#894 A Fault In Our Thinking

April 20, 2023Scott Benner

Erika Forsyth is an LMFT who has type 1 diabetes. Scott and Erika discuss feeling at fault.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, this is episode 894 of the Juicebox Podcast

good news Erica Forsythe is back, Erica, of course a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist from California. You can learn more about her at Erica forsythe.com. Today the conversation between Eric and I begins with the idea of fault. People wanting to know why something happened, why did I get diabetes? Why did my child get diagnosed, that sort of thing. The conversation grows from there. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. If you have type one diabetes, or are the caregiver of someone with type one and a US resident, please complete the survey AT T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. This simple survey takes about 10 minutes to do and your answers move diabetes research forward T one D exchange.org Ford slash juice box go complete the survey please. And don't forget, if you want 35% off your entire order at cosy earth.com use the offer code juice box at checkout.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by ag one from athletic greens, athletic greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs. With your first purchase. All you have to do is visit my link athletic greens.com forward slash juicebox. Today's show is also sponsored by better help, you can get 10% off your first month of therapy@betterhelp.com forward slash juicebox. I was wondering if we could very specifically talk about the fault that I hear people talk about. My child has type one diabetes, and I have a thyroid thing. So it's my fault. Or my husband's aunt has RA and now my kid has blah, blah, blah. It's his fault. Or you know what I mean? Like the fault, the fault that gets addressed? It seems so it just seems like it happens to everybody. Like I don't think I've ever met a person who hasn't thought Why did this happen? Whose fault is it? And it's a strange way to think to me, but it's so common. So I wanted to ask you about it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:54
Yes, it is common. I think as parents. I think you said this a long time ago, one of our first episodes that you know when as a parent, you don't have your child and think when is my child going to get sick or when is my child going to be diagnosed with a chronic illness. So you have this mindset and hope that your child will be healthy. And then the first time the child gets injured, or the first time that your child gets sick. It's surprising and shocking. But then we also automatically as parents, I think want to find responsibility in ourselves or somebody else or something else. Because it's painful. It's shocking. It's surprising, and you're not starting out as a parent with that mindset.

Scott Benner 3:42
So I I can almost get wanting to blame somebody else. That almost makes sense to me. But why do people relish in it being their fault? That happens? Like they wanted to like, want it's the wrong word. I don't know where I'm going with this. Exactly. There are just a lot of people who want to tell you. This is my fault. But I've said it a number of different ways. I've never once heard somebody say, Oh, you have blue eyes. That's my fault. They take credit for that. Right? Like, oh, if you get the blue eyes from me, you get that cheekbone for me. You get that jawline from me. Oh, you fart after dinner. That's your mother's fault. Like, like, Why? Why? Like, why do people? Why do you think that's important to people? That's my question, I guess.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:37
Important, that's an interesting word choice. I think it might be their tendency or nature. When things feel out of control or chaotic. People sometimes have kind of an automatic default way of thinking or believing. And for some it's I'm going to blame myself I'm going to shame myself. Or I'm going to blame or shame others. But this focus on paid life feels chaotic. I feel out of control. And so my automatic This is how I function is I'm going to blame myself and fight and try and find reason, right? Like, I think people want to find an explanation. And when there is no true set, you know, explanation, it may be just their nature to place blame on themselves.

Scott Benner 5:36
So, do you think that's something that everyone has, like innately? Or do you think there are some people who would never have this conversation? Like, do you think there are some people who would never once think like, oh, Whose fault is this? They're, like, my wife, put it on herself, because there were autoimmune things on her side of the family. And I'm adopted. So of course, we don't have a ton of knowledge. So I get to pretend that there's no way any of this would be from my side of the family, which is ridiculous. But I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. I've never once cared. And I do think you, you are really getting to know me because I said important. And you were like, that's an interesting word. It's an interesting word. Because I don't understand why anybody cares. I really don't I don't know how this would like when I see people online, put so much effort into trying to find out why even the conversations forget, like, whose fault like the conversations about like, well, I need to know what happened. Right? Like, that's fat. That one's like, you know, yes. Oh, my God. Well, they got COVID. And then they got diabetes that had to have been that, okay, you still have diabetes, or maybe my daughter had hand Foot Mouth. Then she got type one. We assume that's what it was. But we weren't like Colombo, and around trying to figure it out, it just all sort of fit, you know, the amount of people I see put a lot of effort into that. Like, I need to know what happened. I don't understand that either.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:11
I think a similar analogy could be. So let's say this, there's there's milk spilled on the carpet. One parent might look at that and say, All right, who spilled the milk? Who did it? You're gonna have to come here and clean it up and fix it. But I want to who How did this happen? How did this get here? And then a different parent might say, Oh, my gosh, there's milk spilled on the rug, carpet, whatever, let's clean it up. Let's move on the we have to hurry up. Let's clean this up, move on. And so I think this is same analogy of their, you know, wondering, is it important to find out how the milk got there? Or is it more important just to clean it up and move forward? And I think that might be from your nature, from your upbringing, from your life and all the automatic thinking, it might be important to some people. And I think it would be hard to make a generalization, but I could generalize it. There are people who want to know how it got there, and people who just want to clean it up.

Scott Benner 8:10
Do you need to know so that you can ascribe fault so that you have a place to focus your anchor? Because they still don't understand what happens once you know, right? By the way, you know why I love you. I have two words written down on my whiteboard in front of me. And nothing else for this whole conversation. It says move on. Because I thought, well, this conversation when you and I get done hashing it out, we're going to need to tell people, how do you move forward from this? And then you just said it. I was like, This is why I picked Erica.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:42
Well, thank you.

Scott Benner 8:45
But But seriously, like once I know, okay, let's say I can figure it out. My daughter, I definitely took her to a ball pit at a McDonald's when she was blah, blah, blah. And she bumped into a little kid with a snotty nose that gave her hand foot and mouth. And then six weeks later, she had type one diabetes. I know that now. So So what like what do I do with that? Like, I don't know why I would mine up all that information. It doesn't get me anywhere. It doesn't change anything.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:20
So someone might say it's a more ascribing blame. So you could say, Oh, if only we didn't go to the McDonald's to that ball pit and she didn't get Hanford if only so you kind of living in the past trying to make sense of why things happened. Going back to the blame, blame and shame game that some people really struggle with and it's painful. And working out, as you said is that the emotions that you're trying to work out the anger, the sadness, the confusion, the shock. So what do you do with all of that you can let it out or Are you trying to make sense of it and say, shame on me, we went to the McDonald's and she got sick. If only we hadn't done that she wouldn't have gotten hindfoot mouth and she wouldn't have that type one, you know, that type of,

Scott Benner 10:11
I get that type of thinking, but but I don't get where they don't add the next part, which is something else just would have happened. Like, it's not it's type one diabetes. It's not a quarter on the ground that you didn't you didn't find the only one like it was coming, you know, right. By the way, I made up the whole McDonald's in the ball pit thing just I just thought of the most disgusting things I can think of in ball pits was right at the top.

Unknown Speaker 10:38
I was gonna say I hadn't heard that story

Scott Benner 10:40
before. Oh, no, no, no, I completely made that up. When you recounted it. I was like, Oh, God, she thinks I'm telling you a story from my actual life. So I don't I don't understand. Like, okay, now I know, let's say it's the kid at the ball pit. I can be mad at that. Or I can blame myself for going. I don't know where that gets us. Like, why? Why does my brain not let me want to be mad like that? I can't even when my wife's a real Ask America, this could happen. I never have a desire to be mad at her. Never. I'm not mad at my kids ever. I'm not. I don't know, like, and I grew up with people who were mad at each other constantly. And I just think I just like I saw enough of it to go, Okay, well, this is not a valuable use of time. I mean, people are going to do what they're going to do, they're going to morph and change and things are gonna happen out of your control. I don't know that being angry about any of it is valuable. Or, and I'm sure I've done things wrong. Like, I mean, I'm more than sure. I mean, I could probably sit down and make a list, right? But if I look back on my life, I think well, I've done a bunch of things wrong. Sure. But my kids are here. Everybody's warm, safe eating. What was it gonna go perfectly? Like was I never gonna make a mistake? Like, that doesn't make sense to me, either. I don't know. All these episodes are just about what I don't understand.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:07
Why think what you just said in the middle of that was somewhere along the line, you learned that holding anger or trying to place blame wasn't helping, right? It's, for some, it might feel like it's serving a function of trying going back to the control piece of trying to make sense of why things happened. And if you're trying to place blame on yourself, or others or other outside forces, it's a continuum, you're trying to figure out how could I have controlled these variables? Could I have controlled these influences environmental stressors, all these things to prevent and protect my child from getting diabetes? And so I think it's a process of letting go of that, which is really painful, that we are in control of everything.

Scott Benner 12:58
That is it right like that. If there's something about me and how I grew up, what lets me think that I am a piece of dust floating through the universe, that one day just won't exist anymore. And I'm completely okay with that. And everyone else wants her to be one not everyone else. But a lot of people want there to be big reasons for things like that, that I guess I didn't I didn't consider but I'm, I'm okay. Being Meaningless. If that if that makes any sense. Like it's okay with me. Like I even think of like, I you know, if you if you were to say, when people die, this is horrible. I'm using the basic example I can think of when people die think oh, gosh, that sad for the people who knew them. But I've never felt sad about it. Like if a person dies that I don't know, I go, Oh, what a tragedy in their sphere, right? It's meaningless to me. Like, you know, there's statistics how many people die every day? That person was one of those people. If it would have been my mom, then it's horrifying. If it's me, I guess I don't care. But I guess the people around me would know and Okay, good, right. I just don't see why. I can't make sense of why it matters. Because, oh God, am I gonna say something like, meat? I'm gonna say something deep. That's gonna sound stupid. I don't think anything matters. To some degree or another. Like, I think you just do the best you can. And you help people as much as you can. And you garner as much happiness and love out of life as possible, and then ride that as long as you can. And then that's it. Like, well, I don't know. I'm sorry. I don't know how this got here.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:49
Or what we're getting into some deeper topics, I think, perhaps, maybe generalizing out of that is, you know what, how do you find per First in your life, do you have a belief in a higher being? Do you find what is your purpose in life? And perhaps some of that line of thinking, you know, is there? Is there an afterlife? We know all of that, you know, what is my purpose in life, basically? And why am I here? And if you have that, maybe your your mindset is nothing matters, you're going to do the best you can live, love and serve, right? Others, excuse me, then it doesn't matter to you why things happen, or how things happen. You're just going to face them one moment at a time. I

Scott Benner 15:43
feel like everything's that way, though. Like you're on a step. You can't see the step above you. It doesn't mean it's not there. Right? Because you might get to it at some point. So if you asked me, you almost just did. Do I believe in a higher power? I would say no. Unless there is one. And then I definitely would, but big but for this moment. Do I think if I went up the next step, I'd see. Buddha, God, better Hari Krishna, whatever. I don't think I would. But if I did, I'd be like, Hmm, well, that's really cool. You know, and then, but I don't think it matters because I try to live my life as if they do exist. So it doesn't matter to me if they exist or don't exist, because I'm doing what I would be doing if I believed in them anyway, if that makes sense. But I also don't think I'm smart enough to think that I know. So I mean, I'll be the first one. If I shut my eyes and open them back up. And I'm standing in front of gates, I'll be like, Get out of here. This is nice. Everybody. I didn't think like I would definitely. And then I'd be like, right on like, let me see what's up like in? That'd be it like if I don't say that there's not a god. I say that if you made me choose, if you told me, Scott, you have $5,000 in the whole world? And I know the answer to this question. You have to bet your five grand I'm gonna go I haven't seen any existence of God, I'm gonna bet against it. And then if it was there, I'd say, Oh, wow, I was wrong about that. I don't I don't I'm not angry. If there is one, I think that'd be terrific. You know what I mean? Like, I just I don't see it. So I don't spend time thinking about it. And what's the point of this is that you can live like it's not there. But live like it is there at the same time. So you have the freedom of not being beholden to something like maybe what am I saying you can act right for the sake of acting right? Like, I don't think there's no rules that are making me help people with a podcast, for example, or that. I don't know, make me hold a door for somebody or all the other things that I think I do that I probably don't go noticed outside of my bubble during the day. I don't know. I'm sorry. I didn't expect to talk about this.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:01
Okay, so the what? I think we went we got here by you know, what drives you what is your purpose? And what matters. And in your, your mindset and belief system is that you're, you're doing the best you can you do. You're doing what you can each day, but you don't you're not looking backwards too much. And you're not looking forward too much. either. You're kind of just you're going moment to moment, doing the best you

Scott Benner 18:33
can and well intended. I don't have I try not to regret things. And I just think you know, have good intentions. Follow them as closely as you can, doesn't always go right. And keep moving. So if I did take Arden somewhere that got her sick, and she got diabetes when she was two, but if I just didn't go there that day, she might not have gotten until she was five. I mean, that's a lot of like assumption. You don't I mean, and so sort of probably why I brought the God thing up, like, I'm not gonna spend time making those assumptions. If they're true, that's fine. But if I get to the end, and somebody pulls out like a dossier, and they're like, Yeah, no kidding here. You did take her to the thing that got her sick and turns out had you not gone there that day. You wouldn't have happened till she was eight years old. I would be like, oh, gosh, well, that sucks. But I don't know what to do about that. You don't I mean, like everything to me, it's about what do you do next? Right. That just seems to be what life is to me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:34
Right? And so with this fault piece around? Why do parents often find fault in themselves when their child is diagnosed or gets sick or injured? I think connecting to the either the god higher power control piece Who's Who are you in control of your own destiny? Can you protect Your children from everything, and you prevent all harm. I think we can't. And as parents, it's that is what we're learning each day, you know, as our children, we let them out into the world and they fall and, you know, scratch their knee is the first moment, you're like, Oh, I can't protect my child from everything. But you weren't going to, you're not going to sit there and say, Gosh, I shouldn't have let them go to the park. But I think on this grander scale, when maybe we can connect some dots to autoimmune connection, or we can connect some, some dots on larger, you know, some traits or, you know, genetic markers. There's connection, but I think the fault piece is tricky, right? We can say, well, of course, yeah. There is some connection, some genetic markers and lineage through these auto immune issues through our, you know, grandparents and aunts and uncles. But did we control that? Did we create our own, you know, genetic markers? Well, yeah,

Scott Benner 21:02
cuz you could start getting really deep into bizarre things. Like for instance, I'm not saying I tracked my kids, but I can see where my kids phones are. So last night, I could see Arden moving at a speed that indicated she was in a car on a highway. And she's way at school. She's 14 hours by car away from here. And I did not think oh, God, what if I saw the dot stopped abruptly? And I realized Arden was in a car accident. What would I do? And I thought I would call 911 and then get on a plane. Not I shouldn't have let her go to college. You don't I mean, because the truth is, I might not make it like Eric, I might walk I might leave here when we're done fall on the stairs. And then I'm totally kill me if I thought I was there's no way I'll be able to hold up that so I fall down the stairs. Do you think my 18 year old mom's somewhere? Come on, I shouldn't let him have a family. He should if he would have gotten married and made those babies and you know, bought a place to live and then he wouldn't have stairs to fall down because we were broke. We didn't upstairs anywhere. We lived on one level or like there's that would be a ridiculous thing to do. So I just don't there's no way I would do that. If I'm just gonna come out and say something ridiculous right off. Arden died right now in a car accident. I wouldn't regret anything that happened to her. And I I try to point as much as I can to the first year of the podcast to a woman who came on her name was Lindell Haulover. And she came on because her son who had type one died in college, he got sick. And I think he fell asleep and he just died in his sleep. And his heart. I mean, it was the first year of the podcast like it was a horrible conversation. I have chills thinking about it. Now. I don't remember anybody's name. This woman has a different name. It sticks out to me like this. But during the conversation, she said I don't regret anything. Because he lived for I forget 21 Really amazing years and would I have preferred him to live three times as long? And she said yes, but not if it was that a lot if it was if we were limiting his life. And I thought and that's just sort of how I think about it, like, do the best you can today have good intentions. Hopefully you won't fall down the stairs. And if you do, you can't look backwards, right? You just gotta keep going. Hey guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors BetterHelp is offering 10% off your first month of therapy when you use my link better help.com forward slash juicebox that's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists and you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video. You can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juicebox save 10% On your first month. One of the first things I do every morning is take ag one from athletic greens. You could do this as well. You could build a foundation for better health with ag one. Use my link athletic greens.com forward slash juice box to get started today. When you do you'll also unlock an offer to receive a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs that's on top of your ag one. Come on. He wants supports immunity boosts energy helps recovery and promotes gut health. I take it because I'm afraid that my diet doesn't quite include all the vitamins and nutrients that it should and he one helps me to feel better every day. I tried a handful of other range drinks before coming to AG one. One of them I won't mention the name tasted like what I imagined feet will taste like if you made it into a drink. He one however, goes down nice and easy. And my palate is hard to get along with. So that really is saying something. He one from Athletic Greens contains less than one gram of sugar no GMOs. No nasty chemicals or artificial anything's right now it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition. It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day. That's it, no need for a million different pills or supplements to look out for your health. Of course, to make it easier athletic greens is gonna give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D, and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do to get that offer is visit my link athletic greens.com forward slash juice box once again, athletic greens.com forward slash juice box links in the show notes, links at juicebox podcast.com to AG one and all the sponsors.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 26:07
I imagine that she probably went through a grief process, though, you know, in that to get to arrive at a place to say that. And I think, you know, not looking back and placing blame on ourselves as parents or you know, as caregivers or trying to find fault that that's all part of the grieving process. So maybe you I don't know if you did that a little bit when she was diagnosed when Arden was originally diagnosed. But I know that that is really common for caregivers that I meet with, you know, gosh, what could how could we prevented it? How did we? How did we miss the signs? Or I thought this is our fault? Yeah,

Scott Benner 26:48
yeah. I thought like, I mean, I'm gonna stay at home dad, right? I thought like, what did I do that put us in this position? And then I thought, well, that's silly. And I didn't think about it anymore. But I get the idea. I do think I had a thought earlier. Where's it at right now I wish I could access it in my head. That being able to see if I can talk myself to it, being able to find the cause and point to it. It does offer relief, I guess. And it's the control piece like like Elise, that wasn't, I didn't do it. It wasn't me. But But then if I were to argue somebody out of that, I'd say well, you pick the guy or the girl that you got married to and made the baby and there was something about your juice and his juice that made a baby, they got diabetes. So turns out if you would have just gone out with the guy from 11th grade instead of the guy from 12th grade, none of this might have happened like we we can we can do that forever. Like it's just it's not valuable. And people get caught in it like, like badly and it ruins years of people's lives. And that's why I brought it up because I watch people do it every day.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:00
Yes, yes. Or they I inherit conversely, I thought I was doing everything right. living healthy eating healthy exercising, you know, keeping my mind this is for maybe the more a lot of people, people with a lot of who I work with the thing I was doing everything right? How did this happen? And so it was still trying to find yes, we're trying to find Yes, I think the relief trying to find reasons, explanations as to how something painful and sudden can happen. We just think human nature, we want to find an explanation for hard things. And part of the pain is most often we can't find clear explanations. And then that forces us to process. Am I in control? Why do bad things happen? And how am I going to face with this quote, bad thing? This hard thing? Yeah.

Scott Benner 29:00
You're not in control of anything. Like not big picture stuff. Because if you skip if you if, if you date, I don't know if you married this person, but you could have married the next one or the one before you don't know what would have happened when those two people got together. Like, you know, who knows. It's just it's it's all bad. Listen, I know it's a a, an audio medium, but my children are so much more athletic and attractive than I am that there are days that I'm like, they're definitely like the male bands. You know what I mean? Like, there's no way there's no way those are my kids. And if you would have looked at me and my wife and been like, hey, you'll probably give birth to a girl who's looks like a model and a kid who played college baseball and a bit like that's not gonna happen. And then it did, which is crazy. Think of all the famous hot people whose kids are ugly. Sorry. Like it's your See, they tried to control it. Super hot guy and marry super hot girl kid comes out homely. And you go, what else could I have done? Eric is not gonna agree with any of this. But trust me, it's a great example for our conversation. Those people who, who they tried to, they tried and it still didn't work out. You don't I mean, like, I mean, you don't know, when you're 18 years old. And you you come by and you're your girlfriend, you're picking your girlfriend up, and the mom is sitting over in the corner, and she's rubbing her hands going, my hands hurt again, you don't know, that's like I that's an autoimmune disease, get the hell out of here. Don't make a baby with this one. And lately, like, there's, you're not going to know that. And to put that on yourself afterwards. Also, I think of this for all the people who torture themselves about it. Ask them if they would, if they could go back in time and not have the baby. Would they do that? And no one says yes to that. No one ever I asked people constantly, no one ever says yes. Like not not just get rid of the diabetes. Just the person just doesn't exist anymore? And if the answer to that isn't Yes, then I don't know. I don't know what we're talking about that. Because if it's not that bad, then this is just what you got. And here we go. You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:30
it makes sense. I think what one of the myths of living in the land of if if only right, if only I had married this person, or if only we hadn't gone to McDonald's, whatever. The Myth of that thinking is that the if only did it it is going to be better than the reality you're facing now. And then that's how we, as you said, torture ourselves of thinking, If only I had gone left instead of right, then this wouldn't have happened. But if only I had gone left, then that could have happened in that could have been worse. Yeah. But we trick ourselves in thinking that it's the alternative is better.

Scott Benner 32:11
And not only that, but then it sticks you in a position. Like there's no moving along, then, like the amount of people who I've heard tell me, you know, in their 40s and 50s. Oh, I think back to when I was 18. And this is like, I don't know, people. We're not supposed to talk like this. But I think back to when I was 18. And my mom said I was fat. And I think I would kill to look like that now. Like that. That feeling. But it sticks with you the first time it says that your mom says, Oh, are you wearing that? You know, like? Or did you really you think this now you're stuck, right? And then you move forward five years and 10 pounds, you look back and you go, Oh, what was I doing? And then you move forward 20 years and 10 more pounds, you look back you oh my god, I was gonna but in the meantime, you're the one not leaving the space. And you just create these hazy patches of your life, where you're not fully being yourself busy trying to get back to the to step one all the time. Like, I don't know if that makes sense. I see the connection to it to what you just said, of just holding yourself in a spot over and over and over again, instead of getting through it or pass it around, or whatever you have to do to let it go. Because it will follow you right into your grave. And then what do you do if you close your eyes and they don't open back up again, like you all that time is wasted then, and I'm, I'm believing I'm seeing this happen with people around diabetes, type two and type one, just you know, what did I do? What did I eat? What did I say these on? You know, why did I marry this person? Like why did I just gotta let it go? I mean, it's just

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:52
Yes. And the the lies that if only I had done this or that then I would be happy or happy or right that that is a distortion a lie that we believe and it's ultimately preventing you from processing the true feelings in those moments of anger, sadness, shock, disbelief, you know, all of those initial grief, emotions post a diagnosis or any other trauma that you're experiencing. And so how do you move on, you know, going back to the, your, your way of your kind of mindset, the milk spilled on the, you know, the, the rod of okay, how do we how do we clean this up? How do we move forward? Well, we can be we can be frustrated, maybe there's going to be a stay in there. Maybe you're going to be sad and that's okay. But the and what we cover that primary emotion with the blame and shame so allowing yourself that space to the Akash I'm so disappointed that this happened I'm so angry. And I do want to find an explanation but I'm ultimately how do I get to a place of peace without having an explanation or without realizing that no one's really at fault.

Scott Benner 35:15
It's also very doable because when I was very young I I mean I wouldn't be making the same podcast I am now right like so I a different personnel and as luck may have it for this conversation this weekend, I took a small chicken and season that and put it in the oven and had a little liquid in it. And it was almost done cooking Erica when the glass pan that it was an exploded. And I have to tell you that about 25 years ago, the pan would have exploded, and I would have cursed for 20 minutes. Every bad word I could think of I would have cleaned it up while he was cursing. I would have cursed each little piece of the glass. Everything I just looked at I went that's crazy that I pulled the chicken bottle off to the side. My wife like what are you going to do that chicken I'm like, I'm going to check it for glass. I'm still eating it. I sopped up all the water and I cleaned up the oven and I cleaned up the glass and I vacuumed everything up and mopped everything up and checked the chicken. It didn't have any glass on it. I put it on a different pan, not a glass one that I shoved it back in the oven, and then I ate it later. And nothing's different in the end whether I would have yelled or screamed or been upset or thought like because I have can I tell you something? I hate that we own glass cookware. I've hated it for 20 years. I've never said anything about it. I thought it was a misstep. And it took 20 years for me to be right, Erica, but I was right. But it didn't. But there was no reason for me to say it. There was no reason for me to be upset by it. How many chickens I put in that thing? It didn't break. So I was like, Yeah, all right. Fair's fair.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:08
You didn't go around and say, Ah, ha,

Scott Benner 37:10
no, that's not what I would have said back then I would have been like mother. Chicken

why me? I just don't feel that way anymore. Like I just I don't? I don't know why. I mean, I think I outlined it loosely. While we've been talking. But yes, I mean, I grew up poorly. A lot of stuff went wrong. I had very low expectations for anything. And there's actually a part of me that thinks that helps when the chicken blew up. It did feel like it blew up on the way home and I was like, Wow. I was like, Huh, okay, like, my bar is so low. That I was just like, if I still get to eat this chicken this day still okay for me? Like, like, you know, I don't know. I don't know why we think everything's supposed to go right. And that's interesting to me like that feeling that, that no matter what, no matter what we're involved in, or who were involved with, or what the situation is that it's that it's supposed to be. I don't know that I'm supposed to be living like I'm a professional athlete on Instagram. Like, and if I'm not that everything's a mess. And I just don't I've seen it go back to. I've brought this up on here before because it was so like, impactful to me, like one of the very first professional football players whose contract was made public took him from, like, beloved person to hate it in a city that he had to leave. Because people found out he had, he was making $8 million that year. And it just it ruined people. They were like, I can't be around this anymore. Like he doesn't deserve this. Nobody deserves this much money. Like that kind of thing. Somehow along the way. It's turned into something different. We're now like, it's almost like we fetishize people, the more money we make they make the more we like to hear about it. And, and I don't know if people hear that and think, oh, that can be me one day. And that's hopeful. You know, there's that saying about the biggest, the best thing about America and the worst thing about America is that everybody believes the American dream. And I wonder that about like, Forget America for a second like life, like Does everybody have a picture of perfection they think exists, and they just have to find the way to it and then it's theirs. And then so every time every day I wake up, and I haven't ascended. It's because I made a mistake because the path is really there because the truth is the American dream is for whoever works out for it's not it's not every it's not everybody's and you didn't do it right. That's not That's not what it really means. You know, the American dream means that in America I'm putting quotes around. I don't I don't mean to get political. But nothing is supposed to stop you from a Sunday, you're supposed to have a clear path to it. It doesn't mean that the man who I saw today while I was driving down the street, who looked up at every car when yo as it drove by, he's not getting the dream. Okay, that's not happening for him. And I don't know why I don't know what has happened to him, it seemed like he might have been mentally unstable. But that's not the point. The point is, is like, there's no path for him to get to the dream. And I wonder if everybody doesn't just think it's there. They just haven't found it yet. And, and I wonder if that translates back to health? Does everybody think there? If they just did everything right? They'd be 95 years old on the news, smoking cigarettes, talking about how they've lived this long? You don't? I mean,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:56
I think there's, there might be some people who think that I think most most people have hope, even hope for, to for their dreams to come true. And so then what? And then everyone's dreams are different, but I think most people get up everyday because they have some sort of hope and purpose. Do they? Do they all realize their dreams? Know, for all the various factors and variables of life? But I think most people have hope that they might, but and then you said, do they have hope too, that their life will be perfection? And I think what what is perfection look like for each person is different is perfection, your bank account, your status, your your emotional and physical health, you know, whether what is perfection, right? But I think that sense of will free will and freedom to make those choices is one of the you know, blessings of our country. What impedes that then going back to the you know, our general question of, is it up to the control piece? Is it? Is it my own control? Is it and then is it if it is all in my control? That if then if I make a mistake, then it's my fault. Right? I think that's. So if I have this dream, and this hope to get there. But my mindset is that I it's up to me to get there than any mistake along the way. Physical, emotional, mental, or otherwise, is my fault if I'm ultimately in control. Yeah. Does that make sense? No,

Scott Benner 42:50
it does. It's just a shame that that's not obviously not the truth. That's all like it would be, it would be nice if everybody could believe that they're doing their best. And they'll they'll get up as many steps as they can. And each one is a success. And it doesn't matter if you're the guy who like who cleans the balls in the ball pit, or, you know, at the McDonald's, or if you're, you know, whatever your idea of like making it is like, it doesn't matter, it's the best for you. And that really is important, you know, like just doing the best you can for you. There's no fault there, then, I mean, I think that's what I'm saying earlier is that I don't have any expectations. Like I get up every day, I just do the best I can. I mean, I do have some basic rules, I do try to help people. I tried to I tried to treat people the way that I would like to be treated. I, well, I do treat people the way I would like to be treated. I try not to lie, then I think that's a very important distinction. Because there are times when lying is important. So like, you know, I try not to lie, I don't do it as a knee jerk reaction, like just to make things easy or anything like that. But there are moments when I'm like the nobody benefits from this. It's just going to hurt somebody I'm not going to do I'm not going to say. And that's it. But I mean, I honestly don't have any more rules than that. Just try not to lie and treat people the way you want to be treated. I mean, I would tell you about the podcast, that I never imagined I would do something for a living that would help people and pay my bills, and that I would enjoy. And that's a pretty big trifecta for me. And so I don't sit around every day thinking like, Well, what else can I squeeze out of this? Like, it just doesn't occur to me like that I wanted to reach more people. And I know that if it reached more people, I would probably make more money, you know, and I would probably then be able to do other things. But if it just stayed like this, that would be a lot actually. Like I don't know how to, like why would I think of this as a as a failure, you know, and you know, and it's interesting that financially the way business works, especially here, you see the stock market all the time. Like there's these companies who are like, they're doing fantastic. But they did a projection, they're like we projected 16%, but we only grew 14%. And their stock falls, because they're losers. And you're like, Wait, why? That doesn't make any sense. You know, and I just feels like, everybody has that. Pressure, almost like we've been commingled, like human beings and entities and ideas, we're judging everything on the same level, at this point, instead of just saying, you know, I'm a, I'm a compacted bunch of like, dust. And I'm, somehow have the ability to think a little more than other things on the planet that are made out of dust. And we're just thinking too much sometimes about things that have no answers. I know, that's sound, I think that's sometimes about therapy to like, like, sometimes I'm like, Just try not to care so much. Like it'll be it doesn't matter. You know, like, some things matter. But some things No, that's all

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:11
well and good. When the when we're trying to find reasons, or blame or fault, maybe there is, maybe there is blame or fault that should be placed in certain situations. But when we get stuck there, that becomes problematic. So even if we can point to grandma, and great grandpa in the lineage down to how our child now has type one, we have found, we have, we have sort of a loose explanation. And then we can practice grace, you know, to our ourselves and say, You know what, this is okay, I love the partner that I chose to have this child with, or, you know, however you have this child, adopted or otherwise, now we have this child and they have diabetes. And I know why or I don't know why, but I'm just going to practice grace and love on myself. And I'm going to model that for my child. And not pointing any fingers anymore at this point,

Scott Benner 47:23
the pointing fingers is it's forgiveness for forgiveness sake, without having to say something needs to be forgiven, like, so that's kind of the important part, right? It's just the thing, no matter what may or may not have happened here. I forgive it. Like, with just, that's great, right? That's just like, let's just let it go. And move forward. We'll get stuck here forever. And you know, you'll live your whole life in your kitchen with your mom saying that those pants are too tight. And you can't get past that then. Right? I kept thinking forgiveness, then you said grace. And I thought, Okay, this is right. That's great. You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:02
it's hard to do if that hasn't been modeled for you, if your mom or dad or parent figure has not modeled that, it's hard. So that's why you might find yourself as a parent now, not knowing how to do that. Can

Scott Benner 48:15
you practice on something small? And being serious? Like, could you pick something that you could just say, like, there's something in my life that I'm pissed off about? There really has no, like, I can see this has no impact on anything. And I'm just gonna let it go. Like it's they tell them what's the saying, right? You don't forgive people? For them. You do it for yourself. Yeah. Right. You unburden yourself.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:38
That's right. And that's hard. It's an oftentimes, I think, we think that it's, it's just going to happen, and it's a feeling that's going to come over us and sometimes that happens, but most often, forgiveness is a choice that you are making, and then the feeling times later to forget, I think we get we get stuck in that waiting, well I just gonna wait to like, feel like I want to forgive myself or I feel like I want to forgive him for doing that. But often we have to we have to decide. Okay, and that's hard. That's really hard to do, but it's can be done.

Scott Benner 49:14
Okay. All right. That's, that's what I'm up against that. All right, this is a good place to stop. I do want to say something at the end, though. For I get to look at you while we're doing this. And you're like, What am I like you think like I do. I know you and I don't let me get to it. You and I don't like you. And I don't think the same. Our process is the same. Like I watch you go into your head when you're talking. It's interesting. Like, I think if I forced you to keep eye contact with me, you wouldn't be as clear. Like you sort of you sort of go away into your head. And you speak out of your heart, if that makes sense or not. Yeah, and I do that too. Like so when I'm talking you see be like look away from you, right? Yeah. And I just realized that today like you do the same thing. That's Really interesting. It's, it's lovely because because I don't I never get the feeling that you are reaching into a bag of tricks and pulling out canned responses. Like you're I, I'm a lot, I talk fast. I say things that don't seem connected to each other right away, and you're actually listening to me. And I can see you keeping mental notes in your head like I can see you go say this when we go to this point when he's done talking. And then like, I'm watching. It's very impressive. I'm just very impressed. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Scott. Oh, people should people should see you for their therapy needs in what California? Hold on. Let me see if I know. California, Washington State. No, no, which one Oregon, Oregon, Utah, Utah, and Florida, Florida right now you can do those virtually? Yes. As far as Erica forsyth.com? Yes, thank you. Do you do it in video? Well, they get to see you like disappear into your head before you talk?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:03
Yes. Well, I mean, maybe they'll be looking for that.

Scott Benner 51:06
I would love it. I because I believe when I say something to you, and you respond. I don't think she's just saying what I want to hear. I don't think she's just saying what she can thinks about this topic. Like, I feel like we're having a really a real conversation. And I think that's just it's just very important. And it doesn't always happen. I interview people. I mean, you and I are different. We talk a lot, right? And but I interview people who are just there to say something. And they're just waiting for the spot in the conversation where they can get out their thought. And it's not like that with you. It's very nice. Actually.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:46
I appreciate that.

Scott Benner 51:48
Actually, what am I supposed to say when somebody? Thank you? Oh, you're welcome. I'm trying to be of off to you Oh, you think so? Every day, I'm not sure about that. I'm trying my best. And I think and I guess just to wrap it up for everybody. You know, if you can take it from me, a person who's probably spoken to 1000 people who have diabetes or love somebody with diabetes, it just this part you're stuck in is not valuable. And it's never going to lead anywhere. That you are just spinning in circles. And if it if it takes you to make something up to forgive, or to forgive a thing that you can't even put a face to, just to get past it. I think you'd have you'd have a lot more happiness, and a lot less anxiety and I mean the amount of people that just keep coming on the show that describe themselves as anxious. It's never it feels never ending sometimes. It's really, really interesting. Okay, all right. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:56
You're welcome. Thank you

Scott Benner 53:04
a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors better help, you can get 10% off your first month of therapy with my link better help.com forward slash juicebox. That's better. H e lp.com. Forward slash juice box. If you've been thinking about speaking with someone this is a great way to do it on your terms betterhelp.com forward slash juice box. You can get started today and everyday with a G one from Athletic Greens by going to athletic greens.com forward slash juice box Don't forget you're gonna get that free vitamin D and the travel packs with your first order. Athletic greens.com forward slash juice box and check out Erica at Erica forsythe.com Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast