#811 Ben Analyzes Scott

Ben has type 1 diabetes and is a Licensed Professional Counselor.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 811 of the Juicebox Podcast.

On today's show, I'll be speaking with Ben Shabbat, Ben's been a type one diabetic for a very long time. And he's also a licensed professional counselor. So you know how this goes. It turns into me being a therapist by by then. But we talked about stuff that's interesting to you along the way. You get the podcast by now, right? While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan or becoming bold with insulin. If you are a type one like Ben, or you're the caregiver of a type one, like me, go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. Join the registry and take the survey. The survey will take you fewer than 10 minutes. It is completely HIPAA compliant. It is absolutely anonymous and it helps move diabetes research forward. It does it seriously does. And you'll You're the reason your survey answers move research forward. And you never have to leave your house you can do a great thing right from wherever you're sitting right now. T one D exchange.org forward slash juicebox.

Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by ag one from athletic greens. I take ag one every day and you could as well athletic greens.com forward slash juice box you looking for a green drink that has good stuff in it and tastes good too. Well then ag one is what you're looking for. The podcast is also sponsored today. The podcast is also sponsored today by my favorite type one diabetes organization touched by type one head over now and find them on Facebook and Instagram and at touched by type one.org. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo pen. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox.

Ben Shabad 2:19
My name is Ben Shabad and I'm a mental health therapist I work with children and adolescents and adults from all walks of life, not just those with diabetes. But several of my clients do have diabetes, both type one and type two. But I personally am especially familiar with type one diabetes, because I've had it pretty much my whole life. I was diagnosed at a young age. And so having grown up with type one diabetes, I understand firsthand how stressful and challenging and demanding it is to manage. So as a therapist, I'm able to kind of combine my knowledge of diabetes and my training and psychotherapy to help clients overcome challenges and gain insight gain perspective and to help them realize their goals so that they can live a more fulfilling and meaningful life.

Scott Benner 3:08
How old were you been when you were diagnosed?

Ben Shabad 3:11
So I was diagnosed at a really young age. When I was I think two or three. That's funny.

Scott Benner 3:16
Isn't it funny? You kind of almost don't know, it's been so long, right?

Ben Shabad 3:21
It's been so long and it's not, you know, all that time. It's kind of blended together. And so I don't remember so well the actual time of diagnosis because I was so young.

Scott Benner 3:32
Do you guys do and you're so let me ask a question your parents together? My parents are not together? No, but they were at that time they were at that time you grew up with two parents is I guess my question. Yeah. Did you not talk about diabetes very much.

Ben Shabad 3:47
Oh, no, we talked about it all the time. It's I mean, as you know, your your daughter's got it and she was diagnosed young too. Right. Two years old. Yeah, yeah. So right, right around the same time as me. You can't really not talk about it. It's such a it's so intricately intertwined in every aspect of your life that Yeah, we talked about diabetes all the time and a lot of it was you know how to manage it. And then obviously as I got older understanding what what diabetes how you know, what what potentially causes it and you know, what all the implications are and then as I got older I started getting more interested in the mental health aspect of it and and how to handle that and through that how to help other people with that. And so yeah, it was a constant topic of conversation to answer your question interesting as I'm sure it is in your house

Scott Benner 4:41
there are times I so we try to I mean, we try to tackle it when it needs to be tackled and ignore it when it's not you know, it's not looking for attention it's almost like a almost like a tantrum when your toddler at some points, right. Like you're like oh, it's not gonna stop will help it And then other times, just you sort of don't want to be bothered. I just made it sound like I don't want to be bothered with toddler. So I use the bed analogy. But, um, but I was just trying to get out like, because, you know, because you said like two or three in there. Like I just didn't know if maybe it was one of those things. There are a lot of families that just don't talk about it, you know. And so that was my, that was my, my initial Yeah,

Ben Shabad 5:21
no, that's a really good point. I think. I think two things, one, type one diabetes runs in my family. So there was a lot of information to talk about, and and to relate it to. And so it wasn't like an unfamiliar conversation. Even from the start. I'm on my mom's side of the family. There's type one diabetes. And so. And on top of that, I think my family also just talks about a lot of things in general.

Scott Benner 5:47
Yeah. Not particularly shocking when you had type on your mom was probably like, and here it is. Exactly,

Ben Shabad 5:54
exactly. There was no, not too much confusion as maybe there would be in families that don't have type one diabetes. So it was recognized pretty quickly. My mom was suspicious of it as soon as I was, you know, drinking a lot of water using the bathroom, you know, frequently throughout the day. Yeah, sure enough, type one diabetes.

Scott Benner 6:12
Do you have any other autoimmune issues? No, no, I don't do they run in your family? Celiac thyroid, like that?

Ben Shabad 6:21
Um, you know, I don't think they do. I don't think other auto you know, I guess eczema, you know, mild eczema, maybe, is, is autoimmune, but nothing too severe, like type one diabetes.

Scott Benner 6:33
Right. Okay. All right. Well, yeah, that's interesting. So, you're, you're actually an LPC? Is that right? That's a licensed professional counselor. Exactly. How do you how do you come to want to do that?

Ben Shabad 6:45
So I'm also a school psychologist. And so you know, growing up with diabetes, because it was such a frequent conversation in my house. And I've always been interested in psychology, and that kind of like what I mentioned in the beginning, I think that it was a good career path for me, because I was able to combine those two, those two aspects of my life, okay. But in general, you know, I work with all clients, not just those with type one diabetes, I've always been really interested in psychology and behavior and what causes people to act and behave the ways they do, and how to shape behavior. And so I, I've always been kind of fascinated by the field of psychology in general. And then, I think I became a school psychologist. So working with students of all ages, and right now I work mostly with high school students. But then, as an LPC, I'm able to also work with adults, which is, which is a really neat thing. And so I'm really passionate about the work. Like I said, I find it very interesting. I enjoy what I do. And so I think it, it helps me be a successful therapist.

Scott Benner 7:59
Yeah, you're breaking up a little bit, Ben, but I was gonna say that I, I love. I don't know, if I don't know how to describe what I find interesting about people, it's, it's almost the idea of like, you know, what is a conscious decision? And what is a direction that you move in that you are almost powerless to impact? Like, what's the difference between the things you know, are happening, that you can impact and things that just happened? And then I've spoken to, I mean, honestly, I'm coming up on 1000 People now, like, in these interviews, mostly people with type one, or people who, you know, love somebody with it. And it's just, it's fascinating to see how one person can be, you know, stricken with a set of circumstances, and they, so just gracefully handle it. And then another person can get the same set of circumstances, and it runs them over. And it's just like, I'm endlessly fascinated about like, Why does Why does one person you know, what is it about one person? Because it's not it's not a fault? Like, that's what I've I've mainly noticed is that people who do well, you know, quote, unquote, with their management, and people who don't do well, they don't normally have any different level of effort. Like some people just have better tools or better understanding, and some people don't, and they put in them, I actually find that people who struggle end up putting in more effort than people who don't struggle a lot of the times. But you know, what I mean, like, what is it about the way your brains wired or how you grew up or a combination of those things that lead you to? I don't know just like lead you to have different reactions to different situations.

Ben Shabad 9:47
Yeah, it's I mean, that's a fascinating question. I wish I had a you know, a sure answer for that turn off. You're talking about resiliency and whether that's kind of inborn or, or nurtured and And, or where the overlap is there, because you're right. So two people can experience the exact same situation and, and one of them seems to handle it, you know, very easily and is coping effectively and another person is, you know, can be traumatized about the same situation. So, you know, my guess would be there's a biological factor there. But I also feel like, a lot of it has to do with how that situation specifically and other situations, stress inducing situations have have played out in your life, you know, because every situation, you're going to have a lot of associations with that debt. And if stressful events are not handled adequately, whatever that means for you, and the way that you've experienced them, then I think those situations are going to cause a lot more stress. And, you know, how does like diabetes, for example, that doesn't just impact the person who, who has diabetes, the individual with the disease, that AMPA impacts everyone around them, and also every aspect of their life, every environment they find themselves in? And so, you know, part of it is going to be, how does? How do the people around me handle it? Right? How do my parents deal with it? How do my friends deal with it? How has this impacted me in school, and my reputation there and at work and etc, and my relationships, and so it really seeps into every aspect of a person's life. And all of those things combined, I think, impact how you how you handle it, whether you're handling it adequately, to cope effectively, or, or whether or not, it's causing a lot of stress and try to, you know, implement some new stress in your life.

Scott Benner 11:48
Yeah, I'm I again, I'm sorry, you break up right at the end, when you're talking? I don't know why that is. But hear me right now. Yeah, you're fine. And then all of a sudden, in longer sentences. It's, it's almost like we're asking too much of the internet. It's like, I'm tired. Are you on your? Are you on a phone? No, I'm

Unknown Speaker 12:07
on my computer on your computer? Is

Scott Benner 12:08
it Wi Fi? Or is it wired? It is Wi Fi? Yeah, that might be. But I was gonna say that. I've been thinking recently, a fair amount about the idea that if you just took a baby, a brand new baby, and set it down in my house, or you took that same baby, and walked across the street and set it down in a different house, that that baby would have a profoundly different life, depending on, on where it is almost, almost as if to say if a deer is born in the woods, and it's pointing north, it'll have a different existence that if it was born, and it was pointing south, yep. You know, just, I don't think people, I don't think that's something people think about. Generally, it's a big idea, right? And it makes it seem like you're not you, and you don't have agency over yourself. But I think to a large degree, we don't, and then we end up being who we are, every day. And then in that day, you need to make a decision. And you can only make it based on who you are and what you've seen before. And try to put yourself in positions that are of your making, instead of you know, instead of of the making of the fact that you were pointing south or north when you were born. And and and I think that once people understand that there are a mix of those things, it becomes much easier for them to, to live to get to get through, you know,

Ben Shabad 13:37
yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I absolutely am, I'm a believer in freewill and, you know, determining the course of your life, of course, and it's, again, it goes back to the nature nurture discussion that we were just having. Yeah, two kids, you probably find, find fascinating. Some of these twin studies, I don't know how much in psychology you've read. But they do a lot of studies with identical twins growing up in different environments. And it's fascinating, both how similar they remain to each other, despite having never met each other and growing up in different houses. But also the differences. And so I think that points to when you're talking about development and outcomes for people, you're, you're looking both at a biological component and an environmental component and a major overlap between those things, right? Because it's about how your biology reacts to the environment that you're in,

Scott Benner 14:29
is so much about how you're wired, but then after that, it's a lot about how your wiring responds to impulses that come from the outside.

Ben Shabad 14:36
Yes. It's like, you know, baking, it's like, you know, baking bread in the oven. You know, what, what contributes to the bread? Is it the ingredients or is it the heat of the oven, you know, and it's both. It's how the heat impacts the ingredients.

Scott Benner 14:49
Absolutely. Yeah. And so, so applying that to your work. I mean, even in a in a school setting, right? You don't see people until they've acknowledge that they're struggling, right?

Ben Shabad 15:02
So, definitely, in private practice, that's the case because people have to seek you out. So that so at a base level, they've identified that they want some help for themselves. Yes. In schools, it's not always like that, because sometimes a person can, whether it be a teacher, a parent, somebody, somebody else can refer a student to you. So the student doesn't necessarily, at the start recognize that there was an issue or see their behavior as a problem, or

Scott Benner 15:32
with someone sees it, someone

Ben Shabad 15:35
sees exactly, exactly. So he's gonna show that the approach there is, is going to be a little bit different. Because first, you got to kind of start by, of course, rapport building, but then, you know, reflecting on the behavior and helping them see whether or not it's helping them achieve their goals and getting them to be where they want to be and be the type of person that they want to be. Or if it's if it's leading them astray.

Scott Benner 16:00
How much of psychology is maybe it's all of it is based in societal norms and expectations, right? Because let me make just I'll make a wild like distinction. If I was bipolar, and I, I could live my life and be bipolar, I'd probably run into violence, or assault at some point, I likely die sooner, I'd likely seek out probably I'd probably become a drug addict. But I would live a life that would come to a natural end. And so when you see a person whose that is their, their reality, like I'm trying to use a big reality for a second, the idea of helping them is really to put them inside of a societal norm. Is that right?

Ben Shabad 16:48
Yeah. Oh, 100%. And I think you had you were the guest the other day, I think that was talking about something along these lines, if I remember correctly, but you're talking about Yeah, kind of evolutionary psychology. So so a lot of the things that we consider to be problematic in today's day and age were advantageous at some point throughout human history. Yeah. If that makes sense.

Scott Benner 17:11
Like being able to grab somebody and smash their head into a rock, like, like, exactly what's happening would be considered murderous now, maybe 150 years ago, would have been considered a great way to stay alive.

Ben Shabad 17:22
Absolutely. Think about things like ADHD, which is very prevalent these days. You know, there's advantages to being very vigilant and, and paying attention to things happening around you all the time, you know, does it does it bode well, for somebody who has to sit in the math class and study the textbook? You know, no, but when you're looking at looking through the history of humans, yeah, it does, you know, it's advantageous for some people in your group or your tribe to be, you know, not so focused on, you know, the rocks in front of them, but to be paying attention to, you know, potential threats on the horizon, and things like that, you know, having their head always on the swivel can be, can have some major advantages. And so, yeah, you always have to look at things in the context of, of the society you're living in, of course, yeah.

Scott Benner 18:10
And then when it comes to personal safety, it's really is about our, it's about us being evolved. Because when we see a person struggling, generally speaking, society wants to help that person, if I always use like an ant hill as an example, but if an ant is struggling, if an ant has one of his legs cut off, the rest of the hill doesn't go, oh, no, look what happened to Bill, let's get him a crutch. Like they they're like they, you know, they they walk right past bill, because bills done now. And obviously, that doesn't work. Like I'm not, I'm trying to be clear, I'm trying to play both sides of the spin. But I would not abandon somebody, right? Like I'm of the idea that we would help. But but all of a sudden, you take this person who might be on a path that is, for the most part not correctable, like back to whatever you think normal is, and then you're just dragging their round peg into a square hole for their entire existence. And I'm not saying that. Maybe that's not valuable. But I've spoken to bipolar people. Yeah, you know what I mean? And when they're not in the middle of an episode, I don't know what you would actually call it, I got over the specific specifics of it. There's just lovely people like everybody else. And then you know what I mean, and then suddenly, they're in so now when you boil this idea down into not so big examples, right? And you start thinking about people who have medication needs as an example, like, like, you, you have an illness or a thing that doesn't work in your body and it's, it's, it's going to happen forever, right? This is not going to go away. And they hand you a pill or a shot or something and they say, do this like this is gonna make you healthier and extend your life? There are so many people who don't do it. Yeah, right. And and then they just accept that there Life isn't going to be, I guess what they had hoped, you know what they were promised on day one they are, quote unquote, promised on day one, and some people are okay with it. And some people aren't. And in the people who aren't are fastidious about like, you know, taking care of themselves and doing everything that they need to do, and then the people who don't, they don't seem to care now, where the line gets blurred to me is that in the case of blood sugar, if your blood sugar gets so high, you can't make good decisions anymore. So so if you're, you know, you miss your insulin for an afternoon that turns into a day, that turns into a 350 blood sugar. And now you're not quite thinking clearly. You know, if someone kind of helped you and brought you back down to baseline again, would you make a better decision the second time like, I'm just, I don't know, I think there's so much more than the way we think about it when when people look at it day to day, so when people come to you using diabetes as an example, is it mostly or mainly about being burned out? G voc hypo pan has no visible needle, and it's a premixed auto injector of glucagon for treatment of very low blood sugar. In adults and kids with diabetes ages two and above. Find out more go to G vo glucagon.com forward slash juicebox G voc shouldn't be used in patients with insulinoma or pheochromocytoma. Visit G voc glucagon.com/risk. My journey to finding a good green drink was not easy. But it did end when I found ag one from athletic greens. The first drink I tried was was nauseating. It made my stomach very ambiguous and I don't know if you know the word but it was upset. 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I'm telling you this, because when you click on my links or type them into a browser, you're supporting the show and helping to keep it free and plentiful. So thank you very much for taking that extra step. I'm gonna get you back to my conversation with Ben now it actually picks up gets a lot of enthusiasm as it goes on. It's interesting how it grows

mostly or mainly about being burned out. We're feeling cheated by life or something in that space.

Ben Shabad 24:16
Yeah, I mean, that's a Yeah, it's a great question. There's a lot embedded in that in everything you just said. I think when it comes to mental health related to diabetes, I experienced most clients who are who are dealing with very high levels of stress. Yeah, diabetes burnout. Because it is a 24 You know, it's a 24/7 disease. And so, you see a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, having a low sense of control over their lives, like eating disorders, body image issues, you know, feeling defeated. There's also a lack of, you know, some people struggle with a lack of independence because they feel so dependent on the people around them and, and the insulin itself, you know, to keep them alive. And they're they're putting excessive restrictions on their life. And some people get frustrated because they don't recognize the effort that's that other people don't recognize the effort that is required by them to manage their diabetes. Because it takes so much discipline in the mind and body to do it successfully.

Scott Benner 25:24
Can we? Can we pick through that for a second? Because that one, that one always fascinates me? The the drive the desire, the almost like, pathological need to make sure that everyone else understands how hard this is. What does that come from?

Unknown Speaker 25:40
Well, yeah, I mean,

Scott Benner 25:43
why does it matter? If every anybody else understand that your life is hard? I guess that's my question.

Ben Shabad 25:49
Well, you know what I think like any, any circumstance in your life, if you are very stressed about something, and other people don't recognize it, there can be an impasse there, right. You imagine in a relationship with a spouse or within a family or coworkers, if you are, if you are dealing with something very stressful, that's one of the reasons that therapy is so effective, because somebody is there hearing you witnessing it, you know, bearing witness to everything that you are struggling with. And so you got to get it out, you got to you have to tell somebody, it has to be recognized and acknowledged. Otherwise, you're sitting there and, and dealing with it all by yourself. And, and that can be it's very stressful.

Scott Benner 26:31
maddening. Yeah, but But I'm saying, listen, Ben, I'm asking you a question you don't know the answer to because I think it makes good conversation, and I am genuinely interested it but like, why does it matter if anybody else knows? Like, why? I mean, if, if you know why, yeah, what do you think?

Ben Shabad 26:47
Because humans are social creatures. And we're not designed to bear things by ourselves, to bear burdens by ourselves. And so I think that when you talk with people, so it meets a very central human need to be able to share your experiences, and, and get help, you know, it's it is it's imperative that you feel like you can be helped it into your sense of security, and safety. And so when you are dealing with something, you diabetes, you got to think about it like this with diabetes, as you know, if your daughter every, every now, Scott, you don't have diabetes,

Scott Benner 27:26
do you? Correct? I

Ben Shabad 27:28
do not. Okay, so every but you know, from your daughter, every decision you make with diabetes is a high stakes decision. We're not talking about, you know, and I think people that don't have diabetes, or have somebody in their family with diabetes, sometimes they equate it to maybe like, health, you know, trying to live more more healthfully, you know, making health conscious decision. So I'll just eat this, instead of this or do this instead of this. Your life is somewhat on the line with every decision that you make, right? A little bit too much insulin can be catastrophic. You know, eating too much sugar can be catastrophic, exercising too much or too little, can be catastrophic. And that takes a major toll, especially when you're trying to do it, right. And that's kind of the irony. And as some people do go through the burnout, and they just stopped caring, they stopped putting effort in. And that has its own absolutely set of issues, both for physical and mental health. But, you know, when you when you try to try to take control over your diabetes, then you start to realize that every decision that you're thinking about all the time is very impactful and high stakes

Scott Benner 28:36
is that you use the word giving up, right? So I heard you, right, right. You said like they can get burned up at burned out and give up? Is that the modern? equivalent? Do you think of just like the lay down and die while you're trying to cross the country for the first time, or you're on a ship and everybody's sick? And you just like, Screw it, you just jump in the ocean? You're like, I'm not doing this? Is that mean? Do you think that that's the modern version of this?

Ben Shabad 29:06
It isn't, it isn't. I mean, you know, all the stress of living with diabetes, all the effort, all the planning, all the calculating, all the inevitable failures, you know, can be too much for people and they get so drained that they want to give up. But and with diabetes, it's not something where you can just see the light at the end of the tunnel. And, and so the thought of having to manage the situation forever can be so overwhelming. And that's when you see a lot of the burnout. But you know, burnout, when you experience burnout, and we say give up, you know, like, I'm not going to do this anymore. Well, that that might mean for some people, they're just not going to take their insulin anymore, right? But then the problem doesn't just go away. It's not like, you know, I'm not going to dye it anymore because you feel terrible. As I'm sure you know from your daughter. When you stopped taking insulin, your blood sugars are very high. All the time we're swinging are chaotic. You can't just forget about it, there's really no way to just give up without feeling

Scott Benner 30:08
horrible. That's that's sort of my point. Like you can't give up because just puts you in a different horrible situation. Exactly. You're trading, you're trading one thing for another and they're exactly the same thing. And, and some people don't have give up in them at all. So can it be taught? Like, because my assumption is, here's a good example. I'm adopted. Okay. So I'm not genetically linked to my parents at all. My mom is at now, about six years, six months ago, we we thought for sure she was going to die. And we took her to doctors and doctors till somebody figured out what was wrong with her. My mom had cancer, just so much cancer, and she had to have a full hysterectomy. A full hysterectomy at 79 years old. The next day, as I talked to her on the phone, I said, Mom, how's the pain? She goes out, it's good, not bad. She's just been cut, like, you know, from her chest to her belly, you know, and opened up, they took out her insides threw them away. It fixed the hernia while they were in there did all these other things. As I'm talking to my mom, and she says there's no pain. I joke and say they got you on the good stuff. Mom. She was no, I'm taking Tylenol and Advil. And I'm like, What's this now my mom is taking over the counter medications for pain after a surgery where she was cut about a foot and a half, like through her belly. Today, two days later, she's up walking around, and they stick her into chemo, which is terrible. And she just soldier's forward as if there is no other option. And six months later, I'm actually I don't know if I've ever said this on here. My mom was pronounced to be in remission, which is an amazing thing. And then the next day after that she was put, she was told she was in remission, she got COVID and four days after that, she called me up, she's like, I'm done with this COVID I feel fine, I gotta get out of here. And you know, then they kept her for 20 days because of some state law in this COVID wing. And she just pushes through that. And I have that. I have that, like you come get me benefit goes bad because I'm not going down. And I can't I can't tell you why. I don't know why that's my reaction. Because life is hard. My, my daughter has type one diabetes, she's got a thyroid condition. My wife has a thyroid condition. My son has Hashimotos. You know, I just had a knee surgery, my back hurts all the time, blah, blah, blah. I get up every morning as hopeful as a newborn bird. And I don't know why.

Ben Shabad 32:36
That is fantastic. I mean, I'd love to. I'd love to know why.

Scott Benner 32:40
Yeah. Right. Because why? Because it's why you asked the question all the time. Because couldn't that be taught to someone else? Because they think it was taught to me? And I don't know, you know,

Ben Shabad 32:51
you you. You saw that example for you every day with your mom, it sounds like you guys have high resilience, my guess is that you probably have low levels of depression in your household, right?

Scott Benner 33:03
Well, for me, I'm like, I don't, I don't understand. Like, I can't wrap my head personally around depression at all. Like, I don't know that other people in my family don't get the feel sometimes. But for me, personally, I just have this. Everything seems so obvious to me. Something happens, you order it, I think I talked about it sometimes, like I somebody told me one time to think like an astronaut, like everything's trying to kill you order it in the you know, by importance and take care of the first thing that's trying to get you and then get the second thing. And I just think that I don't even think about I don't even think about things like oh, I want to go on vacation or I want to do this, like I'm happy in my work. I'm happy with my family. I don't see life as this thing that owes me something or that it's gonna pay me back bigger. I don't have any big hopes for it. I don't think I'm gonna become the grand Pooh bah at the end or something like that. Like, I just want to be around my family and do the things we're supposed to do

Ben Shabad 34:02
that I mean, that's fantastic. That's, that's really where you want to get. That's where you want to be where you are, you know, I think I think you are obviously a go getter. You have high resilience. And you have a passion for life. And I think what you said, you know, it's kind of telling you don't think that anybody owes you anything. And that's fantastic. Because to me, that means that you don't have a lot of shame. So when people feel very ashamed about themselves or or where they come from, or something about an aspect of themselves and you fill out a shame, then you start to feel like the world owes you something. This is unfair to you. And so yeah, it's like the opposite of guilty when you feel guilty. Guilt and shame kind of go together. When you feel guilty. You feel like you owe you owe the world you owe somebody else you've done. You've done something and now you owe to other people. When you feel ashamed. You feel like the world owes you something really right.

Scott Benner 34:58
And I understand if I'm guilty I feel Like, I owe that I get like, I have something I don't deserve, I should give it back or something like that is actually the very beginning years of the podcast, and even the blog I wrote before that, I did feel like that, like, when I realized that my thing helped people, I felt guilty for not helping more people. So one of the reasons I think I've grown the podcast so big, was to get rid of that feeling. You know, because I knew something about diabetes that other people didn't know. And it was impacting them so horribly. And I just thought it's not fair that they don't know this. It's my fault if I don't find them to tell them. But I've given that I gave that away. And I think that I gave that away just by making it so big that it's hard to, it's hard to ignore that it reaches a lot of people, right. But I don't understand the shame part, like shame makes me feel owed, how can you explain how that happens?

Unknown Speaker 35:53
Sure. Well,

Ben Shabad 35:57
so there is basically I think it boils down to the fact that when, when you're ashamed of something, then you feel like something was done to you. And so it's not fair. And you have to hide it away. And, and so, so then you're owed something, it's kind of just it's it's the way that we try to balance it out to our brains try to balance out that that phenomenon. It's

Scott Benner 36:28
so Odin, the, let me see if I understand so owed in the sense that something happened to me. I'm ashamed of it. If some if if this thing would have just gone differently, I wouldn't feel like this. I'm owed a better chance at this a better shot than I was given. Is that right? Exactly. Okay. Exactly.

Ben Shabad 36:45
Exactly. Okay, well, that's interesting. Yeah. And so and so right. Even though those two things, the guilt and shame go together, the way they impact the person and the way they manifest are very different. And so, you know, you see people who have a lot of shame oftentimes that they, they can display narcissistic personality traits, right? So I get everything I'm owed everything I can take, I can take I can take because something was done. That's so wrong to me. So I have something that that's so bad happening with me. And I didn't deserve that. And because I didn't deserve that. Now I have the right to take, right everything is mine. I am owed

Scott Benner 37:26
free pass, get a free pass now. Somebody somebody slap somebody down, I can knock you all over if I want to.

Ben Shabad 37:33
Exactly you might see kleptomania you know, where where people are taking things and no, it's not wrong. I'm entitled to this, you know, I've dealt with my share, I've already been given a bad hand, everything else is owed to me.

Scott Benner 37:46
Okay. I'm sorry, I'm actually telling my daughter not the Bolus. But this is the podcast where everybody's okay with that. So, okay, all right. So I understand, I do get that. And so when. So when people come to you, where they seek out help in general, they, they're at a point where they're, they or somebody has said to them, you're upside down, like you need help, I don't know how to help you. You're not listening to me. And, you know, I'm people are pointing out maybe this maybe that, you know, I again, I think maybe well, meaning people are not the best. The are not the best equipped to walk you through your psychological minefield. Yeah, because they, they see their perspective and then they layer on top of that, I imagine all of their problems. So they might be more mirroring themselves onto you than actually seeing you. So your job is sort of to be a blank slate and to not mirror back and leave your baggage outside and talk to people in a in an academic way about these issues? Um,

Ben Shabad 38:55
yes, and no, I mean, in academic ways, academic perspective is important. But I'm also a human. And part of the sometimes people are looking for connection when they come to therapy a lot of the time back that the number one factor that that determines whether or not therapy is going to be successful for people is the rapport they have with their therapist. Sure. So that is a huge factor in the relationship you guys have and that that comes from two humans, right? You're not talking to a machine a computer. And so part of it is, yeah, of course, I have to I have to recognize my own biases. That's very, very important for therapy, but but I also have experiences, you know, personal experiences, and I also have experiences that with other clients. And so everything, you you come to the table with everything you have at your disposal, and then it's about figuring out figuring out what a what yeah, what has brought that person to therapy. Are they correctly identifying the issues that are that they're struggling with? And what what is under Find those those issues, right? Is it? What's it rooted in? Is it rooted in trauma? Is it rooted in? You know, guilt or shame? Or? Or what are the underlying factors that are causing them to feel distress or that they're that are feeling like, their life isn't where, where they want it to be right now. And so it takes a lot of self reflection and a lot of exploration. So it's not me just diagnosing telling them that, you know, this is the issue, and this is what you need to do it. It definitely comes from the client, right? So it's, I'm helping them with their exploration and helping putting words to it, and sorting through some of those issues. And then, and then getting to the point where, you know, okay, what do we need to do about this?

Scott Benner 40:47
Yeah, so the, the idea of like you, you can help them by sharing some of your anecdotes and experiences, as long as they're not colored in a way where, like, I mean, like, something ridiculous, like, in the middle of a session, you don't look at somebody and go, I'm very anti union. You don't and be like, like, like, not personal that way, but just your personal like, yeah, I see. I do understand. Gosh, I was just gonna say something, and it fell right out of my head. So I've made

Ben Shabad 41:16
self disclosures in therapy are not not always an appropriate, you know, it just depends on the circumstances. Okay. Well, you have to keep in mind is, the session is not about me, it's not about my issues, right? So so it's only only appropriate if it's if you feel like it's going to help the client. It's all about them. That's their time, and you're trying to help them, help them with whatever, whatever needs are presenting. And so

Scott Benner 41:42
do you think, Oh, I'm sorry? I'm sorry? Do you think that it's important for them to realize you're not perfect? Or is or do some people need to see you as a, as a bastion of hope? And some people need to see you as a person?

Ben Shabad 41:56
Yeah, that's kind of a funny question. They know, I think they need to see you as a human. Okay, absolutely. It's not, you know, I don't even like this is hierarchy in the in the therapy session, you know, I don't I don't put myself above the clients, I'm working with him, I'm no better, no worse than they are, are just people, everybody's people. Everybody has their own issues. You know, nobody is without issues. And, and part of the part of the way you become a good therapist is by figuring out your own issues, you know, what, what have I done? That's worked for me? What strategies have helped me overcome challenges? And but no, I don't want my clients to see me as being a perfect specimen who doesn't deal with challenges, because that wouldn't be that wouldn't be helpful to them. And it's not the truth, you know? Yeah.

Scott Benner 42:45
You know, though, that people see doctors like that, like using a doctor as an example, which is part of the reason why managing diabetes is sometimes so difficult, because you go to this person who's not perfect, who may not understand your diabetes very well, but you believe in your heart that they know. And then if they say something to you, I've been one of the things that I see people struggle with most often is they get bad information. They suss it out as bad information, but they keep following it. Because the person who told it to them in their mind knows more about it than they do.

Ben Shabad 43:19
Right. Right. So yeah, I mean, I, you know, you do have an expertise, and you, you have training in psychotherapy, and so, absolutely, you you share, you share that as needed. And, and, and that's very valuable information, of course, but also, you know, psychology is human connection, and understanding and empathy. And that concept plays largely plays out largely in therapy sessions, and, and is a very effective tool.

Unknown Speaker 43:52
Should I say? So?

Ben Shabad 43:54
Very important. No, I'm just saying both of those are very important, the academic and the human side. I don't think you can do do without either one of those. And in fact, if you are going to dispense with one of those, I would say the academic side

Scott Benner 44:06
is the one. Yeah, if I, if I go and seek out therapy, should I think of it as surgery? Or should I think of it as insulin? Meaning? Am I going to need it a little bit every day? Or is there going to be a time where what you do fix it and I don't have to think about it again.

Ben Shabad 44:26
So that, you know, that totally depends on the client, some clients, some clients are in therapy multiple times a week, right, very intensive. It takes work and it's draining and and the level of support that a client needs just depends on their, their level of need some clients to check in once once a month, you know, maybe even once every couple of months. And so, it just depends on the presenting issues and where they are in terms of the level of support that they need. Okay, but yeah, effective therapy, it's not, it's generally not a quick fix, you know, it's, you're doing a lot of exploration, it's hard work. And so you really need to have a good connection with the therapist, and you need to be willing to let your guard down. And, and a good therapist helps you do that, you know, because you have these internal systems, psychological systems that are designed to prevent you from really looking closely at, at some of these, some of these negative, you know, traumas or experiences that you've had, because they can be, they can be dangerous in the psyche. And so, a good therapist and and a willing participant what what, what you do is you got to lower some of those barriers and get to the root of what's going on.

Scott Benner 45:51
I say, I'm, I'm kind of fascinated sometimes like, just like using a hoarder as an example. Like, you know, there, you see a television show or someone's packed in a house where they almost can't move. They're hoarding junk and garbage, their own feces, like any dead animals, anything they can have. But yet they're alive and they're healthy. And I think, wow, we're resilient. Like this person is fundamentally flawed, psychologically. And they're still doing it. Like I was like, I'm always like, kind of like, it's funny, I think of those things differently. Other people might look and go, that poor person, I'm like, look at how that person is persevering. There's like, there, there are dead cats in a corner. Like there's a dead cat corner in their house, and they're still like, alive and their hairs combed. I'm like, it's insane. It's insane. It's insane, that we're that, that we can be that resilient, and yet, at times, give up so easily over little things. And sometimes I feel like the giving up is a cough. It's a cry for help. Right?

Ben Shabad 46:55
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. And it's funny, that's your, your approach is, is again, very hopeful, very optimistic. You're always seeing the bright side of things, Scott. And I think that that's, that's an awesome attribute.

Scott Benner 47:07
Well, Ben, the the alternatives if you die, so I don't have a lot of options in my, in my opinion about life, you know what I mean? Like, it's just,

Ben Shabad 47:14
some people do take a much more negative view of life, they can see a situation and see all the downsides and, and the failures and, and everything that's going wrong. And other people like yourself, see the same situation, and you're like, How can I help? What can I make of this? A lot of things happening here, you know, you take a strengths approach

Scott Benner 47:32
by this by by the same token, I'll share with you about myself as I love to complain. But I don't mean it. In a real world scenario, like I love I can when I complain, it feels it's joyous. I love to complain about things, but I almost see it as thinking them through to it, you know, like you blow it up, big picture you you go, Well, here's the problem. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. I can't fix this scenario. But I'll tell you what, if I ever get put in this situation, I'm not going to do the things I saw go wrong here. It feels like a mental exercise to me complaining, I'm not doing it because I want something fixed. And I'm not doing it. Because I need somebody to hear that. I disagree. I just liked the exercise of talking about it for some reason. Yeah.

Ben Shabad 48:20
It's your almost it's almost like a dream where you're just it's an unstructured and you're just letting these thoughts filter through. And and you do it with a good sense of humor. And and I know this about you only because I listen to your, your podcasts a lot. I think you have a lot of those good psychological qualities about you. I think you you have this kind of relaxed unstructured style when you're speaking. You're very personable, you use sarcasm the right way. And it's not it's not hostile at all. And it's not. I don't I don't detect a lot of you know, resentfulness it's more like you said, just trying to understand and explain things in your own way.

Scott Benner 49:03
Yeah, I I think if this podcast was structured, it wouldn't be any good. Like, or at least I'd be the wrong person to hosted. Yeah, right. Right. Right. Yeah. I just can't I when people talk about like, we're gonna make a bullet list and we're gonna I'm like, Oh, God, please don't do that. Or, you know, they're like, coming on the show. What are we going to talk about it? I don't know. We'll figure it out. After you say, Hey, my name is Ben. You know, I don't want to because I believe that we probably talked about we're only 45 minutes out of this. I believe we probably talked about a dozen things already. That never would have come up if I would have run this. But you would like you would expect it to be run or like you see it run by other people, I guess.

Ben Shabad 49:45
Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, I think part of that is because you trust the process. Now how you got to that point is is of interest to me, and I'm sure

Scott Benner 49:54
that might be narcissism, Ben. But not the bad part of it where I feel like everybody owes me And then I feel like like that part, like, let me let me be like this happened to me, let me impose my will on you. I just believe in myself, but not what we want. So,

Ben Shabad 50:11
yeah, there's there's a kind of confidence and competency there that, you know, things are gonna land you're not scared of things going wrong because

Scott Benner 50:22
well, I can tell you why I feel that way. Because because bad things have happened and I'm still alive. Sure, right. And so we were talking about this the other day in my house. My son just got done College, and he's talking about his future. And it's obviously a time fraught with, you know, the unknown. And he can he's verbalizing and talking it through out loud, which is great. We spent a lot of days since he got home from school just talking about what what might be. And I realized that the difference between he and I is, I did not grow up with any expectations. Like, I didn't think I was going to be happy or financially sound or have a new car, or I have no expectations for life, I have the bar set so incredibly low that no matter what happens, I'm like, look at us when you know. And, and I lived through hard things. Like Like, I definitely believe in, you know, pressure makes diamonds or whatever, you know, whatever you want to say there. But yeah, I somebody, I mean, think about it, Ben, when I was a baby, like just born, people who had me were like, you take it, and like and so like you have that knowledge about yourself. And then you get, you know, people adopt you. They fight. They're real people, they get divorced, you know, and that's a hard thing. And then my mom goes off to work to you know, try to keep us all together. And I'm raising my brothers and their little, and I'm young. And that's a hard thing. But to me, every day I open my eyes. I'm still here. I'm like how we're doing it. And so eventually you go through these experiences over and over again. And when you see the next one coming down the street, I'm not scared of it. I'm like, oh, that's this thing. I know what to do about this. You know what I mean? And then I just do it. I think I just have more experiences at a young age than most people get. I'm just wasn't

Ben Shabad 52:20
you, you have a survivor's mentality. And so you're always looking to, you know, things are going to be okay. And at the core, you know, things are going to land. Yeah.

Scott Benner 52:32
And Ben, for clarity, really broke as a child, like not like I was sitting in like a seven bedroom house going, Oh, my parents got divorced. What are we ever going to do? I guess we'll use the pile of money. My mom got it. For my living. It wasn't like that, like my mom made $4 An hour and a terrible job. There was four of us. We only had a place to live because a local church rented us a parsonage that they weren't using, like I grew up really poor. And yet, I never, ever once didn't think I can't do this. I dug myself out, dug myself out, I pulled my brothers along with me. You know what I mean? And I did the best I could. And it makes me think of a friend of mine who grew up in a situation. And I'm going to keep this very vague because I don't believe this is something they want share. But literally grew up in a trailer park where they were surrounded by really terrible drug abuse. And was, I think one of three kids. And the grandmother scraped up enough money to send one of them to college, and literally made the Sophie's Choice, right, picked one of the kids and said, it's you your arm, you're our hope, like you get out of here and come back for us. And he did it. Like he went, he became an attorney. He's successful. He bought a home for his, his siblings, he pulled his parents out of it. Like he took that very seriously. And when he and I talk privately, it's fascinating because he's an accomplished person and a very bright man and everything else. But when we talk about our childhoods, it is quite clear that he has enough anger in him to lay waste to a mountain chain if he needed to. And it's funny because he took that anger and that disappointment. And he focused it at something positive. Instead of going to a bar and getting a little wasted and punching people in the face. Yeah,

Ben Shabad 54:28
you hit the nail. I mean, anger, you know, anger has downsides to it and sure be considered a negative emotion lead you astray. But it can also be a really productive fuel source. And if you sublimate it in the right way, like your friend did, then then it can have some really positive and great outcomes. You know, Dr. Turn tab, you say screw people, I'm a screw this upbringing or my parents, if they wronged me or whatever my circumstances are. I'm going to use that and show them you know, I'm going to show them that I'm gonna make something of myself and, and that's awesome that he did that, you know,

Scott Benner 55:04
it's like he turned it into Drive, it's almost like he mined the anger out of himself and turned it into Drive. Like is the best way I can describe what he did. And, and so. So Ben, like if you listened to enough episodes of this podcast and you're really listening, what you're going to see is that I applied the way I think about living to managing diabetes. That's really all I did. When you hear me talk, it's why I'm enjoying this conversation with you and why I'm having it so other people can hear it. Because if you just take out the, the words we used around, you know, life and family and everything and put in Bolus and basil and you know, a one C, I really just managed diabetes, the way I managed my life, I tried very hard to keep drama out of it, I make sure that I have experiences that I can draw on when I need them. When these bad things happen. I steal up and I get through to the next day, and I keep going I appreciate good days, I don't expect them. And I don't know like if you're listening to this podcast, and you think the way I talk about management of insulin and stuff like that is valuable. All I'm really telling you is about how I went from a little adopted kid to where I am now. I just translated to diabetes. So

Ben Shabad 56:21
it's it's a fantastic mentality, do you have a very healthy way to to deal with the world? Do you feel like your daughter has picked up some of that from you?

Scott Benner 56:31
She's definitely got the I don't care part down that that, that she's got good. She's learning about the management stuff, you know, as it goes, she's had, you know, experiences with diabetes that she can draw on in the future for certain she's not as good at it as I am. But for the same reasons that that waylay everybody you know, because she sleeps and I can stay awake if I need to. Because, because and I think this one's a big one. Because you generally speaking, care and love your loved ones more than you care about yourself. And, you know, yeah, and, and because she's busy living her life, and part of my life is managing her diabetes. So she doesn't have that same thing. So we just pass it off slowly, like I look years ago, one of the most you'll appreciate this as a longtime type one. And as an adult, that as I came up through this, and I'd go to speaking events or make podcasts or do whatever I did. adults with type one would always come up to me and say, Oh, this is all well and good. But how are you going to teach it to her? And I and that was I wonder if that's shame. Oh, that's so interesting. Because they were so they were so every time it happened. There was an anger in the question. I get a long line. Sometimes I get it my private life. Yeah, yeah, sure you figure it out. But you're not going to be able to teach it to her. Because nobody, because I think the unspoken part of that sentence was no one was able to teach it to me. Right. And I always tell them the same thing. I take this diabetes thing the same way I think about parenting, you got to say the same thing a million times over and over again, without acting like you're irritated by it until you see and figure it out. And you move on to the next thing and you keep trying to build on top of them until I get so old. I don't care anymore. And then you're on your own. You know, like, I mean, does it matter, right? Like, it's like, what you're doing,

Ben Shabad 58:28
you're doing a great service for your daughter, because she has so much support with you while talking to her and helping her to manage the diabetes that she doesn't feel alone. And that is one of the one of the major themes I see when working with people with diabetes is they feel alone because the burden is so high. They don't always have they're not always so lucky to have parents like you who are so involved with it. So they your daughter, I would imagine does not feel like she's dealing with this by herself sure that her dad's got her back, and that the value in that is is immeasurable. Well, there's

Scott Benner 59:04
a lot of luck in it too, though, Ben because I mean, I've I've interviewed enough people to know that there are some people who you know, everybody when they're having a baby Or their wife's pregnant, you hear they tell the stories like you know, one day if something happens and a car comes, I'll push them out of the way I'll jump in front of the car, then you know, when the car comes proverbially sometimes they pretend like they don't see it. You know what I mean? They're like, hey, you know what, the kid can get hit by this one. It's already like, I'm not going to take this one. And, and there. And so that's sometimes what happens. I just interviewed a gentleman the other day. I mean, I think seven years old and the family was like, you'll figure it out, like figure it out. Like he's got nothing figured out. He doesn't know where his Legos are, you're gonna put him in charge of diabetes, you know? And, and then the other side of it is, what if your parents are just not intellectually agile enough? Right, like, even if they aren't, so you could end up with a parent that's not in often puts it on you, you could end up with a parent who is involved, but it's more of a detriment than a help. Or you might get lucky and have somebody who's interested and understands it.

Ben Shabad 1:00:10
Or another category as you can get, you get parents who are called helicopter parents, but they're so involved with everything that they they basically clear the road of any obstacles and that kid never learns to, to deal with, with challenges on their own.

Scott Benner 1:00:25
Yeah, that's how you end up with a carbon kid. Not a diamond kid. Right? Yeah, right. I didn't know. I didn't mean to make science in there. But without the pressure the carbon anyway, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I do think that's true, too. I mean, there have been times that my kids have been hurt playing sports, or something bad's happened to them, and bless my wife, my wife would, my wife would murder all of you to save my children, as I imagine you would for that for your children, right. And you know that something happened to the kids. And she stands it up on like, just, like I put my hand on, I'm like, Just wait, just you guys. I'm like, they're not dead. If this was going to kill them, they'd be dead already. So now they're just hurt. So let them be hurt for a minute, like, let them process the whole thing. And then we'll get to a situation where we'll come in, and we'll do what we're supposed to do. But you can't, you can't show up before they have an opportunity to benefit from this bad moment. And, again, if you listen to the podcast, I tell people all the time, when something goes wrong with their insulin, when their blood sugar does something that they don't expect or didn't want. You don't throw your hands up and yell, oh, that's just diabetes, I have no control over this, this thing is terrible. You use it as an example. Because until you learn from this example, it's going to have to keep happening until you can figure out oh, I see this coming. I know how to avoid this. And that's what I thought about like, with my kids, like I actually see talking about insulin like that the same exact way I see letting a kid get hit in the leg in a baseball game and not jumping on the field to check on him right away. Like, you need to see this thing through, figure out what it is. So that next time, you can either avoid it or or more gracefully, get your way through it. Anyway,

Ben Shabad 1:02:13
ya know what, here's what you're saying you use everything as a learning experience. And I couldn't agree more. The thing with diabetes is sometimes there is no rhyme or reason, or at least one that you can identify. And so there can be a stressful situation that you cannot, you can't you know, maybe your blood sugars are high or low or something, you know, the insulin hits you the wrong way. And you can't you don't learn in the sense that next time I'll do things differently. So it's not it's not about the specific diabetes event. But what you do learn is the perseverance, the resilience is that it's okay, that I don't know what caused that that's gonna happen sometimes. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:02:51
I think that I can live with that.

Scott Benner 1:02:53
And so I pull you know what I almost use the word teach. And I don't think of myself as a teacher. But I talk about the idea of sometimes it's not important to know why it happened. Just fix it and keep moving. Right, like, and so and that's, and I tell you, I see people online, there's a great thread in my Facebook group recently, where someone was somebody just very lovely. I wish I could find it. They just said, like, here's the thing I heard on the podcast that really helped me, what's the thing that you heard on the podcast that helped you? And I kept track of that thread? Because I was like, Well, what am I saying that people are finding valuable? And you know, maybe there's stuff I'm saying that I'm like, maybe I don't have to say that anymore. It may be it's not striking people but but I got to a person who said exactly what I just talked to you about. One of the things that helps them the most is that they don't need to diagnose every situation and understand it while it's happening, that they can get through it start over and look at it later if they want to. Or just decide it's an anomaly and keep moving. Much in the same way as if I was walking through a mountain trying to get the Montana from New York and the 1800s. And a an A Brock fell next to me, I wouldn't spend the rest of my life thinking a rock fella was gonna fall on my head, I would think, well, that's interesting. And then I would move on, but some people get some people get trapped in the idea that the rocks gonna fall on them. Yeah, that's right.

Ben Shabad 1:04:17
Absolutely. Or, you know, it's it's feeling that you you sometimes impact more things or have more control over the environment than you do. The same goes if you have a negative interaction with maybe somebody you don't know that, well, somebody on the street, right? You might, you might think, Oh, why did this person say such a nasty thing to me? What did I do? What's wrong with me, et cetera? How could I have handled that differently? It's, or what can I do to make sure that I don't cause anything like that again? Well, sometimes some of that is out of your control. So it doesn't help to just keep ruminating about what your role was because you might not figure it out. The important thing is, are you okay? And is it okay that something like that happens? Are you able to get yourself back to Bay Slide and keep moving forward bend is

Scott Benner 1:05:01
that what's commonly called magical thinking?

Ben Shabad 1:05:05
Your magical thinking, Yeah, I mean, feeling that you're kind of more omnipotent than you are, right? You see this with, with young kids, it's a it's a very natural phenomenon, where they, they feel like they have much more power to control over the universe than they actually do. And so, healthy development is, is learning that, you know, you don't actually bad things happen in there. They're not your fault. And some things are you can control certain things, and you can't control other things. And people make their own decisions, et cetera, et cetera. And that that's so yeah, there is there. People always have some magical thinking, of course, and it's helpful through the therapeutic process to identify it. So that you can kind of accurately think about situations in your life.

Scott Benner 1:05:51
Yeah, I find that I always find that very interesting. I tell I've told a story on here before I won't bother you with it was one time I heard like, if you step on a crack, you break your mother's back, and I was walking to school one day, and I found myself thinking about it and, and avoiding cracks in the sidewalk. And it took me even I was in elementary school. It took me about 30 seconds ago. This is stupid. And then I purposely stood on every crack on the way to school I could find went home and there was my mom, and she was okay. And I was like, I knew that was stupid. Like, can you imagine? Becky imagined I get home my mom's on the floor writhing in pain. She's like, I don't know what happened. My back just kept breaking.

Ben Shabad 1:06:32
Yeah, but you know, those and much more common, of course, in childhood, but those superstitions don't go away. There's that there's a part of our brain just part of the human brain that that has that going on, you know that where we are, we are susceptible to those types of superstitions you're having, you know, it's connected to probably a religious part of the brain, too.

Scott Benner 1:06:57
But and that's so interesting. I have no religious upbringing, and I'm the least superstitious person you'll ever meet in your life. It's a superstition. It's, it's funny, is so far away from how I think that when I try to use the word in conversation, I can't find it sometimes. Wow, I only knew it just now because you use that first. That's why I went on like, oh, there's that thing that I don't have. Oh, look at me. And I saved all that money. And all those Sunday mornings I was able to sleep.

Ben Shabad 1:07:29
Do you feel this? Does that cause you any stress? Not? Because you know religion and religion, for example, can can bring people a lot of satisfaction and comfort? You? Do you find that without that things are? Some of those uncertainties about life and death become more stressful for you?

Scott Benner 1:07:50
I don't feel stressful about the only thing that bothers me thinking about dying is leaving my children alone. Okay, I other than that, I don't like I'm a pretty happy person. I love what I do. I love how it helps people. If I walked out in the street thing got hit by a car, my last thought would be, huh. And that would probably be the end of it. So, you know, I know I'm going to die. I'm okay with that. As near as I can. I'm sure as I get closer to it, I'll get less, you know, okay with it. But, but I don't feel like it's coming today. The passage of time bothers me. In that I think about it, you know, but it's the measurement stuff. It's your, your kid graduating from something or, you know, you look back and like, oh, wow, we built this thing 10 years ago, or you throw something away. And you think, God, when did we buy that? Or, you know, I saw sweat shirt that my wife and I used to share when she was in college, and it's gone. And it made me sad that the sweatshirt was gone. But I stopped thinking about it about eight seconds after that. You know,

Ben Shabad 1:08:54
your family and raising kids is the absolute most important thing

Scott Benner 1:08:58
to you. It's the only thing I care about. And not the only thing but it's the thing I care about most I will tell you that very recently, you know, we were having a conversation just about my my wife's 401 K plan. I've a podcast. So obviously Ben, I don't have a 401 K plan. But um, but when you're talking about my wife, we were going to move it to another management place like it was just sitting somewhere she had had an old job and we were going to move this is a common thing that happens if you leave a job you leave a 401 K behind we were going to move it over to somewhere else. So we're talking to the person who's going to move it. And he says to me, what do you want to do when you retire? And I didn't answer him with what I thought. Because I thought I sounded ridiculous. And and so I what I said to him instead was like I really don't know. Like I think of myself as what I do. I do what I do, because it helps people because I enjoy it. It helps my family. It pays my bills. And I like So I do that thing. And moreover, I see myself as a tool that makes money so that my family can thrive. And I haven't thought about what I would do if I didn't have to do those things or who I would be. But the truth is Ben, that's the answer I gave him. The truth is, when he said it, I thought, I want to watch my son play baseball. It's the only thing I could think of, it'll make me cry now, Ben, if we start talking about it. So here's the only thing that really popped into my head. He said, What do you want to do when you retire? And I thought, I want to go to a field, and I want to watch my son play baseball. It's the only thing I could think of. So

Ben Shabad 1:10:37
it's so important for you to be there for your kids, because probably having to do with your you being adopted at a young age, you know, the comment you made earlier? About being away? You know, I can tell there was a little bit of hostility there. You know, maybe I'm misinterpreting it. But that's what it sounded like, to me a little bit of anger there. And you I think you kind of probably made a commitment somewhere along the way that, you know, I will never abandon my family, I will be there for them, you know, through the, through the thick and thin of life. And that that is my meaning. That is my purpose. And I will never do anything close to what was done to me.

Scott Benner 1:11:14
Yeah. So much. So I'm aware of all this, Ben, I appreciate it. Because I think you're right. I appreciate it. Because I appreciate it, Ben, because you agree with me. But But I believe you're right. And but when I was younger, in my 20s and 30s. I could not stand it if my family members fought with each other. Because I linked fighting with divorce. Yeah. And so if people disagreed, it was incredibly important to me that they, they did not walk away from the conversation angry. And it took me a long time to realize that that's not how things work. Yeah, and I've given that away, too. Like you can't mediate everything, and that sometimes people's feelings overwhelm their common sense, actually, most of the times their feelings overwhelm their common sense. And so I've gotten very good at letting personal drama play out. And, and paying attention to when it's ready, like when they're ready to find the resolution and not try to force a resolution.

Ben Shabad 1:12:22
Yeah, I wonder if you have this part of your personality that's very, very personable and very calm, I could see you being very calm in stressful situations and, and mending things over and kind of being the bridge builder, perhaps or, you know, between two fighting parties, you kind of give give me that, that sense when I talked with you, and I wonder if part of that has developed over the course of your life, because because you you need to make sure that the family doesn't split apart. You know that that is your role.

Scott Benner 1:12:53
Right? Yeah. Because when it when it goes the other way, your mom cries a lot. That's why, you know, yeah, that's not good, either. Yeah. Right. So it's just, you know, it's, uh, it really is that and it's funny. Like, if I, if I saw my family is a dysfunctional thing, that would be better off without each other. I can't honestly tell you that I would force it together. I just don't. I just I think luckily enough, I don't see them that way. And so it seems to me, you know, little problems that come up day to day and stuff like that, that are not the kind of things you throw away a family over or you throw a relationship over. So I mean, even even being married like, it's, you're pretty young, right? I am 34. And I heard a baby earlier. Did

Unknown Speaker 1:13:37
I not? You did? Yeah. A little kid. Okay. Your three year old and a one year old?

Scott Benner 1:13:42
I thought earlier, I either heard a baby or somebody was running an electric drill. I couldn't tell which it was at first. I thought it's probably a baby. So that was probably my one year old vow. Yeah. Adorable. Congratulations. That's that's thank you for Yeah. But but the idea of like, you don't know yet, like, you know, from talking to people, so you have a better idea than most people but being married for a lifetime is incredibly difficult. And, and the way I approach it, is that I don't expect it all to be perfect. You know, I said to my wife, one time I was looking for married for 40 years, one day and 10 of the years were amazing. And 10 of them were terrible. And five of them were okay. And eight of them were not so bad. And, you know, there was that one year where we probably didn't talk to each other. Like, if that's what it is at the end. That seems like a pretty big success to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Shabad 1:14:33
Marriage is not all, you know, sunshine. I mean, it's, it's, it's more than just romance. It's it's a friendship, it's a partnership, and there's ups and downs all the time. And so you kind of have to weather the storm and and cherish the times when everything's going well. I think

Scott Benner 1:14:51
there's times that you have to have a macro view and there's times you have to have a micro view. And you know, if someone's hitting you that's micro view time like this isn't out, okay, it has to stop. But if you're just arguing about wanting to spend money on something or not having money or something like that, and this argument lasts for a couple of weeks or something like that, you have to step back macro and say, If I'm going to be married for two years, these last two weeks are meaningless. In the grand scheme of things, it's almost the way you think about your life on the planet and time and stuff like that, like, my life is incredibly important to me and the people who love me. And beyond that, it's fairly meaningless to everything else, you know, and I find some comfort in that. And whereas I think other people find that to be a scary thought, but I don't.

Ben Shabad 1:15:38
Yeah, well, I think you're, you're expanding your your reach, especially with this podcast, I think you're impacting a lot of people in a really positive way. People who, people who have diabetes, people who want to learn more about diabetes, people who are just interested in the good conversation.

Scott Benner 1:15:58
Thank you. Yeah, I

Ben Shabad 1:15:59
think you have a great podcast. And you're right, you do have to look at some people get uncomfortable with feeling too insignificant. You know, in the grand scheme of things, when you look at the universe, we are pretty insignificant. You know,

Scott Benner 1:16:13
I think it's comforting Ben, it means if I screw something up, it's not really that bad. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, you know, just even the weirdest stuff. We planted eight bushes one time, and one of them died. And I was like, hmm, only one of them died. That's great. And I know my neighbor was like, Can you believe that bush died? And I was like, Yeah, I mean, I can pull for you. Yeah, like it to me. I was like, wow, only one. That's terrific. And he was like, Oh, now you got to replace it. And I was like, Yeah, but only one died. That's good. So anyway, then I'm not gonna hold any we're over our time. And I apologize. No, not at all. But I want to I just want to say if anyone's still listening, first of all, you're a great fan. Thank you for listening to the end. Oh, is appreciate that. And secondly, everything that I've brought up today, just listen to it, and then apply it to your life with diabetes and things will get easier. It just, it's all right there, Ben. Avoid drama. Understand what moments are important, what moments aren't important. You know, safety overall, keep the family together, Gillick, that kind of stuff. Like it all. It all leads to fairly good success and in my mind, a life that's unencumbered day to day for the most part, which I think is like my goal. My goal is just that for most of my days to be good. Yeah. And

Ben Shabad 1:17:32
I think you do that very well, by sticking to your, your ethics and your values and, and feeling like you're, you're contributing in a meaningful way to the world,

Scott Benner 1:17:42
and you want to hear my ethics. When I was younger, I used to tell people, people were like, how do you run your life? And I said, I never lie if I don't have to. And I try to treat people the way I want to be treated. Those are my those were only my only two roles growing up. That was fantastic. That was it. Ben, what are your rules? What do you what's the line? You won't cross? Oh, that's tough. Spot?

Unknown Speaker 1:18:07
Yeah.

Ben Shabad 1:18:10
You know, I think I think I have to say you have to be honest with yourself. And maybe that's my psychology brain talking. But I think you, I think you if things are not going well in your life, you have to look at things through an honest lens and ask yourself why and, and, you know, live by your values, literally, the things that are important to you being being straight with people. Being honest, you I know I keep saying Be honest to yourself, I think that's such an important thing because I see all the time with other people and with myself at times that there's a lot of deception when you have these conversations with yourself, you know, you're not, you're not being real, you're kind of hiding, hiding maybe some underlying reasons for why you're doing what you're doing. And so if you have a good relationship with yourself, and you're not scared to look inside yourself, and I think that can have some really positive and productive results. And so that's what I was trying to do.

Scott Benner 1:19:09
But if you're lying to yourself, there's no way you're gonna have success with anything. Exactly. It's I heard a comedian say one time I kind of wish I could remember her name. She was so funny. She's I went on that weightwatchers where you write down all your calories and one day I had a pie and wrote down that I had cashews. I'm the only one that sees the list she said and that was such an insight to people like like no one sees this but you what does it matter what you write down your your She's literally lying to herself. Yeah, and yeah, just to get over, right? Like it gets you through that gets the difference between its difference, which is just getting to the next day, and the next day actually being one. I'll tell you that I'm gonna finish my thought with a statement but one of the things I detest most in life is when you and I are in a room together then and If I lie to you, you know, I'm lying. And I know you know, I'm lying. And none of us stop lying. I find that to be maybe the most maddening of human interactions. And it feels like a waste of time, it insults the amount of life I have. And I can't fathom why everyone is lying when everyone knows the truth. It's absolutely maddening to me. Is that a common thing that people do, though?

Ben Shabad 1:20:35
You mean, like for both parties to be sitting there and lying or not acknowledging the elephant in the room,

Scott Benner 1:20:40
it's basically lying to yourself, but in a in a family, or a group situation?

Ben Shabad 1:20:46
Yeah, it happens all the time. It happens in large ways and small ways. Sometimes you don't even know it's not always conscious, you know, you don't know you're lying to yourself. You know, and it takes it takes a lot of work and a lot of self exploration to figure out why you keep telling yourself like a narrative, for example, about your life or about the way things are, you know, certain set of circumstances that you're in. And you keep telling yourself these little stories all the time, there's voices in your head all the time, and they're on repeat. And and you have to question them, you know, you have to say, wait a minute, is this is this real? Is this? Am I being honest with myself? And? And if not, why not? You know, what's being covered up here? And but, you know, it has to start from a place of recognizing that you don't like where you are, right? You know, I need to change something. I am not satisfied where I am. And I want things to be better,

Scott Benner 1:21:47
can it? I'm sorry to cut you off. I didn't mean to, but I'll go ahead. Can it help you if you're in a in a financially depressed situation? Or you just don't have a lot of resources? Can it help to make tiny changes? The ones you can affect? Is that a thing that can build for you to bigger things?

Ben Shabad 1:22:06
Are you saying financially distressed? Because you're saying if you'd like can't afford a therapist? Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:22:09
If you can't Well listen, if you can't afford a therapist, or if you can't even afford to dream that things are gonna go well, I guess is what I'm talking about. Like if I get up every day, to go make french fries in a place. And I hate that, but this is the best job I can get. Is there still something smaller in my life more? That might seem inconsequential, but if I made a positive change to it, I might get I might get that boulder rolling down a hill?

Ben Shabad 1:22:35
Yeah, I mean, we know one thing that people do is even even when you're in a really negative situation, identifying things that are going well for you and it sounds like that's something Scott that you do all the time for yourself which in which like I said before, I think is really really useful and valuable. So you're identifying the things even if there are a few that are going well for you in your life and and identifying where you want to go, you know, what, what do you want to accomplish? Whether it be with your work or your family or some other situation in your life and and evaluating? Are these are these realistic goals? And what are the what are the steps I need to take to get there? You know, doing doing the self exploration depending on the person can be very challenging without without somebody else there. It doesn't necessarily have to be a therapist, but you want to have a trusted individual to talk about things. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:23:35
That's a good place to leave it Ben like so you're in like, so. I don't know if you've heard like I Erica comes on a lot. She's a licensed family something I forget what else? Yeah, you know what I mean? And but she's from California, and she can only see people. It's a weird thing. Like your industry is opened up to online, but it's bordered by state. So yeah, what state are you in?

Ben Shabad 1:24:00
I'm in Illinois.

Scott Benner 1:24:01
Okay, how people? How can people find you?

Ben Shabad 1:24:04
So, right now, the best way to find me would be on psychology today. Okay. I am in the process of working on a website, which I'm finding is much more difficult than I thought it would be.

Scott Benner 1:24:15
So squarespace.com And you can do it. Yeah.

Ben Shabad 1:24:19
I have no respect for these web designers. It's not as easy as I thought it would be. But I'm in the process of working on a website. But the best way to contact me would be to find me learn more about me would be on psychology today. You just type in my last or my full name, then Shabbat sha ba D and it's got my contact information there. And so that would that would be a good place to start.

Scott Benner 1:24:45
Well, I I must have liked you because I let you say that in the recording so I had a really good time talking today. Thank you very much. I I know I talked more but if I don't like present my problems, how are you going to give context to them?

Ben Shabad 1:24:59
Yeah, Yeah, I thought this this is a great time meeting with you. I really appreciate you having me on the show. Like I said, I love your podcast and and I think it does a lot of good. So thanks a lot.

Scott Benner 1:25:10
I appreciate it very much. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon, find out more about Chico Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash juicebox. you spell that GVOKEGLUC AG o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. I'd also like to thank ag one from athletic greens and tell you about that link. Again, athletic greens.com forward slash juice box, you get your order plus five free travel packs, plus the vitamin D head over there now. And of course don't forget about touched by type one.org and T one D exchange.com. Forward slash juicebox. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you're not subscribed or following in a podcast app, I would really appreciate it if you did. Spotify, Apple podcasts, Amazon music are some of the most popular you should not be paying for a podcast app they should be free. And it really helps when you subscribe and follow and tell someone else about the show.

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