#752 If It Pleases the Court

Anonymous Female guest has type 1 diabetes and good story.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
You're listening to Episode 752 of the Juicebox Podcast

Guest is with me today she is an adult living with type one diabetes. And we're going to cover a multitude of things, including her road from a one season attends to the sixes, and everything that got her from where she started to where she is. Now. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you have the time, and by the time I mean fewer than 10 minutes, please go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox and fill out the survey. All you have to be as a US resident who has type one diabetes, or is the caregiver of someone with type one. Your simple answers to simple questions will help people living with type one diabetes, they'll support the podcast and they may even help you t one D exchange.org Ford slash juice box

this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Omni pod five, learn more and get started today at Omni pod.com forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored by Arden's blood glucose meter. The Contour Next One, and you can learn about that little gem at contour next one.com forward slash juicebox Are you nervous? You okay?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:55
I was nervous and I bless nervous now.

Scott Benner 1:58
When were you nervous?

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:00
Oh, I was driving in to I'm it's I'm calling you from school. And so I had my commute to like, what am I gonna say? What am I not gonna say? And so, you know, I did 45 minutes of anxiety. And now we're here.

Scott Benner 2:16
You shouldn't have told me that because though. But anyway, go ahead and introduce yourself and then we'll kick on.

Anonymous Female Speaker 2:20
We'll go from there. Cool. So I'm, I have been diabetic. I was doing the math this morning for 20 years. And I am currently in law school.

Scott Benner 2:37
That's fancy. I'll tell you something. This weekend, we took our son on a trip to visit a college. And I think I think this is going to be the one she wants to go to. So we're sitting with it's funny, the counselor but I just looked at her and thought salesperson, this is the salesperson for the right. And I was like I've never seen a counselor this pretty before in my entire life. I'm being marketed to you know, not that she didn't know what she was talking about. She just looked like a runway model, which struck me as strange. And not that runway models don't need jobs.

Anonymous Female Speaker 3:14
I got to do something after you know the walking down the

Scott Benner 3:18
parks over right. Yeah, so anyway, lovely person, not the point. And she asks Arden, if you don't get in here, what else do you think you might do? And Arden had already been accepted to the school. So are in school. I've already been accepted here. Excuse me, I'm dying. Give me a second attention lady looked down at your paper. And what kind of sales job is this? You don't even know what you're trying to sell them. But anyway, she says to Arden, like, you know, what else might you do? And Arden goes, I think if I didn't do this, and by the way, it's fashion design. Arden because I probably be pre law.

Anonymous Female Speaker 3:57
I love it. I love it. The Kids Are All Right.

Scott Benner 4:01
Just like I was like, wow, I didn't have enough confidence to think I could do one thing when I was 17. And she's like, I don't know, I might do something way over here or way over there doesn't matter.

Anonymous Female Speaker 4:11
That's how I ended up in law school at 33 is I didn't have the competence to do it when I was artists. Ah, no kidding.

Scott Benner 4:18
What did you What did you go into college for?

Anonymous Female Speaker 4:21
I did college for international relations. And then mostly because I wanted to travel. And I thought I could help solve problems elsewhere. Then I became a teacher. And then I was a community organizer for about 10 years before law school.

Scott Benner 4:39
Oh, so you decided not to be president? Because I thought that was a presidency. No.

Anonymous Female Speaker 4:44
I like they haven't been letting ladies be presidents lately. lately.

Scott Benner 4:48
Not yet. My husband

Anonymous Female Speaker 4:51
wouldn't either. This has been farmed out.

Scott Benner 4:55
He's not looking to be on camera. I'll tell you what, though. They've done a really good job of discipline. hearing what's his name? Isn't that crazy? Oh, my goodness. He's been the first vice president, man. Like, I don't even know what that is for.

Anonymous Female Speaker 5:09
Oh, I was like, What guy? We

Scott Benner 5:12
don't know.

Anonymous Female Speaker 5:14
His name is Doug.

Scott Benner 5:15
His name is Doug. So you're telling me that Kamala Harris, his husband's name is Doug. Yes. That's what I'm telling you and what hold on and what is it Kamala? It's Kamala, right. Yeah. Kamala Kamala, I'm doing that wrong, too. We'll see. No, don't be sorry. My point is, is that if this I'm Doug emhoff. How crazy is that? You? Did you know that? You just need a dog? No, I

Anonymous Female Speaker 5:43
knew it was stuck. Mm hmm. I am a nerd.

Scott Benner 5:45
I'm trying not to show me. You were trying to post nice. See, I was trying to make the point that it wouldn't matter. Nobody would know who your husband was. Anyway, if you were doing that, but turns out you would know so

Anonymous Female Speaker 5:57
he's more likable than I am. They would all love him. Your heart of the Chest. Chest into Pete Buda, Judge.

Scott Benner 6:06
Husband sort of jasmine, we, I'm confused. Your husband's more likable than you are. Yes. How was that possible? You seem delightful.

Anonymous Female Speaker 6:16
He's a botanist. And so while I talk about politics and why the world is broken, he talks about trees likable.

Scott Benner 6:25
So he's just giving people less to think about so it's easier to be around him.

Anonymous Female Speaker 6:30
He makes a good cocktail. It's good.

Scott Benner 6:33
It's a good egg. Has he ever looked at a tree longingly in a way that made you uncomfortable? Um, I can't say no. Excellent. Okay. All right. How old were you when you're diagnosed with type one?

Anonymous Female Speaker 6:48
I was in ninth grade? I don't know. Maybe 13. Okay. So, the story there? Yeah. 20 years. So the story is, I was in junior high, they do it differently in Arizona. And I had to go to the bathroom constantly. I was so thirsty. I was like running between classes. And I went to my parents. I said, there is something wrong with me. I don't know what it is. Or there's something wrong with me. And my parents were like, you're growing, you're changing, like things are fine. It you know, bodies are weird. And I was like, no, no, there's something amiss. And they were like, nah. Um, and this went on for probably three months or so before we took a road trip, the classic road trip story, from Phoenix to Denver to see some family. And it was like every gas station on the road, like maybe not even gas stations, just like wherever we could find that we had to stop for me and my parents were like, there's something wrong with you. And I was like, I've been telling you that is that is true. Yes.

Scott Benner 7:56
Your parents not therapists or kindergarten teachers, obviously. Right? Right.

Anonymous Female Speaker 8:03
And so we went home, we did the whole vacation, and then went home. And at home, my uncle is diabetic. And so we tested. And I was like 501. And my parents were like, That's problematic. And so even then, like, we didn't rush to the ER unnecessarily, it was like, I'll call the doctor and see what they say. And the doctor tried to put us off for like, a week and a half. I was and then I asked my mom, did you tell her that the blood sugar was 501. And she was like, well now. And I was like, call her back and tell her that information. And then shoot, they were like, You have to come in immediately. And so somebody that I had been living with then so like Surly and overly confident. 13 year old became an emergency. Despite the fact that I was like, No, I've whatever this is, it's been here for three months.

Scott Benner 8:57
Yeah. How long have you been the adult in the relationship between you and your parents?

Anonymous Female Speaker 9:03
Maybe the whole time? No, I my parents are great, but like their child rearing philosophy was sort of like if we just treat you like an adult then like, you'll be an adult and it will be great. And for the most part, like I cooperated with that philosophy. I had straight A's I my like, weird rebellion was going to church like my parents were more like this is this is lovely. And so they were I think they were totally unprepared for something like diabetes to happen.

Scott Benner 9:35
Margie, do you think she'll use heroin? No, I think she's gonna go to church. That's great. So you so your parents, your parents were not very religious. So the way you rebelled against them was going to church?

Anonymous Female Speaker 9:46
Yes, my parents met each other on a blind date went home together that night. Then three nights later, moved all my mom's stuff into my dad's apartment and have been together Ever since. And so they they're just a little wild.

Scott Benner 10:04
Wow. They hooked up like lesbians. That's fast. Yeah. You have you ever been naked in front of your husband with the lights

Anonymous Female Speaker 10:12
on? SCOTT I can I can say yes to that question. Oh,

Scott Benner 10:23
there you go. I just love that as a child, you were like, I need to push back against these people. I'm gonna find religion. Did you find religion? Are you just going to church for a little while? I would

Anonymous Female Speaker 10:34
say I found religion. And then I do better. Yeah, well, I gave back religion. I don't know that I gave back God. But I gave back religion. I was like this. This was meant to control women. And I'm not that into

Scott Benner 10:47
it. Oh, you didn't like what you found. But you like the idea.

Anonymous Female Speaker 10:51
I like the idea of community. I like the idea of faith. I like the idea that there are things we can't explain. And I didn't like the patriarchal structure and this idea that, you know, yeah, there was there's a lot of things about church that didn't sit right with me.

Scott Benner 11:11
By the way. I don't know if this is narcissism, but I think I could explain almost anything, if you ask me. I think I'm not sure if I'd be right or not. But I come up with an explanation.

Anonymous Female Speaker 11:21
You and every law student? Oh, really?

Scott Benner 11:23
Is that how they work? Do you ever heard me talk about on the podcast that my eighth grade guidance counselor tried to get me to be an attorney?

Anonymous Female Speaker 11:31
I haven't heard you talk about it. I've considered it. And I think you would hate it. Because for sure, arguing arguing is great. But like the way that the law works is that whatever was decided before must be the basis for what happens next. And you'd be like, Well, what the why that that? I have a more elegant solution. Like why?

Scott Benner 11:54
No, I even knew back then when he said it. I was like, I think you're misunderstanding who I am fundamentally. But I mean, I think I could probably functionally do it, if that's what you're asking me, but I don't think I would want to. And if you've anybody who's ever heard if you've ever been in a business meeting with me, because this podcast is actually a business, and, you know, like I have to meet with people and have like real like adult conversations about how things get said and ads, for example, or, you know, you know, talking about money about paying for ads, stuff like that. And so I get into these very oddly, corporate settings, where people who are dressed very nicely, are sit sat up very properly in front of me, and I just, I don't talk any differently in those meetings that I do on this blog.

Anonymous Female Speaker 12:45
I think that's low key, the rebellion, I'm here for honestly,

Scott Benner 12:49
I'll come downstairs after a call. And my wife will say, actually, I'll just tell you an actual story. So I'm very friendly with the person who, who initially bought ads on the show for on the pod, but that person does not work from the pod anymore. They're actually out of the diabetes space completely. And I contacted them. And I was like, Hey, listen, I'm about to have a meeting with Medtronic about in pen. And I think they're going to come on as advertisers for NPN. And, you know, I don't I forgot what the question was the question I had for really, it's not important. What's important is at the end of the conversation, she said, Hey, in your first call, try to keep it to under three font. And I was like, I was like, that's your, that's your she goes, yeah, she's like, you know, you're gonna curse. And I was like, right. She's like, just don't do it too much right away until they know you. And I was like, Okay, so my, so the call finishes, my wife has no idea about this conversation I had with my friend, I get off the call, and I come downstairs and my wife goes, How many times did you curse on the call? And I was like, okay, half a dozen, but I kept the ducks to under three. And my wife said, I don't understand how you do business with people. I was like, I think it's the same as the podcast. I was like, it's, you know, we just talk like real people. And if it doesn't work out for me, I kind of don't care. You know, so I tell people all the time, I'm like, Look, you know, if we're going to do business together, you should no, this is me, like, this is how this is gonna go, if that makes you uncomfortable. You want to jump, you know, so

Anonymous Female Speaker 14:23
well. And so in my training as a community organizer, you will learn that a way to get people to share things with you is to be vulnerable with them. And so I find that like, sort of the engineered, swearing, etc. Just being who I am in a space often creates like better connection and relationship with people and so even if it isn't like the right norm for the space, I think that the vulnerability like transcends what you're supposed to do. And also, if I if I wrote a memoir that had to be titled in less than six words, it would Be my mom's favorite word is. So you're gonna get the fuck either way,

Scott Benner 15:06
when I'm gonna tell you a story, and I'm gonna keep the word out of it, but when we were young, like really young, 1920 years old, we were in a diner and I was philosophizing with my friends. And I said that I think there's a way to say anything to people, and have them accept it. Like, you know, by that I mean, not brushed up against it. And I was trying to make a bigger point about language and eye contact and communication and stuff like that. And so one of my stupid friends said, like, you couldn't say anything to anybody. And she's, and this guy says, I'm totally have to bleep this out. And also, I'm going to apologize to you ahead of time, but for context, he said, You can't use the word of the waitress without offending her. And I was like, I betcha I could. And I don't know. I don't know what made me say that. But I did say to him, I'm gonna need three tries at this because we bet money, you know, and I was pretty sure it wasn't gonna go right the first time, but it still didn't dissuade me. And I didn't say it directly to her. It's not like I identified her that way or addressed her I tried to work it into it did not go well, the first time. But we had to leave a really big tip. So probably all the money I eventually want on the bed I lost on. Like, as I was like, we're really sorry. But I did figure it out, I did figure out a way to talk to people in a way that, like nowadays, they people talk about, it's like you meet people where they are. Yeah, and there's part of that, that I believe is true. But there's a big piece of it that I believe is true, that you just said is about, like, if I'm not hiding anything, then I'm not a threat to you, in any way. Right? Like, I mean, you guys don't know me. Like, you know, empirically, but you know me pretty well. Like I'm not hiding any big things about me. And then, to me, that's the pathway to talk to people about diabetes, and have it be relatable and something you can actually absorb. But we should probably talk about your diabetes a little bit. No, I,

Anonymous Female Speaker 17:07
I was just gonna say that, I think that had something like the podcast. And specifically, like your approach to the podcast existed when I was 13. I think in particular, my dad's entry point might have been totally different. But my so in my diagnosis, story, fasting, fast forwarding to the ER, the doctor is in a panic, I am not in a panic, I am fighting this doctors nonsense to be nonsense. And that will be the theme of how I approach doctors moving forward in my diabetic life. But they they rush us from one side of town to the other side of town, to get us with in with the very best Endo. And he he says a lot of things, but he quickly shuffles us into a room with a diabetic educator, who was not speaking to my family and to me in the in a way that felt like they were being taken seriously. She was sort of trying to go really slow and explain it in a really elementary way. And no, my parents are wild, they are also very smart. And so they started to feel sort of tucked down to about diabetes. And I would say like, within 10 minutes, my dad had left the room, found out how much we were being charged per hour for this experience, came back in and said, Lady, you got 15 minutes, wrap it up. And so then we left and like that was the extent of my diabetic education. Um, yeah, so it, I just think things would have gone differently. But there wasn't, there wasn't an internet, there wasn't podcasts. And there certainly wasn't anyone talking about diabetes in a way that was like, relatable or tangible or approachable.

Scott Benner 19:02
Yeah, I will say that, um, it's always been, I really, I want to make sure that I preface this by saying like, I'm not coming down on anybody. For certain because a lot of good has been done for people over the years, by a lot of people. But when I launched my blog, it was pretty early on in blogging, and it none of this high mindedness about how to help people was in my head. Like, I was really just trying to draw attention to diabetes. And I thought, while I'm not a doctor, like I can't really help, like, I wonder if I can help this way. But I noticed pretty quickly and maybe it was just a function of the fact that it was new or that technology didn't exist the way it does now. But but people who talk to other people about diabetes mainly did what I call like, like raw nerve blogging, you don't I mean, like, they're like, this is how I feel. And then other people would run up and be like, I feel like this too, and they'd be like, we feel like this together. And then that was the end of it. And I always just thought like you're not gonna To help each other, you just gotta, like, look each other in the face and go, Hey, this sucks, right? Like, how does that, like, why don't we try to make it not suck? Like, wouldn't that be interesting, you know?

Anonymous Female Speaker 20:11
Well, and the timing of my diabetes was such that I was diagnosed, sort of, in the nascent stage of the internet. And then as I was coming of age and trying to figure it out, there was that sort of diabetic community that you're describing. And I was 0% interested in that, because I was like, No, I want the solution to my problems. I really don't want to dwell on having diabetes, I don't even like having diabetes, I just want a solution. And so I disconnected from any sort of, like information source, I would say, and so I've heard you sometimes talk about diabetics is like, this diabetic, or this is the sort of person that should get it. And I would classify myself as someone who like should have gotten diabetes, and understood it. But I didn't, I spent like, probably the first 12 or 15 years of, of my diabetes career. No, it's not a career. But of my diagnosis, being relatively uncontrolled, I saw the endo regularly, I took my Lantis every day and my my endo was cranky, my Lantis because he could tell that I wasn't doing anything else. But as a teenager, it was like, I have these four data points in the day, and I don't know what to do with them. I don't know how insulin works, really. And so I have these four data points that just say I'm bad at this. And there's nothing else in my life that I'm really extraordinarily bad at. So I'm just not going to do it. And I did that for probably close to 15 years. And I'd have like moments of like, I really want to be good at this. I'm gonna like make this chart and like do a week of testing. But I couldn't get past the end, like this probably won't make a lot of sense to people who, you know, enter diabetes with a Dexcom. Now, but it really was a different era and diabetes, when you had, you know, these four test strips that you were supposed to somehow figure out what was happening. And I just like couldn't do it. And, like, I'm not the sort of person that that meets obstacles and like, walks away from them. But I did walk away from diabetes for a long time.

Scott Benner 22:43
At some point on your diabetes journey, a person gave you a blood glucose meter. Did they say to you, hey, this is a great blood glucose meter, it's one of the most accurate ones that they ever made. No, no, no one said that. Did they say, by the way, there are other blood glucose meters, you might want to look into it. I'm just gonna give you this one because I haven't here in the drawer. Nope, they don't say that either. They just gave it to you. And you thought, Well, this must be my blood glucose meter, because the doctor gave it to me. But there are many meters. And they're not all made equally. You deserve an accurate, well made and easy to use blood glucose meter, you deserve the Contour. Next One. The Contour. Next One is my favorite blood glucose meter. I know that's a strange thing to say. But we've used a number of them over the years. And this one is my favorite. Why? Bright light for use at night, the screen super easy to read. It's manageable. And by that I mean it's a good size. It's not too big. It's not too small. And I love the way it fits in my hand. It's sort of because of the shape which you'll see it contour next.com forward slash juicebox almost feels like you're holding up like a pen in your hand. I don't know how to put it exactly. You'll see when you get to the website. But the Contour Next One blood glucose meter is incredibly accurate. But you might be worried Scott all this accuracy. Is it more expensive? Am I going to be paying a bunch more money? I don't think so. Actually, if you go to contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. You can actually buy it right now at a number of online venues. Walmart, Amazon, Walgreens, CVS, the list goes on and on target Rite Aid. And so when you get to my link, check it out. Because you might be able to save time and money buying contour next products from the convenience of your home. What am I saying? Well, I'm saying that it's possible that this meter and the test strips could be cheaper in cash than you're paying right now through your insurance company for an inferior product are crazy is that you owe it to yourself to be using the best equipment that you can and there's no reason not to check out the Contour Next One blood glucose is meter contour next.com forward slash juice box the Omni pod five automated insulin delivery system is available now and waiting for you at Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. Omni pod five is the only tubeless automated insulin delivery system that integrates with the Dexcom G six CGM, and it uses smart adjust technology to automatically adjust your insulin delivery every five minutes, helping to protect against highs and lows without multiple daily injections. Omni pod five is also available through your pharmacy, which means you can get started without the four year Durable Medical Equipment contract that comes with most insulin pumps, even when you're currently in warranty with another system. To get started today, go to Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Now for those of you who aren't in the market for an automated system, but still want an insulin pump, and love the idea of tubeless you're looking for the Omni pod dash, head over to my link Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. While you're there, you'll be able to learn everything you need to know about the Omni pod five, and the Omni pod Dash. And you can also find out if you're eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash. My daughter Arden has been wearing the Omni pod since she was four years old, and she just turned 18 That is 14 years of wearing an omni pod every day. And it has been nothing but a friend in this journey with insulin. Because the Omni pod is tubeless you can wear it while you're showering, swimming, or participating in your favorite physical activity, it's a big deal to not have to disconnect from a tube pump to do those things. Head over now to Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box to find out if you're eligible for that free 30 day trial, the dash to learn more about the dash, or to learn more about the Omni pod five, get started today on the pod five full safety and risk information as well as a list of compatible phones and clinical trial claims data are available at my link. And at that same link omnipod.com forward slash juice box. You can also find terms and conditions for that on the pod dash 30 day trial.

mean how many times do you have to be faced with the idea that you have a problem in front of you, you don't functionally understand or have actual tools for I mean, how much of your life you're supposed to spend beating your head against that wall like it does help me understand your explanation helps me understand. When I hear adults say like, Well, I'm just trying to live without this getting in my way. You know,

Anonymous Female Speaker 27:51
and it was relatively successful. Like I was going to college I was I had a job. Like, it was fine. It wasn't great. I was tired all the time. And you know, but it was fine. And so I definitely understand the adult like I'm just trying to live my life. Yeah,

Scott Benner 28:10
I have to clear my throat I apologize one second.

I'm sorry. It's Brian here. me complaining, like I'm not in control of my home. Like it's drying here. put somebody on that I'm the person. By the way, if something happens, I'm gonna fix it also, lets everybody pause for a second and appreciate what a mind we have here with. She used nascent in the sentence didn't stop to think about it. I didn't notice that she was like, Oh, I'm not sure if I'm using nascent correctly. Just whipped it right out like it was a part of our everyday life. Good for you fancy.

Anonymous Female Speaker 28:54
Lucky I don't hang up the phone. Right. Why I

Scott Benner 28:56
thought it was great. I love it. There are times there are times I swallow big words because I'm like, not that nice and to pick word. It's just not a common anyway, not the point. So you are managing along. I'm guessing your parents put it on you right because they thought you're up for the challenge I bet.

Anonymous Female Speaker 29:16
Well, yeah, I think they thought I was up for the challenge. I certainly told them that I was up for the challenge. I told the doctor the night I was diagnosed that I would not be staying in the hospital that I had plans to go to the movies. And I ended up going to the movies that night so I wasn't the sort of kid that was going to be easily dissuaded. And I don't think they thought they had any other tools that I didn't have. And I think they'd never experienced a disease that like it wasn't just like take the pill and you'll be fine. Like I don't know that they fully understood the complexity of diabetes and the need to calibrate and the the ways that my body was going to change over time it I think they sort of thought, if you take your insulin when the doctor tells you then that, yeah, this is all fine.

Scott Benner 30:07
Yeah. And so isn't it great? How you're just like, I've got this, I'm not even staying here. I don't need any of this. And then for the next 15 years, you're like, Am I really a pain.

Anonymous Female Speaker 30:19
And I was wracked with guilt. I was like, I'm very bad at this. I would go to the doctor, like, once a year to get my I was still taking my long acting, I would go once a year, I would find new endocrinologist whenever I moved, so that I could get that prescription refilled, I wanted to be good at it. I wanted to be taking care of my self, and I like just couldn't do it. And I felt like it was like a personal moral failing that somehow I couldn't do this thing that it seemed like everyone else was doing. There wasn't this outcry that diabetes was this like, impossible disease, such that I was aware of. So I felt really bad about it for a long time, which like was more feelings that kept me from doing anything about it, because I was like, Oh, I feel bad when I think about that. So I

Scott Benner 31:10
won't talk about it. Right? Let me ask you a question. Like, your outcomes, like a one sees where they wildly high.

Anonymous Female Speaker 31:18
Usually 10s ish,

Scott Benner 31:21
okay. And nobody pushed back doctors, parents, nobody's like, Hey, we're doing the wrong thing here. Like, let's help her.

Anonymous Female Speaker 31:31
So I think that my Endo, my first endo was like, she's obviously not doing what she should be doing. I'm just gonna keep increasing her Lantis so that at least I could get some insulin. That's that and some coverage. And she's not reporting crazy lows. So I can just keep amping that up, up and up and up. And then I was steadfast, I will not get a pump, I do not want to pump. The the, the I had like a thing about, I didn't want to think on my body, how was I going to wear a bikini how was I going to wear a prom dress like it. And there was no adults to say, it doesn't really matter what you want. This is your health. And so I just sort of got away with it. And then, you know, and also sort of the luck of the draw. And so when I was in college, The End Note that I saw, I think he must have mostly seen type two diabetics because his recommendations to me were that I needed to eat the same meal at every, every day at the same time. And to start with oatmeal to start my day was like, none of that. None of that was right. And so I grew distrustful of doctors and just was like, this is something that I'm just gonna, yeah, it's just gonna be impossible.

Scott Benner 33:02
So was it your thought that you're a bright person? Was it your thought that I'm going to die sooner than I should? Did you ever consider that?

Anonymous Female Speaker 33:10
I knew that I would have complications. And I was concerned about it. But I didn't know really the contours. I think if somebody had told me, You're gonna have injections in your eye, I might have tried to do something

Scott Benner 33:23
harder, or that some of those complications might involve, you know, your heart thing. Yeah, well, and even

Anonymous Female Speaker 33:31
even just saying, like your kidneys or your feet or whatever. I don't think anybody like made it clear to be like, what that life would look like it was just like, be afraid that you these things might happen. And it wasn't tangible enough to feel like it ever really couldn't happen. It's sort of felt like I had gotten diabetes. That was a pretty hand. And so it was unlikely that I would then get these other terrible things as far as I was.

Scott Benner 33:58
Oh, you had that like a meteor already hit me thing. Yeah.

Anonymous Female Speaker 34:04
And, and, like, compounded with the idea that I was already trying. I had tried it I had tried to do the right thing. And it wasn't working. So what you know, the definition of insanity, right? Like,

Scott Benner 34:22
do you just have any, like big psychological impacts on you aside of your health, like, were you? I mean, do you feel like you grew up in a way that was less healthy than then it could have been in your mind?

Anonymous Female Speaker 34:38
I think that I learned hyper independence at a young age. And I think that it made me hesitant to connect with people and less like dependent on people that I in my 30 certainly have been trying to like unlearn. But I also think that those same things led to a lot of my success. And so it's hard to say like, this was on that, like, on that, excuse me, and that negative when, like, you know, I'm in law school on a scholarship, like these things wouldn't happen unless I had learned, really, at a young age, how to take care of the things I needed to take care

Scott Benner 35:21
of. So interesting hearing you talk like that, because you basically just argued both sides of your issue, and both sides seem kind of positive, you're like, you were like, I learned to be very independent, which is a bad thing, because I'm guessing the rest of that sentence was I don't let people in and don't let people help me. And then the but the other side of it is I'm having success. Because, you know, enough, I gotta stop me. Like I say it a different way. When I tell people like, right, I always say like, if the zombies come you come find me because I'll be okay, when this is over. But the but the rest of that sentence is because my father was pretty horrible. And I know how to live through horrible, you know, and it's not it, and would you give one back for the other like, would die. Like, you know, if my parents were like, warden June Cleaver, which I'm pretty sure as a reference, literally no one's gonna get at this point. But I was all like, soft and, you know, couldn't stick up for myself, like, what I'd make that trade or, you know, what I trade, uh, you know what I would, I'm okay with a couple of backhands at a 10 years old for saying the wrong thing. And God knows, I don't remember what the wrong thing was anymore. But but, you know, like, is part of that valuable in one way? Not valuable in another way? Look, it sounds like I'm arguing for child abuse. But I'm not. I'm trying to say, I mean, what's the saying? Tough. Something about pressure and diamonds. Right? You know, yeah.

Anonymous Female Speaker 36:55
Right. When you, you know, just makes diamonds or whatever?

Scott Benner 36:59
Or is that just a bowl thing that somebody made up to try to feel better about the fact that their father was throwing them into a wall? Like you don't I mean, like, I don't know. But anyway, it's interesting.

Anonymous Female Speaker 37:10
Well, and to be clear, my my parents were both like lovely and supportive and showed up at every dive meet and gymnastics meet and tennis, whatever. orchestra concert, you name it, they were there. I just think that they weren't ever able to wrap their heads around diabetes in that particular way. But I take your point about, you know, how those things then shaped who you are, because the way that I handled the way that I handled diabetes for so long, I was able to do because I was resourceful. Like, I think I would have maybe found some people to like, shake it out of me or intervene. But I was never I've never been hospitalized for diabetes, highs or lows. I've never, you know, had any really scary episode. Well, there is a scary episode that we should probably talk about, but never anything that made someone say that your life is off the rails, I was always able to say, oh, there's a Snapple stand, I'll just grab a juice or Oh, like, my, when I was a teenager, we were hiking in the Grand Canyon. And I happen to not have anything but the guy that would later be my husband was like, Oh, I have these weird, like cyclist. Jelly packs that we use for energy at will those work. And so I was always able to like, find a way because that hyper independence had given me the skills to be really good at figuring out any particular complicated situation. i But yeah,

Scott Benner 38:48
I've been pretty fascinated lately. And I'm watching people like, contradict themselves, like guy, I just put up an episode today, actually, that was recorded probably six months ago, with these two kids were in grad school together. And I was kind of focused in that episode about how the guy kept saying, you know, I didn't let diabetes hold my hold me back. But of course, his health outcomes were not good. But right in his mind, it didn't hold him back. And then the other part so he had had diabetes for a very long time. The other person in the in the episode Tori, she was more newly diagnosed came up through the podcast. And I asked her I was like Tory, does diabetes hold you back? And she said, No, I was like, but Tories they wouldn't see us lower and more stable. So it is a function a little bit of how you come up with it, the technology and the ideas that were available as you were coming up. I apologize. And and at the same time, you know, everyone does the same thing. It's always like, Oh, my parents were great. But they weren't but they were like, like there's a weird like dichotomy in there, right? Like your parents weren't like absentee people, and they weren't like disinterested, they just didn't have enough information to take it seriously. And you're even saying, the understanding of long term complications where just a person standing in front of you go on your feet, your kidneys, you're gonna pee blood, like you don't even like just nothing. Nothing tangible that you could be, you could wrap your head around, and it probably seems so far out in the future like it was never going to happen. My example that always is that people smoke all the time, and everyone thinks they're the ones that it won't get me. I'm okay. Gonna go. It's gonna give everyone else lung cancer, but not you like that. That's how people think. Right? I do think that's preservation.

Anonymous Female Speaker 40:44
Yeah, well, and like I said, I really believed that. If I could have done something, I would have done it. But I had tried and tried and tried and felt like, well, the complication, if the complications are gonna come, they're gonna come because I tried my hand at this. And it's just that it's not

Scott Benner 41:02
for me, I'm not gonna worry about something I can't stop. Right. But you were also a child when you were having those thoughts.

Anonymous Female Speaker 41:09
Well, I was when I started, and then that's it went well through my 20s.

Scott Benner 41:15
Do you think there's no winning? Like, when I say to somebody, Hey, would you have liked it? If your parents were more involved? They'll say, yeah, if my parents were more involved, I would understand this bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. And this all would have went better. But then you talk to somebody whose parents were very involved, and you're like, Hey, how was it? Your parents been very involved? I didn't like it. They were constantly on my back. Like, is it just the scenario where you just can't win? Like you, no matter what you do, you're gonna want the opposite.

Anonymous Female Speaker 41:43
I mean, I think anything taken to its extreme is probably going to be problematic. I think where, because I rebelled hard against my, the, what my parents tried to do, I pushed back on and it was uncomfortable for everyone involved. And so I think, for me, it just would have been a few key moments of like insisting that I was on a pump, or or just? I don't know, it's, it's a good question, because I definitely wasn't the sort of child that was going to be babysat. And then they kind of way, I had developed enough independence at that point that truly, if every meal was like, What's your blood sugar, I might have murdered someone. And so but on the flip side, there, there did need to be someone in the room to be a more rational, objective person. It's interesting, because in many ways, my partner my husband is now does that for me. So I, the next sort of chapter in the story is that when I tried to get into control, eventually, I had a really scary episode, and developed a severe fear of low blood sugar, which I had never had for them, you know, 15 years, and he has become someone who can be we call it like the astronaut brain. Because astronauts are always looking for like, what's the next thing that's gonna kill me, but it has to be calibrated because it can't panic while you're in space. And he has a very, like, grounded logical brain that allows him to look at a situation and say, okay, the number the line is starting to get flat. Now, I can see logically the line is starting to get flattened now, where when I'm in a, when I'm in an anxious moment, he I will just be like, well, but maybe I should drink some more apple juice, maybe maybe I should just a little bit more. And so he can be a voice of reason where, you know, when you're living, whatever that diabetic experiences, whether it is trying to find a low or whether it is not wanting to have something attached to your body, like there is a little bit of illogic that happens because you're feeling the feelings, instead of like being able to view the situation from a third party perspective. And so I think that there were moments where my parents could have done that, like, more of a worthy objective party in the room. Let us bring you back down from your, the feeling you're feeling right

Scott Benner 44:34
as the adult who's not busy. I'd like to weigh in on I think we can stop drinking the apple juice now. Right. Yeah. You know, earlier, you just, you know how, you know, at the beginning of the episode, you said you had to think about things that you weren't going to say. I've just thought of something I think I need to say and I don't think I should. that interesting. Crossroads, I think Yeah, I don't usually. Okay.

Anonymous Female Speaker 45:02
I think probably just say it.

Scott Benner 45:04
I think I figured out what Arden's churches. Oh, so Arden's not a combative child. And she's, I'm using the word compliant in the nicest way. She's a very compliant person. She's, you know about her diabetes, she doesn't fight against having diabetes. But she doesn't like swallowing pills that get stuck in her throat. And so she's supposed to be taking probiotics and a couple of other things. And she treats them like you're forced feeding her poison, and she knows it's poison. And the poison has razor blades wrapped around it, and you're trying to kill her with a gun at the same time. And I'm thinking now, is that where Arden finds her control over the uncontrollable stuff in her life? Like, does she just pick this little thing that she thinks, Oh, this isn't going to kill me? And I'll I'll make a stand here. So I feel like I'm in control of something. I'm glad you came on. Could be and where was Erica? She's done like 10 episodes about mental health stuff. I've never had this breakthrough with her. I hope she's listening. Let me down. Now, this was really, I actually decided to put it in the episode thinking maybe 35 year old Arden will hear this one day and be like, oh, yeah, that probably is what was happening. Maybe she'll call me and apologize. I mean, call me and tell me she misses me. Would that be weird?, hold on a second. You're jumping over this? What if in the future, my daughter calls me to say she misses me. And it's because of something I did in 2022 on a podcast.

Anonymous Female Speaker 46:47
I don't think that you're the sort of person she'll ever have the space or time to miss honestly.

Scott Benner 46:53
I'm insulted by love. Oh, no, I appreciate that. I can fill a room, you have no idea?

Anonymous Female Speaker 47:04
Ah, um, yeah, I think that it's been interesting to hear you talk about your sort of path with art. And because it's just so diametrically opposed to my, like, teenage years that it's hard. It's really hard for me to understand. I mean, Arden is certainly from a different generation than me, but like, the degree to which I fought diabetes, just doesn't seem to even occur to her at least from your description of it.

Scott Benner 47:38
Yeah, for the most part, she's getting ready to go. I think it like a day or so I said it funny. I don't even really know. I think it's early Thursday morning. She's gonna get on a plane with her class and fly to Disney. And they're gonna stay there for. Again, this is embarrassing. I don't know, three or four days. a while, you know, that'd be more than a day, you know. And I just got off the phone before I spoke with you with the traveling nurse that will be at Disney and I explained how we were going to do everything. And I said, you know, if you want to follow her Dexcom you can she said she would and I laid the whole thing out for her. She actually has a little bit of background with diabetes and that she helped an autistic child with type one at one point. So the kid was very unaware of the diabetes, and she had to know more about it. So I could hear in her descriptions that she saw some bigger picture stuff about overtreating and things like that. So I was like, Oh, this will be good. So we set up a group chat between my wife art and myself and the nurse. We're going to invite her to Dexcom later. I'm not nervous about that at all. I think Arden is going to go to college, 14 hours away by car. And I'm not even nervous about that. Like I think this is all going to work out okay. But it's important to say that when I say I think is going to work out okay, top line of what okay means to me is Arden's blood sugar's are stable within a certain range, and that we do everything we can to that that is first and foremost, like if she and I have to argue about probiotics. I am even cognizant of when we're arguing about it that at least we're not arguing about insulin. Right, right. Like that's most important and I guess maybe I didn't realize it but I think I think in that astronaut way you were describing I think of it as no first I say no to I find all the things to say no to first and then I thought and then I find the right things. My wife and daughter do not enjoy my thought process around that. But I eliminate all the problems and then I just enjoy the rest of it. But some I mean, you know go the opposite I guess.

Anonymous Female Speaker 49:59
Yeah. I am for sure the opposite, but I can appreciate the the It pairs well in my marriage just what I would say, Claire's. Well,

Scott Benner 50:12
I fascinated that you into the Grand Canyon without any fast acting carbs whatsoever.

Anonymous Female Speaker 50:17
Well, I had some in my bag, I just went on a five mile hike down the canyon without any, you know, that's fine.

Scott Benner 50:25
Okay, it worked out. All right. What else? Oh, here, why else? Why else are you on the show? Because you I remember you said things in your note. I don't know if I've gotten any of them.

Anonymous Female Speaker 50:36
Who knows what I said. Um, so I think the other piece of my story that could be helpful is so after. After a string of terrible endocrinologist, I found a good one. When I moved to LA, I found a endocrinologist that was, I was like, I'm gonna find someone who's great cutting edge of research, like, I'm just going to, I'm going to see if I can't find the best in the field to solve this, because I'm tired of having this like burden that I'm carrying around every day that is unsolvable. I found a doctor who was able to like recognize all the different pieces of what was happening to me, she got me on a Dexcom she started making changes to my long acting insulin. And was sort of cognizant that I wasn't going to be able to immediately switch to being on the pump, because I had fought it for so long and had this like, psychological stuff happening. But she was sort of also staying in her lane as the doctor and so she was like, You should probably talk to someone. But also, you know, we're gonna just make the small changes over time. So I switched to try Seba I, I tried to Frezza for a while. And we were sort of messing with my regime. And getting, you know, slowly but surely, making step taking steps out of a onesie, it took probably much longer than it should have. But, you know, we were going from 10 to eight. And it was like, Okay, this feels like progress, at least. And in the middle of that process, I went on a vacation, my husband and I went to Portland. And I always ran high. Obviously, I wasn't taking enough insulin. But when I would step away from work, the lack of stress often made me have lows that I wouldn't otherwise have. I would just regularly on vacation have these low loads that like in my normal day to day would not exist. We go out, we spend the day walking around, probably walk 10 or 12 Miles exploring the city, have a couple drinks, come back to the hotel room. It is, you know, probably 10 o'clock at night. And I want to have this donut from Voodoo Donuts. I think it's so fancier and gonna still live my best life even with diabetes. But my blood sugar is still high despite having walked around all day. And despite, you know, having tried to dose for dinner, and so I'm frustrated. And I take 10 units of human log thinking I'm covering the donut and also range bolusing for all the stuff that I've done throughout that day. Little did I know at the time, I was still taking too much long acting insulin and I had recently switched to Joseba, which was slightly more impactful than the Lantis that I was on. And you know, the effect of alcohol plus this rage Bolus meant that I wake up in the middle of the night, the Dexcom alerted that you're falling fast. And so I had fallen I would think I was falling. I want to say it was like 30 or 35 points each five minute time and so I'm just looking at this chart, but and seeing this like roller coaster of like, I'm gonna die. Like I'm not I'm not low yet. But looking at this and if I just keep drawing a line like this is aligned to death. I wake up my husband and freaking out. I am not in the middle of the Grand Canyon with no sugar. I have lots of sugar. So I'm drinking juice. I had some starbursts, I think trying to bring it up. But I'm panicking because I can see this like precipitous drop and start to get super anxious and I'm now crying and having sort of shortness of breath and eventually I work myself into such a panic that I start throwing up. And then at that point that only compounds the panic Because I now I'm like, Well, I'm not holding down the carbs, but I needed to bring me back up. And like, I'm just I'm gonna die here in this hotel room in Portland. What am I going to do?

Scott Benner 55:12
Was the Portland part the most upsetting?

Anonymous Female Speaker 55:17
No, I don't really have it out for Portland, lovely city. But I, you know, hyper independent, hyper aware I call an Uber I call taxi and I call the paramedics. Because I was like, I don't know this city. I don't know who's gonna get here faster. I don't know where the hospital is. And so interestingly, the taxi got there first and the paramedics then the Uber.

Scott Benner 55:42
I love that. That, by the way, is so freakin amazing foresight. You're like, three modes of transportation, whichever one gets your first.

Anonymous Female Speaker 55:54
And so when the paramedics showed up, they were like, well, put your blood sugar's not actually low. Because at that point, I think it was 70. And I was like, but look at the graph, it's gonna be low, like it's gonna be low. And they were like, man, we cannot treat you

Scott Benner 56:12
Was your husband sitting in that uncomfortable chair in the hotel room calling ex girlfriends gonna be like, Hey, I'm sorry, we broke up.

Anonymous Female Speaker 56:22
What I can say for him is that he has very chill vibes, very chill about the whole thing.

Scott Benner 56:29
A tree? He was like, Oh, no. Well, if

Anonymous Female Speaker 56:33
she, if she dies, I'll still have the trees.

Scott Benner 56:36
So did that experience, give you more anxiety? Or see because here's what I'll show you how your brain and my brain aren't similar, and yet are really I'm really enjoying talking to you, by the way, and are similar in different. What that would prove to me was, Oh, I could stop up a crazy fall. Like I did it. But what it proved to you was your blood sugar could fall on anywhere and you're gonna die. Is that right?

Anonymous Female Speaker 57:02
Well, and it, it seemed unpredictable. Like I had never had something like that happen. And so it was like, I couldn't trust the insulin. I in my lead up to the story. I gave you all the reasons why this happened. But in the moment, it was just like this is this uncontrollable unexplainable. Like I I did all the right things. And you know, diabetes is just impossible to understand

Scott Benner 57:29
coming again. Yeah. Yeah, I have a question. So you were you weren't like low while you were making those decisions yet. So you were like, like, you were panicking. But your your brain was functioning?

Anonymous Female Speaker 57:42
Right, right. So I could feel the drop. And I could, and I was like, deep in anxiety. And so this very, very kind. paramedic was like, ma'am, do you have anxiety issues? And I just started sobbing. looked at my husband and my husband said nothing as the life man.

Scott Benner 58:08
Now she's got a completely together. I've never once even noticed her shake her fingers. Like she doesn't get even nervous. That's fine. I'm just gonna go over here and look at the law. So So do you have do you have anxiety? Generally speaking?

Anonymous Female Speaker 58:23
Maybe, I don't know. How do you not know? I mean, I would the answer is probably yes. But like everything else. It's in degrees ingredients. And it depends on. Like, it's one of those things that like saying that you have as much like saying you have diabetes, saying that you have anxiety sort of it's like, oh, you have this uncontrolled, irrational anxiousness. And I would say that that irrational anxiousness is often prepared me well for various situations that

Scott Benner 58:58
you people call irrational I'd call getting ready. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to put much into a five gallon bucket in case the Russians come.

Anonymous Female Speaker 59:11
My husband and I do you have a vague outline of what would happen if if we got into an apocalyptic scenario. And our friends know this and nowhere to go?

Scott Benner 59:21
So interesting. I know I've said this on here before but it fits here. I know which one of my second floor windows I would jump out of if I absolutely had to jump out of the house. Like I have a plan for what I would do if I met a bear. I know what I would do if I found a bottle and the Genie was inside of it. I have a lot of plans for things that aren't going to happen. But I don't. I also want to point out that I didn't spend a ton of time on my genie plan. It was like five minutes when I was 12. It made a ton of sense and I've held on to it like throughout my life. I was just very concerned, that if I found a Genie in a Bottle I would end up with a fast car, a huge penis. And like something else that I couldn't use five minutes later get an amen. So I was like, I was like I wanted, wanted to make sure I was thoughtful about it. In case it should happen, anyway. But I'm not I don't think about that constantly. Like, I don't have any anxiety around. Oh, if the house catches on fire, I don't own a ladder that goes a rope ladder. Although now that I said it, maybe I'm gonna get a rope.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:00:30
That's what you that's. But I think you're you're articulating the key distinction is that lots of people are running around very anxious, but they've not went got pills for it, or they've not identified it as a problem. Because most of the time, it's helpful. Yeah, I'm anxious. Right? Yeah. But you're describing anxiety. But it's that your planning is so good that you don't have to get into scenarios where your planning has fallen short.

Scott Benner 1:00:59
first wish, no matter what I wish for next comes true. Second wish I don't die before I can make my third wish. Then I wish for unlimited wishes. And that's it. Because I'm, I need the unlimited wishes because I can't figure out like how to like get this down to three things. And I know for certain that I'm going to drop that before I get the wish out of my mouth. So and then I know my fourth wish will be about health and my friends and my family. Like I'll put everybody in a good place. And then I'll rebuild my life the way I would if everything was perfect, and then probably ruin it and then live forever and hate myself for eternity. That's probably what would happen. I wonder how much of that was sarcasm? How much of it was true just now?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:01:50
I'm like a true anxious person, honestly. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:01:54
I find myself to be prepared around ideas. And it goes back to I will tell you that when I was a child, I would imagine my parents death so that I would know what I would do if it would happen. You think that's anxiety? Can't say I haven't been there? Oh, no kidding. I'm incredible. Maybe you're not anxious.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:02:16
the paramedic begs to differ

Scott Benner 1:02:18
as a paramedic, what's you know, it's probably he was probably on mushrooms when he got there else is Portland.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:02:25
Right? Correct. Yeah. Um, so we go back up to the hotel room, I'm still falling a little bit in has slowed down, I eventually do have low blood sugar, right about the time that we sit ourselves down at the actually it wasn't when we sat down it was when we when my biscuits and gravy and two giant Apple juices are delivered at the diner across the street from the hotel. So again, like hyper preparedness is a thing that has served me well. But after that moment, I had tremendous anxiety that at any time, in an uncontrollable unexplainable way that I was going to have low blood sugar. And I wrote in the two hundreds and even, there were there was a time where I was uncomfortable below 250. And I just couldn't, even though I had run around, you know, even though I had had this childhood full of doing all kinds of insane things never knowing or caring what my blood sugar was, I could suddenly below 250 was like, hard pass. cannot do it. Um, and so

Scott Benner 1:03:38
hello, I had this I'm sorry, how long ago was this?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:03:41
Um, I would say, five years ago.

Scott Benner 1:03:45
I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:03:47
No, no, no. And so I then had like, essentially, then went to move to Colorado found a new endocrinologist and I was like, I want to get this under control. And I'm willing to do anything put me on a pump, I think I think I should be on a pump. This doctor had heard that field before and was like, come back in three months, we'll see if we can put you on a pump. And I was like, No, I'm a serious person. And he was like, come back in three months. So I came back in three months. And he put me on a poem. And we but in that in that three months, I also went started seeing a therapist who was a diabetic and we just like really did intense cognitive behavior interventions to slowly but surely make small changes so that I could do the thing that you're talking about, which is like, see what the insulin did does trust that it does that every time. Trust that I know what is going to happen, and over time have been able to Now my agencies like in the sixes, my endo is like hi, bye loved it, love to see you. But it was probably like three solid years of work.

Scott Benner 1:05:10
At what point in that process? Do you find me?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:05:15
Pretty early. So after I want to say after I started having this anxiety realize I need to solve it. I'm like, I just need to fix sort of my relationship with diabetes, and I start to do all the things that I was a hard pass on before. So I joined some Facebook groups, I find the podcasts, I ordered some books online, I was like, we're just gonna, like immerse ourselves like denied the days of denial or past we have to like know what's going on. And so I found found the podcast listened straight through to the defining diabetes portion. That was called the pro tip.

Scott Benner 1:06:01
Defining variables. I got the pro tip episodes, newly diagnosed or starting over episode two times. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:06:11
I started there. And then just like, after I got through those, just listen to whatever was next in the feed. And at some point, you said something that truly, I think changed my relationship with diabetes, which was just like, if you want to, if you want more control, like, you should take less insulin, you won't have those swings. It's not, it's interesting, because it's not the like, take more be bolder thing. But it's like, these big doses of insulin that you're taking are then causing these crazy schemes. And so if you can just take a little bit that apple juice would cover, you'd be fine. And I was like, Oh, I can actually just do that. Here's a unit. Here's a unit and a half, like, that's fine.

Scott Benner 1:06:54
The Bumping and nothing made sense to you. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? How? My thing my words, whatever they are, get interpreted by different people different ways. Like I, I agree with you. I don't think I'm I don't think of how am I gonna say this? I'm not bold with insulin in the way that some people would think of those words, right? I'm bold in a way that to me means I use insulin in a way that most people don't think about using it. I'm bold in that it's different. I don't mean that I'm like, you know, like, hey, just drink the vial. Let's see if it works through your stomach to like, Let's inject it in both arms at the same time. Like I'm not like some crazy guy throwing insulin around all over the boys. I mean, my daughter's got some larger bowls. Is it times based on on how her settings are? Actually I was looking earlier while we were talking. She's at school. So I don't know what she ate. I have no idea because I'm not with her. But she Bolus 65 carbs was like 14 and a half units. Oh, man. Yeah. And I mean, she's doing alright, her blood sugar's 145. Like, it's level. Like, it looks like it looks to me like she didn't Pre-Bolus and that she over Bolus for something knowing that she didn't Pre-Bolus. And I've never actually even said that to her. Like, that's just something she's picked up from what we've done, you know, but anyway, I'm sorry, back to the, the terminology that gets thrown around. That gets sometimes attached to me. Like, I don't know, like it. The whole podcast has gotten too big. Like, I can't have a private conversation with everybody. But I think if someone came and interviewed me, you'd be surprised at some of my answers. Because I do think exactly what you just said. It's, it's about timing and amount. And if you use the right amount the right time, and you never get high, then you don't have to correct and if you don't have to correct a big high, you're not going to upload later, you know, nothing's perfect, but likely in that using more targeted insulin is is the way I can see where somebody who has had diabetes for a long time might hear the word bold and think I'm just talking about like use a mallet like Thor's hammer full of insulin but generally,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:09:22
the dose I took in Portland like that was bold. It was wrong decision.

Scott Benner 1:09:27
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you were bold with it. So you might have been like, poorly thought out and stupid with insulin. Like I don't rage I don't think of I don't think we rage Bolus ever. Like I've never just been like, just use a massive amount of insulin that I don't know is being covered or not because I gotta get out of this thing. Like, I'll crush it and catch it. But that's still a fairly well thought out process based on my experiences with insulin. So anyway, it's weird to put your thoughts out into the world like this and have so many people hear them because when you You hear them mirrored back at you. You're like, Oh, I didn't mean that. But, but it's almost like it's almost like a book review. Like I realized one day, like, if I'm going to take a good book review, I gotta take a bad book review. And if, and there are people who have heard me say something and applied it to their lives and had a lot of success with it, and sometimes when I hear them talk about, I think that's not what I meant. But, you know, like, if it worked for you great, like whatever you took from it. I think maybe I'm learning over time that even more, I'm gonna say something I don't know if I believe completely, but maybe more important than the ideas is the conversation. I don't know, maybe?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:10:44
No, I mean, I think that that connects to sort of one of the other things that I would just say that I wish I had known sooner in my diabetes journey is that like, the community actually does matter. I think I spent like 20 years not believing that the community matters. I was like, it didn't matter. I have this struggle with diabetes, I don't need to talk to anyone about it. I don't need to, like, have people feel bad for me. I don't need to explain why it's awful. Like we all know, it's awful the end. And I like a shoe the idea of diabetes camp, I was like, What are we going to like build pink Priuses and sort of shoot them out into the lake and burn them in effigy like a Viking funeral, like I just didn't understand or appreciate, like, what it would mean to have a community and what the value could be. And I do think it is like, to your point, the exchange of information, and the like perspective that you can get from seeing someone else do it differently. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:11:53
So I think a lot of pride, even though you weren't speaking to me, just then I take a lot of pride in that you feel that way. Because and again, this is not a judgment against those people. But in the beginning, when there were just a few diabetes blogs, they were all long term type ones who were living pretty scared lives, they were scared of lows too. And, you know, we'd make the same joke about diet soda over and over again, like, I can see why you wouldn't want to be a part of that community. But also, that was their truth. And they were sharing it. But the problem I always found is that then the community got built around voices that didn't know what they were doing all the time. Like, it's not that their stories weren't important, because they're incredibly important and sameness and community in that way is is valuable in a way that's hard to put into words like I'm not, I am not coming down on what happened. I just think that that's where it started. Like, if there was no diabetes community, before the day I decided to make this podcast, it's possible that that community would have built out around the idea of, you know, maybe you have more control over all this than you think you do. And, and so it got built out that way, I can see why it drew a lot of people in and I can see why it repelled a lot of people away. Also, you just threw in a skewed, like, into the conversation like none of us were gonna hear it. You and your fancy education.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:13:24
I went to state school. It's not that fancy.

Scott Benner 1:13:28
I'm just teasing you. I like your usage. I heard it, I'm just I'm giving you props. I like to use it anyway. My pride comes from thinking that maybe there's another generation of people who's, you know, who will be a little bolder in their ability to find answers for themselves, and to apply things that they've learned. You know, I just watched in the Facebook group yesterday, this person, and I understood where they were coming from. So they get into account, they're newer to the Facebook group, they clearly don't listen to the podcast, which is a weird dichotomy for me. Because in my mind, I don't even know how you know about the Facebook group if you don't listen to the podcast, but it's gotten to that point where my Facebook group has become so popular and big, and I think valuable for people that it attracts people in anyway that never heard the podcast. Now you have a newer diagnosed child, the parent is real fear based at still, which is understandable. Some person asks a question, and the responses start coming back that are very rooted in the podcast. And there are people saying like, hey, try this episode, try listening to this Bah, blah, blah. And it just overwhelmed. One person who came in and was like, you can't listen to a podcast over your doctor. And I was like, whatever. Like she can say whatever she wants. I don't care. Like, like, you don't mean so they're having this conversation back and forth. But I could see how afraid she was. She was afraid that someone was going to say something that another person was going to misunderstand. And it was going to be detrimental to their health. And she felt so passionate about it that she kept arguing. And people were like, look very kind to her, I thought, I thought the conversation was very clear, like, look, you know, I think you've you, maybe you should try this. And she just kept pushing back, I could tell she felt like she was saving someone's life. And so I didn't, I thought nothing of it, I let the conversation go on, and on and on. It actually wasn't until, and I very, very infrequently do this, but I had to, like, block her from the group because she started DMing people, like really fearful things. And I thought, well, this is such a strange thing. Because one day, this lady won't feel this scared. And she will look back on this moment, and be embarrassed, and she shouldn't be, but but she will be. And, but that's if she's lucky. And she gets the information, and she figures out how to collate it and use it in her life. Or she might just blow off into the breeze like you did as a kid, and live there forever. And I felt a real responsibility to not let her just fade away. And it wasn't until she, you know, went behind people's but like she was doing it privately that I thought, Okay, I can't give her access to these members, they need protection from something like this. But I would have been happy if she would have kept the conversation in the space. Because I think it could take her months to grow away from that fear. And I wanted her to be able to do it. But she got a little too internet crazy. So it had to stop. But Well,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:16:38
it's interesting to watching sort of the juicebox community because it so many of the people that are in it are parents of type ones and not type one themselves. I mean, there are people like me too, but there it creates this interesting dichotomy because like the idea that you would just trust your doctor 100% When, when you're a diabetic, you know, you have to then go home and make these decisions. And that it all is kind of a gamble, and that the doctor only knows like this much of your entire diabetes, sort of experience in life. It may, I don't know, maybe I'm just like, a naturally skeptical person. But it the idea that you would just be like, what only the doctor can know, is something that is hard to understand. But I think that if you're a parent of a child, and like watching that unfold, I can imagine how scary that would be. And so you have to trust the only thing that is saying, I'm correct, I'm

Scott Benner 1:17:40
right. Yeah, right guys got a coat on hat. And there's a thing hanging on his wall, like he must know. Actually, you know, it's funny. I know the makeup of the Facebook group, there are way more adults in there than you think they're just very quiet. They don't talk. They don't talk as much as the parents. But they're there. I don't know that it's 5050. But it's closer to 65 divided than you than you might think it is. It's very interesting. And when the adults do pop up their stuffs always super valuable. Because they've got context that that the parents don't have. I'm proud that there's an interplay in there between adults and parents, because it's hard to I don't know, I don't understand people's minds and why they, they they run off into teams, and they want to be on teams. And it's all important, like I'm an adult with type one, and you're a parent with type one, or you have type one, and you have type two, or you like the Kansas City Chiefs, and I like that, like I don't understand why people care about that, if I'm being perfectly honest. But it happens. It's very real. And any time that you can bring a couple of teams together and let them see each other's you know, inner workings, I find it to be really valuable. Anyway,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:18:55
I saw I saw a post this morning about silver linings and you know, she clearly a new a newly diagnosed kid and she's just like, there will never be a silver lining. Like what is this person even asking me about? And I was like, Oh, I could probably articulate some silver linings having lived with us and and like I'm someone who has complications. I'm someone who has done the whole roller coaster and I could still probably articulate a few. So I do think that that like Interplay from being able to hear from someone who's further along the line to when you're just newly diagnosed is one of the more beautiful parts of the podcasts in the Facebook crew. I think

Scott Benner 1:19:37
one of the cool parts about my job is that I saw that post as well. And I know where it's gonna go, because I've seen it 100 times before, and it's gonna go in a really good place. And that person is going to get a lot out of it. I even know how they're going to feel when it's over. Because I've seen it play out so many times. There are times when I see stuff like that pop up and I go Oh, that's good. But I can't wait for people to have this conversation, that's a great conversation for them to have just the same way as sometimes somebody says something like, there's no good end to this, like this is, this is not going to end well, like it can't like it, just it and not that it couldn't, by the way, everybody could make the right decision. But I haven't seen it yet.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:20:20
You have so many people in a room, it's just headed in that direction,

Scott Benner 1:20:25
almost feels like what it might be like to be like a judge, and have presided over 10,000 cases, like when you're 70. And somebody you know, in the to the plaintiff and the defendant stand up and they start talking, you're like, I already know how this is gonna go. You know, like, it's not that people don't have real agency, it's just that there are a finite number of decisions you can make. And eventually, you know, I know we all like to feel special, but my life's not much different than, than yours, and vice versa. And you sometimes you just know how it's gonna work out. So I love watching people find answers. And I like watching them get to them in ways that I at least believe are valuable. in a bigger way than just what I see in front of me, like, I know how growth goes like, like, there are people who, who email me. And they, I mean, they, they feel like their five seconds of throwing themselves off a building, you know, and I just tell them, like, I already know how this is gonna go, like you don't know, but trust me, here's what you need to learn. Once you learn that, apply it after you apply it, you'll feel better after you feel better, you'll see a bigger picture, eventually, you know, six months from now, you won't feel this way. And you'll send me an email and tell me you don't feel this way. And then six months from now, the email comes back in there. Okay. So I mean, if everybody can believe me, it's gonna be all right. Just gotta get your basil right. Pre-Bolus and learn about the different impacts to your foods. And yeah, you'll learn how to use insulin, it'll be okay. Do you have to go? I saw you look aside.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:22:03
I've got 10 minutes.

Scott Benner 1:22:05
Do you have anything? Are you? Well, then here? Here's the question. Is there anything that we haven't talked about? That you want to talk about?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:22:15
That's a good question.

Scott Benner 1:22:16
Want to throw out a couple of big words or anything like that? What other words do you know? I know some words. Yeah, are they gonna be?

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:22:26
So I think that what I will say, I think I would just double down on the community piece. So my whole life, I didn't know anyone that was diabetic, it was just me. And I suppose my uncle, but he's had a hard life. And I was not something I thought of as a role model. And so I and I always thought that was fine. And I think that. So coming to the law school, there happens to be like six or seven of us running around with Dexcom here. And there's a there's a little bit of a Dexcom exchange and a low blood sugar Exchange, or a low blood sugar treatment exchange. And there's a crew of girls that like follows each other. And that is the first time really that I've had that in person connection. And I got a taste of it in the podcast, and then was willing to, like, do that in real life. Because I had seen like how much the podcasts had benefited how I thought about diabetes. And I just think that if there was one thing, I would leave like parents with of type ones with but also type ones too. Like, you should probably go find a community, even if the whole idea is abhorrent to you or if it's like pretty difficult. I think that there is real value in not being alone in this disease. Sorry, I was trying not to swear. But are you

Scott Benner 1:24:08
with her so much? 234567. I've made nine notes of where I have to pick out cursing, figuring it out an hour and 20 minutes into it.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:24:21
No, no, that was the tame version. Honestly, it was it was the censored version.

Scott Benner 1:24:27
I think that community can have a bad connotation for people. I think that they can see it as Kumbaya and we're all going to just like say positive things to each other. And you know, and it's gonna be a lot of people don't want that. I have to be honest. I wouldn't want that either. But,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:24:45
I mean, that's what I thought it was. I honestly thought that like when people talked about being in community, it was like we're gonna hold hands and talk about the Dexcom sensor and I was like, No, thank you to all of that. Right? Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:24:58
I'm Good. But it what it really is, is it's an invisible support system. And that's important. Like the not feeling alone is really important. Not Being alone is more important. And I think that's where the blend of, I mean, if I can, like, I guess I'm going to speak for myself here, which is gonna, I'm gonna sound like a douchebag in a second. But I think that what I, in a second, do you think most people were like, yeah, and for the last hour and a half those podcasts, and most of the episodes, but at TQ people I say, off, but I think what I've done is that I've found a way to take the community and blend it with actual, like ideas that are helpful. So that the community can just be this thing, like, it's supposed to be like this, this energy in the background that exists, and it will buoy you, but isn't something that you physically have to be touching constantly to be a party to? theirs. I someone should do a dissertation on what this podcast is like one day, like I hope I live long enough for somebody to break it down as their grad student project. Because I think that between the information that's in my head about insulin, how I think about the world, my ability to communicate with people, my ability to take something that I mean, let's be honest, should be really boring. And I think I do a pretty good job of it not being boring. And then to bring all these people together from all over the world, by the way, like, I don't have as many international guests on as I could. But people are listening everywhere, and just how it's empowered people from somebody who's had diabetes for 20 years and, you know, felt like they were at a loss to people who have, you know, just found that they felt that they have diabetes today. And and delivered a message that they can all on some level absorb and find useful. I mean, honestly, I don't know how I did it. Like you don't you mean, like, it just worked. I just, I don't even feel like, I don't even feel deserving of saying that I did it. I just had this idea. And I kept falling it to where it makes sense next, and building on it where it makes sense. And there are plenty of ideas that people had. I'm like, No, that's not right. Like, and I don't know if I'm wrong, but I've ignored things that, like right now people are trying to get me to start a babysitting thing. And I'm like, yeah, no, I can't, like I have a finite amount of time. And you don't understand the legality around that. Like, I can't be involved in you finding a babysitter who shows up in your house and then takes the Ginsu knives and kills your dog. You know what I mean? Like that? I can't be involved in that. Is it a bad idea? It's not, but it won't reach as many people as you think it's, it's a finite need in a certain age. You won't reach as many people as you need to make it popular, like I know, that can't work without like a ton of money, and I don't have that money to put into it. So I'm able to kind of like go, no, that idea is not good. But then, you know, bringing Jenny in just that was obvious. And well, you know, sorry, no, you're fine.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:28:18
I feel like I've told you this in maybe several Instagram posts, because it comes over me as an organizer a lot. But it does, like the structure of the podcast seems like very much grounded in the principles of community organizing, and that you have this like, belief or belief system. That is, you know, what works, essentially, and then you've just been talking about it, and that people, people will hear it. And if they like what they hear and believe what they hear and find it useful, they stay. And then you start to build this group of people. And I think what's cool is in the time that I've sort of been watching, I see, like leaders, so there's a whole there's a whole model of community organizing, this is really nerdy, so sorry, but it's called the snowflake model. And it sort of builds out from a center leader and then they build out these additional leaders and those people go tell other people and and build this snowflake of people that are more powerful, quote unquote, then just any individual sort of in a room by themselves. And I think that the I've seen that happen with the podcast, like they are now ambassadors or leaders or whatever nodes of people that are gonna go out and talk about how to bump in nudge and how to think about timing and amount in ways that before they were at the Met the podcast, they would not have done that. And I think that like that is how that is what political organizers hoped for, and almost can never find but I think the difference between sort of a political message and what you have to offer is that it is concrete improvement in people's lives if they choose to apply it and so like it makes sense That continues to exponentially grow.

Scott Benner 1:30:03
Am I the center of the snowflake? Unfortunately, Yeah, unfortunately, yes, yeah. Hey, listen, you can't you can't pick who it ends up being. I know it's upsetting that it's me. But again

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:30:18
no question that Martin Luther King would ask.

Scott Benner 1:30:24
I was just trying to build a picture of what you're saying, because I think you swallowed the word snowflake when you first started it. So I was trying to make sure people understood. And then I did it in a way that was self effacing. Because, you know, I don't know. That's just how my brand brand, right? So. But no, I actually had three. It's funny, as you were finishing, I had three questions. And I was like, do I go with the funny one? Let's towards the end, I'll keep it light. Or, and then I thought, or do I go with the more serious one. I'm like, Oh, she might run out of time. And then I defaulted to stupid. But I really, it's amazing to hear you explain that. Because I've been learning this as I'm doing it. I had no idea about any of this. Like, it's very, like, I'm not lying to you. The first month I made this podcast 1300 times it was downloaded. So I don't know what that means. There were only four episodes. I mean, rough math, there's probably like 400 people listening maybe. And I mean, last month, I think it were like 350,000 downloads. So it's, I've had to grow along with it. And trust me, if I don't keep figuring it out and staying flexible the way I am, this thing would have died 1000 times already. Like, I know, it seems like you just build this thing. And it grows exponentially on its own. But it's not. It's like every time I look up, this is an entity that is different than the entity it was three months prior. And so I have to keep, like there was a time where I had to be online answering people's questions. And now people answered the questions for me. And so I can move my my focus to a different thing. There's a time when I had to take a lot of phone calls from people, because I couldn't reach them with the podcast yet. So I would reach them personally. And then they would go out and tell their people, it's simple to just say it's word of mouth. Because it is the podcast grows completely through word of mouth. But I have I was gonna say something that sounds so douchey. But like, I think you have to have like your finger on the pulse of what's happening. And you have to keep adjusting. And if you do it wrong, you have to be able to throw your hands up and say, Oh, they don't care. Like, we started animating the defining diabetes series for YouTube. And we got like three or four of them up and I'm like, oh, people don't care about this. And I contact the animator was like, Stop, like, stop. She's like, you don't want to finish? And I'm like, no, no, stop, it's over. It didn't work. Like right, like, I'm gonna try a different way to do it. Again, I have we have the content, I'll try it a different way. I'm like, but I want you to shift and start taking 32nd clips out of episodes and making them into animations. And we'll try them on different social media platforms instead. And if that doesn't work, I will abandon that in three seconds. And that's where companies are screwed. Because they make a decision. It's people's jobs. Nobody wants to say the thing that they had an idea about was bad. So they will follow a bad idea right to their death. And I'm just like, No, no, that's not working stop, we got to pivot. And

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:33:31
well, and what you're describing is like, also, what politicians have to do and are so bad at but like, the ability to focus on what actually matters. And what actually impacts lives like is what sorry to, like, take it to politics, but like that's what a good politician can do, and can stop, you know, a organization of hundreds of people and say we were doing this, we're shifting message because like the you're wrong about what actually matters and what's happening impact. And so, to that end, I think that as I it's funny that you bring up the animations because I saw those I was like, this feels odd. I don't know what Scott is doing with these. Exactly. And so it's funny, then that that plan that seems like it's shifting or changing and it doesn't doesn't surprise me that you are capable of recognizing that. And then moving back to like what is making traction because that is something that you have to be able to do in a political in any sort of movement. Like I keep making it political. It's

Scott Benner 1:34:34
a great example of that people don't really know what they want. And that's where leadership comes in. So people think they want the animations. They like the idea of it. I will show this to my kid and my kid will understand Pre-Bolus thing now because of this and even while they were saying I was like that's not right. Then enough people said it. I was like, Alright, well let's give them what they want. And so like I gave it to him, I was like, Oh, you don't want this. You think you want this? And I was like oh that's interesting. So now you know it's set up, and it's easy to do. So I'm like, well, let's just make little clips of it. And we'll see if we can make it work on tick tock or Instagram, like stories or stuff like that. And if it works great, and if it doesn't, then to me, that's what leadership is leadership is being able to say, you know, a, I know what it sounds trust me, if you're listening, you're gonna think it sounds horrible, but I probably have a better idea of what you need around diabetes than you do at this point. And it's

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:35:28
leadership and it's parenting, you want to date the bad boyfriend, but I can tell you right now, it's not gonna work

Scott Benner 1:35:36
out with the guy who has goo at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. And is like, here, this is the stuff I eat when I'm riding my bicycle and it will bring your blood sugar up. Yeah, no,

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:35:45
the only man who brought water sometimes. Exactly.

Scott Benner 1:35:49
Alright, we had a great time, didn't we? Yes, yes, we did. Can I call this episode if it pleases the court? Sure, can I? Because I don't know what else to call it right now. curses a lot. It dog. He got his called dog. No one will even get that that was an hour and a half ago. Right now people listening are like what is she talking about? So I was like, alright, real quick. It's Kamala Kamala Kamala, I keep saying it wrong. Kamala Harris, her husband's name is Doug. If you didn't hear that, an hour and a half ago, you weren't paying attention and you've insulted me. And that's the end of this. Alright, go learn how to be a lawyer. What kind of lawyer you're going to defend people or throw him in jail.

Anonymous Female Speaker 1:36:31
I'm obviously going to defend people. Good for you.

Scott Benner 1:36:35
Very nice. All right. You were terrific. You'll be back on one day. All right, you let me know. Alright. Take care.

Bye. Want to thank for coming on the show. I want to thank Omni pod for sponsoring the show. I want to thank Nick Contour Next One blood glucose meter for sponsoring this stuff for sponsoring the show. I don't know what happened just there. On the pod.com Ford slash juice box, go find out about the Omni pod five, or the Omni pod dash, whichever strikes your fancy. And of course, at contour next one.com Ford slash juice box, you can get my daughter's blood glucose meter. It's terrific. It just is contour next one.com forward slash juice box.

If you're into helping people, especially people with type one diabetes, I'd like to ask you to go to T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. When you get there, fill out the survey completely. And you've helped somebody, all you need to be is a US resident who has type one diabetes, or is the caregiver of someone with type one, t one D exchange.org Ford slash juicebox. Join the registry, complete the survey, help someone with type one diabetes, help yourself perhaps and support the Juicebox Podcast, you will do all of this in the fewer than 10 minutes that it will take to go to that link and complete the survey. The survey is very simple. You'll know all the answers to all the questions. It is also HIPAA compliant and completely anonymous. T one D exchange.org. Forward slash juicebox. There are the links in the show notes of your podcast player and links at juicebox podcast.com. To all of the sponsors. And to T one D exchange. When you take the time to click on my links or to type them in a browser. You're telling the sponsors that you came from the Juicebox Podcast and that is a wonderful way to support the show. Are you looking for a vibrant and intelligent community around diabetes? look no farther than the Facebook page, the private Facebook page for the Juicebox Podcast. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. The group has over 28,000 members. And those members are responsible for between 70 and 110 new posts every day on the Facebook page. Every conceivable conversation around diabetes is happening at Juicebox Podcast, type one diabetes on Facebook, you're gonna see great questions, thoughtful answers, and supportive people. No matter if you're an adult living with type one diabetes, or the caregiver of someone with type one. This group is for you. Doesn't matter if you eat low carb or high carb or somewhere in between your questions and thoughts are welcome on our Facebook page. I hope you check it out. Last little bit if you're looking for the diabetes Pro Tip series or the Finding diabetes series or any of the other multitude of series that exists within the podcast, you can find them in a number of ways. They are at juicebox podcast.com. They are at diabetes pro tip.com. And if you belong to the private Facebook group, you can find them listed in the featured tab. Now if you're enjoying the podcast, please consider sharing it with someone else that helps the podcast grow more than anything word of mouth is definitely how the show has become what it is. If you have already shared it with everybody you can think of and you've bought it on the potter decks calm or supported one of the other sponsors. You've done the T one D exchange survey. And now you're looking for another way to give back to the podcast, super simple. A five star rating and a thoughtful review in whichever audio app you listen in would be amazing. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

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