#691 'Mom' Guilt

June 1, 2022Scott Benner

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades. She and Scott discuss ‘Mom’ Guilt.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to episode 691 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsyth this back today she is a licensed marriage and family therapist who has had type one diabetes for over 30 years. You can catch Erica on episode 407 emotions a diagnosis and diabetes distress episode 445 supporting caregivers episode 473 Sneaking food episode 479 teen talk, Episode 514 sharing the care of a type one child episode 576 Hard type one questions from kids and episode 659. Burnout today, Episode 691 is about mom guilt. And I have the mom in quotes because it's really about guilt for both parents and adults living with type one. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan are becoming bold with insulin. I have a couple more little announcements here after the music then we're gonna get right to Erica

this show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries G voc hypo pen. Find out more at G voc glucagon.com. Forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. You can learn more about Ardens blood glucose meter at contour next one.com forward slash juicebox. And today's podcast is also sponsored by us med get your diabetes supplies at us med.com forward slash juicebox. Whereby calling 888-721-1514. Recording Here we go. So we are recording now so you know. And just give me any words I can make sure you're on.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:18
Okay. Good morning, or good afternoon.

Scott Benner 2:21
Yeah. Okay, you and I are doing something. Let's let Pete I don't usually let people in on this. This is going to be an episode that gets recorded and posted in the same 12 hours. Which that's exciting because today is May 30. Tomorrow, May 31, the last day of mental health awareness month. That's right, right. So we didn't do that on purpose. But hey, what the heck, let's act like we did this out. But I think people who listen know that I'm not the guy who's like it's Father's Day do Father's Day stuff. But this just worked out really well. And I have a topic that I sent you I forget how I asked you. I was like Is this a real thing? Like, like, you know, something that the doctors believe in? Because I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I want to talk about it. And you were really open to the discussion. So I appreciate that very much.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:14
Yes, yes. And I think it is it is a real thing. I think we could we could open it even further to mom guilt dad guilt, or caregiver guilt. Just because that's where we are in our day and age. Yeah,

Scott Benner 3:32
no, I think that too. Like I am interested if it's something that strikes females differently or harder but I don't know if that's something you can quantify or not. And you know, I mean I'm a I've been a stay at home dad forever. You know, I think I I quit my job a couple of months before my like a month or two before my son was actually born in 2000 So this is my 22nd year of being a stay at home dad I guess technically I'm more of a podcaster now but that's not really the point. And I felt the pain but I've been much more able to just not give over to it as much and I am wondering if that's person to person you know, I'm endlessly fascinated with people Yes, mental health and why decisions get made or why things happen that aren't even decisions so let me first ask you do you think it that there is some sort of physiological change that happens when you become a parent?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:34
Yes, I probably couldn't probably speak to the old the science behind it. But I think just naturally your everything changes in terms of how you spend your day, your time your focus your priority. And I think that happens for you know, all genders. I think your your initial question of you know, is it are women or moms more prone to it, I would say probably due to gender stereotypes or gender role expectations. Stereotypically, moms may do better at that, so to speak. Yeah. But I think it can definitely both both moms and dads or any caregiver can experience this type of guilt.

Scott Benner 5:27
Are I know you this is not your area of expertise. But do you think hormones have any impact on it for women?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:33
Hmm. I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know. We'll have to dig into that.

Scott Benner 5:39
One thing I can tell you for sure. Is that, that when we had our son, pretty young, I don't know how much I talked about this, like my wife was, I think, 22 When we got married, and I think that was in 1996. And four years later, look at me, I was like, when was that? And four years later, in 2000, Cole was born. So we were married for years or so. But Kelly was still just like, 26. And not that she wasn't always, Kelly's always sort of been like a hard working mature person. I don't know another way to put that. But she really was when I met her a person who's like, I'm gonna grow up, I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna go to New York, I'm gonna work, I'm gonna have a white sofa, like you don't I mean, like, I'm gonna live by myself. And even when we were married in the first few years, I mean, that's pretty much how she was. And right now, she's downstairs. And if you said anything bad to my children, or about my children, she'd get a bat and beat you to death with it. So I don't know why that what happened to her. But it happened. It felt pretty instant. It really did. Yeah, it felt instant.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:47
And I think that's is that maternal paternal instinct? Taking over? Is that related to hormones? Maybe? I don't know, I can't speak to that, specifically. But I think it is just Well, I think we're just talking about caregiving in general, just this natural, protective, instinctive response that we have when we have children. And regardless of however, we have them, you know, whether it's biological adoptive, all the different ways that one can become a caregiver.

Scott Benner 7:20
So you see you become, I mean, obviously, listen, we're not saying anything, it's hard to understand, but babies are helpless. And they're yours, you feel a connection to them, hopefully right away, or at some point, I mean, I'm sure there are some people who never connect with their kids, I've seen it happen, it's sad. But generally speaking, for the most part, you have this, this feeling of I have to protect this thing. I have to make sure it's happy. I have to make sure it's safe I have to make sure it grows up well and has opportunities and you have all these like crazy feelings. And you could be in another situation by the way you could be in a in a depressed situation financially where your your focus is more about I have to get this kid food I have to find a way to give them clothes and shoes or whatever it ends up being. Is that is it when you perceive a failure that the guilt hits?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:12
You? Well? Yes, I would say when you perceive a failure, and I think it's important to differentiate between guilt and shame here because guilt is I and Brene Brown, who I'm sure I'll mentioned more than once on this podcast, she has read a lot of books and TED talks around this topic around the difference between guilt and shame and guilt is more of a response to the behavior like I I did I did something bad in terms of you know over talking about you know, care mom dad mom guilt I did something bad I didn't do this well, I didn't spend enough time with my child i i didn't wasn't able to give them enough food I wasn't able to sign them up for all the activities I wanted to because of finances that that is a response feeling badly or wishing things were different in response to behavior. That is the guilt feeling which often can be like productive in some cases because then if you're aware you can make changes shame is when you're when you let's say you feel you are feeling you are experiencing guilt because quote, you did something bad shame is then I am bad. I am not a good enough mom. I'm not a good enough parent. I'm never I'm a terrible person. And so that I think it's just important to kind of differentiate those two things. Before we move forward. Yeah,

Scott Benner 9:43
can something an outside force? Take shame and make it into guilt for you or guilt make it into shame for you. I'm trying to I'm trying to find a I wish I was smarter in this moment. I record but I'm trying to find

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:58
I think well I think the easiest one would be social media or influence or even a family member, let's say your I mean that the easiest kind of example that comes to mind because I am a working mother is, you know, you don't, you don't spend enough time with your children and you're feeling guilty about that, because you're trying to find the, you know, the, quote, work life balance, which is kind of a funny thing in and of itself. But, and then and then maybe you post something about that guilt on social media, trying to either be comforted, or maybe to feel less lonely, because it can be a very isolated and very common experience, I also think we need to normalize it. Most parents can feel guilt from time to time, and that's normal. And you're not alone in that. But let's say you're feeling that guilt, and you're either talking about it with a family member, or you're posting something about on social media. And then you get either attacked or shamed like you should be staying home or why aren't you? Well, you know, why are you working so much? Or, really, you should, you should cut down on those hours. So you can be at your child's soccer games, those types of comments can definitely help you lead the shame, if you're looking for that and susceptible to that type of feedback.

Scott Benner 11:14
So you're somebody could guilt, somebody could shame you about something you feel guilt about? Yes, yes. And then you you could then transition or I guess, duplicate, you could probably split off and feel both things all of a sudden, like you already felt guilty. Now you're ashamed of it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:32
Absolutely. And then you're in a kind of this shame spiral. And the I think we can get to, you know, how to help us help yourself in that moment. But I think having that initial awareness of oh, I'm feeling guilty, this is a normal feeling as a parent, and, and then either reflecting back, okay, maybe I could find some ways to be, you know, at home or more present when I am home. And maybe it's putting your phone down by the front door, whatever it may be. But then when that you lead into shame, were like, Oh, my gosh, I'm such a bad parent. Because I was talking about this with my aunt and she made these comments. And I'm never going to be the parent that she was those those it's all kind of in that your narrative, your self talk right as to how far and how deep you can go into that shame. But it can be influenced and exaggerated by outside forces, as you say,

Scott Benner 12:31
Why Why? Why not? It's a big question. I'm about to have no answer. But might you say it a different way. In your example, you go online, you make this statement, hey, this happened. I wish I could have done better. There are a number of people who will come in and support you. Right? People say it's okay, cut yourself a break. You know what I hear people say all the time, give yourself some grace, things like that. But then there's anger, people are either supportive or angry, or the angry people just protecting themselves from feeling guilty about something that they're keeping under the surface. Like, why would you lash out at a person for saying, I need help? I don't understand that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:13
I? Well, yeah, without knowing their their own individual psyche and experience and trauma, oftentimes, kind of the, quote, bullying behavior online could be stemming from one person's own shame. And they are trying to alleviate some of that, or kind of discharge some of that odds, so to speak on to the other person. So I get to shame you, because that's the only way I know how to make myself feel better.

Scott Benner 13:43
Yeah, sometimes I see it as them protecting their own psyche, the attacker, and sometimes I see it as they believe it works for them. And they're trying to tell you, hey, look, just push through, push it down. Don't think about it, you'll be okay. I also want to say on a side note, if you ever write an article about your time with me, I think you should title it without knowing. Because it's the it's the phrase you use most when I asked you open ended questions that have no real answer. You go without knowing the details.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:16
Because I never want to assume

Scott Benner 14:18
that's why I like you. Every time I hear you say that. I think Eric is the right person for for bed. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:22
funny. I am glad you pointed that out. Now I have to be extra aware of how often I use that. Oh,

Scott Benner 14:27
no, you should keep saying it. You keep saying it's how I know I've reached the line. I hear without knowing as well. Gee, Scott, why don't you ask another question that has 73 answers and just generalize the hell out of this whole thing. But, but I'm just going by what I see most I mean, I run a really huge Facebook group. And I hate to say it, but at this point, I read people's posts. And I think oh, this is that one, they actually fit into categories. I could probably make a chart of a bell 20 things that people post online about and drop most people's posts into those categories. And it happens. An example would be if someone comes on line to ask a question about getting some sort of an accessibility pass for a theme park, I can in my sleep with my eyes closed, tell you exactly how that thread is going to go. I know exactly who will. I know that some people will give you good factual information about it. Some people will come in to support you. And they seem like they're just, this is a great moment for them to feel like, Oh, I got one of those passes one time, I'm glad I'm not like I'm not a loser. You know what I mean? Like, other people need this too. There are hangry people that come in to say that you're not disabled. I'm not disabled. I have type one. I mean, I swear to you, it plays like a, it plays like a song that I've heard 1000 times. But always different people.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:59
Yes. Well, you know, it's so interesting, because I, in anticipation of our chat today, I went on to your Facebook page and searched for posts that had the word guilt in it. And happily, I actually only I mean, I only did spend a few minutes looking at this, but there were so many wonderful encouraging comments, which decreases the isolation of the posters experience of guilt, encouraging, sharing their moments of you know, that Me too, I felt this way. I did not come across any, you know, shaming posts, but I imagined that they, they might be out there. So they know you're really good about regulating that. And your page

Scott Benner 16:49
was really funny, Eric, is that I put no effort into regulating my page. Oh, okay. So where it comes from is that if it should happen, I don't just block somebody, I don't kick them out. I talk to them right there in front of everyone. And I say and then you teach the group that here the expectation is, you're going to be helpful to people. Yes. And if you're going to be sharp tongued, it better be helpful. It better be purposeful. And it better not be in anger, or just because you're out there trolling the internet, trying to get into a fight with somebody. And you get this sort of, I don't know I say this about diabetes, but I'm starting to get what I expect in my Facebook group. Because there's a core somewhere of initial listeners who wanted a Facebook group, people who said, hey, I want a private place to go to talk about what we hear on the podcast. And there were enough people there that it built a community in the in the, in the likeness of the vibe of the podcast. It's very, it's really wonderful. I can't take credit for it. It just happen. But yeah, I don't. I don't know. I don't mess around like I don't. I don't know, I don't feel weird about stuff like that. I mean, this stuff in general. There's something that happened in our life around diabetes recently that is so fresh. I'm not actually going to share it on the podcast yet. But it was an it was a situation where I could have felt guilty. And something happened. I was the gatekeeper of a good or bad decision. I made a bad decision. We've probably good reasons. I'll explain it one day on the podcast. I did it just I did the wrong thing. And it led to a problem. And everything that happened after that was my fault. It just was. But I was able to step back after the initial thing happened and say to myself, I didn't get my kid diabetes. I'm not the one that made insulin work like this. I'm not the one that you know, like I none of this is me. I'm in a bad situation, doing the best I can. I'm not a perfect person. I wasn't perfect today. I did rebound quickly, and pull it back together. But I never let myself feel guilty about it. And I was not ashamed of what I did. And I don't know why I can do that. And other people get run over by these things.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:26
Well, probably just as we've talked about in other episodes, you're kind of how you're wired and your self talk and your resilience. I did notice like you as you mentioned, you know you did not give you did not create diabetes you know in in Arden and there was nothing that you could or could not do to prevent her from getting it and I did notice was as I searched for, you know guilt in the in the Facebook group, that there. That was obviously the initial guilt that that a caregiver might experience is this What did I do? What did I not do? How did my child get this type of guilt? And I think then you go through a type of a period of time where you learn and you have more education around diabetes psychoeducation around kind of what what can you manage what can you not manage. And then I think where you are going also is this idea of, you know, perfection, this expectation of perfection that we are human and we are going to make mistakes, you know, we're talking about in general care, mom guilt, but then with this diabetes aspect, you know, you cannot expect perfection because then that leads to the guilt and all you know, all of the feelings around shame, and then you can also you don't want to pass that on either to your child because you're trying to model that so you have that pressure as well.

Scott Benner 21:05
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You know, I just saw somebody the other day had a an illness, probably lifelong that they were unaware of. And now it's caused a real problem for them. And what struck me about it was that for decades, they didn't know this thing was happening. So they couldn't feel guilty about it while it was happening, they couldn't feel pressure about it. But with diabetes, you immediately are made aware that less than perfect blood sugars are going to lead at some point to some sort of a deficit somewhere, like you're not, you don't I mean, like diabetes is one of those things that most of us are not getting out of unscathed. Somehow. And on top of that, you might be one of the lucky ones who have multiple autoimmune issues. You know, and I think when people are first diagnosed, there's this feeling that if I just do this perfectly, yes, it's going to be a pain, and we're gonna have to do insulin, and we're gonna have to be careful and etc. But the outcome for my kid or for me, is going to be exactly the same as if I never had diabetes. And I just don't think that that's a realistic goal. I think you can, I think you can and will mitigate things. And I think that it's very possible for especially with today's technology for people to live, pretty free of complications, but it's going to happen to somebody. And it's not your fault. Do you really mean like, not everybody's prepared to do this thing the same way. But everybody gets the guilt, it doesn't matter how well they're doing. I swear to you, Erica, most of the emails I get are from people with six A onesies who are killing themselves. It's not a five, four. It's never from somebody who has a nine that wants a six.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 26:46
Right, right. Right. So and So what Yeah, then what is their expectation, the amount of pressure they're putting on themselves? Is that realistic? are they experiencing lack of sleep stress? How are their you know, how are their general? What's the general functioning? And maybe they can do all that, and they're succeeding in life. But that just feels like a lot of hard work? And

Scott Benner 27:11
is it really? I mean, isn't it obvious that when you put so much effort into one thing, there's not enough time or bandwidth to put that effort into other places?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:22
Yes, yeah. Yes. I mean, I think what and I think they're also just to be mindful of, you know, the seasons of living with type one. They're there, I think, the way you respond and feel like you need to do all the things that you should and could be doing to control it as as the caregiver for your child. It I think it ebbs and flows. And so I think just being mindful of that to the post diagnosis, you know, trauma, and then there's the transitions and your child going through puberty and then off to high school off to college. I think there are different seasons to where maybe as a caregiver, you experience higher levels of guilt and pressure, as each new kind of a new chapter unfolds with the with the care.

Scott Benner 28:13
So how do how do you? Is there a way to give the guilt away? Can you get rid of it? Or some people just? Well, you know what, I'm going to ask a different question. And then I'll ask about getting rid of the guilt. Do some people late lean into it? Is that like a martyr complex? Are those things not connected?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:39
i That's a good question. I feel like if you're leaning into the guilt, I think there's there's a healthy level right to responding to that guilt. Because if you are doing something, quote, bad or wrong, or you're making a mistake, and you're feeling that, that gut feeling of guilt, I think it's a healthy response to be aware of that and check it and say, Okay, well, maybe we could have corrected this way, this time. And I'm going to do that and then I'm going to move forward and not kind of sit and swim in that guilt. Because then then you're then you're flirting with all the shame. I think if you're if you're leaning into it over and over, I would I would be curious as to what what are you getting out of that type of behavior? What's the function? Are you getting? Are you getting the love that you're feeling like you want or attention from family members? Are you posting frequently about your guilt on social media? And you're needing that connection? I think that's all really normal now and again, but I think just having that awareness piece of why are you leaning into that? What are you getting out of that and how and Is that healthy?

Scott Benner 29:59
Could it Be could it be learned or generational? What do I mean? I'll use myself. Yes, you can, right? Because like, like, for instance, uh, you know, I grew up in a blue collar household expectations where you'd have a blue collar job. I never once thought I wouldn't. I never once thought I wouldn't. I ended up working in a sheetmetal shop, I did a laborer shop like my father did. My mom was a cashier, you know what I mean? In a place, she didn't have a very high level position. I was doing what I was expected to do. And not that there's anything wrong with other shops. And I really don't mean that, but I didn't fit there. But yet, that's right where I went, I got what I expected. And it wasn't until it wasn't until the I mean, maybe it was guilt. Maybe I felt badly for doing something I knew I shouldn't be doing, I don't know. But I realized one day I was like, I have to go, I think there's more for me, or something different, even not even more like I just don't think I fit here. And I'm gonna go find out where I fit. And I was able to get to that. But there are plenty of other people who get put into situations over and over again, generationally, you see generational wealth, discrepancies, health discrepancies, right? People just get caught in a loop. And if you grew up with a mom who guilted you and she grew up with a mom that guilted you, is there any way that you're not going to guilt yourself when something like this happens?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:32
But yes, there is a way I think the pattern is certainly can be learned and you're it's being modeled for you. And that's how you see if you're seeing your parent respond to that kind of psychological discomfort. And she's, and you know, he or she is verbalizing out loud how, how bad she is, and she's never going to do be good enough. You were that is probably, you might replicate that type of behavior when you feel like you've done something wrong. And of course, that can be corrected by pride that I no go back to the first step is just having that awareness like oh my gosh, this is this is what I do when I feel like I do something wrong. I feel badly. And then I shamed myself. And I want to stop that. And so the self awareness piece is huge. And being open to that if people are reflecting that to you. Yeah,

Scott Benner 32:29
you know, your point about the modeling things, I have two younger brothers, one is five years younger than me, one is 10 years younger than me, the one who's five years younger, has a job that's more blue collar and labor like, and that's the kind of job I had when he went out into the world as an adult. And I was basically a father figure. By the time my youngest brother went out into the world, I had a more white collar job, and he has a more white collar job. And I wonder, excuse me, I bang to the microphone, which is not something I normally do. I, I sometimes wonder if it wasn't that idea, like, oh, I there's here are the other options that exist, I'll go follow one of those. Sometimes just knowing that it's possible, which is why I like doing an episode like this, I like people being able to hear that, it's actually possible for you not to feel this way. And for you not to, you know, keep the cycle going. You know, it's a kind of like a trite thing to say at this point. And it's been overused and overused, but you can be the one who stops it. And I think if you're the parent of someone with type one, or you know, somebody with another issue, there could possibly be no more important time to stop it. Because you were just guilted and your pancreas worked. You know what I mean? Like your kid, if you pass this on to your kid, there gonna be other issues, and they're going to be they're going to be a lot more serious than just how you feel in your head, I think.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:54
And yes, and I think, you know, as a caregiver of a child with type one, I think, to expect that it will happen, you will make mistakes, and you will probably feel guilty about it. And that's okay, too, that it's not this abnormal, wrong response. And so when you are experiencing that to say, oh, okay, this is normal, I'm not alone. And I'm going to I'm going to learn and I'm going to kind of course correct or gather more data, to figure out how to do whatever it is do do it differently next time. And then and then the thoughts and there. And I think being aware also if you're susceptible to the outside influences, maybe it's not appropriate to go post about that. Or to unless unless you feel like you're it's a safer, smaller Are you are you were, you know that it's going to be a safer response. I think just being aware of who are you going to go tell and talk to about that feeling of guilt Being aware of that. Yeah, if you're susceptible to the influences, yeah.

Scott Benner 35:03
Okay, I want to before we move on, I just want to be clear that the episode is going to be called mom guilt, because I think it's what people think of. But I don't believe it's gender specific. I think dads feel just as guilty that if you grew up with your grandmother, and she was your custodian, she feels just as guilty. You know, he she, I don't think you should I don't think it matters, honestly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:24
Yeah. And I yeah, I think as we mentioned, the beginning, it doesn't matter. We all as human beings experience it, I probably use she because I'm a she, I go.

Scott Benner 35:33
So no, I refer to that yet. I just want to make because I, you know, I'm thinking about it, as we're getting ready to move into kind of the second half of the recording. And I'm, and I'm just thinking, I want to I want to be really clear, I think there I have, you know, there are things that I feel guilty about. I process it differently, though. And I get, I don't know, if I, if I'm, if I'm actually giving it away, and just getting rid of it out into the ether. Or if I hide it differently, or if it comes out differently, like I have no idea. I think the most fascinating thing about us is we really don't know why we're doing what we're doing. Like everybody feels like. And I think that's why it's weird to talk about fixing these things or making them better. Because all these things happen. So kind of invisibly, and then suddenly, something in your life triggers you into thinking, wow, I have to not do this. And then now all of a sudden, you're trying to consciously stop a thing that kind of subconsciously happened. And those seem like two worlds that don't overlap for some reason to me.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:38
Right. And yeah, it is such an internal process that happens so quickly. I think before you know, it you could be in it is living and breathing shame, which could then it can affect your overall mental health. If left unchecked, it can, you know, prevent you from connecting with your children or other family members or friends. And so I think that's I appreciate you know that we're focusing on this too, because it is it's just so common and so normal.

Scott Benner 37:14
I think I think too, you can see people sometimes in in an attempt to get rid of their guilt or shame, they just go the opposite way too far to like apathy. And they just decide they don't care about anything. And the way that I won't feel badly about is if I don't care about it. Yes. And that's just probably more dangerous, because you've said a number of times guilts actually kind of valuable. It really is. I don't even know if listen. They're I don't even know if there's not a function for shame, sometimes. You know what I'm saying? Like they're like, I mean, if you're deep enough in a hole, I don't know how you get out of it. Like, do you sometimes need someone to look at you and go, Hey, you know, pull it together? Like, you know, like, I don't know, I have no idea. Maybe it works. For some people. It doesn't work for other people. You know, you hear people say that they feel shamed about their bodies, but then other people will tell you, I was in poor health until a friend of mine came along and pushed me in a way that I don't think society would have been comfortable with. But here I am. And I'm better. So I don't I don't know what the hell the answer is. I have no idea. I just think that if you're hearing this, and you felt this guilt, especially around diabetes, it's just very important to, I would think to say out loud or write down on a piece of paper or share with a friend, that this is not my fault. I didn't do this. I didn't make diabetes. It's not my fault. My kid has it. Just because I have I don't know, a thyroid problem doesn't mean I gave it to my kids. That's genetics. You know what I mean? Like, never once I've never once heard somebody say, Oh, it's my fault. They have blonde hair. Yeah. But your kid gets diabetes. And all of a sudden, oh, my mom, my grandmother has celiac. This is my fault. You know, that's just silly. So, it but it's how people feel?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 39:06
Well, yeah, because I think going back to our, you know, your instinctive, protective feelings. We as a parent, you feel like you, you should do all the things that you can do to protect your child from experiencing pain. And with chronic illness, diagnosis, you, you feel like what did I not do to protect them? How did I prove how can I prevent this and then, and then maybe you realize, you go through the process of acceptance, like okay, I've, I accept that I was not able to, I didn't control this diagnosis. And then maybe if you're kind of if you lean towards those thoughts and feelings, okay, well, now I need to do everything I can to prevent them from having any complications. And you're driven by that fear, which then drives all of your actions and responses. So

Scott Benner 39:59
um, So if you have a kid, and the kid can't hit a baseball, you don't feel guilty that they can't, the kid can't hit a baseball, you take them out via tea, you try and teach them how to swing, it all feels like it's accomplishable. Maybe with diabetes, the guilt comes because you know, at the end of this path, you you're not going to find a magic wand, it gets rid of diabetes, I wonder, I wonder if guilt doesn't push the philanthropy around diabetes, even like that feeling of like, I can't cure this, let me try to help the bigger picture. Because that's, it's really interesting. Everything that comes up in your life, if you're reasonably healthy, you I think you will believe you can overcome it, or that there may be a path out of it. And that, you know, not giving up might be the answer. But yeah, but there's nothing about a disease that gives you that feeling.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:51
Well, and I think the interesting, like, does guilt drive the philanthropy I'm gonna do all that I can to protect my child, I would say yes, and with that is the fear, right, like the fear of wanting to protect your child even further from further pain. And I think what you were saying earlier, you know, the odds are good that your child is going to be okay, if you're doing all the things as best to your ability, you know. And the fear can be driving those, the guilt as well, a lot along with, you know, this, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do the all I can, as best I can. And then also, to prevent the guilt, I'm going to practice some self compassion. And be kind to myself, when I when I, we, you know, we were too we over bolused or corrected too strongly. And we're going to learn from that.

Scott Benner 41:48
I wonder if there are times when I wonder if my ability to let it go? If that's not actually I don't know what the word would be, like some sort of a defense mechanism, or if it's not, like an overabundance of self confidence that maybe I don't even deserve, you know, or whatever. Like, like that idea of like, I couldn't have done anything about this. It's not my fault. And that and that, you know, because you can look at that a different way, like I do, listen, I do believe that I examined that situation, a number of them before and I said, Okay, this is what happened, happened here, here, here. Here's my mistake, you know, okay, then this happened. And then here's where I pulled my back together again, and I got back on course, and then it's how we fix this. So as much as I might have been, and the fault, I'm using quotes around fault. It's just that there were too many variables. And, and I was distracted, on top of them, right. And so I just didn't, there were just I got, I'll be able to talk about it at some point. But there was, there were too many things going on, it got beyond my ability. And I did not know that was happening. And as soon as it became a dire focused situation again, and I was able to shut out surrounding, you know, variables, I was back to the person I needed to be in that situation, and bla bla bomb, we're good. So but isn't that life, though? Yes, you know, you know, things are happening constantly. And how do you give your full attention to something? And? And isn't it easy for? I don't know, like, I mean, there's, there's such a randomness?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 43:35
Well, I think also, like, perhaps you get comfortable in, in the management. And well, I'm, I'm not a caregiver to a child with type one, I am a parent. And I think just aside from the caregiver guilt, with diabetes, mere making maybe making decisions, and you're kind of going through the motions of the evening, and then oops, you let your child do something that you didn't, wouldn't normally have them do. And then you feel like, Oh, I really shouldn't have done that. Or I should have said that. And then you kind of check yourself and say, Okay, I was not focused or as you said, there are all these other kind of variables and you retired, maybe you're planning something, and I get like the caregiver fear or the guilt around while we I Bolus too much and now my child is low. And I'm fearful that or they can have a seizure in a result of something that I did, I gave them X amount of units. I mean, that is that is real fear. And I get that it can be real guilt. And just in those moments to just try, you know, as as you're being aware of like, Oh, yes, I do feel that, that guilt. And I've seen y'all post about it too. And then and then the next step is, gosh, I made a mistake. And that was really scary, my child's Okay, thankfully. And I'm going to move forward and I'm going to be kind to myself into that I get to practice, I get to model that for my child to to say, Wow, we made it, you know, we over bolused. And then we made a mistake. And that was scary. Like we're okay,

Scott Benner 45:19
I hate to say life is like the the spinning plates trick and anesthesia, like you put a stick up, you get a plate spinning on it. And then they run over and they grab another stick and they stand up and they get another plate spinning and they get as many spinning plates as they can. And they basically are running back and forth from plate to plate keeping them spinning so they don't fall off. I almost think of that as like autopilot. Sometimes you were talking about like, even with regular parenting, like sometimes just the something's going well. And so you take your attention away from it. But you know, one day, right, like the plate, you're not going to make it back to that plate. And then it's going to crash down, you're gonna have to start over again, we used to have this joke we told about my youngest brother used to say Rob is either in trouble or getting in trouble and you haven't found out about it yet. Yeah, two states of trouble. It was happening currently, or, or he was putting it into motion. And that's just sort of, you've got all those plates spinning. And while you're spinning the one, it's hard not to stand there and think the third plate from the right needs attention. And the end, and I can't do all of this. And I do think that being being a good parent is going to constantly put you in that feeling. Right? And so the real truth is, I think you have to be able to stand there and reconcile with yourself. One of these plates is going to fall. My job isn't to keep them all spinning. My job is to keep as many of them as possible from falling. And maybe we'll get lucky and the ones that crashed down aren't the real expensive ones. And yeah, right. But but there's no I don't know, I think that there's comfort in knowing that there's no perfection. Yes, that's all I mean, that yes, comforted by.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:15
Yeah, there's Yeah, you cannot expect perfection in yourself as a parent as a person living with type one that obviously then leads to all that, you know, the distress and the shame. And I think just it happens even, you know, myself with type one, I'll be trying to juggle multiple things, and I'll mindlessly Bolus and realize, Oh, my goodness, or I Bolus twice sometimes, because I have forgotten and there's so many things going on to say Oh, well, now I get I'm gonna correct for that. And I'm not going to do I'm going to be more mindful next time. You know, it happens,

Scott Benner 47:54
you know, people do that thing where they, you know, they're MDI, at the end of the night, it's time for them to give themselves 1015 20 units of, of Basal insulin and they just grabbed their fast acting insulin instead and put it in, I see a post about that monthly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:12
You know, I will I hopefully he's okay. My brother, who also has type one, he he was at home with his children, while his his wife was away for the weekend. And he was, you know, he's a he's a very hands on dad, but I think this contributed he was managing all the bedtime routine. He gave himself his he wears a Dexcom but does MDI. And he gave himself as, you know, whatever, 10 units of Lantus and then did it again an hour later that forgot 10 Because he just you know, juggling and then he was you know, poor thing was up eating all night long. But it happened it happens and, and then you get to you probably feel badly and you see, but I made a mistake, and I'm gonna I'm gonna practice being more a little bit more mindful next time and that's okay.

Scott Benner 49:00
I think my point about all this is, is just that. Most days it's gonna be Oh, hold on none of this is gonna matter if I die while making the pot.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 49:13
You're gonna make it Oh, am I gonna

Scott Benner 49:17
make I ran out a hot home I was I drank. I think my point is that

whether it's life or diabetes, or anything in between, it's all not going to go right. And you doing emotional damage to yourself when you don't need to. Because something that was never going to be perfect anyway isn't perfect. You really are doing yourself and your family and the people around you a disservice. Now you might not be doing it on purpose, but you can you can recognize it on purpose, and try to help yourself on purpose. I'm not saying you're ever going to get rid of it completely. But big stuff, right? Like chopping it. It's almost like diabetes, like chopping out the lows and the highs, and trying to find less variability, whether it's in your mental health, your day to day life, or type one diabetes, that's really what's most important. You're not trying to live with a blood sugar of 85 Forever, your blood sugar may get low, it may get high, the key is to recognize it before it gets out of whack, and bring it back again. So if you've listened to the podcast, that's how I talk about diabetes. And if you're really paying attention to the podcast, you know that I talked about diabetes, the way I think about being alive. And so, I mean, I'm not the end all be all on anything, but I think you just shave off the highs, shave off the lows, try to stay in the middle as much as you can. And that's well done. You know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:49
yes, and no, and then, you know, learning how to course correct, I think, you know, when you think about it in the mental health perspective, the the term means being mentally having mental health fitness, that doesn't mean that you're going to be happy all the time. It means or having a straight line all the time. It means it means okay, you recognize when you're feeling low, or when that you know, the feelings are kind of becoming consuming. And then knowing how to course correct does it mean, going out, talking to a friend exercising, reaching out for help from a mental health professional practice doing some yoga and mindfulness accepting those challenging thoughts? It's, you know, understanding how to get back to, as you say, you know, in the middle of less highs, less lows, I think the same thing can be applied to being you know, having that mental health fitness, and it takes practice.

Scott Benner 51:43
Yeah, really does it? I really, I shudder to think that I was gonna say it's about the journey, not the destination, but but it really is it? I mean, and it my kid asked me the other day, like, what's the key to life? Like, what's the most important things in life? And I answered differently than I would have answered 10 years ago, and maybe differently than I would have answered 20 years before that. And I just said, it's health. It's, it's achieving the best level of health that you can. I was like, everything else is secondary. People who are healthy and don't have, well, we're all dying, right? But people who don't, people who don't have day to day knowledge of the deterioration of their body, those people have, I mean, I pay for that. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not even saying that they're just, they're super healthy, and I'm not, or my daughter's not, or etc, I'm just saying that they are not aware of their mortality constantly. And I, that's a gift, I would love to give somebody, you know, like, because it's all going to end reasonably the same for everybody. But knowing it's happening as it's happening, sucks. And then that makes every decision, every mistake, just feel so much bigger. Because you know, you know the outcome suddenly, right, like you have you have, you have cause and effect that's been laid out in front of you by a doctor, by your experiences. And if I do this, if I don't use enough insulin, my blood sugar is gonna get high and my body is gonna deteriorate quickly. If I use too much insulin, my blood sugar, just gonna get low, I might have a seizure, I might die. You know, when a person has a beer at a bar, they don't think about their liver. You don't even think like right when you smoke a cigarette at a club, but you're not really a smoker, you don't think oh, I probably just lost three minutes of my life. You know, it's you don't have to have those thoughts and therefore you don't get the guilt from it. I don't know I could be you know, Erica, these conversations are basically about me being wrong. And you taught me

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:50
I'm still just impressed that one of your children asked, you know, what's what's the key to life?

Scott Benner 53:56
Well, I think he thought it was money, by the way. But he just fresh from college a couple days graduation, and he's sitting around trying to figure out what to do next. Yes, you know, and he's like, Well, what's the most important thing what's the thing I should be focused on? And he said, like, it's money and I was like, That's not that's health. It's health and security and the access to clean good food. Like like it's that's what it's about. It's about love and, and connections. And you know, caring about somebody more than you care about yourself. Like I think that's what's that's what I think life's about.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:33
Yes. And and being kind to yourself in the process as you navigate all of that. Yeah,

Scott Benner 54:39
right. Right. Not doing the martyr thing, which which came up earlier, and we never really talked about it but happens constantly. I sit listen, I hate to say I see people online constantly doing that. It just like everything's going wrong, but I'm trying so hard. This would all fall apart without me. Like that whole thing you guys. Like that's, I don't know, I'm sure That's a completely different topic. But it's common. I see it done commonly.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:06
Yeah, well, I think yeah, that is kind of going into is that a component, a part of, you know, the diabetes distress feeling powerless in the process of the management, whether you're the caregiver or the person with type one is that? Are you? Are you getting a lot of attention? As a result of that? And is that meeting an unmet need that you're getting elsewhere? I think there are probably many different ways is, you know, is it learned is that you're not aware, there's no self awareness of how often you're feeling that guilt and posting or talking about, it

Scott Benner 55:45
looks like a coping mechanism. To me, it looks like somebody saying, I can't affect the outcome. And knowing that is making me crazy. So I'm going to pretend that we're doing everything right. So it's almost like it's like, one of those people that they played music on the deck of the Titanic while it was sinking. Like that's, that's what it feels like, to me. It's like, Alright, look, this boat is going to sink. I don't want to think about it to my assets, the water. So I'm going to project this confidence. And I find it I'm going to be honest with you, I see people do it in the in the in the space. I don't think it's I think it's not just not valuable, I think it's detrimental? You know, I would for me, I'd rather I'd rather face something head on, do my best to defeat it. If it kills me kills me. But I'm not going to shut my eyes and hope it doesn't get me you know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 56:40
Yeah, so it is, as you say, is it a coping mechanism in terms of trying to avoid? Is it avoiding kind of the fear? Or is it avoiding the truth of whatever other emotion and so it just feels easy? Or over time to kind of put your hands in the air, defeatist, powerless? Those are all, you know, that cannot be associated with just having type one or diabetes. Two. So I think it's tricky to, to specifically categorize it, but it probably all those things.

Scott Benner 57:17
Oh, I think in some way or another, we've mentioned pretty much every reaction to diabetes that I've seen other people have, yes, yeah, it's either the I can do it. Or let's pretend it's gonna be okay. Or this is a show and I give up and let's like, was, like the whole thing on fire and see how long I'll tell you what, you know, going back 20 years, and you know, this, you've had diabetes for three decades or more? Yes, before all this technology, and the good insulin and the glucose monitors. This was basically live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse, like a lot of people took that perspective with diabetes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:56
Yeah, it was, you know, two or three injections a day, if that prick your fingers three to four times and hope for the best. So that was 32 will be 32 years this summer.

Scott Benner 58:07
But but there are people who listen, I've interviewed a number of them, they were just like, I knew this wasn't going to be I was going to be dead. That's what I thought. So I live like that. And there were no real tools to do anything with them, they somehow lived long enough for the tools to get better. And then it slowed their progression down. And now they live with a lot of complications. I think that this right here, in this time period might be the last generation of type ones who started in a different management time and ended in a more advanced one. Like I think, yes, you know what I mean, going forward, everyone's going to start hopefully, you know, I don't want to curse but insurance and, you know, having access aside, people who have access should not experience those outcomes with as much frequency.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 59:04
Yes, and I recently just saw some stats on that I'm not going to repeat them, because I don't want to say it incorrectly, but the percentage of complications from people who were diagnosed, I think it was 30 to 40 years ago, versus like, in the last 10 years, the percentage has, it has decreased. So significantly, it was very encouraging to see and so maybe I'll find a stat so next time, I can report that because it was it was pretty amazing. And I think as a lot of people do say, Well, you never want to be diagnosed with diabetes. You know, now is a good time this, you know, age and era of, of technology and community. Really, those are two significant factors

Scott Benner 59:50
for physical and mental health. Yeah, exactly. I can't I can't tell you how much I believe in it and the community side of it, and it's the truth be told like it's It's not something that I even thought about in the beginning.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:04
Like I just did the community aspect of this

Scott Benner 1:00:07
assay for people with it. Yes, even even you've heard me say before, like, I thought of the podcast is like a management podcast. And a great many people that listen to it. Think of it as a community.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:17
Oh, yeah, I mean that the Facebook page is definitely evidence of that. Yeah. I want to say pretty incredible.

Scott Benner 1:00:25
Well, yeah, I agree. I think it is, it's, it's the right place I, you know, bright thing at the right time really worked out. So listen, if I was gonna be like a coach at the end, and y'all rah, rah, rah, and like, go get on boys and everything like that. What I will tell you is whether you're being shamed by somebody, or you're feeling guilt, it's taking up your time, it's taking up your compute cycles, it's probably making you feel terrible. Turn it into action. Like don't waste that time on something that's got no end if you can help it. And if you can't help it, go find somebody that can help you. Like you might need mental health tools. Maybe you don't have that, like maybe you get from the podcast, you know, bolusing tools, and that, but what we were just talking about, about the possibility of being healthy for a lifetime with diabetes, like focus on that, like, if you want to make yourself crazy about something, make yourself crazy about that. Not about what was me this this all over? Here we go like you don't you mean? Like, it's just, this isn't what I wanted. It's not what I expected. Like, you got to get past that part. Like something else was gonna happen. Like, life's never what you expect? I mean, okay, is your life the way you expect it was gonna be?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:01:37
No, it's not I know, you, I know you've said before, to like, you don't have a child expect. expecting that they're going to be diagnosed with something or have a major challenge, you know, you give birth to a child and hope that everything will be perfect,

Scott Benner 1:01:50
giving birth to the centerfielder for the Yankees, like, right, like it's gonna dance on, you know, everybody's gonna be brilliant. And every you know, so it didn't work out quite like that. No reason to give up, you're still here. You're still here. This is your shot. You don't even like, let's say, I don't know, I swear there's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:10
a season for any for all of it. And to kind of understand that, that's, there are seasons and I hear you say, like, try and push through that and move forward and get the help that you need. That whatever, you're feeling stuck when you're feeling stuck in that whatever it

Scott Benner 1:02:24
is, because that that stuck feeling that like, I mean, it's just, it's, it's the devil, right? Like, I mean, you get into this place where you're just like, it's comfortable. You see it with eating, sometimes, like, people start off, you know, get into a poor eating cycle. And then they just, they lean into it, it's comfortable, right? The carbs get a hold of you're like, Oh, sugar, fat, I love this. Like, and you just, you're like, Oh, I'm gaining weight, I don't feel as well, whatever, you can't eat it say, you almost can't even make yourself care. It's It's It's, It's intoxicating.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:02:59
Yeah, shame, shame, as it can be really cruel and nasty like that. Yeah. So is there when you're attuned to it.

Scott Benner 1:03:07
So if someone comes to you and and exhibits these, either shame or guilt around diabetes, where do you lead them first, like give them an idea of what would happen if they reached out to a mental health professional?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:03:23
I will, I first would applaud them and commend them for reaching out because it's often the hardest thing to do. Because you've, you've recognized that you need help, and it can be scary to take that first step. So we would, I would, you know, commend them on that taking that first bold step. And then we would spend time practicing that self awareness around how frequently are you feeling those those thoughts of real have probably shame at that point? What are the triggers? Are there are they is it around a specific issue? Is it global shame, you're not a good enough parent, you're not a good enough coworker, not a good enough spouse, you know, sometimes it is can be specific. In all of the roles that you play in life, it could also be global. So we'd spend some time kind of recognizing that. And then maybe moving into some mindful ness of accepting that there will be moments kind of all the things that we've talked about. There will be moments where I feel guilty and not placing judgment around that acknowledging it, accepting some of those thoughts and feelings, and then moving into more healing and kind of corrective work around the changing your thoughts and getting the support that you need. I think because shame does lead to isolation and it likes to keep you there. And so by stepping out getting help with a mental health professional stepping out into being more open about it with your family and friends, and and just feeling less isolated. And that is one of the best tools as well, that you're not alone in the in that space,

Scott Benner 1:05:08
I would think that it's probably important to recognize that, you know, guilt and shame are not, they're not things that they're not things that you get when something goes wrong, everybody has them. You don't even like to sit here and think, Oh, I do feel very guilty, or you know about my kid getting diabetes, or I am ashamed of how I manage their blood sugar, that kind of thing. If you think you feel that and other people don't. That's not the case. I would think that. I mean, I'm guessing here, but I don't think you could find one in 1000 people who don't feel guilt or shame. And so it's not about trying to avoid it. It's about living with it. Like you even said before, like you can use the guilt, the guilt can be a motivator. And how much of it is even shame. Like how much of it is the way you take it in? Versus how it comes at you. Is that is that controllable?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:06:05
And the way you how much candy the way you take it in versus how what was the second part?

Scott Benner 1:06:10
Like? The way you take it in versus how you? I don't know, like how you respond to it. I guess like, like, if somebody's trying to make me feel ashamed about something. They couldn't do that. I wouldn't allow it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:06:25
Right. Because you're you're you have the built in self talk. Right? And whether by nature and nurture you you do. Yeah. And if

Scott Benner 1:06:33
I if I if I if I should feel ashamed about something? I'm already aware of it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:06:41
You've already led yourself there, don't worry.

Scott Benner 1:06:45
And so yeah, Scott's got it all covered. I know what I've done wrong. Okay. So it's like, you can't you can't do that to me. I've already and I think that's a preemptive way of handling your mental health, which is you can't ignore things. You just sort of have to look at them, assess them, be honest with yourself and say, All right, well, we're all still alive. I gotta keep going. You know what I mean? Like now if I, you know, if I stand up and do something heinous right now, maybe I can't get past that. But I don't I live my life very simply. I'm gonna tell you something. When my kids asked me what the key to life is, when they were younger, I said, I said, Well, here's what I do. I don't lie unless I have to. And I treat people the way I want to be treated as often as I can. And I don't feel bad about anything that doesn't follow those two rules I'm doing, I'm doing my best. I have good intentions every day. And so if something doesn't go right, or my intentions can't cover everyone, well, then that's what it is. I'm not gonna sit back here and feel badly about it. And if somebody doesn't, you know, to be more specific, if there are people listening this podcast who don't like it, and some of them are happy to tell me. And I read their reviews. And I think, well, it's not for them. I never once think I should stop doing this, you know, and it I see who it helps, it helps more people than it doesn't help. It's a valuable thing. I wouldn't spend five seconds worrying about the alternative.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:08:19
Well, and that is a result also boundaries, right of having healthy boundaries around your mindset.

Scott Benner 1:08:28
Yeah, well, listen, I don't want to be, you know, like, you know, but let me just say this. Think of all the people you know, how many of them do you trust? So what are you gonna start worrying about people you don't know, for coming and saying things to you, I saw something in the Facebook group recently. That was, was, you know, it happens once in a while, like someone, I'm gonna give a very like, generalized. Like, someone comes out and describes, this is a cat. And then someone says, Yes, that is a cat. And they go, I can't believe you said that to me. Don't come on and tell me that, you know, my family treats me like this. And when on somebody else's value where your family is terrible, don't go you can't speak about my family like that was like, well, you came here, you described a terrible situation. And now I'm agreeing with you, and trying to support you. And suddenly, you don't want me to tell you the cat's a cat. Like, well, then I don't know what to do here. And I never feel that way. Like I just feel like, Just be honest. And take honest responses from people do take the ones you want. Like, I'm not going to tell you that there haven't been some reviews that I've read. And I thought that person's right. You know, I mean, if you if you don't go back and listen to eight years of this podcast and see that in 2022 that the split of me speaking to the guests speaking is more 5050 than it was in the beginning. Well, you're not you know, I've learned so I mean, somebody said that to me. Two years ago, like you didn't you talk too much? And at first I was like, Alright, fair enough? You know, I'll see what I can do about it. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:10:07
yeah, beat your open. Like, again, that's the boundaries like of knowing when when is it appropriate to let something in? And when is it not? Yeah. And I think that the Facebook posts you just described, that maybe that feels like, I think just going back to the awareness of, if you are feeling a certain emotion, I know, we're talking specifically about guilt here. But if you're posting something, and you're responding differently, then maybe you're that person was looking for something different, right? And a need was not met in that other person's response. But just going back to that awareness of cash, I'm posting so much about this guilt, and it's not changing. I think that really is the, you know, the first step in trying to help yourself, but also normalizing and validating for yourself that it's going to happen, right?

Scott Benner 1:10:58
I want to say to that, you know, as we use examples from like a Facebook group, that people could be like, Oh, that's online, it's, trust me, I've been looking at it for years, it is a reflection of how people feel, it's actually an honest reflection of how they feel because they feel anonymous to some degree. And so this is their one chance to get this. This unburden themselves. Sometimes. It's, you know, forget it being a Facebook post. It's it's a person's thought. And then it's how they respond to other people around them. I don't know, I My point was that people don't have real control over how you feel if you don't let them. And I don't know the secret to that. I just know it's true. Like there, there are probably I was talking to somebody recently, and you probably have to go. But I was talking to somebody recently, who runs another Facebook group. And they said, I don't like it when people speak poorly about my Facebook group. And I was like, Why do you care? And I said, Aren't you you're helping all these people, right? And I said, Yeah, I said, Well, somebody doesn't like the way you do it. Like, who cares? And I said, don't you think that there are other people in the world who don't agree with you? And I said, you're just not aware of them. But they don't. It's the same. It's just like when my kids asked me about, like, when cyber bullying first happened, like you don't think of it but as technology changes, you know, things happen in the zeitgeist that become more real cyber bullying is one of those things. I told my kids I was like, don't look, it doesn't exist. And I'm like, what I was like, there could be someone in the backyard right now. Telling, I don't know the birds. What an owl I am. I don't hear him, it ain't happen. And, and I said, Now, if it becomes real in your life, you know what I mean? Like, that's obviously a different story. But the idea that everyone's gonna like you, or agree with you. I don't even know why people would expect that. Like, Have I ever told you how when I first met my wife, she said, Do you know some people really don't like you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:12:58
I don't know if you shared that with me. She goes, she goes,

Scott Benner 1:13:01
some people love you. And some people really don't like you. And I said, Yeah, I know. And she used the person as an example. And it was a person that I generally don't have a lot of respect for. To begin with. I didn't know they didn't like me. But they're a person like I would not model myself after. And my answer to her was, what would it say about me? If he did like me? I'm glad he doesn't like me. I mean, looking at who he is, that's not the kind of person I would want to agree with who I am. And I don't know, I just felt like that since I was young.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:13:33
You know, anyway, so that's, that's yeah, that's those are your boundaries and kind of protective measures?

Scott Benner 1:13:39
I don't. I don't test them any more or less than someone else does. Which makes me feel like anyone could put themselves in that position. I just don't know how to tell them to do it. I don't know.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:13:53
About Yes. And you but I think over. I mean, I know we could keep going but I think it's just over your lifetime, too. You've learned how to protect yourself in those ways. Just based on the anecdotes I've heard over. Times together. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:14:08
Hands up. bariga bob and weave you don't I mean? Yeah. Where the swings are coming from and just get out. I don't know. Anyway, I wish everybody a ton of luck. This is an incredibly serious thing. I guilt is horrible. Shame feels horrible. I hope you can find a way not to, to to to get sucked into that vortex and I don't know.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:14:33
Good luck. Yeah, you're not alone. And reach reach out. Write help. Go Go

Scott Benner 1:14:38
wherever you can. Erica. only works in California because laws. But, but she can help you virtually Erica Forsyth. Right. Yes, that's right. Yeah. If you're a California resident, or there have to be somebody, somebody in your local area must have went to college and paid attention enough to help you go find that person.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:15:02
Thank you

Scott Benner 1:15:12
a huge thank you to one of today's sponsors, GE voc glucagon, find out more about Chivo Capo pen at G voc glucagon.com. Ford slash juicebox. you spell that GVOKEGL You see ag o n.com forward slash juicebox. To get started today with us med go to us med.com forward slash juice box or call 888721151 for your diabetes supplies. Well that can be an easy thing doesn't have to be a pain. Try us med often your blood glucose meter just gets given to you by a doctor but you have a choice and you can get a great one at contour next one.com forward slash juice box thanks so much to the Contour Next One blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast

we mentioned it in the episode but if you live in California and you'd like to use Erica, she she got a website. Erica forsyth.com Go check her out. She really is terrific. And you know what the Facebook page got mentioned a lot during this episode. It's a private group. It has 25,000 people in it now Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, you have to answer a couple of questions just so the algorithm over at Facebook knows you're a real person. And then you're right in Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes, absolutely fantastic group. I'm incredibly proud of it and I think it might be valuable to you. I think that's about it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Please remember to take care of your mental health as well as your physical health. It's all very important and one helps the other