doesn't know what he thought I'm I'm passing judgment right now. He was he was smitten already. Okay, so this is interesting. So you've moved from pump the pump the pump in your life, and just kind of blindly taken settings with you? Were you having great results, and therefore, you wanted to mimic them? And that's why you moved the settings? Or did you just not really consider them that that that? Well.

Stephen 10:59
I think I had gotten pretty much a decent idea of what it was from my initial diagnosis. So I had gotten them dialed in for my lifestyle at that time. But I believe that my Basal rate was too high, and my carb ratio was too low for that reason, or vice versa. I forget what it was.

Scott Benner 11:22
So I find I'm sorry, I find when people leave injections and go to pumps, they they end up falling into one or two categories. Either they were having this great success on MDI. And it's sometimes because their Basal insulin was heavier maybe than it should have been. And it was kind of masking mistakes with meals. And they were eating frequently enough to it for it not to cause them a problem. Or you know, sometimes doctors will scale all of your settings back and your blood sugar's will rise up greatly when you move to a pump because for some reason they want to fine tune from lesser to more. That's a bit but something's missing here though. I'm not sure what it is yet. Stephen, we're going to get to the to the core of this year. But how did you guys end up managing together? Like what? Because you just said something really interesting a second ago, Stephen, you said we moved to a DIY solution. You said we like you and Natalie are just like one brain on this is not the case.

Stephen 12:28
It's pretty close. Natalie, what do you think?

Natalie 12:31
I am, excuse me, I am pretty quick to check blood sugar. So I have a bit I think I usually have a better feel for where Stephen is at any given time. Not because I'm nervously checking it but because my I don't know what to do in this particular moment is pick up my phone and instead of going to some other app or checking the internet, the first thing I check is what student's blood sugar. Okay. And from doing that. More recently, I think I have a good feel for Hey, by the way, you need a sip of juice, or let's take a quick walk to kick things in a little bit faster and stop this stuff this trend up. But before we switch to the DIY loop, I was more just carb management.

Unknown Speaker 13:17
Okay,

Natalie 13:17
I really think but carbs are I mean, they're a pretty important factor. I trust his basil rates, right? So it was more just when we're about to mess up, whatever, whatever he's at. He needs to know accurately.

Stephen 13:33
So Steve, yeah. And God, please, I think that it started when she started making lunches for me when we we ended up working at the same places how we how we met initially. But I would bring prepackaged food and lunches with nutrition facts panels on them, and dose an estimate that way. But then sometimes I forget my lunch. And Natalie was making food and she offered to make lunch, just two servings instead of one. And so I started to rely on her for carb counts and things like that, because she made the food so she knows what's in it. And that just continued on. We really debated about switching to the DIY pump because it was an expense that wasn't going to be covered by insurance, but did a ton of research into it and figured it would probably be worth it. People are really saying that this is the way to go. And they have a whole lot more control over it. To give a brief history of the Thompson CGM that I've been on. I believe I started with an animus ping and then switch to the vibe or vice versa. And then that was after six months of being on MDMA and because of the initial diagnosis then NMS was Going away and I switch to a I forget to switch to something in between but then I was on the Medtronic six, seven ag because that was the first hybrid closes this whole hybrid closed loop system that was available for the market. And then we get really frustrated with that. That was after we had gotten married. And so it made the jump to DIY algorithm a little bit easier, and much more refreshing because it didn't have all the calibration, alarms and things like that. through that time with the animist, I had the Dexcom CGM, the g4 and then the G five. And then the Medtronic CGM with the 670. And now I'm back on the Dexcom g six, which is also so much better because no calibrations.

Scott Benner 16:00
Yeah, I wonder if your backgrounds don't lend to the, to the loop as well, right, being able to see more granularly how things work. And you guys must do Did you kind of seamlessly understand building the app and all that stuff that must have seemed like a walk in the park to you, right?

Stephen 16:18
It wasn't necessarily a walk in the park. But we actually tried to start writing an Android app before digging into the DIY one. So that brief tastes, we didn't get very far to the end to that at all. But that brief tasted, it was just Oh, it's another code project. And you click Build and put it on your phone.

Scott Benner 16:42
And that's that's how that works. So she's not like me sitting here, sweating and leaning over the desk and thinking that you're about to screw the whole thing up entirely, constantly while you're looking at it and people are texting constantly. I'm in a panic when I'm doing it normally. Although, you know, it's funny for me is that I can't my level of focus is it doesn't, it doesn't change for the situation. So I can't, I can't force myself to read through something. So when all that information comes up on the front, I just scan it for what I think looks important. I can't believe I ever got that thing belt even with help to be perfectly honest with you. There's something fascinating about the two of you, and we haven't figured out what it is yet. Natalie, why do you want to help him with this diabetes and Steven, then the question to you is did you want help? Or was it just there and you were like, Huh, cool. We'll do it together. chivo Kibo pen has no visible needle, and it's the first pre mixed autoinjector of glucagon for very low blood sugar and adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Not only is chivo hypo pen simple to administer, but it's simple to learn more about, all you have to do is go to G Vogue glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox. g Vogue shouldn't be used in patients with insulin, Noma or pheochromocytoma. Visit g Vogue glucagon.com slash risk.

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Natalie 20:15
think part of it goes back to I said that I show care or affection by making food for people, it could be generalized more to helping. So I'm like in college, if a friend was sick, I was constantly bringing them things asking if I could run to the store for them. If someone was working on a project, I wouldn't leave their side until the project. Like, if we were working on a group project, excuse me, then I wouldn't leave their side until the project was done. Even when the other teammates said, well, there's only one part left. So we're out of here. And that's just my mentality. I have a good knack for remembering and noticing things. So what I noticed Stephen would forget to change the exercise mode on his pump while we were walking or something. If I remembered, why wouldn't I help? And especially if I want him? He's five years older than me. So if I want him to live roughly the same, like the time is diabetes.

Scott Benner 21:11
She's already planning for your death, Steven, okay. You know, 4050 more years. I'm gonna have to find another guy if he can't hold on. Wait, wait. So Natalie, not to play pop psychologist too much but divorced parents

Natalie 21:25
know. Uh, huh. I'm sorry.

Scott Benner 21:28
Did you have a sibling with an issue?

Natalie 21:30
No. My mom was concerned that Stephen had diabetes. When we were dating. She said, Are you prepared to deal with that? And I looked into it and the records I SAW said diabetics died 15 years before they normally would. And I was like, that's 20 years difference in women already live longer than men. That sounds very sad. So that became important to me. Sure, if this if I'm going to marry this person, and we're supposed to live together for the rest of our lives, then I'd like that to actually be for the rest of our lives.

Scott Benner 22:03
Wow. You're just a genuinely kind person. Alright, let's just real quick. You don't like? Like kick puppies, or there's nothing we're missing here about you. Right? Like there's like you're not running a cult. But nothing weird. Like, you're just you're seriously, why are you so nice. Dammit. I want to know, Steven, I can't move on till I find out why Natalie is so nice. What part of the country? You're from

Unknown Speaker 22:27
Tennessee.

Scott Benner 22:28
Southern. I see. Okay, now we're getting to why wait, wait, you guys don't have the accent Really?

Natalie 22:34
My mom is from Wisconsin. And my dad is from Texas. And I think they canceled out.

Scott Benner 22:39
I just heard the con in Wisconsin, so let's not get crazy. Okay, Natalie. I heard that a little bit. Alright, so that was okay. But you Steven, do you know what I'm saying? Did you all feel too good to be true? Does Natalie still feel stupid to be like I'm thinking of telling my wife to get out? And then I'm gonna go try to find Natalie. Is she like the kindest person you've ever met? What what? How do you see her?

Stephen 23:03
Well, I won't share. That's for sure.

Scott Benner 23:05
Yeah, well, I'll find you if I have to say that.

Stephen 23:09
You have to you have to just like Jakob insulin pump or something. But anyways, you won't

Unknown Speaker 23:14
be that hard to get rid of Steven, don't worry about you know how this way I can handle it.

Stephen 23:20
But yeah, she's she's been amazing. The best helpmate I could have ever asked for and more. All of our friends also say, you know, you guys are perfectly matched to because Natalie wants to help. And she gets into the insulin and diabetes just as much as you should.

Scott Benner 23:39
You should be better at diabetes than you are.

Stephen 23:42
Um, I may have helped with that being a more passive in it. But I think she's pretty great at it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 23:49
Well, and you can see her getting better at it. And have you learned Do you guys learn from each other? In this process? Like? Or is one of you more of the learner? And the other one just is like, Oh, that sounds reasonable. I'll do it.

Stephen 24:04
I will do a ton of research on things and not necessarily implement them. And then I'll share things with Natalie and she'll think about it too. She else is good at researching and actually acting on it. So I think that it's a it's a complimentary relationship.

Scott Benner 24:24
What Stephen what what stops you from being proactive once you have the information?

Stephen 24:30
If it's something that I'm excited about, then I'll definitely do it. But I'm more of a I need to know everything before I do something. So gather information for longer than I should. Before just working with what I have. Steven, you've

Scott Benner 24:46
heard that saying right? Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

Stephen 24:51
I've heard it a lot.

Unknown Speaker 24:52
Yeah. Do people say it to you constantly. Natalie Is it is it frustrating?

Natalie 25:01
I think it can be. But I'm pretty patient and the fact that Steven is very patient with me saying, hey, by the way, do you think you could do this right now? Like, Hey, I see your rising, can you stop what you're doing and dose really fast or something like that. And it makes me way more forgiving. If he's trying, that's what I care about. So if he's willing to work with me, as long as somebody is managing it, I'm good.

Scott Benner 25:26
I have 40 more minutes to either break you guys up or prove you're the perfect couple. I'm not going to stop and so they get it because I'm, I'm very fast and like, I'm not judging you. I'm really fascinated about your interplay. It's, um, it's, it's uncommon. I would, I would think, Steven, you're ready that if Natalie is or has a baby, the baby will become her boyfriend and you will now be the guy who gets like, groceries right? You understand that? You'll become like a major Domo in the situation at some point.

Stephen 25:55
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's that's definitely accepted. That'll happen. Good, but I already go. I already go on errands for and do things for that she needs so I think it will be too much.

Scott Benner 26:09
I'm resisting the urge to be sexist and crass and say that you must be amazing in other ways. Steven, things are good. Otherwise.

Stephen 26:25
Yeah, things are good.

Scott Benner 26:27
They are Natalie white. What are you? You're like a Svengali. Natalie.

Unknown Speaker 26:32
Do you know the word? actually don't

Scott Benner 26:34
Okay, hold on a second. We'll do it together. It's a it's an oddly spelled word. Don't worry. I think I can figure it out. There it is. Ah, okay. Oh my god, I mistakenly, some people from the northeast laugh about this. I mistakenly googled svengoolie which was like a guy on like, access television. I'm making myself laugh and you have no idea what I'm doing.

Unknown Speaker 27:07
I apologize.

Scott Benner 27:09
Svengali is like somebody who could who has like a like a magical type hold over somebody. Like you like your something's hot. Why? Why can't I figure this out? What's going on? Alright, let's dig deeper. Are we very religious?

Unknown Speaker 27:25
Oh, yeah. Both. Go ahead.

Natalie 27:28
Oh, I would say yes. But not in the militant sense.

Scott Benner 27:33
Okay. In the kindness and grace sense.

Natalie 27:38
We do have. Chris, we're both Christian. And we do act on that and practice it. But we're not in the group of people yelling at people on the sidewalk. Oh, does that make sense?

Scott Benner 27:52
I appreciate that. You're not yelling at me? And because there's no, you understand that I'm from the northeast, everybody listening is like why can't scotch just accept these people are crying. I'm accepting it. I'm trying to understand. Like, I don't know how you get to like listen alley, not for nothing You and I are really similar. So I, I care like very deeply about the people around me. I spend a lot of time paying attention to them. I you know, finally had a day off on Saturday morning last week. And I remembered that someone asked for sugar cookie. So I spent like three hours making sugar cookies. While I was making them. I thought I could be doing so many other things right now. But it made me happy to make the cookies and then you know, it's not like they're only a few cookies, people ate them and or didn't I make dinner and go shopping and I pay attention to everybody's needs. But they don't seem to excuse me. I don't think they your your your interplay here, like I said is really interesting because Stephens aware of it. Whereas when you do it for children, or even sometimes a spouse when you've been married for longer, I don't think they notice and even see sometimes that people can feel I don't want to say resentful, but when they notice you're concerned about them. It's almost like they don't want you to be but you guys have none of that going on. So I'm trying to figure out why you're so nice. So that's why I'm asking weird questions.

Natalie 29:20
I get that. I asked why Steven isn't upset with how much I care fairly often.

Scott Benner 29:26
Oh, you think he should push back and you're weirded out that he doesn't?

Natalie 29:30
I'm scared that he'll push back. And I'm very grateful that he doesn't,

Stephen 29:35
because you know, one day I'll just have enough of it. And he's like,

Scott Benner 29:38
stop helping me. Alright, so Steven, but you don't feel like that?

Stephen 29:42
No, I don't think so. I think that it's it lightens the load. If it was just me dealing with my diabetes and other things, then it would be something that I would be hiding or keeping to myself. And so if she's willing to assist, I would be happy if she was just aware of it. And you know, gave gave some small input when I asked for it, but she does so much more.

Scott Benner 30:07
Now it sounds like it like Natalie, could you manage other people to do you think? Like if I just like sent you somebody Dexcom graph, do you think you could make reasonable assertions about their care? Are you at that level?

Natalie 30:21
Um, while I might be able to I think the problem is I only have exposure to Medtronic. And he switched to the six seven, he actually pretty early into a relationship not it was before we were married, and then the current loop system. So with Medtronic, I didn't even realize that your receiver for the CGM data and the pump weren't always the same thing. So there are a lot of things that I'm like, wait, what, as we listen to this podcast, there, that's separate components, or you can actually just mess with basil rates, and it doesn't fight you on it, or so on.

Scott Benner 31:00
So the podcast so you guys, alright, so do you guys listen together or separately? Or does just you Natalie.

Natalie 31:08
Stephen started listening to it, actually. And then he had me start listening for the pro tip episodes, and then to hear about your experiences with the DIY algorithm. And I was really interested in the podcast, and we tend to listen to podcasts together. Anyway, we both work from home right now. And I frequently work from home while Stephen is a remote worker. So if we're both doing something that's a little bit monotonous, like building code, then it's nice to listen to podcasts. So we were already in that habit. And I think Stephen has been listening to a few without me and then starting the ones that I would find interesting.

Scott Benner 31:50
Okay. So you understand that I think it's lovely that you guys listen together, and it really warms my heart. And then the person inside of me who wants more downloads is absolutely, absolutely irritated that you're listening on one device. Excuse me, and not listening separately on different devices. I'm torn between the kindness of the story and my needs. But no, no, that that's so Steven, you found it first.

Stephen 32:20
Yeah. Back when I was working on researching the DIY algorithm. The there was discord that dealt with, or was a community for diabetics. And so I hopped under that. And also started looking for type one diabetic podcasts and found a couple, they had one that they mentioned. And then I think I found yours. That was really it. That may have been one of those that I started listening to and stuff listening to. But yeah, I listened to a lot of podcasts. So adding one more wasn't a terrible deal. And this was relevant to our lives.

Scott Benner 33:00
Can I take a detour for a second and ask you a question for myself? If you're a person who listens to a lot of podcasts, is this podcast good for a diabetes podcast? Or is it a good podcast? Be honest.

Stephen 33:16
Well, it is a good diabetes podcast. But I think that it's it's a good podcast in general, even if it's not going to be something that's applicable to us, we still enjoy listening because you have a great demeanor with the guests.

Scott Benner 33:30
I have my hands up over my head. I'm celebrating privately in my room. Thank you. It is my goal to do this, to do what you described. And and I understand that this is not a perfectly controlled setting, because you may feel pressured to answer that way. But I believe you mainly because you appear to be two of the kindest people in the world. And I feel like you would tell me the truth in a way that would break my heart. If you've not the opposite.

Stephen 33:57
has been definitely there definitely been podcasts that I've stopped listening to because they were boring or irrelevant, or, or other reasons. But we get a kick out of listening to Juicebox

Scott Benner 34:08
Podcast. Excellent. Plus, I must seem crazy to you. Do I Natalie, you are you answer this one place?

Natalie 34:18
Um, I think the only comments that I've had have been this guy is super nice. And he's very good. He's very well suited for an interview style podcast. You're using passionate but I wouldn't say crazy.

Scott Benner 34:31
Thank you. See, you guys could well you can't move to the northeast. Now. No one's allowed to move around the country. But you should come here. We're pretty nice. Some of us I know some horrible people too, but I'm sure there are horrible people everywhere. So this is I am very passionate about it. Natalie, I I genuinely believe in my heart that there's no reason for people to struggle, although there are you know, of course, 1000s of reasons why they do struggle. I'm I'm a big fan of getting good information into people's hands so that they can do their best with it. It sounds like you guys are doing that. So, Steven, can I ask what your a one C is?

Stephen 35:12
I don't have my most recent one. See? I know it was in the fives though.

Unknown Speaker 35:18
Well, Natalie,

Stephen 35:19
do you remember? It was 5.3? Natalie knows? Good.

Natalie 35:22
I think it was 5.44.

Scott Benner 35:27
Is that with what kind of variability? Are you guys tracking that kind of stuff time and range? coefficient? What does that I count

Stephen 35:36
deviation is usually usually around 30. I think. Recently, it's been a little bit wonky. So up to 40.

Unknown Speaker 35:46
I blame Natalie.

Unknown Speaker 35:48
I blame insulin.

Unknown Speaker 35:50
Yeah.

Scott Benner 35:51
How so Natalie, tell me.

Natalie 35:53
I'm Stephen switch to keeping his keeping, filling the vial more than he normally does and using it up. So it was going longer than the usual three days. And we were dealing with a lot of bad insulin days.

Scott Benner 36:07
This is the witch pump now.

Stephen 36:13
So the app is Android APS. I'm using it with the Medtronic. 753. Right. So the the reservoir goes up to 300 units, but I've never filled it that fill. I had been filling it to 200. But we've been exercising more recently. And so my insulin needs have gone down. So I really only need 100 units for three days. So having it in for a week was not not a good idea.

Scott Benner 36:40
Gotcha. Hey, um, for the life of me, I can't think of her name. But the person who developed this the the algorithm that you're using the Android APS, she's been on the show.

Stephen 36:54
Well, yeah, I think we listen to that episode. Katie. Decent. No,

Scott Benner 36:58
no, no, no, hold on a second. Wait, you're using? You're not using lube. You're using the APS?

Stephen 37:06
Oh, yeah, we're using APS.

Scott Benner 37:10
I have to think of her name now. Because I don't want to just skip over it. Because it's amazing. She was way out ahead of other people on this. And why can't I hold on a second?

I feel terrible. Because I had her on and her. Was it her boyfriend? Are they were they married at the time? I can't think

Stephen 37:35
Oh, yeah. The openaps. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

Scott Benner 37:40
Is that what you're using?

Stephen 37:42
So with? Yeah, we looked at that one versus one that was an app on the phone. We both have Android phones. Because that's my preference. And so open APS is something that you build with a little device that has a radio separate from your phone, and you can check with it. Check what it's doing on nightscout. Yep. Android, APS basically takes that algorithm and puts it on your phone. So I can control everything from my phone with the other link, similar to how the loop works. Yes. Yeah. How that works.

Scott Benner 38:15
And they are, and I have I, I did something that makes me feel Emma said, douchey. That's a word. I can say that. But I searched on my own site, which I don't know why it makes me feel silly. But it does. Dana Lewis. And it was her husband, Scott Lybrand. And they were actually in concurrent episodes number 63 and 64. And this was so many years ago, that it was just, it was just alien to me that, that she had built this algorithm and done all this. And now, of course, you know, there's loop as well. And, you know, all the companies are bringing their algorithms to market and it just it seems so normal at the point at this point, but, um, but yeah, okay, so Dana and her husband, Scott, I apologize for not to them for not being able to pull their names out of my head very quickly. So you are just an Android person, which I assumed being a developer. That makes sense to me, right? Why do developers like Android better than iPhone?

Stephen 39:19
I would say it's because it's more customizable. You can do more things with it. And it's not locked down to one system.

Scott Benner 39:31
Why do corporations prefer iPhone over Android?

Natalie 39:36
Exactly the opposite reason. It's less customizable, so they're better able to control the security on it.

Scott Benner 39:42
Okay. So that's interesting, you know, the, okay. I lost my thought, but that that that makes sense to me. So if you're going to build something, especially a medical device, and you're going to market it, you don't want people fiddling with it, for many, many reasons. And if you're going to make something That's actually DIY, then you have to give them the ability to, to work on it. And I guess with lube, it's through x code and being able to get in there and make changes if you want to. And with the other one, it's because it's on an Android platform, so it's more accessible to how much does your background help you with it?

Stephen 40:22
Um, I've been able to tweak a couple things in the code. But I haven't really messed with it too much. Mostly, I'm a participant on the outside, I've got an issue, Hey, what's going on here? And I'll ask other people for help with it. You provide feedback on something that I really want to dive into? Gotcha. I haven't spent too much time with that.

Scott Benner 40:43
I mean, if it works, right, so I mean, what what needs to be done to it? I would imagine, like your that's not your life developing this. You're just trying to live. And it's doing a great job for you. I mean, you're a one sees terrific, your deviation. Sounds good. You know. And it's interesting, too, that you were able to see so quickly. I talked about this a lot with your pump site or your insulin doing what you expect of it. And so is that how you Natalie saw right away that he shouldn't be loading the pump with so much insulin?

Natalie 41:13
Yeah, I was getting frustrated, because every three and a half days, suddenly he'd have a stuck on high. And we'd be walking, we'd be dosing so much insulin, and I was like, why does this suddenly doing this? What have we changed? and Stephen said he'd been filling his he'd been filling his reservoir more.

Scott Benner 41:33
Steven, what are you doing? You can't just go all like half cocked and do stuff by yourself. Obviously, Natalie needs to be brought into the decision making process. I mean, she's pretty much the brains of the operation. I'm, I'm getting that. Do you agree, Natalie? Are you in charge?

Natalie 41:50
There's a reason why I don't just grab his phone and do stuff. I feel like he should still be the one to always make the decisions because I don't have the background with diabetes. So there were certain things that I didn't know, like, I couldn't tell you how many units he would dose for anything. All I knew was carbs. And so I'm starting to get a feel for that I have two numbers that I use, and that's about it. But it's, I felt like there was more to it that I just hadn't. I didn't know because I wasn't touching the device. And I didn't want to, I guess infringe on his domain. for that. I wanted to give him respect.

Scott Benner 42:28
Yeah, of course. I mean, it is there it is diabetes, right. Like it's a there's got to be a line somewhere. Is there a line somewhere? Stephen, where you'd be like, hey, that's too much, or you just really comfortable with this setup?

Stephen 42:42
I'd have a lot of trust that I don't think it'll go too far. Yeah. I mean, sometimes if I'm not doing something, or if I'm busy, and really focused on something, then I'll just hand out my phone and say do it for me. But most of the time, it's it's a pretty good given take,

Scott Benner 42:59
Stephen. Tell me again, how old you were when you were diagnosed? Please.

Stephen 43:04
Gosh, that would be 20. I was 21. I think so you've never had,

Scott Benner 43:09
like a parent help you with this ever?

Stephen 43:13
No. It was, um, my mom took me to the endocrinologist office. Because I was home. I didn't have a car. But it was pretty much on my own. The endocrinologist knew I was technically minded. And so she was really she wanted me to get on the pump. But the insurance wouldn't let me get one for six months. Because they're stupid. Yeah, but my mom and dad haven't really, like done any insulin dosing or, or set changes or anything like that, like you have with. With Arden. What about

Scott Benner 43:51
when you were younger? Just in general, your parents very hands on with things like did you have a lot of parental involvement in your life that you were comfortable and happy to have?

Stephen 44:01
I would say that my parents are different in that a different enough in that my mom was the concerned parent and always wanted to help or do something for the kids when my dad was more like, let him fall. Let him bump their head, bounce back and be better for it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 44:20
You guys would understand. I imagine if we pulled 100 people, we don't have the obvious ability to do that. But if we pulled 100 people who had diabetes adults, I imagine some of them would think that this is incredibly not okay. And some people would think it's amazing. I would just think it's their experience one or the other. But I've seen people have that like, this is my diabetes. Don't tell me what to do. You know, I don't want help with it. I can see those people being like, oh, wow, it's it's strange that somebody is helping him and then I can see the exact opposite. You know, at the same time, people have struggled or just did General know that what a burden it is, and it can help I kind of don't see it. I see it the the ladder, I don't understand why it would be a problem. I mean, you, obviously, Steven, you can take care of yourself. And Natalie seems like she comes in and helps you when you know when you do the wrong thing, and you're pissing her off. And I think there's a real like, kind of genuine beauty to it. Do you imagine you'll do it like this forever?

Stephen 45:33
I imagine that at some point, the algorithm will take over. And neither of us will have to put nearly as much effort into it as we do now. But until that point, I don't see a problem of continuing as we are

Scott Benner 45:47
not least there wasn't an algorithm if it was just a pump, and it was on Stephen to count carbs. Do you think you'd be as involved?

Natalie 45:54
What? Well, when we switched from 670 G to prepping the Android APS algorithm, you had to go completely off auto mode, any kind of help any other than that, all right. And I think I was more involved in because I was scared. That was my first time. There was nothing that was going to help at night. I woke up every other hour. I think I didn't bother Steven. But I was just worried. I think it would have calmed down eventually, when I figured out how things worked. But I think my concern for the fact that there were no safety guards would make me more involved.

Scott Benner 46:33
Yeah. And have you ever I'm sorry to ask Have you ever lost like a close loved one? Or do you live with anxiety or anything like that? Or is this just the common sense concern because of the nature of the situation?

Natalie 46:45
I think it's a common sense concern. I mean, he can go into the 40s. And as long as I can see what's going on, and as long as we have some juice on hand, I'm fine. I've seen him go as low as the low 30s. And then I was really worried because that was one of the first times I'd seen him low. But now that it's happened a couple times, none 30s, of course, but now that he's gone low a few times, I've I'm just comfortable. But that doesn't take away my sense of responsibility, which is a very strong trait of mine.

Scott Benner 47:18
Yeah, no kidding.

Stephen 47:20
Do you still be quite concerned when I go into the 40s?

Natalie 47:24
Only if you're not coming up, especially if we're trying to go to sleep?

Unknown Speaker 47:28
Oh, yeah.

Stephen 47:29
That'd be the worst.

Scott Benner 47:30
Stephen, is it? Is it a common occurrence to get? Well, like that? We're lower?

Stephen 47:36
Um, no, we're tweaking a couple things on the algorithm to see if the Basal rates needed adjustment. So I have been, though, not in the 40s. But like close and maybe dipping in a little bit in the past, like couple days. But it hasn't been a common occurrence. Before this.

Scott Benner 47:58
I understand. Okay. Am I not asking you guys anything that I should be that I'm missing? Because I got really enamored with your situation. So I'm now forgetting Why the hell you came on. I like the whole time I'm talking. I'm like, I don't even care why they wanted to come on. This is fascinating. So I want to circle back around and make sure that I'm not, I'm gonna ask Natalie, because she seems like she she seems smarter than both of us, Steven, that way, is there anything we missed?

Natalie 48:28
Um, we originally I had sent you an email explaining how we handle carb counting when, or I guess dosing in general for food. When I don't cook the same thing all the time. Cool. I'm always switching it up. Though it's not too different. I think from the mentality that you have with a lot with just memorizing what you do eat, because you can just break it down more to ingredients. For the ones that you don't use very often, then you can just check the packaging or something. But what I do as I'm cooking, is, I start tallying up the total for the entire dish. So we were making pumpkin stuffed pasta the other day in a tomato sauce. So I looked at the jar for tomatoes and did the math that says how many servings are the container and how many carbs per serving. So just multiply those two together. And then I added the same thing for the pumpkin added the same thing for the pasta. And when we get done, when we start to eat, then whatever we pull out, you can see what portion of the dish that was. So like it was a six that time. Yeah, it's even put on his plate. So it's like okay, well, the total for the entire dish was I think it was like 437 carbs. So this one particular serving is this many carbs, but it's also high fat so that we're going to treat it like pizza. So over four hours, expect this amount of carbs to enter your system.

Scott Benner 49:58
I can tell you that when I'm putting Making this certain pasta for Arden, I have to put it in a certain bowl. And then I know how much insulin she needs for it. If you put it in a flatter bowl where it kind of like settles more, I look at it and I don't know what to do it because I don't even pay attention to the scooping. I just I know when it's in this bowl, and it kind of looks like this. This is 45 carbs. I don't know how I got to that point. Exactly. But it's a it's a really valuable it and to be able to be the person who's making the concoction and knows everything that's in it. I imagine you get pretty close on the carbs.

Natalie 50:41
Yeah, one big one carb awful change seven by five points. So we try to get it pretty exact. And I think we get it within within five grams a lot of time.

Scott Benner 50:52
Wow. He's that he's really sensitive to the insulin. I'm going to talk about you like you're not here now. Stephen. Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker 51:00
Thank you.

Natalie 51:02
Yeah, especially when we have regularly been exercising, that makes a huge difference. Yeah, on how he responds to food and insulin. And if we just miss exercising, like we tried to do it every other day. And if we just missed for a week, then all of a sudden his Basal rate drops. food makes him spike even harder. But yeah, for the most part, carbs especially we keep a we give him sugar by the half teaspoon, to get him bring him up when he's low.

Scott Benner 51:39
I am imagining then that he just basically has ratios that are their exercise, they ratios and non exercise they ratios. We're working on that.

Natalie 51:50
We may we're testing out a feature of Android APS, where you can just change the percent of the profile that you're using. So he's on his regular profile right now at 95%. So it's lowered the insulin needs by 5%. For everything across the board.

Scott Benner 52:06
It is interesting how different people think about it. Like I just, I just lie about the carbs to myself, basically. Do you know what I mean? Like I'll I'll say okay, this is this, this meals nine units, because it's probably about so many carbs. So I'll just pretend it's 20 less carbs. And then I'll do that. I, but you want it to be like a setting. And I don't think either is right or wrong. I just think it's interesting how people's like different people's brains want things to be and how it makes it easier for them. I just want to leave a note for myself right here. For my editing that I think I want to call this episode. Everybody needs a Natalie. So anyway, let's just strong strong contender right now Steven, just in case you're wondering, your name doesn't even get to go into it. So Natalie, are you? If you don't mind getting off the diabetes for half a second? Do you ever worry that you care too much about other people? Because I do sometimes about myself. That's why I'm asking you.

Natalie 53:12
I do for the reason that you sighted of people not wanting to help. So I think I get a good

Scott Benner 53:19
deal. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off, please.

Natalie 53:22
I think I get apologetic. But I still can't stop trying to help. Which is probably a problem. Because then I'm apologizing and still doing it at the same time.

Scott Benner 53:34
Stephens like Yo man, shut up.

Stephen 53:39
What do you do? definitely have a strong sense of responsibility on her side in her. Yeah. does it translate to be like, no, don't worry, it's not your problem. Whatever this thing is,

Scott Benner 53:51
Stephen does that does that feeling of responsibility? does it translate beyond you?

Stephen 53:57
I would say it's embedded in everything that Natalie does.

Scott Benner 54:02
Natalie wants you to go to see a therapist and report back to me and find out why this is I don't care if you're like this. And by the way, I just won't understand it better. It's a you can't point to anything in your life. And like how young Do you remember feeling like this?

Natalie 54:19
And Girl Scouts in early elementary school. I know. Somebody had to do something that was not pleasant. I don't remember what it was. But the first thing that popped into my head was if I do this, none of my friends have to do this.

Scott Benner 54:36
Hmm. take you on fear factor. That lead that cockroach. I went to $50,000 eat the cockroach.

Natalie 54:45
I've gotten out of doing that before I was supposed to eat a rhinoceros beetle.

Scott Benner 54:48
Whoa, slow down. Where did that happen?

Natalie 54:52
A college group we were playing a game where it What if your name was drawn you had to do something and they drew all the ahead of time, and somebody came up to me and said, Natalie, you're allergic to shellfish, right? I can't eat fish shellfish, you're fine. But I didn't want to. We weren't having either at the time. So I was like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, I'm allergic. So she went away. And I found out that got me out of eating a rhinoceros beetle. Because if you have shellfish allergies, you can't eat bugs.

Scott Benner 55:19
What kind of reasonable college lunatics? Were you around that they were double checking on people's allergies before eating beetles? That's those two things are in Congress. You understand that? Right? Seriously? Like we're gonna do something crazy, but first, let's double check and make sure it's gonna be safe. No one does that. You guys live in a different you're lying to me about where you live. You're in a magical land floating 20 feet off the ground somewhere where none of us get to go. That's so Oh, God. So no beetle eating for you. Stevens you ever eat anything weird?

Stephen 56:02
Not that I can recall specifically. There's probably been some concoction of condiments or something that college that people shoved together and said, Hey, drink this.

Scott Benner 56:13
You know, in the back of my mind, I was hoping you said I ate some Japanese food once when I was like Steven, pull this together. Do it for me. Come on.

Stephen 56:24
Yeah, that that does bring to mind. We have eaten some pretty weird Japanese food.

Scott Benner 56:29
If you want to try this again. Steven, do you ever eat anything weird?

Stephen 56:33
Yeah, there's a Japanese dish called Shikoku. are sure sure? Oh.

Unknown Speaker 56:39
Yes. Oh, cool.

Unknown Speaker 56:40
Yeah.

Scott Benner 56:42
Jesus. Natalie, where did that come from? Do you speak Japanese too?

Natalie 56:47
Definitely, not only a little bit my a few of my good friends live in Japan.

Scott Benner 56:54
And we only scratched the surface about you to what is going What else do you do? Are you like international spies? Anything? Like? Wow, if you are you wouldn't be able to tell me. I think Stephen is that like, do you have any favorite cooking shows? Because I love chef show on Netflix.

Natalie 57:13
We don't have cable but I used to watch good eats a lot because I loved the food science.

Unknown Speaker 57:18
Why don't you have cable?

Stephen 57:22
Too expensive. Not enough to watch.

Scott Benner 57:27
You guys come back on every week until I feel satisfied that I understand everything about you, please. You don't have Netflix. We do. We do. Okay, I told you. This is on Netflix now. Ah, your listening skills are deteriorating. I found a chink in your armor. Okay.

Stephen 57:43
No, no, no. Too much laughing.

Scott Benner 57:44
Is she apologizing? Right? Are you Do you mean that where you apologize? Don't apologize to me, please. If you're feeling that way? No, seriously, it's john fabbro. The like the movie director. And oh, god, I can't think of a chef that does this show with him. But I just enjoy. I enjoyed the chef's show. So there you go. Try it. See what you think. You probably like, I'll get a note in the mail. You're an idiot. You don't understand cooking. Your hand delivered. Like it'll be handwritten. And it'll come with a stamp and everything. And then that'll make me wonder like, why didn't Natalie mail that not email it?

Unknown Speaker 58:19
How did she get my address?

Scott Benner 58:21
Yeah. How well did you hear what happened? Do you follow me on the media so that our social.

Natalie 58:27
I am very bad at the social type medias.

Scott Benner 58:29
Me too. But someone sent me a gift to my house. And it was food. And it was amazing. Like they were like, I guess people would just call them cake pops. But it was like this chocolate stuff dipped in this vanilla. Chocolate. They were so good. And they got to the house. And I'm like, how that what are like How the hell did this end up at my house? Like who? Like so somebody figured out my address and sent me food. And I was like, Well, I'm obviously not going to eat this because a stranger sent me food that I opened it up and I was like, Huh, I was like Kelly try one of these. Like, 20 minutes later, she seemed Okay, so we ate them. They were really delicious. And then we found the person who sent them, who was really very kind and was just trying to say thank you for the podcast and I said to her, just send money next time. You really don't need to do this. And for everybody else, please don't try to figure out my address because you're creeped me out and I'll stop doing this podcast. Now somebody's gonna be like, that's how I get them to stop. But anyway, um I don't remember the point of what I was saying. No, I feel like Natalie's disappointed in me.

Natalie 59:48
We're talking about cooking shows. Ah, I don't remember. Or judgmental letter being sent directly to your house.

Scott Benner 59:55
See, I thought of mail and then I thought a food being sent to me and I'm a guest This is what ADHD looks like. I don't know. Very cool. What else about about meals Natalie's important to you, as far as you can tell about understanding how to like really decide about how many carbs are in things.

Natalie 1:00:14
Um, chunky things are a pain. So I'm talking pre mixed salads, we usually I've started just mixing individual bowls at a time, if any of the carb stuff goes into Stevens bowl only not into the entire salad and then divided into Stephens plate. Just it's too difficult all the curvy stuff goes to the bottom, and then he'll go low until the last meal, and then he'll go high. So those are frustrating soups I have. soups are also difficult if they're chunky, I really have no tips for that we just figure it out. But for things that are oddly shaped, were actually looking at the portion of the plate might be odd or something like spirally, pastas and stuff, they link together in certain ways where it's never going to be even then I actually just weigh the entire dish portion. Steven takes what he wants. And then we weigh the entire dish again and said, Oh, you had this proportion of it. Okay, that we do use the scale quite a lot actually.

Scott Benner 1:01:20
Have it was interesting that you just said like the carbee stuff falls to the bottom of the salad, meaning he eats it less even. Can you not just take your fork and like pasta salad every once in a while while you're eating it? Oh, I mean, the serving bowl. Oh, in the bowl, like it falls to the bottom you're saying? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So he gets to it later. And then the insulin hits him too hard. And he hasn't had any of the carbs.

Natalie 1:01:42
No. So we'll, I'll make more dishes at once. Like, let's say I'll make two meals worth of food for the two of us. So I would say I tossed the entire salad in a big bowl, the mixing bowl, okay, and then we get our food from that. But Tomorrow's Meal is what has all the carbs because that fell to the bottom. Okay, does that make more sense? Guys? I

Scott Benner 1:02:05
did. I wasn't falling. But I do now that makes total sense. Natalie, can I make a suggestion and this is not a learned suggestion meeting. I'm not a smoker, but I would love to see you get a little high and then try to guess carbs for a meal? Because I feel like you're alright. Are we a type A personality? Natalie?

Natalie 1:02:25
Um, that means everything has to be exact. Right? Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:02:28
Yeah. Something like that. Like, are you shooting for perfection a lot outside of diabetes as well as inside? Yeah, yeah. I want you to try to guess a couple meals. Would it kill you?

Natalie 1:02:39
I have, whenever we go out to eat or something like that? I do. That

Scott Benner 1:02:43
doesn't work.

Natalie 1:02:44
Um, I can get close. There are some where it's a complete guess. So we tend to guess low if we're far from supplemental carbs, or guess high if we have x?

Scott Benner 1:03:00
Yeah, that makes sense. And it works out mainly.

Natalie 1:03:03
Yeah. We really only measure when we're at home because it's there. So why not? Like we had some maple kettle corn last night. And well, we have to pour it into the boy anyway, if we're going to be sitting on opposite ends of the room. So let's just put Stephens bowl on the scale. He pours what he wants, okay, we have the grams. It's this many carbs.

Scott Benner 1:03:29
Why do you sit on the opposite ends of the room?

Natalie 1:03:32
We were playing some we were playing Dungeons and Dragons online. You probably

Unknown Speaker 1:03:38
should have left that out probably the podcast, I'm thinking.

Stephen 1:03:43
There's a good set of friends that we play with.

Scott Benner 1:03:45
So you were online gaming. So you weren't near each other literally. So there wouldn't be interference with microphones?

Natalie 1:03:52
Yeah, although that, so we'll often sit on the opposite sides of the room. I should say last night, we did not we were at the same table. But then we just use Stephens mic, because it's not as exact.

Scott Benner 1:04:04
Okay, so people can shut the podcast off right now if they want to, but I'm gonna keep asking questions. I've never played Dungeons and Dragons. I have a loose understanding of how it's played, like in person in a board situation. But how does it get played online?

Natalie 1:04:24
There's software that mimics the board. So you have a grid and little tokens that they're just drawing so they put on there, it's actually easier than on the table because then all the math is done for you.

Scott Benner 1:04:36
Okay. Steven, are you aware or worried that Natalie could probably cheat on you and you'd have to let it go because of your diabetes care? you'd just be like, Ah, that was horrible. But she is really good at figuring out my carbs. So like, do you see Do you see what I'm saying? Like she could probably like that. She probably had has more leeway than you do, don't you think? Like relationshipy? She brings a lot of tables when I'm saying,

Stephen 1:05:07
yes, you decision does. I think that I think that we're close enough that I don't have to worry about that. So yeah. But if something like that were to happen, then there would be some definite counseling and reconciliation needed to happen.

Scott Benner 1:05:25
No kidding. Seems to be in an office like, Listen, I am very willing to let this go. Natalie, I'm trying to empower you here. I think you could probably take a couple $100 out of the bank account. Nobody would say a word you know, I'm saying. Call it payment for understanding how many carbs are in food. You guys are so nice. You're freaking me out. I'm not certain if it says something about you. I think it's just something about me. I can't like I am having a hard time accepting that. How kind you seem. What do you think, Natalie? What do you think that means?

Unknown Speaker 1:06:02
Hmm.

Natalie 1:06:06
I think Stephen and I are in unusual match. Like I said, I keep questioning how this worked out so well. So I don't think you're crazy.

Scott Benner 1:06:17
I'm definitely seeing something right.

Natalie 1:06:21
Yeah, but why can't boys telling us to get together for this reason?

Scott Benner 1:06:25
Why can't I accept that? Not only, like, What's wrong with me?

Stephen 1:06:30
I don't know. you've interviewed nice people before. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:06:33
I don't understand them either.

Stephen 1:06:37
I guess that doesn't No,

Scott Benner 1:06:38
no, no, there's no, listen. I'm I think I'm a nice person. Do you agree with that from listening? Yes. Yeah. But there's, I don't know what it is like there's, it's not maybe your actions as much as it is? tone? Or, like, Am I just reading nice is not sarcastic. I can't decide. My, my head hurts from this. Like, I really, I don't know what's wrong. I feel like there's something incredibly wrong with me. I feel like I'm also inviting 1000 emails of you people telling me what you think is wrong with me? Would you trust me? Just send cakepops if you're gonna do that, okay. But But, but no, I mean, it's I don't know if it's some cultural if its geographic. I can't I can't decide what it is. But I don't know to people like you. Like, like, I seriously don't, I know really kind people. But you know, 20 seconds doesn't go by without them saying something beard sarcastic, you know, to me.

Stephen 1:07:44
A fun side story related to that. I'm actually born and raised in Baltimore, Maryland. And my sister went to college in Jackson, Mississippi, and on orientation day or something. When she was getting into her dorm, she met another new student, and said, Hi, how's it going? Or whatever she said, and at some point in the conversation that came up, were, you know, where are you from? And they said, You're, you're from Maryland, but you're from the north, and you're nice. So it's probably just a family thing that we've got going on.

Scott Benner 1:08:23
No kidding. I don't imagine there's just like a magical line that when you get beyond it, you change. Right. Although maybe the race I think that's right.

Stephen 1:08:33
You get into the more changes. dense, dense population you're saying? Yeah, like all the all the big cities seem to have less? Less allowance for others, I think. How do

Scott Benner 1:08:47
you think you'd fare in that situation? Natalie be dead in a week because she tried

Unknown Speaker 1:08:53
Yeah, I don't think I would like it too much. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:56
Natalie, you would just you would, you'd short circuit.

Natalie 1:08:59
I feel really bad. Every time I'm in the north. I tried to smile and wave at people and open doors and stuff. And they don't seem to enjoy it.

Scott Benner 1:09:05
Now. They need you to get the hell out of their way. They're going somewhere. I'm a I'm a I say hello to people when I make eye contact with them a lot. And it it sometimes it you're shocked by how shocked they are, you know, but I'm comfortable here. I like the pace. And as a matter of fact, like if I've ever gone on a vacation, like a quiet, calm place where everybody's just super kind. It makes me feel odd for days. It takes me a long time to get accustomed to it. Like I don't understand why people aren't in a hurry. Like what like you don't I mean, like, after somebody says thank you or like the third time like Oh, I get it. You're nice. Let it go. Do you think what would happen? Let me paint a picture for you. Your children come out. They're super athletic, and not nice.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:02
Don't want to play Dungeons and Dragons. And they they're like, Ah, she's always trying to help me. What will you do?

Natalie 1:10:11
Let them scrape their knees and stuff.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:12
Yeah, I don't know. I

Natalie 1:10:13
think I'd I imagined that I'm not going to be the worried parent. I might try to help a lot. But I think my mentality is kids want you to be engaged in what they want. But you should leave them alone. And let them be independent whenever they want to try like you didn't give them a warning, but I feel like they'd resent you if you interfere too much.

Scott Benner 1:10:39
She's Sally, you got that right to what the heck. Stephen, would you like win a lottery? Did you find a genie bottle? Let's right now I'm talking to Steven Natalie. You'd be quiet. Do you find like a bottle and there was a genie in it? What happened? Like what did you do? Did you did you save like an airplane full of people from dying? Like, why are you being paid back?

Unknown Speaker 1:11:03
I don't know. God, I think God was just kind to me.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:07
That's it.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:09
That's what you're going with. Just

Stephen 1:11:16
now, I've been really blessed especially.

Scott Benner 1:11:19
Okay, now I can't listen, man. I can't argue with you. I think that your scenario is is is lovely. And it's I'm assuming there are a lot of people with diabetes right now listening. The adults are thinking I wish somebody would help me with all this or even just be interested enough to want to understand it. And to put the effort in. You know, and that's really all you're doing that like this isn't overwhelming your life I imagine.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:45
No, no.

Scott Benner 1:11:47
Steven it but it is making your life easier.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:51
For sure. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:11:52
What do you do to make Natalie's life easier? Here? I'm going to get you guys know a fight. I bet you don't do anything. You're a guy. Good Natalie. He's not trying hard enough, right?

Natalie 1:12:00
Oh, he does so much. Not.

Scott Benner 1:12:03
Okay. What's he do?

Natalie 1:12:06
Um, whatever. I'm not feeling well, which is a regular cycle. I'm sure you understand.

Scott Benner 1:12:11
I get the pun.

Natalie 1:12:13
cure of everything. one weekend, we were supposed to make sausage from scratch, like grind the meetup stuff in and add the spices stuff in the case. Of course

Unknown Speaker 1:12:21
you are keep going. And it

Natalie 1:12:23
kicked in right before the hard part. And I couldn't do anything. I just I had to go lay down on the couch and Steven took care of the whole hour long process of stuffing the sausage twisting it off. For me. He didn't complain he was still willing to make stuff later. Same with him going to the store for me. I could go on about students. Go ahead.

Stephen 1:12:49
Like getting medicine and stuff. I'm like, No, you're my wife. I'm taking care of you. Be quiet.

Scott Benner 1:12:54
I'm having trouble holding back what Arden calls that when her when her period comes because I feel like it's inappropriate. And you'll judge much. But I'm just gonna say it. I feel like what's wrong and should be like my hooch exploded?

Natalie 1:13:15
For me, it hurts about that bad.

Scott Benner 1:13:17
Yeah, it feels like that. And and he just jumps right in. Yeah.

Natalie 1:13:25
Super fast to handle anything for me. If I try to get up and do something, he'll come back over and gently push on my shoulder. That's it's kind of a joke. It's not like he's controlling me or anything like that. That's how he indicates now you

Scott Benner 1:13:41
do anything? Yeah, I'll take care of it. Jesus, I've even thrown in a couple of inappropriate sexual references here and neither of you've picked up on them.

Natalie 1:13:50
I picked up on it. But I'm so bad at responding to those.

Scott Benner 1:13:53
Yeah. I was really hard for me not to say anything when you said he finished stuffing the sausage and twisting them off. I couldn't say I literally we'd be in a completely different direction right now if I just allowed myself to go there. And nobody be listen. You know what I think nobody be listening. But I think people we like Finally, Scott's gonna get dirty on this podcast. But I got kids listening, so I'm stuck. I'm already feeling bad about saying it. But you know me little kids. Listen to the show. Yeah, killing me. I would love to curse more. But I think I'd lose a pretty large segment of my. So here I am. I know I'd lose the Mormons. which as you know, if you listen is a huge part of my listening audience. For some reason I'm huge in Utah. Do you know this?

Natalie 1:14:37
Actually, I didn't. We must have missed this. The podcasts that indicated that. Well,

Scott Benner 1:14:41
you get back and keep listening. I would prefer if you binge, please don't jump around.

Stephen 1:14:47
I think we're back in August at the moment.

Scott Benner 1:14:50
This year, it is really cool that you guys listen together. It seriously is because I know there are a lot of people who struggle with this. You know, I'm trying to get my spouse to listen. I'm trying To get them on board with what I'm doing, they won't listen. I did somebody told me the other day after explaining to me over and over again, how much time and worry and stress and anxiety is coming from diabetes management, I said, well, just listen to these, like 20 episodes, I think you'll really be, you know, find a benefit from them. And the person answering back and said, I don't have time for that. And I was like, I feel like you don't not have time for it. Like, how could you? How could you tell me how much time you're giving away all the time to these confusions? And and I'm telling you, it's very possible that the answers here, and I don't know it didn't make sense to me. You don't I mean?

Natalie 1:15:44
Yeah, we listen, because we listen to so many podcasts we listen on, Stephen, what time speed is it to?

Stephen 1:15:52
Well, it depends on the podcast, but most of them are double speed.

Scott Benner 1:15:55
How do I sound double speed?

Natalie 1:15:59
pretty normal. Like you sound like you talk fast. Whereas right now, which is one of the maybe three times I've heard you at one time speed. You sound not unreasonably slower, but it's I would consider it slow speech.

Scott Benner 1:16:14
Wow, that's interesting, because I speak really quickly compared to most people. But you guys have sped up so much. You're like teaching yourself to hear it differently.

Natalie 1:16:24
Yeah, it scared me when I first heard Stephen listening on two times speed to anything like what is going on?

Scott Benner 1:16:31
Alright, listen, I'm gonna ask this then we're gonna go. Okay. What's the distinction here? How do I categorize you guys? Are you dorks geeks? nerds? Where would you put yourself in? None of those things. I don't mean anything derogatory. I'm just trying to figure like your coding, and, and making sausages and and you're so nice. Like, how do you think of yourself? there? That's my question. Forget everything I just said, Natalie. If I asked you to describe yourself, describe yourself and then Steven, you describe yourself

Unknown Speaker 1:17:06
an awkward nerd.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:07
Okay, Steven.

Stephen 1:17:10
I think we've had this discussion before Natalie and I the difference between nerd and geek I would consider myself a geek, probably.

Scott Benner 1:17:19
Okay. Now, Steven, how do you how would you describe Natalie? She cracked awkward nerd.

Stephen 1:17:29
I would say I wouldn't use any of those words. I just say smart. Okay. But slightly awkward. Possibly.

Scott Benner 1:17:38
I thought he was gonna say beautiful butterfly. Not like But okay, Natalie. Now you described? Yes,

Stephen 1:17:42
there's that too. That's just assumed.

Scott Benner 1:17:44
I'm trying to help. Obviously, that right, those words are gone. And we just know that not only is he right about him himself. How do you see him?

Natalie 1:17:54
Let's see. You just said beak. Steven. That was it.

Stephen 1:17:59
You can add as much as you want. Don't worry.

Natalie 1:18:04
He is about right. But yeah, I guess it would The only thing I might add would be maybe passionate,

Scott Benner 1:18:18
passionate geek. Now what's a geek and what's a nerd?

Natalie 1:18:24
The only thing I have is that dictionary quote that I don't know where it came from where a geek is a person who goes as far as to bite off chicken heads for an audience's amusement. But

Scott Benner 1:18:35
I think we know why you're a nerd badly. I think you just made that completely clear. All right, I'm gonna look and see if there's like a real definite, I know the definition of like, I know what you're saying.

Natalie 1:18:48
I thought yeah, I always thought of nerd as more maybe scientifically data minded or something like that. versus a geek, which is which can get it more into maybe media fat, like books and series and stuff like that. Like Steven loves sci fi. On sci fi.

Scott Benner 1:19:14
So, alright, so dictionary you know.com has geek as an unfashionable or socially inept person. does that fit you Steven?

Stephen 1:19:26
I definitely don't pay attention to fashion. Yeah. And I have been not the best adapted social situations. But that's, that's been a thing. I've gotten better at.

Scott Benner 1:19:37
Okay. a verb geek engage in or discuss computer related tasks. Is that so kind of geek out i guess is where that is. And now it says nerd is a foolish or contemptible person who lacks social skills boringly studious.

Natalie 1:19:54
I mean, we've picked only derogatory terms.

Scott Benner 1:19:57
I don't even know what listen Thank you. If you didn't ask me to describe myself because I wouldn't, I'd have not the first idea of what to say. But but these are, but you don't, you're using these things in more colloquial ways. You're not thinking of them as like really definable ways. Right? So so to you nerd is a little more technical and geek is a little more whimsical.

Natalie 1:20:21
That was my opinion.

Scott Benner 1:20:22
Yeah, that's what I thought. So

Stephen 1:20:24
yeah, the definition. There is socially awkward and unintelligent, but single minded person obsessed with a non social, non social hobby or pursuit. And geek is a digital technology expert or enthusiast, and a person who has existed leucism before and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity. That's pretty, I would definitely say that she's the nerd. And I'm the geek with those definitions. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:20:49
And so your Stephanie became a nerd about the diabetes. Are you diabetes, Natalie, Stephanie, Natalie, excuse me, I'm sorry. You know, what happens to sometimes I look up, I see both of your names at the same time, and I must, I must really have, like an issue that I'm not aware of. Because I sometimes I am literally blending your names when I don't mean to.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:13
hope that makes sense.

Scott Benner 1:21:14
Yeah. Natalie, do you? Do you feel like that, like a diabetes nerd?

Natalie 1:21:18
Um, diabetes nerd cooking nerd? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:21
Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:21:22
No kidding. Do you get really into stuff when you start it?

Natalie 1:21:26
Yes. Very?

Scott Benner 1:21:29
Do you let it go then? Or do you just like add it to an arsenal of things that you're really into?

Unknown Speaker 1:21:35
Um,

Natalie 1:21:36
I think I go into it now with the mentality of I am going to let this go after a while, because it's just not sustainable. with diabetes, though. While we were dating, we were dating fairly intentionally we were looking for are we going to get married? Or are we not? And if we're not, we should just break this off now. So that was the mentality for dating. And it seemed It was 30. I didn't want to keep them dating me for too long if it wasn't gonna work out. But yeah, with diabetes, it was different. Because if we were going to get married, this was not a short term thing. So I didn't go into that with the mentality of discarding it. And worst case, I know more about diabetes, if I ever run into somebody else with it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:22:22
All right. You guys are delightful. I really appreciate you doing this. I feel like I could go on forever asking you questions about things that I don't understand about the world and they feel like you have answers about, but I think I've held you long enough. So in fairness to you, I'm going to say thank you ask you if you have any closing thoughts and and let you go back to your life. Oh,

Natalie 1:22:47
thank you for having us on. Um, closing thought is we have to get some breakfast because Stephen was rising and dosed for a bit of it a little while ago since we went over.

Scott Benner 1:22:57
I'm sorry, Stephen. Better than that walk. You guys went on that time. What is for breakfast Natalie real quick.

Natalie 1:23:06
Um, I made some milk bread. I have a sourdough starter that I maintain. So homemade bread. And then we have blackberry jam that I made apple butter that I also made. And I'd probably have a little bit of scrambled eggs with some herb sauce.

Scott Benner 1:23:23
I just wanted to say if some sourdough bread show up at my house, I would not be upset about that. Seriously, Steven, what about you? Is there anything you want to close with?

Stephen 1:23:34
I'm just as long as you pay attention to a diabetes isn't, doesn't have to rule your life. And if you find a helper then it's 10 times easier.

Scott Benner 1:23:47
If that's a good message. You guys are really terrific. I hope you have a whole bunch of little like dorky babies that you can really get along with. And that one of them doesn't just be like turn into a football player because I can see the both of you just in the stands going like Oh crap, how did this happen?

Stephen 1:24:05
It could happen My brother is a foot and a half taller than me and like 100 pounds heavier. See,

Scott Benner 1:24:09
see and you'll just be in the stands going like, ah, I tried so hard. He doesn't care about anything we care about. It's just and I don't know. I just don't I hope it's gonna happen. But I don't wish it so seriously. You guys were terrific. I really appreciate you doing this. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yep, have a great day. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors. g Vogue glucagon. Find out more about chivo Kibo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juice box, you spell that? g VOKEGL. You see ag o n.com forward slash juicebox. And also like to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter and remind you that there's a ton of great stuff to learn at Contour Next one.com forward slash juicebox. There are links in the show notes and links at Juicebox Podcast comm to these and all the sponsors of the show.

If you enjoy the Juicebox Podcast, please share it with someone. That's all I need you to do. I mean, unless you're like super motivated, you want to leave like a five star review where you listen, then, I mean, then you're like you're really cool that if you do that, alright, I ran out of steam here. I'll see you later.

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#474 Sitting in a Tree

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