#1229 Resilience in Four Parts - 1

June 17, 2024Scott Benner

Scott and Erika break down and discuss resilience. Part 1 of 4

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends welcome to episode 1229 of the Juicebox Podcast.

On today's episode, Erica Forsythe and I will launch a brand new four part series on resilience. This is episode one, there'll be three more. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise and Always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan. If you'd like to hire Erica, she can be found at Erica forsythe.com. When you place your first order for ag one with my link, you'll get five free travel packs and a free year's supply of vitamin D. Drink ag one.com/juice box. If you'd like to help with type one diabetes research and you're a US resident who has type one diabetes, or is the caregiver of someone with type one, please go to T one D exchange.org/juicebox. and complete the survey. That's all you have to do. And you're helping you can do it right from your phone or your couch or wherever it takes about 10 minutes. T one D exchange.org/juicebox. I know that Facebook has a bad reputation. But please give the private Facebook group for the Juicebox Podcast a healthy once over Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by us med U S med.com/juice box or call 888721151 for us med is where my daughter gets her diabetes supplies from and you could to use the link or number to get your free benefit check and get started today with us met. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by ever since the ever since CGM is more convenient requiring only one sensor every six months. It offers more flexibility with its easy on Easy Off smart transmitter and allows you to take a break when needed. Ever since cgm.com/juice box this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo Penn Find out more at je voc glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. Erica I, after one of my fever dream showers sent you a text message where I was like I want to talk about resilience on the podcast. And you were excited. I was excited that you were excited. But today's the day we're going to actually pick through maybe what a series is going to look like I didn't know honestly, like I didn't know is this a conversation takes an hour or is it? You know, take a week and and I want you to kind of talk to people about the steps you took after I proposed the idea.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:59
Yes. So I think it will probably morph into a lot of different topics and themes as we discuss resilience because what I have found as kind of like when we were talking about ambivalence is that we might all have a certain kind of understanding. And we know the word we know the term, we heard a lot around the pandemic that this is you know, developing, everyone's becoming more resilient. And what I've learned is that even in the experts in the field, all the researchers, they have different ways to define and understand resilience and even how one can become more resilient. And is it innate? Is it something that everyone can develop? Is there is it a privilege? So I think it'd be really exciting and interesting conversation. Cool.

Scott Benner 3:52
I won't tell people that you said you wish you wouldn't have to see any of your clients this week. So you could just read more about resilience. I'm sure that's not a reflection on them, but your excitement about the topic. So yes, I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:03
just I found when you proposed the idea. I think I went through my own process of thinking like I knew I knew what it was. I know how I can help people and myself become more resilient. And then I realized, gosh, there's so many wonderful books and papers and research out there on it that I didn't even really understand a lot of which I will quote and reference throughout our conversation. So I am grateful for the suggestion and I am curious as to what made you think about it, the topic of resilience. As

Scott Benner 4:39
we may have talked about in the past, when the hot water hits the back of my neck, my brain seems to work better, and mind to Okay, and I feel 15 to 20 IQ points smarter in the shower than I do anywhere else. And I don't I have to be honest with you. I don't recall what happened that made me Say this out loud to myself think it through and then pose it to you, other than to say that it's interesting. Like there are times that people asked me, how did you build this podcast in a way that helps people. And you know, so it's a functional document, you know what I mean that that appears to work in a timeline. And you might think that that's been some like Machiavellian plan that I've been putting together for some time, or that I went to college about, you know, planning things, or the truth is, I just fall on my nose on this stuff. So I'm making my way through Arden's life with diabetes, which is making my way through my life with a daughter who has type one and all that comes with it. And as things I don't know, present themselves to me, and I work through them. I feel like my understanding of the world is building. And at the same time, because of the podcast, and my connection to so many people, and then the Facebook group with now 50,000 members in it, and I get to watch people have conversations and see these sort of like psychosocial things happen in real time. It just seemed to me like it was time to talk about this. So I don't really have another answer, other than to say that maybe I'm in the part of my life where I want to understand this better. You know, because do I have it be just because I grew up poorly. You know, what I mean? Like, did somebody like imbue me with it? When I was born? Like, did I get like, the God go hairs, two arms, two legs, and give him some extra resilience? Or did I just get put in situations over and over again, that required it. But those situations weren't overwhelming enough, that I was able to be resilient didn't really mean like, they didn't break me instead, like, it all seems very lucky to me, you know, the entirety of it, I think, who I am is lucky. And I think there are people who are struggling with things. And it's not because they're not resilient. And it's not because they're not smart, or don't understand the world, I just think that you get put in things in the wrong order. Or you get a little too much of something, and it overwhelms you with the wrong age or whatever, it could put you in a hole that you can't get back out of again, or at least maybe can't get back out of on your own. Anyway, I wondered if I was resilient on purpose, or by mistake, I guess, you know, those are

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:18
great all evidence, even as you are throwing out all those kinds of wonderings. A lot of the research explores all of those things, how why when? What are the risk factors? What are the predictive factor protective factors in developing resilience? And I know we even talked about this throughout all of our time together recording various episodes, your story, and I thought about that if like, how did you not break? Right? Like a lot of when you hear the concept resilience, a lot of people use the analogy of like, when a blade of grass has stepped on, it doesn't break, it might lay there for a while. But surely, it'll it'll stand back up. So like the bending instead of breaking concept, but

Scott Benner 8:02
if a mower comes along, you're not putting it back together again. And, and right, like, so. I mean, I've told a number of stories. But I've said so much on this podcast, I probably I will look back one day and think I shouldn't have told anybody that. But like, you know, I've told stories about things like, you know, being a kid and my dad wanting me to agree with him, and starting off by hitting me with his hand. And then I went to the floor to try to avoid his hand. And then he, I guess, in a desire not to bend over just kicked me instead. And while that was happening, I consciously remember thinking, I could just agree with him in this would stop. And then I thought, but he's not right now. In fairness, Erica, I don't know if he was right or not. And I don't know what the hell we were arguing about. Like, I have no remembrance of any of that. I just remember thinking I'm gonna stand my ground. That's all. And it didn't matter if I was gonna get hurt. He obviously wasn't hurting me too badly. Because I imagine as a child, I would have, I would have given in general, I mean, like it might be. So first of all, I want to say that I'm not saying that there's levels of kicking somebody, but like, you know what I mean? Like, I don't think it was hard enough that it made me go Oh, okay. Like, you know, but so I was able to kind of like stay in the game. I also remember being totaled up and thinking that my mom's not helping me. And then later, I thought, gosh, she must have been really scared if she didn't step in, like that whole thing. I didn't put it all together right away, but it was it's this one memory now. My point is, is that, did I stick up to him? Because I'm a resilient person, or did that experience make me that way? Or did the other little experiences make me that way? Along the way, and does that start right away with being adopted? Like I'm being told when you're like, I've known I'm adopted for my entire life. Like I do not know a moment I didn't I wasn't aware of it. But that's somebody telling you. Hey, you had parents who said, someone else take this You have to make your peace with that right away like somebody gave me away and yes all the other parts really nice somebody stuck up for me somebody made me there their son and I have a mother and a father and all that stuff. But man someone just gave me away. Now I know adopted people that crushes them. I didn't really care that much. Why is that? You don't mean like it's not because I can't take credit for it. That's for certain. Are you going to help me figure out why I'm well

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:29
I don't know. But I think all of your all of these points are definitely explored. Even you know, trauma as an infant, we'll talk about what when is trauma it does matter right when when you learn about or experience a trauma, even trauma that you don't even remember like when you were a newborn and and you know, adopted, how

Scott Benner 10:54
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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:49
I would suspect within neurobiology, you know, scientists who are literally studying people's brains in conjunction with their story, and in conjunction with their presenting symptoms and behaviors and their new measures that they have, that we'll talk about. Also, I feel like now we're kind of doing an intro here, like the ACE measures, the adverse childhood experiences where we'll want to talk about that a little bit. That came out about 25 years ago, but became really kind of hot, about three to five years ago. That that is I am not an expert in the neurobiology brain research fields. But from what I from what I've learned and gathered, my understanding is that they can track that based on those things I just said, Well,

Scott Benner 14:39
I mean, it seems common sense it right. Like, I don't know you've Jewish people have been through the Holocaust. And then you get a generation of fearful people who think they're gonna come and get us, you know, and then that doesn't happen but they still have that fear then that imprints on their kids, and then their kids move forward in that in that kind of nervous, like, you know, that kind of thing, like I'm not I know. Sounds like I'm generalizing but I mean, that's, I think that's pretty obvious that that impacts a lot of people. It's not everybody. I've heard people talk about the potato famine, and how you might be able to trace Irish, like people having more. What's the word when you don't feel happy? It's such a simple word. I can't believe it's fall out of my head. No. People take medications depressed, oh my god, it's late in the day. Now people are gonna be like, he couldn't remember depressed, how are you gonna listen to anything else? He said, sorry. But like, I've heard people come up with a fairly, you're a professional. So I'm just a dummy, who learned how to use this microphone. So like, this is your fault. But yeah, like the there can be depression through Irish lineage and, and that they talked about, like those years where those people just didn't have any food. Maybe it's imprinted in your wiring. But maybe also, it's just the way it makes people feel like, you know, you even talked about, like generational issues with money. You know, like, I remember, years and years ago, when the hurricane was in New Orleans very long time ago. And I had a neighbor who said to me, Well, why don't they just leave. And I said, because they have generational issues with money, they, I said, they might not be able to afford to leave. And I said to him was like, try to imagine that for the love of owning an automobile, you can't save your own life. And you know, it's not, oh, they should work harder. Or it's you grow up with the expectation that this is your life. And you see that and diabetes, by the way, from people who say, like, oh, I have the sugars, it's going to come and get me just like it comes and got my grandmother. They believe they have a path that they're already set on. And I you know, anyway, it's just it's, it's kind of fascinating. So it is yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 16:59
Yeah, well, we could come up with love different examples, like, you know, people who were raised in the after the Great Depression, or during during the Great Depression, and after lots of studies on the fear of not having enough, right, and all those things, and is that as with the question, I think that you're asking, Is that something that is learned? Is it within their genes? Is it through stories, that then you kind of absorb that? Those thoughts and feelings and symptoms? It's probably probably a little bit of everything? Is that

Scott Benner 17:29
a part of us like a psychosis that just befalls all of us? Did you know that there's very little history of people complaining of lower back pain prior to World War Two, people say that we came home and built nice houses and put lawns around them, and everybody's life got easier. And you had more time to think about yourself, I did not have that simple idea that like, you know, you weren't as focused on like, I gotta make money today, because I gotta buy food, or we're all gonna die. Good Life became easier for people. And that gave them more time to consider themselves. I mean, there's arguments being made right now in public that, and I don't know, even I don't have a stance on it. But that maybe even too much therapy could give you too much time to think too much about yourself. You know, like, that kind of an idea? Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:18
And we will, we will talk about that, too. I'm like, so I'm so excited. You go,

Scott Benner 18:23
you, you, you paste me through this? What really caught your eye? What do you think this conversation is gonna end up being about?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:30
I think today, I mean, it was we're already kind of, even in your questions, you know, you're reflecting on all the different themes that could come out of the conversation of resilience, and even, even just the concept of resilience is a natural human phenomenon. That's why, you know, some researchers say, that's why we're still alive as we evolve, because we are a resilient species. And I think if we just started off with trying to talk about resilience, I might, I might understand resilience different from you, just like, right, so we want to just understand and acknowledge that resilience, which in general, the I think the easiest definition of resilience is one of my favorites. And I will, quote Brene, Dr. Brene. Brown, as well as Dr. Bruce Perry throughout our conversations, and Oprah as well. They wrote a book recently, Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah on what happened to you. And then Brene Brown has lots of different books on on resilience and vulnerability. And she Dr. Brene. Brown defines resilience as the ability to overcome adversity. I think it's a very simple definition. But even in that is the word adversity that I want to get into later, whether it's today or another episode, because adversity will look and feel different to all of us. And so I want to define and talk about that along with trauma. The other Dr. Ann Masten, who created the resilience theory, she talks about what's in innate human capacity. So something that you were just kind of wondering, Scott is, are we We're all born with the ability to become resilient. But at what point? Is it a skill? What point? Is it something that that you've mastered? At what point do you need to work on it? That's what we want to talk about. It's it's just she really focuses on the adaptation part. When we think about resilience and positive psychology, which we'll talk about also, I wanted to define it through Dr. Ann Masten, the capacity of a system to withstand or recover from significant disturbances, whether that's trauma, adversity, that threaten its adaptive function, viability or development. So she really looks at resilience, as this kind of interruption you we have all these different systems in our body, when it's interrupted, then do you have the ability to keep functioning to even just survive and even thrive and grow through that? Strike, pause or keep going?

Scott Benner 21:03
I just wanted to add that when I think of being resilient, I don't necessarily think of it always as me overcoming the adversity, but more as just not giving up because of the adversity. So I don't have to win to be resilient. Like in my mind, correct. Yeah. I mean, yeah. And that's, that's just what that's my one thought after listening to that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:28
Yes, winning. So that's interesting. So that resilience, as I was describing, it felt like overcoming it, meaning like you, you had the adversity, you had the trauma. And then you're on the other side of

Scott Benner 21:40
it. Like there's triumph at the end. There's triumph. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I have a weird way I think about the timeline of life, like, I'm not looking to win every second of the day, right. So if a couple of days turn into a couple of bad weeks, turn into a bad month, I'm alright. Like, you know, like, my basic needs are covered, and I haven't given up in my heart and in my mind, then I'm being resilient. There's a way to be killed by the thing, a how to kill the thing, or to stay in the fight. It feels to me. And I think as long as you're in the fight, that's not bad. You know, if you can come on the other side of it eventually. I think that's obviously optimal, and what you're shooting for. But I wonder sometimes if people give up too soon, that's all because they think I've already tried. How come I haven't won? Does that make sense? Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:32
Because one of the key markers of our factors of someone who's resilient is something that you the concept, you've talked about a lot that you are perpetually hopeful, yeah, person, and the ability to, to have hope in these harder, more challenging situations. That's part of being and becoming resilient. Okay? That even when you're down and out, you you're going to keep looking, you're going to problem solve, you're going to look for other resources, you're going to look for help, you're going to ask for help.

Scott Benner 23:06
Yeah, it's interesting, too, because I can easily like, if I wanted to be bombastic, I could say I don't give up. But I could also tell you that my problems were lower middle class, white people problems. The attorney mean, like, my parents were divorced, and the guy hit me some and we didn't have any money, like, but I didn't have any money. But I still was like, sheltered. Like, we didn't have any money, but we ate like, you don't I mean, like, it wasn't, I wasn't homeless, I wasn't without food. I wasn't being molested, like, you know, me, like, there were plenty of levels of worse, under where I was standing. So it's easy for me to say I was resilient. But I don't know. If you put me in one of those other situations, I might be dead. And and maybe on my last breath, I would have told you I fought as hard as I could off. Like, I'm not saying that everybody's got the same fight, obviously. But it is interesting to watch people in a fight that you fought and won Give up. Does that make sense? Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:07
Okay. And that is because of all these other different factors about who you are. Your personality, the protective factors, the community, right, like, did you have one of the things that we will talk about also extensively? Is this the support system did you have while maybe your father wasn't a safe place for you? Perhaps did you have other places of connection where you felt like you were seen and you were your life mattered?

Scott Benner 24:38
Yeah, it's so funny. You say that because I felt very safe with my dad. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's a big, like, protective person for me. I mean, even as we're talking about, like your perspective to judge something like my perspective about my resilience based on my experience, yeah. Also, I think your perspective about getting your ass kicked by your dad in the 70s is different than trying to think about it and 2024 two, that's right, right. So my expectation, I have to be honest with you through my life was that if I didn't listen like someone was going to smack me. So I don't know that it was as shocking as it would be now as if I like just backhanded art and out of nowhere, if she said something crossed to me, like I literally like we try very hard not to say it out loud. But my wife and I later will be like, Yo, you would have got your ass kicked for that. Right? And. And I'm like, No. 100% is a lot of perspective. Like, I like the way we're moving. Don't get me wrong. But I think if we all were magically woken up in 1971, you wouldn't think as much about things as we do. Now, when we look in hindsight, if that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:44
makes sense. Yes, but I would also want to highlight that as we are looking at these childhood adversities, like through the ACE tool, they have done a lot of research noting that people who have had three or more adverse childhood experiences and that's kind of like the conflict, divorce, neglect, abuse. They've made these links to that there's a higher predictability of having chronic illness. Mental health problems, alcoholism.

Scott Benner 26:18
Yeah, yeah. All right. The podcast is sponsored today by ever since CGM ever since cgm.com/juice. Box. With ever since there's no need for frequent sensor changes, no more sensors falling off, fewer failed sensors and less skin irritations. And that means more comfort with ever since you only need one sensor insertion every six months, and there's no need for constant sensor changes, which means less hassle. There's also no need to carry extra sensors with you. So that's less stuff to worry about. And you can say goodbye to unexpected disruptions from sensors falling off or being knocked off. Because the ever since CGM is implantable and the sensor stays comfortably in place for six months. The ever sent sensor is incredibly durable. And of course that means fewer frequent, unexpected sensor errors that happen before the end of the suggested wear time. But what do you really want to know about accuracy? The ever since CGM performs exceptionally over its six month life. If you'd like more details or are interested in getting started, use my link ever since cgm.com/juice box. I'll be telling you a lot more about ever since this year, so make sure you pay attention to upcoming advertisements. There you'll learn about the implantable sensor, the smart transmitter and their mobile application. The ever since CGM lasts up to six months eliminating the hassle and discomfort of frequent sensor insertions. Simply put, it makes managing your diabetes so much easier ever since cgm.com/juicebox. The things that a person like me who's very willing to generalize about everything can sit back and go. Oh, that happened to you. I bet this is coming now. And stuff actually does come statistically. Right, huh?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:08
Yes. Yeah, we'll get into that. Yeah. Okay. Good. So and some people might see resilience as getting through making it. Some people see it as getting through overcoming and thoroughly thriving. I love the one thing that Oprah talks about in this book with Dr. Bruce Perry is there's the post traumatic stress, but then there's post traumatic wisdom, I think is really significant to if

Scott Benner 28:38
I'm not mistaken. I'm not 100% Sure. But Oprah has suffered some sexual trauma, right? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:44
Yeah. So she and she, I haven't read that their book cover to cover, but I'm planning on it as we continue to talk through this the series. She does I know, she talks about that in her book as

Scott Benner 28:55
well. Yeah. This is my remembrance from the Yes. And daytime television.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:58
Yes. And she was one of the first people really to be, you know, vulnerable in that way and make it okay to talk about so it was really significant.

Scott Benner 29:05
Yeah. Okay, good. So I'm happy. I'm excited. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:09
yes, good. So I think just one, there's this cultural piece to I think, is significant. When we talk about resilience. Michael Unger, who was part of the resilience research center defines it as the human capacity to navigate and negotiate culturally meaningful resources to sustain their well being. So when we we think about it, resilience, there's kind of these internal skills that can can grow and you can adapt. There's also really significant external source of support, whether it be through your immediate family, through community members through through other cultural factors that are significant your faith, your spirituality, your church. So I think that's important to note too. The research really focuses on and the significance of being in connection and community with people is that is a key factor of being able to be resilient. Yeah.

Scott Benner 30:07
So cultural, cultural importance is big. Yes. I also, as you were talking about that, it occurred to me that I'm adopted, I have two brothers, and a mom and a dad who are all related to each other. And they handled things very similarly, the four of them, and I was very much different, I would have different reactions to problems that would arise. Like they'd all think, like, do this. And I'd be like, that doesn't make any sense. We should be doing this. And I would say, probably not that my brothers aren't resilient. But I have literally no give up on me. Like none. Like if I murdered somebody, Erica, I would say I didn't do it right up until the very end, okay, like, as you were pulling the switch, I'd be like, it wasn't me, you're making a mistake. Right? Like, it would be my last words, you mess it up. I didn't know it. And like, I don't like I don't see barriers. I just something happens. And I pivot. Like, every time I never end. And if somebody says to me, you I go, Oh, no kill, like leg, right leg. Like, I don't sit and take that. Like, if you put something on me like that, I will gather myself and come back at you 10 times as hard as you came at me. That's a thing that on a personal level, I had to learn to modulate. Obviously, as I got older, on even like a business level, like if people would mean I do not take it. I can't tell you how many times I've said to somebody, I'd be happy to die on this hill, even though I know this hill is completely unimportant. And so like, you know, like, seriously, like I am, I am not even I'm not an aggressive person in public. But if somebody approached me, I would think to myself, Well, okay, then I guess this is what I have to die for, like, right here and now. And I have that feeling. intellectually. I have it in my business practices. I said to somebody recently in a business practices, like, if you're not happy, I'd be happy to give your money back. And they were like, no, no, what are you talking about? I was like, No, I mean, I'm like, I'm not doing this with you. But you don't own me, like, we're not doing this like this. And it would have been a significant detriment to me financially, and I did not care. Like, and that's just, I have that feeling about everything, my brothers at some point, they'll give in, like, this is as good as it's gonna be. I'm gonna stop fighting now. Like that kind of thing. My mom was exactly the same way. So anyway, I'm sorry. And so I'm hoping people hear something about their life and the conversation, which is why I'm telling so many stories. But yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:41
it's hope. It's hope, and the problem solving and the conviction. There's like a conviction and belief system there that has, who know, we don't know, because I haven't I'm not your therapist, but I also don't do brain scans. But somewhere in there, it'd be it became a core. Like those neuro pathways when they were formed as an infant, you were like, your fighter

Scott Benner 33:03
is some of the capacity. I tried to say the word IQ out loud a lot. But like, think of it more as like memory and a computer, like just computing space, right? Like it's some of it capacity is, is some of it a male, female thing sometimes, like, Do women get more protective, where men get more attacking? Like, generally speaking,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:22
I don't know about the male female data in the written resilient research I have, I can't remember. And I have to find it. I think there is a capacity kind of ability. But I don't want to say that for sure. Because I can't remember, I can't recall, I don't have my notes, but I'm gonna look for it. But it also

Scott Benner 33:41
looks different with other because like, you can, like a mother's a good example, right? Like, how many marriages end when a woman decides I can't let my child be around this anymore. Like, I'll stop being happy. I'll stop feeling fulfilled, I'll stop on the path that I wanted my life to be on to protect this kid like, mothers do those things. I don't know that men do that as much. Generally me like, it just it seems to me like men do more of like what I just talked about, like, I'm just gonna, I'll just kill everything and make it better. They generally mean like, I'll just win. And that'll be better, where women might be like, Look, there's no protected spot here. And their resilience might look like giving up when I think it's just a different kind of resilience. I actually think it's a bigger resilience, if that makes any sense. Like did like the ability to say, I'm gonna walk away from a husband that I love but is maybe just not a good father or, I don't know, uses drugs and is a bad example for my kids or something like that. I'm gonna walk away from that, like, I think that's resilient. I think some people could see that as quitting, but I can see where that's resilience to, you know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:51
yes, but and you know, I don't I will, I will stop generalizing, resistant and written generalizing gender men. Hoover's but yes, I think resilience is exactly that is defined differently as you as you kind of receive and narrate that story, right? Is that resilience is you're overcoming the adversity of whatever's happening in that marriage, or family system. But someone else might look at that and say, well, she's quitting on the marriage or quitting on the family. But she's, or he is looking at it as no, I'm overcoming this adversity, and we're gonna move on and grow in this other way.

Scott Benner 35:31
There's bravery in doing that. Right. Like, they're just there is and it could be obviously, it could be a male or a female. I just, I've talked to a lot of people. I've heard that story from three guys and from 50 women, like, you know, like, when someone reaches out to me privately and says, Hey, you know, I don't know what to do. My husband or my wife doesn't take my kids diabetes as seriously as I do. I mean, 99% of the time, that's a woman telling me that her husband doesn't take it seriously. It's very uncommon. It's it's infrequent, but it happens in the other direction. Anyway, it is an overgeneralization based on my experiences, not based on my opinion. I hope that's clear. Whatever. Yes, yes,

Unknown Speaker 36:07
I hear that. Okay. So

Scott Benner 36:09
positive psychology is that we're moving to a fell. Yeah, so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:12
we kind of understood and we will always I always want to go, we'll go back to this definition, evolution of the definition of resilience throughout. But I think just holding this kind of growing, the right kind of sustaining, surviving, and overcoming adversity, in general is kind of what I'm operating out of, but even though we, you know, that like, leaves different thoughts. So in that, I think, in around the late 1990s, early 2000s, kind of resilience was becoming more of a discussion. That's when the ACES were, I think, originally created, even though as I said, they didn't become kind of hot. Until a few years ago, the President of the APA, which is the American Psychological Association, his name is Martin sell, like, see, like, then I'm not sure if I'm saying that correctly, he kind of made this observation that for the past, you know, 50 years or so, psychology was really focused on the psychopathology of people. And you know, that through the DSM through diagnosis, creating the focus and emphasis on on psychology, was trying to heal from this past damage, right. So you're in that focus of trying to heal from your past trauma, you at the same time, he was noticing that we were neglecting and not focusing on people's strengths, their ability to overcome these hard things. It was just kind of like, let's, let's replay let's and I think there's a really important aspect to that to understand what happened to you, which informs why you're feeling a certain way today, and then heal and move forward. But it was so much focused on just the psychopathology, okay, that that's kind of what positive psychology was, the inception of that was created, which is, the definition is the study of human flourishing, and an applied approach to optimal functioning. So it's, it's also defined as the study of strengths and virtues that enable individuals, communities and organizations to thrive. And so people hear positive psychology, it's not just like, positive mindset, like be happy. There's really an emphasis on understanding someone's strengths, even as they've gone through the adversity. Yeah, focusing

Scott Benner 38:40
on what they are and what they could be, again, not what they aren't and where they're falling short, or what they've had taken from them. Yes, okay. Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:49
taken from them or not been given to. So that it is a focus on the positive emotions and experiences and virtues and strengths, which is kind of connected to some of the resilience a theme of, of understanding your, like, even even in the midst of that the university knowing like, as you've already referenced, like your ability to keep going the OP, like the hope and the positivity that you can make it through. That's kind of the focus of the positive psychology, and we can get into that now or even in further episodes.

Scott Benner 39:28
Well, let me let me just say this, I remember, I don't know how old I was. But I remember coming to the conclusion that I didn't start on level ground. And that part of my life was going to be getting back to what was equitable and fair. Like I wasn't even at my starting point yet. And I wonder how many people either a don't recognize that they were poorly parented or grew up in a bad situation and that they've been putting a hole We'll just start out, it's almost like taking two flowers and planning one in the sun and one in the shade. And just, you know, one of the shade just doesn't do as well. And but one day you realize it, you walk out into the sun and you're, you're two years behind the other flower, and you got to catch up. Like, I just remember thinking, Oh, geez, like, I have all these thoughts about the world, my head and my ideas about myself and what I want to do, but I don't just get to wander outside, go to college, and then take a vacation and start working and find my way through the world. Like I have a lot of other things to conquer, just to even get back to that space. And then once I got to that space, it was too late, like, chronologically. My wife was like, Are you gonna go to college? And I was like, no, like, we don't have time for that now. Like, it took me all this time to be a person. Like, like, now I've got it. I can't, I took one college class, I got an A. And my wife said, See, you can do it, go get a degree. And I said, No, I can do it. I don't need the degree. And I it's funny because her personality was like, Oh, my God, I didn't even know if you could do this. But you obviously can. So go do it. And I thought no, that was enough. I proved to myself, I'm good. Like, I can make my way on my own. I don't need to go to college. But the point there is, is that recognition of oh my god, some people start on a cleaner slate than I do. And I can either sit around and I guess complained about that. Or I can work to clean the slate off. So I get going. But it's tough once you start seeing how long it takes it. I mean, it was for me at least Yes. But where do you want to move to? It's only ask me what we should talk. You should tell me I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:36
think let's keep it kind of just kind of doing I think it's feeling where you can do a brief overview. And then because I I feel myself wanting to go deeper into all these things. But then we're not going to just dig into it. I just to brief overview. Yeah,

Scott Benner 41:50
so we're so so far, we've talked about what resilience is positive psychology. And we're going to just in these last 20 minutes or so we'll go over the other kind of big topics that Erica and I are going to come back around and dig deeper in in coming episodes. Yes. Okay. Sounds

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:06
good. Sounds great. Go ahead. So in our next topic, I think it would be important for us to really dig deep into understanding what is adversity and connected to that trauma. Because there's been a lot of it's very common today for us to define like we have had a traumatic background is being diagnosed with diabetes and living with diabetes, a traumatic event, I would say yes. Is it you know, is it a chronic trauma. And so I would love to spend some time understanding, Dr. Bruce Perry differentiates between capital T trauma, kind of like a one time incident versus a little T trauma and how that can become the way it's presented in your body. And then how you present externally a big T trauma. Okay. In that discussion, I think we could go further into PTSD, there's been some, a little bit of research and PTSD and chronic illness. And the I'm gonna go find the person who created that Dr. Donald Edmondson, created the enduring somatic threat model of PTSD. And I think that could be a really interesting conversation around that specifically around the diabetes. Yeah, for sure. So kind of looking at what is what is trauma and adversity? How can we understand that concept? In connecting that to PTSD and we can talk about the in chronic illness there isn't a lot of there's I could not find any research around PTSD and type one, there is some more links around PTSD and type two, but then also, conversely, chronic illness leading to PTSD.

Scott Benner 43:53
Yes, go ahead. I just was doing that math in my head, the chronic illness leading to the PTSD and then thinking of and but PTSD could also lead to some chronic illness.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:03
Correct? Because of inflammation. Yeah, there's a lot more research on that.

Scott Benner 44:08
Okay, about about inflammation and how it starts to impact your body and everything. Your morphology. Yes, yeah. Okay.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:15
Yes, in in this discussion, though, I would love for us to spend some time on the concept of of privilege, which is connected to resilience. And this is where Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah and also Brene Brown and in one of her podcast episodes, they they go into this idea that people who develop PTSD in the end they don't give anything we talk about like kind of combat PTSD, but people who develop traumatic symptoms and behaviors have a higher probability that earlier in life they experienced, what are some of the aces, right? The chaos, threat, neglect, abuse, and so because of that, there's So I want to make sure I'm explaining this clearly, when when you experience chaos or trauma, your stress response system is activated in a kind of a privileged upbringing, where stress is more kind of regulated and kind of expected, your stress response response system has time to respond and adapt, thus creating more resilience, or your ability to become resilient.

Scott Benner 45:28
Because you're not trapped in the in that initial traumatic situation. Or you might even have parents or support system who can help coach you through it or like there's a lot because privilege can mean a lot of things in this space. Right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:42
That's right, yeah. And so when I'm talking about privilege is the privilege of feeling safe and secure. And when you're a child, or an even an infant, when there's any activation of the your stress response, if it's uncontrollable, unpredictable, prolonged or extreme, the research and data shows that leads to traumatic changes in your brain and functioning, thus making it more challenging to develop the resilience. And so that's why will they talk about that? How resilience can be defined as a privilege because of because of this data and responsive to kind of pre and post trauma? It's interesting, it is,

Scott Benner 46:32
can those brain changes be reversed? Or are they are you stuck with them? Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:39
absolutely. I mean, that's where there is hope. It is harder. For example, I'll just I'll just talk about the combat. I think it's a really interesting example. They talk they talk about people who developed combat related PTSD. So like, you go to war, and everyone's exposed to the same MC I'm talking about if you're in military, yeah, you everyone's exposed to the same type of war. But the people who developed combat related PTSD have a probability of an earlier life. This is the Dr. Bruce Perry says an earlier life that's permitted with all of that chaos, threat, neglect and abuse than individuals who have that same combat exposure. Okay, who don't develop combat related PTSD. That's what the data is saying. So there is this because of this early early childhood exposure to prolonged and extreme trauma, they had a higher chance of developing the combat related PTSD, because their stress response system was already sensitized to it.

Scott Benner 47:43
Does that have anything to do with them choosing the military? Oh, I don't know. Interesting question, though. Because, I mean, I don't want to use an offensive word America, but I'm a big policy. And I there's no way I would say, I'll do that. But I've been through so much. So I can see where I mean, like, you're just being generalized. And you think, Oh, I could see maybe where people who have been through something might be, but I see both sides of it. Maybe they'd be drawn to violence, and maybe they'd be drawn to stay away from it to do you, Don't you mean, like, i That's why I ask because I wonder what it is? Or if it's different for everybody?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:18
Yes. And I think that, I love that, because that kind of goes into this, this concept of the privilege of regulation. This is Brene, brown stuff, where she talks about, can you apply that same thing to vulnerability and curiosity. And if you're feeling safe, if you have a history of feeling safe and secure, you might be be more apt to go out and be curious, and try new things. Try risky things, versus children who were raised in an environment in which they felt not safe or secure, they are often less apt to go out and be vulnerable and curious and try risky things. So that's an interesting question about Yeah, I'm sure there's research out there, but who goes into the military based on their prior experience, because

Scott Benner 49:02
I can definitely see the I can see the desire to want to say if I hit a kid, they'd be prone to violence, but I could also, I could more see, if you hit a kid, they'd want to avoid it. Like that. Or, you know, who knows? Probably no different than you hear people all the time, say, you know, you you see your parents when you're growing up, and you either decide to become them or, or fight against what they are right, like so maybe there's maybe that's just a coin flip in there. But anyway, okay. I didn't mean to get stuck on that, but okay. No,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:30
I think it's a good question. I think it's really important for us to, to kind of dig into that question, because ultimately, we're still kind of trying to talk about understand this resilience concept about how do you doesn't matter? Does your story matter? Does your history matter based on how you can become resilient right

Scott Benner 49:48
I mean, we'll talk about it more when we get to that that episode, but like what I'm hoping people are hearing I hope they're not hearing the war like example. I hope they're hearing like, am I respond? Finding something to do with my diabetes, because of something that happened to me when I was a kid, or the way I grew up around, I don't know, blah, blah, blah, that when I get to my doctor's office, and I've got my grade A one C, I listen to the podcast, and I got my grade one C, and I'm super happy and excited. And I'm confident I know what I'm doing. And the doctor says, I want you to move your agency up. I don't like this, and they'll go, okay. Like, what is that? Like? How does that happen? If someone said that to me, I don't know that I could stop from laughing at them. But more people I hear from just put their head down and do it. And like, then when I talk to them, they say, I don't know, I don't like confrontation. But maybe there's a reason for that. You know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:42
Yes, and maybe I mean, again, I wouldn't say this applies to all of the examples that you're maybe kind of summarizing, but I think maybe one of our themes could or episodes could be talking about behaviors that are adaptive, that keep you alive, as a child, is it is it people pleasing in this example, if if you are in an environment in which you have learned how to become a people pleaser, to stay alive, I'm thinking kind of in the extreme. Yeah. Or like a lot of people who've grown up in houses of addiction or abuse, many people develop that kind of sense of like, you just you kind of you know how to read the room, you're gonna predict outcomes, you know how to stay safe. And sometimes that can be people pleasing. But then, at some point in your life, that adaptive behavior that kept you alive as a kid is now becoming problematic as an adult. Yeah. And one question that I love that Oprah often talks about is, when is it time to let go of a behavior when it no longer serves you? Right? Because

Scott Benner 51:51
why not? kept you alive? Yeah. When people pleasing started, like, because like, if I was nice, then guy didn't hit me. Like, right, but now I'm an adult, and I'm getting walked all over. And by the way, it's possible. Sometimes you're being walked over by a person who doesn't know they're walking all over you. Because you're, you're people pleasing. So 1000 miles an hour, I think this is what you want. Me I'm like, she seems to like it. Like, you know what I mean? Or if she wants to go see that movie, like, you know what I mean? Like, and, and then you find out later, like, I didn't, I didn't want to do that, like you. Why didn't you say something like, you know, like that I listened. We bought a house. And years later, my wife's like, I didn't want that house. And it was like, You never said that. And we never got deeper into it than that. I was just like, Why didn't you tell me like i? i? Maybe this is it. Maybe she you know, I think back my wife grew up with alcoholic parents. Maybe she was just like, I don't want to rock the boat. You don't I mean, she's got no trouble rocking the boat. Now I just want you to know, so don't worry about it. She figured it out. boats going back and forth constantly.

Unknown Speaker 52:58
Oh, my goodness.

Scott Benner 53:03
So there's hope everybody

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:04
I don't know. I don't know, Kelly. I'm just laughing at this at the reference. Yeah,

Scott Benner 53:08
trust me. She laughed too, because she knows nothing. She didn't make anything easy for me. I like she's getting back at me maybe for the house thing. Who knows? By the way, the house is delightful. Everybody loves it. So whatever. Right? What do we move into? So that was chronic illness?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:22
So we talked about that, or kind of earlier, the the PTSD and chronic illness? We talked about referencing the ACES the adverse childhood experiences? Yep. I think it'd be important for us to talk about, and I already alluded to it in the beginning and defining resilience, but what what are the common factors of resilient people. And in that conversation, I think it's really important to talk about the community aspect. A lot of the research, as I referenced, discusses and highlights that it's all about connection. I love this quote from Dr. Perry says the best predictor of your current functioning is your current connection. And I was thinking about this in reference to diabetes, and how in the beginning and even at any point in the stage, it can feel so isolating, even though you might have a good family, a good partner, good social support, just even the act of you're the only one that really gets it. If you're the one person living with type one, or you're the caregiver. Even that in itself can be really isolating. I wanted to throw that in there would dig deeper into that. Yeah. on that. Yeah. It's great. That's fantastic. I think it's would be really important for us to at the well at any point, how does one develop resilience? Let's say you you're as you go through and we discuss all these things, and you can you connect or relate to that you have either big T or little T trauma. You understand that you maybe have had moments of resilience and I think that's also important to say like you can have different seasons in your life. where you might feel more resilient than others, it doesn't mean you didn't lose the skill. It's just based on all these other factors that are at play in your life. But I think it'd be important to talk about kind of the re the reframing of trauma, they're kind of the restructuring of how you look at that. Trauma is important, whether it's through grief and loss, kind of processing, or the restructuring, and then tips on how to develop more of that resilience, right? If you are saying kasha, but I have I have all these aces. I've had major trauma in my life I'm living with with this chronic illness. And I feel like my resilience scores are low. How do I develop resilience? So I thought we could maybe talk about it's I mean, it's, it's easy to to name a, you know, a list off of things, but I thought maybe we could hopefully get into conversate about conversation deeper.

Scott Benner 55:52
That's fantastic. So Well, listen, I mean, I'm always gonna come from this perspective that I, I just don't see, with life being such a finite thing. I don't see the virtue and giving up ever. Like deanery mean, like no matter how bad things are getting, I think you should be fighting till the end. Because if a fair enough, if you get to the end, you're like, alright, I can't do it anymore, then go ahead and lay down and die. It's fine. But don't give up a day before or a week before or five years before. Just keep stay in it. Because I mean, what else is there? It's funny when I say things like that, I mean that in such a hopeful way. And I imagine it doesn't sound like that at all. But I really do mean that in a really like kind of bountiful way, like this is life. Like it might not be what you were hoping it was gonna be. But this is it. And so there's two decisions. There's lace them up and fight and there's later on die. That's sort of it to me like, and day to day that it's going to look different. You said there'll be seasons like there are days I don't feel like fighting. Like Trust me, I've worked I go home, make that call tomorrow. But you know, I'm I'm not looking to do that today. But when push comes to shove, Scotty chefs like so like, I wish I want to get everybody into that mindset of like I can I can fight for this thing for myself. I just have too many conversations with too many people who do well. And I don't see much difference between them and the people who are struggling. And this resilience thing to me is the piece of it that's either misunderstood or inequitably doled out or something, and I'd love to learn more about it so people can listen along. So I really appreciate you doing this. It's gonna be great.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:29
Yes, yes. I look forward to it. Yeah,

Scott Benner 57:32
I know, my pleasure. How many so tell the like here in this last couple of like, how many episodes do you think this is gonna end up in?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:38
We did already kind of defining resilience and positive psychology. I think next time we can go into the trauma, what is trauma and adversity? I think resilience and privilege could be one PTSD and chronic illness. The Aces, the community connection, peace piece. What makes up resilience? Maybe like, five or six more. That was great. Thank I, but don't quote me on that.

Scott Benner 58:12
Oh, if it's more, it's more if it's less, it's fewer. Yes. Yeah. Nice, right. Yeah. Thank you. I was just trying to like, a little right there with it's fewer by the way. By the way, there's a good example, my wife beat that into my head over years. I'd say less, she'd go. You mean fewer. And I go. Okay, thank you. And then one day, I just like now I say that anyway,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:34
you learned you adapted? Oh, when I

Scott Benner 58:36
first met her, though she wouldn't have said anything. When she was younger. You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:41
she she advocated and communicated. And then you had you received and adapted? I

Scott Benner 58:46
can't wait to talk about this. Because little things even like that. It's so much about your about the grace, you want to give somebody because I could absolutely see someone saying, oh, yeah, sure. Because she was pretending to be nice while she was trying to get you to marry her, which is a common thing you hear to people. But I don't think that I just think that the way she grew up, she was prone to just kind of acquiesce sometimes. And then as we got older, and she had more experiences and blossomed, she was able to say what she meant, not what she thought somebody else was willing to, you know, tolerate from her, you know. And so anyway, I hope people listen with an open mind, because you might hear things like that, that you have a knee jerk reaction about and then listen through and think, Okay, maybe not, because it's just very simple. Eric, and you see it all the time in popular culture, for people to just people who are succeeding to look at people who aren't succeeding and go, Well, they're just not resilient. That's all, you know, back in the day, you know, you go get, go get some guy from 1940 and bring him up here and see if he feels bullied. He would you know what I mean? Like, it's too easy for people to say that. And it's too complicated for that to be the real answer. That's right. Yeah, that's how I feel. And so I want to see If we can't shine some light on it, because I think if people saw it differently, not only would they maybe make more space for others in their life, but maybe they would do it for themselves too.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:10
Yes and yes. And that's my hope is that we, as we discuss and learn about resilience together, we can we can understand that. It's not as easy as just saying, well just get more resilient and just do it because just do it.

Scott Benner 1:00:26
Her knights come in, why don't you just move? Yeah, it's not that easy. Okay,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:30
I got it. Yes. Perfect. Thank

Scott Benner 1:00:32
you so much.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:33
You're welcome. Thank you.

Scott Benner 1:00:42
A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, G voc glucagon. Find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. You spell that? G v o KEGLUC. Ag o n.com. Forward slash juicebox. A huge thank you to ever since CGM for sponsoring this episode of the podcast. Are you tired of having to change your sensor every seven to 14 days? With the ever since CGM, you just replace it once every six months via a simple in office visit. Learn more and get started today at ever since cgm.com/juicebox. Arden has been getting her diabetes supplies from us med for three years, you can as well us med.com/juice box or call 888-721-1514 My thanks to us med for sponsoring this episode and for being longtime sponsors of the Juicebox Podcast. There are links in the show notes and links at juicebox podcast.com to us Med and all of the sponsors. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, but everybody is welcome type one type two gestational loved ones. It doesn't matter to me. If you're impacted by diabetes, and you're looking for support, comfort or community check out Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes on Facebook. To learn more about Erica visit Erica forsythe.com If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that. It really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. The episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording. Wrong way recording.com