#834 Lies, Truths and How We Feel

January 25, 2023Scott Benner

Erika Forsyth is an LMFT who has type 1 diabetes.

Reach Erika on her site, by email or at 626-344-2263

You can always listen to the Juicebox Podcast here but the cool kids use: Apple Podcasts/iOS - Spotify - Amazon Music - Google Play/Android - iHeart Radio - Radio Public, Amazon Alexa or wherever they get audio.

+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 834 of the Juicebox Podcast

guess what everybody Erica Forsythe is back. That's right, your favorite licensed marriage and family therapist is here again today. Today I start the conversation off with Erica, by asking her to talk about a sentence that I hear spoken very frequently. People love to say, I don't let diabetes get in my way. I'm not letting diabetes slow me down. I hear it all the time. And I hear it two different ways when people say it to me, and Eric and I talk through it. And then at some point, we talk about how to change things. And then it just goes down a slippery slope of my of my internal workings of my mind. So that'll be fun, you can sit in on a therapy session with me at the end. While you're listening. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Please Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you like Erica, and you'd like to hire her, and you live in California, Utah, Oregon, or Florida, she's at Erica forsyth.com.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one, head now, two touched by type one.org. And also find them on Facebook and Instagram. When you get to these locations, you're going to find an organization doing an immense amount of good for people living with type one diabetes, go see what they're all about. Touched by type one.org. The podcast is also sponsored today by my favorite blood glucose meter, that Contour Next One, and you're gonna find out way more about the Contour Next One than you ever thought possible. At contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. Okay, all right, so we're recording. Erica, before we get started, I have a growing list of things I'd like to talk to you about. And I thought maybe it would be interesting to just let you pick on the day. Okay, all right. Sounds good. Okay, so here's what I have already. You and I have already talked about. I don't know if you know this. But when I think of things, I go into this little note and I put like ideas. And so like I put it in magical thinking one day, and you and I did an episode about that mom guilt. We did that one. But since then I've put in Maslow's pyramid. Do you know that? Yeah. Okay. I put in scarcity mindset. I put I put in charitable interpretations. I put in what the principle of charity and critical thinking is. Sorry, this jumps all over the place, how to support how to support suicidal people. I want to talk about the statement that people make that says I don't let diabetes slow me down. I want to talk about how people interact with each other online. I want to talk about rebellion as like a human decision. Like what happens to a person's mind when they see like, my mom wants me to do this. So I'm going to do the opposite. I'm fascinated by that. And just life expectation, like how does it impact your life? When you paint a picture for yourself? And then it starts to deviate immediately? Because it will I also have on here how to share burdens. Like when you have a burden, how do you learn to share it with somebody. And then people diagnosed with type one as an adult, how they could find community engaged their partners for support and things like that. So that's my list so far. Do you have a choice for today? Oh,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:06
my goodness. That's an exciting, an extensive list.

Scott Benner 4:11
We got to keep you busy. You got this.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:13
I know.

Scott Benner 4:16
I said everybody, Eric about a nice microphone. So we're gonna give her a lot to do.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:21
It's exciting. It's good stuff. Goodness, where do we want to start? Do you are you do you have a leaning? I think I will tell you. Yeah. Have

Scott Benner 4:33
you started to talk about anything off this list? I'd start getting ramped up and want to talk about it. So it doesn't matter to me. But what's been on my list the longest for you? Maybe we could do it that way. I think I think the statement about not letting diabetes slow me down is really interesting to me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:54
You I was leaning towards that or how to share like the burden piece I think is a is a topic It comes up quite frequently, particularly with caregivers. So yeah, either one of those,

Scott Benner 5:04
let's start with the statement, we'll see where it goes, maybe we'll get to two of them today, or maybe the next time you come on, we'll do that. So I, I'm not gonna need any notes for this, I'm not gonna need the internet. This is all just anecdotal for me. So I'll begin by saying that when I first heard somebody say, I don't let diabetes slow me down. I thought, that's amazing. This is a person who's saying, I have this thing, but I do everything I want to do. And it doesn't get in my way, what a what a beautiful statement. And then I started interviewing more and more people. And I started to realize that for some of those people, what that statement means is, even though I have diabetes, what I do is I ignore it, and then I just do whatever I want. And in their mind, they're not letting diabetes get in their way. Does that? Does that resonate with you as a person who has played Pong?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:59
I think I think it could really go both ways. I think there's the, the avoidance kind of omitting ignore it and not let it stop me from doing what I want. And by that, you're maybe you're not actively managing it. Or there is the hyperfocus hyper management, you really, truly can do, quote, whatever you want, eat whatever you want exercise however you want. And you figured it out. And while there is parts of your life that made diabetes interferes with, for the most part, you view view, your narrative of your life is I'm living my life. And I have diabetes, but it doesn't stop me. So I think can go both ways. Right?

Scott Benner 6:40
Yeah, no. And I think that I think that broadly, and mostly, it's a great mindset, like, absolutely the way to go, like this thing is not going to stop me. But if it's stopping you ignoring it, and just trudging on, it's not the answer. You know, I I interview people every day, just this week, 12 year old, you know, when she's diagnosed, and she said it, she's like, I never let it stop me. I played this many sports in school, and I did all this. And I did that. And then the last 30 minutes of our conversation are about the injection, she's getting in her eyes, and she can't feel her feet. And, you know, like, what she meant was, I just kept going, which is admirable, by the way beyond admirable, honestly. But there's a way to, there's a way to learn about diabetes, and to corral it and work with it, so that you can really go do whatever you want. without it hurting you. While you're it's it doesn't need to be a trade off. And I don't know, like I've never heard. It's the one statement that sticks out in my head. Because no matter which side of this, this scenario, I hear people speak about it. They say it the same exact way. That's the part that fascinates me, I don't let diabetes get in my way. And that can come out of a person's mouth, who was a five to a one C, and knows how to keep their blood sugar's between 70 and 140. All day. And that same proud statement can come out of someone's mouth, who has an 11 a one C for their whole life.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:10
I was just thinking, I wonder what the difference is internally between that sense of kind of healthy pride, and maybe inter and maybe shame, right? Like, the person who is not managing and says, I don't let diabetes get in my way. I'm, I'm guessing there might be some shame, there might be some anger, disappointment I can't deal with process with this means to live with this chronic illness. And so I'm just gonna ignore it. And I'm not going to let it stop me. But I'm still but I'm ignoring it. And I you might feel awful, probably physically, emotionally. Whereas the person who's saying with pride, like I can do this, I imagined they probably feel pretty good about themselves. They've done the work, they figured it out. They have the skill set, they have the tools, they have the availability, you know, to have all the things that you need to manage well. So they're even though maybe it's coming out the same way. I'm guessing that probably internally the narrative is a little different.

Scott Benner 9:13
Yeah. So one side is is like genuine pride, and just like, wow, I can't believe I've accomplished this. And the other side might be a mask. It might be, I'm being beaten by this thing, but I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go on like, it's not happening. And then there's pride in that I imagined to which and that's not misplaced. You know, like, if you're just like, it almost, it's like you're in a movie, and you get shot. And you're like, you know, some some people are like, Go on without me. I'm gonna lay here and die. And some of the characters are like, I'm gonna do it. They pick themselves up and the dragon the bad leg. And I think I think that's how I think of it sometimes like, you're like you're injured, and you should stop and tend to yourself, and it is brave to just drag your leg on. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but it'd be better if you just stopped like, stop For a second, and figure this thing out so that you can make that statement from that place of pride instead of from a place of, I know I'm being beaten, I'm just going to, I'm just going to be tougher than this. Because eventually you can't be tougher than it at some point. And I think that's one of the problems with type one. Type two as well, honestly, is that you can, you can pretend you're doing okay for a while. Right up until you're not? You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:26
that's right. Yeah. That's right. And I think it is, it is actually prevalent. Now, you mentioned type two, it is prevalent in the type two community as well, because you, you have lived a certain way. I mean, there are obviously there are different ages of diagnosis, but for the general population who are diagnosed as adults with type two, it's hard to shift your way of thinking eating lifestyle. And it's really challenging, too. I think of actually the the gentleman you had on with type two, who and it was really hard for him to accept as it is, is there a connection between I'm not gonna let it stop me and acceptance? What is this mean to live with this diagnosis for for type one, type two, that interferes with? How do I take care of myself? Do I want to take care of myself? How do I take care of myself? And if there's all the things, lack of resources, accessibility, support, community, family, all of those things that we need to continue to thrive? Those interfere, you know, with that ability to function and accept it?

Scott Benner 11:35
I mean, honestly, type one almost, does you a favor by just stopping taking care of yourself. I mean, it really does force you to do something. And then it's that level of understanding that that dictates Is this a five, a six, a seven and eight 910? Like, what is my what is my A one, say? What's my average blood sugar? With type two, you can, can ignore it for a good long time. And it may, you may feel tired, and then of course, get accustomed to feeling tired, and then something else might happen. You get accustomed to it, and it'll hit you, you know, all at once. You know, when it's probably too late, which is the reason why I bring this up because because this is all this talk aside. It's a very human reaction to say, I'm not giving up. It's it's so laudable, you know, it's why we're all here. Probably still. I've joked before that if I was on the Mayflower we'd live somewhere east of the first river we came on. Like, I can't get over that we're done. Let's just make a house right here. But, but other people see that river and they think like, no, most people, we're going to climb over. We're gonna get into a wagon, and go from here to Oregon. Are you kidding? Like, like, as safe as the world is right? Now? If I told you to walk to Oregon, you'd be like, I'm not doing that. I said no, no, the life you that you dream of Erika, it's a 3000 mile. Yeah, you'd be like, Nah, I'm sorry. I'm gonna write where I'm at. It sounds like so that there's something about people it's, it's, it's wonderful, right? But then you put it in this exact situation. And what what starts out as and what is mostly a great trait that will get you through life turns into the thing that's, it's stabbing you in the back and you don't realize it right away? I've never heard one person say it. And not mean it. If that makes sense. I don't let diabetes slow me down. I don't let diabetes get in my way. Like they always meet it. And so I don't know, like, I'm just so what do you do? If you're listening to this? And you find yourself thinking, I feel like that I feel like nothing stops me. I accomplish everything I want. But is the guy talking? He's onto something my A once he's like 8.5? Like, how do you shift that mindset to like put that that energy that desire to like triumph? Like how do you put it into the place where where you might actually figure out how to take care of yourself better?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:10
I think the answer depends on from which lens, you know who the age is the caregiver? Is it the teenager? Often times I think if you're a teen and thinking that you have this sense of you know, they don't often don't feel like they're invincible. It's hard to think forward, you know, complications. And you're, you're kind of in the moment. And so for a teenager, it's hard. It's hard to get them to that place of understanding of how to take care of yourself. I think there's I would go underneath what what is interfering with that process of acceptance of understanding that you know what, I really do need to take care of myself. And oftentimes, I think it is maybe there isn't a connection to a Mmm, did you process the diagnosis? Are you still carrying anger, unresolved anger? Are you trying to figure out your identity as a teenager? In spite of but also connected to your diabetes? And oftentimes, I think when that I know, we I keep bringing up this acceptance. And I think that's one of the things also on your list of, you know, what does that really mean to accept it? It is a process. But part of that what it means to accept is to integrate it into your life and know that you know, there is you can't live a healthy life, but you can't you can't ignore it.

Scott Benner 15:37
Do you talk ever about optimism bias?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:44
Yes, I think that's a really good Go ahead. And just really interesting thought

Scott Benner 15:47
there's, there's part of me that wants to take the list of all the, the biases that humans have, and just lose series about them. And the problem is, I've tried a couple of times, he can never find somebody who really is like, I could really dig in on this one. You know what I mean? Like, because I want to have that conversation, but an optimism bias, just as it's defined, a cognitive bias that causes someone to believe that they themselves are less likely to experience a negative event. It is also known as an unrealistic optimism, optimism or CU, comparative optimism, optimism bias is common. Throughout people it's saying doesn't matter your nationality or ethnicity or age, that it's a common feeling. And it's what I'm talking about. It's that it's, it's me watching my father smoke three packs of cigarettes a day, and him saying, like, it's not getting me and then that's what kills him. You know, because right up until it did, he's like, I went to the doctor doctor said, I always used to feel angry about this doctor told me he can't even tell him a smoker. And I used to think he can't smell that you smell like for ashtrays rubbed on a hot days foot. Like you don't I mean, like we're right, but maybe the gut, maybe the doctor never said that. But my dad would come home and say that, like they say they can't even tell. And eventually, you know, he had congestive heart failure and he died. And so. But why is that? Like, why do we see the old lady on the news? Who lived to 100. And in our minds, we're all like, that'll be me. She meanwhile, it's so rare. They got to put her on the news. I don't know why I just don't I don't understand why. like common sense, doesn't take over and say to you, I'm not going to be that person. I don't know if I've shared this with you. But as my mom had health issues as she's gotten older over the last couple of years, I went to my wife earnestly, and I said, I'm 51. And I said, I am going to begin treating the next 15 years like they are the last 15 years I have. I was like no and then everybody right away said, Oh no, no, you're gonna Oh my God, I didn't say I was gonna die when I was 16. Right? I said, I'm gonna treat the next 15 years like they're the last ones. Because the last six years of my mom's life have not been she hasn't been at the waterpark. You know what I mean? Like, like, but we all feel that way. We're like, Oh, if I lived at in your mind, you imagine that on your 80th day when you drop dead? You're in the backyard playing croquette with a with a with a brandy. You know, I'll just hit a couple balls. Oh, and then over. Doesn't it doesn't work that way for everybody. Everybody doesn't get to be the lady on the news. And I don't know how that thinking isn't obvious and how it doesn't translate to health? Because that's all I think about when I think about my kids health. You know, like, this is it. We need to figure this out now because laters too late. And damage is happening. Like I don't know. I don't know, maybe there's something wrong with me. But that's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:46
no, I think that's because you're you're you're a realist, but you're also have an optimistic, hopeful outlook. In life. You're not a you're not a pessimist. You're not, you know, doom and gloom. But I think you're able to apply, you have that sense of hope. And you want to give your children a long, healthy life. And you're able to apply that and say, okay, but we need to be realistic with what we need to do in order to have as long of a life as possible. And I think we all have a sense of you know, optimism and hope that we are going to live a healthy long life. But what you're what we're trying to figure out is what is the difference between those who have that hope, but ignore reality, versus those who have that hope and couldn't attend to like your current immediate needs? Yeah. Right. Like we're trying to differentiate between those two. And I think the bias piece, you know, we all have certain biases and distortions that we believe. And part of you know, becoming attuned to your, your way of thinking and acting and living in your behaviors is understanding some of those, you know, biases and distortions.

Scott Benner 19:57
So is that done in therapy?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:00
Well, yes, it can be done. We can just talk

Scott Benner 20:03
somebody into right now like, like, throwing a little cold water in their face and say, I'm probably not going to be okay. 30 years from now with my nine a one say?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:13
Well, yes, I think I, as you know, I definitely appreciate the value of cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's understanding how our thoughts affect how we feel, which obviously impact what we do. And that can go it's the cognitive triangle, we can start with our actions which impact how we feel which impact how we think about ourselves, it can go at any which way. And so part of the initial work that I do with a lot of my clients is understanding what are those lies is the easiest way to call them that we believe about ourselves, or about our worlds that impact what we do and how we feel. And then and then we want to break down those that those lies or distortions and replace them with truths. Yeah, so that is something you can do yes, in therapy.

Scott Benner 20:57
I'm thinking of the things that I I know aren't true about myself that I, I lie to myself about as you were saying that I was like, Oh, I have some like,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:05
like, what do you want to share? I

Scott Benner 21:13
do today, I'm going to tell you about the Contour. Next One blood glucose meter. If you're using insulin, you need a great accurate meter, you need the Contour. Next One, I'm gonna go to the website, just type here. Contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. My voice just does that when I look forward, like anyway, when you get there, you're gonna see a lot of information. Big Buy Now button, where if you click on it, I'll click on it now. It takes you to a number of places online where you can get the contour and the test strips walmart.com, Amazon, Walgreens CVS pharmacy, Meijer, Kroger, target Rite Aid. Here's the thing. Why would you do that? Why would you just like continue to do your meter stuff the way you usually do? Because the Contour Next One may be cheaper in cash out of your pocket, then through your insurance. This is something worth checking into. Now why would you go to that trouble? Because you say to me, Scott already have a meter, I don't care. But you should care because the Contour Next One is super easy to use, and incredibly accurate. And those were important things important, important important. They are so important that I am here to tell you about it over and over and over again. So that you will go to contour next one.com Ford slash juice box and get yourself a great meter that has Second Chance test strips, so that if you don't get quite enough blood the first time, no big deal right back and you're doing it again, without wasting the strip or ruining the test accuracy, contour next.com forward slash juicebox get the meter that my daughter has been using for years. The meter that has a super bright light for nighttime viewing, and absolutely easy to read and simple screen and a design that allows you to easily carry it and hold it. This is it. I don't need to tell you more super accurate super easy to use great light. Second Chance test strips might be cheaper in cash and you're paying for insurance. I don't know what else you want. Contour next.com forward slash use Box A links in the show notes. Links at juicebox podcast.com. And I'll throw in here a little extra for good luck. Don't forget touch by type one touch by type one.org and on Facebook and Instagram. Alright, we're gonna get right back to Erica. I think I cry later in this one so bonus

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:50
like, what do you want to share?

Scott Benner 23:51
I definitely think I look taller than I am. The small one, I I've told myself that I carry my weight better than my size. Which is not true. Like that's not like I look at if I looked at myself reasonably, I'd be like, Oh, I should lose 20 pounds. But but I've taught myself that I have broad shoulders, or that like, like that. Like it's okay, because I can carry it up here. And it's visually it's okay. And it runs along the same lines. This one actually happens to be reasonably true. But the mechanism is similar. I look younger than I am. And somehow I'll talk myself into making that think I am younger than I am. But I'm not I just appear younger. If you meet me at first, and I'm and I'm you'll look at me and you'll you know, I mean beyond. He's 35 I could I could pass for 40 Right, right. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And so, and then I start talking and I'm goofy and then people shave off yours for that because they think like an adult wouldn't speak like this that's All lovely, and everything, but my knees still hurts and my back is stiff. And I, you know, I still go outside sometimes to do something and go to lift something up and think, man, you should not pick this up. Right? You know, but I feel I've talked myself into believing I'm younger than I am. That's all and even like, there are times you can. Okay, there are times.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:23
I like pause, do you want to share this?

Scott Benner 25:27
There are times that I hear things on this podcast, that somebody sharing is a negative that they've learned how to get past for instance, and I'll think, Oh, God, I do that sometimes. Yes, yes. And, and then I can picture where in my life I do it. And then I don't do anything about it. Right. But one of the things that I've, I'm disappointed with myself all the time I fixed last week. So that's exciting. It was, but it always everything else ended with me crying, but hold on a second. Oh, I'm sorry. That's okay. I, I grew up, it's not a person who makes eye contact during conversation. And I recognize that is a younger person that has younger adult, and I ignored it. And I told myself, it's okay, because when you talk to people, you're entertaining the group. You know what I mean? Like you're you're doing because I am, I can be that person in a group where I'm like, you're looking here, and you're looking there. And sometimes you just talk, you know, but I don't look people in the face. And I decided to do something about it. When I recognized one day, it's the silliest thing. But my son used the pacifier for the first couple years of his life. And then when he stopped using it, I had this horrible feeling that I had missed what His face looked like, while he was using it, if this makes sense or not. And I thought, I'm having conversations with people. And I'm not looking at them. I'm like, not seeing their face. And so I started to more constructively I say to myself, like, you have to look people in the eye. And in the beginning, it was hard. Like, I don't know, I bet Oh, my God. And then I got past that. I'm like, Okay, it's not trouble for me to look you in the face anymore. And, and that's the thing that I do now. So now, fast forward, my son gets his first real job. And we have to take him far away, to set him up for his first real job. And I get there with him on a Wednesday, and I'm going to leave on a Saturday, and we're very busy. We're buying furniture and like, getting his cable turned on and getting food and buying a pots and pans like everything. Yeah, all the adulting things. Yes, he had nothing, you know, plus, he's not sure he's gonna be there for very long. So we're trying not to, like, overload him with stuff, you know, like, you don't need seven pans like, here's a couple I think you'll be okay with. And as this time is going on, and we're spending it together, I keep thinking, I'm gonna leave in a couple of days, I'm gonna leave in four days, I'm gonna leave in three days. I'm upset. I don't want him to be upset. So I'm not going to tell him I'm upset. And finally, I thought that's not right. Like, that's not right. He needs to know how upset I am that I'm leaving him here. You know, so I said to him, I want you to know that over the next couple of days, you are going to look up at me. And it's going to seemingly be out of nowhere. And I'm going to be crying. And I was like, and it's not because I'm sad. It's this is such a great opportunity for you, you're going to do great at this. I'm not worried about you. It's nothing like that. I just and I said I could tell you that I'm going to miss you, which would be true. It was like But the core thing here and I second. It's me. I don't want to leave you here. And I think it's because my dad left me. I said I think that's why this is I feel like I'm abandoning you here. And I'm like, I know I'm not. I'm like you're going to be great. But I don't want to stand here swallowing all that. And us that just have these awkward moments together. Because you're looking at me and I'm thinking, oh my god, what are you doing? Take him home. Don't leave him here. Like don't leave him here the way somebody left you like don't do that. Plus, I'm adopted. So technically, I've been abandoned twice. So so I'm like, I'm sitting there having that thought. I'm like, I'm gonna share this with him instead. And my son is like my wife. Like they have the Irish thing going, like, you know what I mean? Like the palace is on fire. Dead bodies are falling all around you and they're like, this is gonna be fine. Yeah, doesn't matter. Let's not show like anything. But I could look at him sometimes. And he looked like he was five in his face because he was worried not about me, by the way about this whole thing. Right? And so I'm like, I'm like We're adults. And I don't want to, I don't want there to be any confusion here. I don't want him to think my dad's mad or sad or scared that I say, I'm gonna suck at this or something, I'm just gonna let them know why I might be acting strangely. So I did that. And then, and he gave me a nice hug. And we sat together for a minute. And then when I went to leave, I cried. Yeah. And he was uncomfortable. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I'll be okay. And then if you I mean, to finish this story out, like I got in the car, I had to drive away. And I screamed a couple of times, like, in a very, like, very, like, not focused primal way, I had to stop myself from like, not living outside of his door for the rest of my life, I guess. And, and I, I kept going. And I just, I did the same thing. This is gonna sound so strange, that I learned in Dr. Sardos book about back pain. I just told myself it was going to be okay. That the things that I was worried about, they weren't real. I reminded myself about the good situation he was in, and that this was going to be okay. But I'll tell you that I had to drive from his house to my daughter's, which is a different story. College. So I was in the car for three hours by myself. And about 45 minutes into it, I thought, I need to call somebody who loves me. And I called my brother and my brother and I chatted about this a little bit, and then something else, because I was making myself upset. And and you know what I mean? So anyway, what are you talking about that, but

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:43
no, but that's such a beautiful gift you gave your son, and we'll just being authentic with how you feel. I think often as parents and connecting us to diabetes in the government, we feel like many caregivers will share with me that they can't, they feel like they don't want to cry in front of their child, they don't want to make it feel like worse than it is. But I think that's okay, it gives them permission to be upset or cry. So I think you gave him the gift of like being authentic with how you're feeling in the moment. And then you, you worked your way through interrupting that those lies of that narrative that you had experienced with your father. And you were breaking that cycle. And also, replacing it with truth that it is going to be okay, this is not the lie that you are that you know, your brain is like flirting with, like, you know, this is not the truth. The truth is you love him, you've set him up for success, you're not abandoning him, and you reminded yourself of all those truths. And, and then you did something and it helps you feel better reach out to a connected, you know, to feel connected with a loved one. So you worked yourself through some of those techniques all by yourself, you did reality checking and all those things. Well, they

Scott Benner 32:55
a couple of them were just out of like, like sheer, like necessity. You're right, because as I was like you like when my wife and I didn't get pregnant on the first time on purpose. And so it was a shock. We'd been married for a couple of years, we were talking about having kids, but we did not purposely get pregnant with call. And then in the months leading up to her having the baby. We started talking about daycare, and I was the one that said I don't think I can leave the kid in daycare, it feels like it feels like we I told her back then we were so young, I said it feels like we bought a puppy to put it in the kennel. Like that's what it felt like to me. And I was like, and I was like so I said to my wife, like you should stay home with the baby. She laughed at me because I had no prospects for any kind of reasonable work. And she was doing pretty well. And then she said, you know, you should do what I think you'd be a good stay at home dad. So there's something I don't care what anybody says like I had to make a number of, of adjustments and how I was raised and how I grew up. The first one was in the first year he was alive. I realized that my wife would be doing things almost naturally, that I didn't know to do, and that I had to sort of give myself over to this if he was going to be served in a way that he needed, right. And plus I was I was cheating myself. Because I was just caregiving. And my wife was being cheated because she wasn't having this connection with my son. I was like, Well, I'm gonna at least honor all of this if I'm gonna do this. And that was kind of my first leap. But then when you do that, and you just give yourself over to it. When he like turn when you go from being a guy who was like raised to like, you know, go kill something and find a pretty girl, get her to have sex with you and then buy a car, like you know what I mean? Like go dominate things and like when you're raised like that, you know, being at home with a baby day to day. I don't know if anybody's ever done it, but it's a lot and it's monotonous and you have to find joy in it. You have to find joy and things that you can't imagine there's joy in at some point and And that just bonds you together with that kid in a way that I'm standing there now thinking, I know, he's been out of college for seven months, he needs to get the hell out of here. Like he was starting to get stir crazy, you know? And all this is good for him. And all I could think was, I think I could afford for him to live here longer. Like, why would it matter if he stayed here? Like you because the house is very still without the kids. It's a weird feeling. It's not good. And, and my wife and I seem to be doing okay with it. But as I was in his apartment, I was like, why don't I just tell him like, he doesn't want to do this. So he doesn't really want to be an adult like I could. I could throw some money around, I'll take another advertiser, and I'll keep them in my house forever, you know what I mean? Or something like that. And, and not to say that out loud was hard. But anyway, we were talking about how to break things that you don't want to do. Yeah, sorry. That's all. Yes, I'm sorry.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:58
No, it's a good. I think you modeled a lot through all that you shared?

Scott Benner 36:04
Does any of that help people who are lying to themselves about why they're okay with their current situation? I hope it does.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:13
I. Well, I think you you model that, you know, that? Is it? Is it healthy to, to listen to the lie? No, no. And to you, you have done the work, you know, I don't know if you've been in therapy, or you've done it yourself, or you've read books, but you are, you are learning and applying how to interrupt those lies. And that that pattern thinking that you were exposed to as a child

Scott Benner 36:40
in the in the car and the drive. Before I call my brother. It was fascinating. By the way, I mean, I did a tiny bit of therapy for like a year when I was in my 20s. Other than that I haven't read, I'm embarrassed about how few books I've read. As a matter of fact, once when I was on a book tour for my book, my publisher said stop telling people you don't read. But but I'm in the car, and I'm like, It's okay. And I'm calm, and I'm okay. And then in no time at all. If he I just if I were to just think of him, then it burns like up through your chest through your neck into your head. And it's a it's not a voice like a voice in your head. But you start thinking like, no, that's not right. I'm leaving him there. At one point i i solidly imagined that I had just left him in a box. You know what I mean? Like, I just I driven to another state put my son in a box and I left is how it kind of felt to me. And, and then I'm like, okay, don't think that and don't think that for your own sanity, and for and for his happiness. Because he this is the game, right? Like, you make a baby, you put it in a situation and then you don't go, yeah, it's unfair. To me, my wife, and I, these little bastards have abandoned us again, it's fine. But um, but it's the right thing, you know. And so I don't know, like I did later. It's because of this podcast, because it's talking to so many people keep kind of running through ideas in your head. And I thought to myself, there were a number of times in that car, that there was a dark path in front of me that if I didn't avoid it, I could see how people run down them and get lost. Do you know what I mean? And then that made me feel badly for people who, who get drawn down those paths. I felt lucky to not have that happen to me, honestly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:46
So yeah, you were able to interrupt the that spiral, right? The spiral, thinking of that life feels like it's over, it's not worth living. And you were able to find something within yourself like, okay, that now's the time, I need to reach out to somebody, and that's hard for people to do. Yeah, it's when they're, when they're really in that low place of that really low depressed thinking, and they, you know, kind of spiraled down to do what you did. It can be really challenging for people. And you also, it kind of feels like you know, grounding, you grounded yourself to the present moment. Whether you're in the car, you're going up to paying attention to what you're doing. And that's something that people can do when they're in the middle of that spiral. And feeling like there's no hope to ground yourself to the present. Maybe it's looking at three, there's nothing all sorts of techniques. You can Google them for grounding techniques. But looking at you're looking at three things that you can see two things that you can touch one thing that you can hear it there, it doesn't really matter which way you go, but like bringing yourself to the present moment to interrupt that spiral can be helpful.

Scott Benner 39:56
I'll tell you where it helped the next day so to give a little other context, through odd circumstances, my son had to be in a part of, I think I'm supposed to say Arden's in Chicago and college. She's she choked ones out of the pocket. She's like, if people are just telling him in Chicago, she's not. Okay. So basically, my son needed to be across the country, in the same state that my daughter was in, but three and a half hours from each other in this state. And they had to leave on the same day, and they had to start either class or their job on the same day. So I had to, I had to leave him that night to drive the three and a half hours to where my wife was with my daughter so that we could drive home, right. And it's a 14 hour drive home. And so I get to her, she's in a hotel with my wife. And I'm like, you know, I don't know, when I get there. Maybe midnight because I kept hanging on. I was supposed to go have dinner with my daughter, and I just, I couldn't leave my son. And I was like, I can't I can't I texted Kelly, I'm like, I can't make myself leave. You know, like, I'm trying, you know, and so I missed dinner, which then I felt bad about that. And but I'm sure they all sat around and joke that dad's crying right now he can't come to dinner, which would have been right. And so I get, I get to the, to the hotel, my wife's already in bed, it's late. And I lay down. And, and she's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I did the wrong thing. Like, I'm like, I just I was like, I did the wrong thing. And then I get really emotional. Like, I'm, it's, I come in and I'm okay with it now, and I'm still upset right now. Right? Like, so. I'm like I did, she's like, No, you did. And I was like, No, I did, I left in there. That was like, I was like, you know, like, I shouldn't have done and, and so I got through that. Okay. And then the reason I'm sharing that with us, because the next day when I said goodbye to Arden after lunch, she's like, it's okay, if you want to cry. I'm like, I'm okay. Like, and she did. She was like, what? Were the tears, like, when you're the guy that cries lets me know, I'm gonna be missed. Like, when is this happening? Mom's over there, like an Irish statue, like getting ready to go. Like, like, you know, where are you? And I just said, I told her, I was like, she's like, you're gonna cry. I'm like, I'm not like, this is a good spot for you. I'm like, It's okay. You know, and I'm like, I'm really upset that I'm not gonna see you, but I don't think I'm gonna cry. And she was like, All right, like, seen her like, she was like, a little let down. She's like me. So she was, I don't know, she was joking with me. And I got a little teary. And I said, I am really going to miss you. And, you know, we'll be back to visit in a few months. And I left and we got out in the hallway. And Kelly's like, You didn't cry. And I was like, I think I figured it out last night, you know. So anyway, I don't know why I'm I just really to bring this back around. If you are saying I don't let diabetes slow me down. Because your variability is good, and you don't get low, when you're out playing soccer, or you figured out how to eat, I don't know, cheese fries without spiking for three hours, then then diabetes isn't slowing you down. And that's amazing. But if you were one of the people that I've spoken to who said diabetes isn't slowing me down. And there's a lot more to that sentence that you're not sharing, I hope that you can find a way to push through that stuff and, and get to a place where you really are, you know, it's a word people dance around all the time. And I don't understand why they do. People try not to say control around diabetes, but I mean, I'd like for you to get into a better decision making tree so that you have outcomes, you know what I mean? That are more reliable?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:52
Yes, well, I I appreciate your vulnerability and sharing that your story with your precious children. I think the the mindset of diabetes isn't going to stop me that can also be like a family culture mindset, that maybe as expressed at diagnosis, because they want to instill hope that this you know, you can still play the sports and you can still do all the things that you can eat the cake, and you can get married and have babies if you're, you know, want to and can. I think that that mindset, it can be healthy, but it also can prevent the space for the emotional processing, which, you know, you die diabetes is not going to stop me but Batang I'm really sad and angry. Why did I get this? And if there's no space for that expression of frustration, then maybe you just adopt the diabetes isn't going to stop me I can't I can't let it stop me. And but I still have all these other feelings. And I don't really know how to control it. Yeah. So I think what start off maybe as a really positive, hopeful mindset of your family system, it can maybe wreak havoc on how you process it as a child or teen or young adult or a grown adult. And interfere with Yeah, how to actually manage control, that your sugars,

Scott Benner 45:20
I think it also matters as you're talking like it. In my mind, I'm imagining it matters who you are to me, because there are certain people who hear that, and they were always going to be the people, it wasn't going to get in the way off, right. Like, there were certain people who were just going to be like, didn't matter what happened to them, they were going to like pop out of it, you know, right, with a 2% body fat with a shine on them. look amazing. This is going my way. Like they're just there's some people who just that works for them. I wonder if I wonder if it's not a blanket statement that's given at the beginning. And if you don't know that when it's happening, like what happens when someone says, Don't worry, this isn't going to get in your way, when you know about yourself, you are the kind of person who falls down rabbit holes and things get in your way, then it just probably feels like a lie. It probably feels empty. Like when like when my wife sometimes like when my son was looking for a job, anything he applied for she'd like, you'd be good at that. And she's like, Mom, I have not said one thing yet that you were like, no, don't do that. You know, she's like, you're my mom, this is what you're gonna say. My wife later said to me later, yeah, my wife later said to me, there was something he applied for. I was like, Oh, that would not be good for him. But but she didn't. She didn't tell him right. But I wonder like, we are who we are. And a platitude, which is really what this is. Right? Don't worry. Plenty of people. First let's list some famous people. We know Westside who have type one diabetes, you didn't know that this guy had it and Bobby Clark, for the flyers like, Wait, you're bringing up 70s hockey, like, okay, you know, like, um, it didn't stop him and blah, blah, blah. And, and I think that's meant that way. But I think some people hear that now that I've spoken to more people have more of a depressed mindset, they're probably like, they probably hear that and think, oh, it's gonna get me, you know, like, I'm not going to be the one. And then the person who gives you the platitude is like, Oh, I did my job, I told him, it's not going to stop them. And then the people who aren't stopped by it, we're never going to be stopped by it to begin with. It's like me taking credit for being able to work through this complicated thing that might have fell somebody else like I can't take credit for that's just how my brain works. Like, my easily my brain could work a different way. And I could have driven my car into a tree, you know, like, and just been like, Everything's over. So Erica, every time we get down to these conversations, I realize there's no way

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:53
sorry. No, it's it's it's complicated, right? It's it's your mindset. It's your family upbringing, your culture, you're up? I know, we've talked about this a lot about like, you know, what is it for your resilience? And what does that actually mean? How is that nature versus nurture all of those things? But I think yeah, being mindful of is it a platitude, and how is that landing for whoever you're sharing that with? is really important to remember? Yeah,

Scott Benner 48:24
I mean, if you're a health care provider, or you're the parent, or a loved one of somebody who has been diagnosed that you can't just run around being like, don't worry. And there are also people who you can't pile on them, like, Oh, my God, there's a lot to worry about here, like, equally as bad for that person. And who's who, in that scenario, and by the way, most people most of y'all listening, you don't even know who you are, in that scenario you think you do. But you're often not the person you think you are. You know, like sometimes it's you think, Oh, I can handle this. But I mean, I've talked to plenty of people who get caught up in almost like OCD, like rituals about keeping their kids safe. And, you know, they say things that are, I mean, one of the things we'll talk about in another episode is how, like, you see online, somebody says something, and then they get attacked. And if you really look at it, you realize the person attacking them is trying to quell a fear in their own mind. And like, See, you're, you know, you're not always who you think you are. I'm not who I think I am. You know, like, so. It's interesting. It's we're

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:25
all Yeah, we're all on a journey of becoming more self aware. But just to be aware, that you're not self aware is the first step. Perhaps.

Scott Benner 49:36
This is completely inappropriate. So I won't say that. Well, now I'm going to say because I thought I used it when I was younger. And somebody would be like, what's with that person? I'd say, Listen, crazy. People don't know they're crazy. You got to cut them a break. You know, and now I've come to realize like, none of us really know ourselves that well. And, you know, it's just, you're trying to figure it out as you go like when it hit Me, I was like, Oh, I'm upset because I feel abandoned. I was like, that's why I don't want to do to my son the worst thing that's ever happened to me, even though that is not what's happening right now. It was, you know, fascinating. So But that's so

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:17
profound that you were able to make that connection. I am feeling this way because I was treated this way. But this is not what's happening now. I mean, that those two sentences, I don't know how you got there. But that's, that's pretty profound and hard to do. For many people.

Scott Benner 50:34
Well, it was self preservation because I thought my heart was going to explode. And I, and I don't, I'm not prone to like panic attacks. So I wasn't there was going to be no outlet for it. Like, I felt like I was going to explode. You know, so it's, it's just, I don't know, like, I just thought like, I've got to figure out what this is. Or I'm gonna, like, I felt like I was gonna die. Like I like there's I know, I wasn't going to but it felt like that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:03
Well, that's what people say, who feel like they're having a panic attack is that they feel like they're going to die, then truly, they believe it and they feel it. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 51:10
didn't get to that part. I was just like, I was like, I've got to like figure this out. Like I, I did my best to step out of myself.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:19
Had you had well, I was gonna ask more questions about that. But I was gonna ask, have you had those connections, those thoughts before? Like, this is why I feel this way because of abandonment.

Scott Benner 51:32
No, that was the first time that was,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:34
yeah. Oh, wow. I

Scott Benner 51:36
was like, Oh, this is because my dad left. And I was like, okay, like, and they I mean, the adopted thing is like, I joke about it a lot here. I really don't think about whatever. But if I start thinking about my dad leaving, it's not lost on me that he's the second father that that apparently was okay with being like, Hilliard. And because that is, and then I look back on leaving my son at college. And maybe I'm lying. The first time I left my son at college. I found myself wondering how my dad could have left me. Like, it didn't I didn't put it together. Yeah, I asked the question of myself. Like, if this is what it felt like to leave my son somewhere safe. That was good for him. How could my dad have left but I quickly transitioned into He must really not care about me. Like, because if he felt this way, how could he have gone? And done it? Yeah, right. Right. And so but I never got past that. And that was four years ago. So this was the first time I've thought about it since then. And it was because it was more. It's finite. Like for all of you have young kids, like the college thing hurts, but then they come back like a bunch of times a year. And or they'll play a sport or you'll go there or something like that, you actually end up seeing each other more frequently than you think as long as it's not like great distance away. But this thing, I thought, like, he could be good at this. They could offer him a different position. He might never come back here. Like and like, he might never, like he might never live in my house again. And I know some people are like, I don't know how everybody feels about their kids. I like my children. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I like them being here, they bring something to the conversation. It makes me I'm gonna tell you one more thing. So the other night, I cook for people. I don't know what that says about me. I don't love food myself. But I like cooking for other people. And I make cookies every once in a while. And sometimes nobody even eats them. And I don't care. I love making them for people. Like I see like my kid pill cookie out. I'm like, This is great. Like, you know, it feels good. So we have these boxes of and when your kids leave, they always forget something. So we have the like forgotten boxes that have to be ups to people. And I said to my wife, I'm like, I'm going to make some cookies, and I'm going to put them in the boxes. My son stuff, my daughter stuff. And my son's girlfriend who left the hair straightener here apparently is my job to send to her. But I'm like, I'm gonna give her some cookies to write. So. So the other night, I got my work done. And I thought I'm going to make the cookies now. And I made them and as I was halfway through it, I felt bereft. And my wife's like, are you okay? And I just go, it doesn't feel the same. And she's like, what? And I was like, making the cookies doesn't feel the same. And I was like, I don't know why it's hollow. And I'm, I'm so annoyed. I just want to throw them away. was like I don't care that I'm sending them to them. I don't care that they're going to get them I don't care if the like them. Like there. I couldn't there's one for you. I can't figure that one out yet. Like I'll get to it, but it felt weird. And I didn't like it is the best thing I can tell you. So anyway, he

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:02
feels that feels like growing up. It's grief you're grieving. You know, I stay horrible. Yes. Painful. I

Scott Benner 55:09
did eat the cookie slider just so you know. I sent them some but I was like, right, but a couple. Anyway, do you think people listen to this and think wow, Scott's found a way to trick this woman into giving him free therapy?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:25
I don't know. I haven't had you sign a consent form?

Scott Benner 55:32
I have not. Did this conversation do justice to the the idea of that I brought up in the beginning. I don't know, what was the idea? I don't want diabetes slow me down.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:45
I'm getting. Yeah, God. Gosh, I mean, perhaps we probably could even do a part b i feel like dissecting it further if we wanted, but I think we it was a good conversation. Yeah,

Scott Benner 55:58
I just I listened to, it's gonna feel weird that I shift gears like this so quickly, because I was legitimately just crying a little while ago. But um, I think about this podcast, the way I think about my kids. And the way I think about everything, like I, as I'm bringing up stories about myself, they are absolutely true stories, but in my mind, they're gonna move this conversation and the people listening in a certain direction. So I am a tiny bit Machiavellian about it, which is bizarre, because I'm an idiot, Erica, but this, I'm good at this. I'll get past the fact that I can't add or subtract, but this thing I might be pretty good at. So I just, I really feel very strongly about it. Like, like that statement. Every time someone says it. It's like a bell rings in my head. I was like, somebody needs to do something about that. Like, like, you know, people can't live their whole life celebrating, that they're ignoring their body deteriorating, but at least they went to Burning Man. Like I like the only mean, like, because that is how it feels to me when it said sometimes. And it's not, it doesn't need to be that way. You know, like me, if you're strong enough to ignore high blood sugars, and all the horrible things that come with it to go do the things that you really want to do, then dammit, you're strong enough to figure out how to get your blood sugar lower to begin with, you know, I don't know. And I just feel like, I feel like that there's a conversation somewhere that will spark somebody into doing that thing. And if I've got to lay my soul out so that you people take better care of yourself, then that's what I'm going to do. Because obviously, at the end of this year from now, Eric is going to tell me that I'm making this podcast to take care of myself, because I feel like nobody took care of me or something like heavy like, you know, like on the last day, I'm gonna be leading in the microphone we like. Go on. Alright, that sounds right. Is there in the last minute just to tease it out for the next episode? There there's something about how I grew up that leads me to want to help other people, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:06
Oh, absolutely. Yeah, you have a helper helper mentality. Yeah. You want to pay it forward in a way that maybe you didn't receive as a child? I would nothing wrong with that. No, I

Scott Benner 58:17
don't know. I think I'd prefer to have the guy at the club mentality. Like, those people look like they're having a great time. So it gets Friday night, a little high there dancing. I've never done that in my life. I'm busy making sure people have cookies.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 58:33
Well, I think I wanted to add to Scott that I think the people who are maybe saying, you know, the diabetes isn't getting in the way. I think they ultimately want to, they want to though they want or they want to know how to manage their diabetes. And so what is that? That's the fascinating piece of like, what is blocking that? Because I think they don't, they don't want to ignore it because they ultimately know what's happening to their body.

Scott Benner 59:01
Oh, I truly believe that. I don't think that I've ever spoken to anyone who doesn't care. Yeah, never, never once they have varying degrees of success. They have varying degrees of guilt, they have great degrees of stress. But in the end, it's that thing you said once got out about, about the about burning out. And that it's that the hardest part is that you're trying so hard, over and over and over again and you're not getting a result like that. That's the That's what burnout is like. It's not the end when you give up. It's it's the part where you're like I don't have the right tools. Like somebody gave you a screwdriver to like nail the put a nail and you get up every day and spend 24 hours trying to make that screwdriver and a hammer doesn't work you know and Yes. Anyway, I that's how that's how it strikes me is that I've never once talked to somebody with diabetes who I thought oh, they don't care. I've never thought that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:00
Right, right. Yeah. And I don't think you do either. I think it's just that that's where the empathy pieces of like, I know, I know they want to change. And, you know, I hope that they are able to find that what is that piece that's preventing them from getting to that place of acceptance?

Scott Benner 1:00:18
It's hard. But Well, I appreciate you doing this, I hope. I hope everybody appreciates me giving myself up like this to hope. Because I guess there's, I'm in the middle. I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, why? Because a lot of people are gonna hear this. And I'm just like, I'm like, I'm crying in the cards, screaming and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, all right. Well,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:41
I don't think people talk about you know, the emptiness stage very much. So I think you probably normalized a lot of people's experience in a really healthy way.

Scott Benner 1:00:51
Listen, I'm gonna tell you something. The hardest thing I did in the last week was turn my wife down when she was like, we could have another baby. And I was like, Ooh, no. That's not okay. That kid would end up really poorly raised in school for this now, it's, I at first thought that it was the past of time that I, I was upset about, and there is some of that, like, I just like, at one point, my son's like, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't think my life would go by this quickly. You know, and, and I just like, I'm like, I always knew we were going to get here. I just don't understand how it's happening. Yes, yeah. That's all because I can like, I can see him in my head at like, different stages of his life. And it was like, how did we get past that so quickly? Like, get away? How did uh, it's just the weirdest thing about time a day takes forever, a week takes forever a month goes by and you know, and you're like, oh, it's New Year's Eve again. Like, but how's that possible? Because every day felt like it took forever, you know?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:55
Anyway, I'm gonna you're encouraging me. I'm gonna go be very present and focused with my children today. Appreciate where they are sure that

Scott Benner 1:02:03
bother. Thank you. Good. 15 minutes. You're very welcome. Well, a huge thanks to Erica for coming on the show again and sharing her insights with us. Don't forget Erica forsyth.com is where you can find her. And I have it here somewhere. If you live in California, Utah, Oregon, and Florida, you can use Erica. And she's adding more states all the time. So keep checking back at Erica forsyth.com. I'd like to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. Why am I thanking a blood glucose meter you say? Well for sponsoring the Juicebox Podcast and for being amazing. Contour next one.com forward slash juice box get yourself an accurate, reliable and easy to carry meter.

Hey, if you enjoyed this, you should check out the private Facebook group for Juicebox Podcast. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. And there are over 33,000 members in there. People just like you talking about using insulin, and all of the things that go with that. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you're looking for more episodes with Erica, go to juicebox podcast.com. Scroll to the top in the menu and check that mental wellness series. You'll find a whole bunch of stuff there with Erica. Though, though, that was two very clunky sentences, but I don't have it in me to re record them. So juicebox podcast.com mental wellness more stuff with Erica, head on over again. Thanks for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode.