#1035 Comparison and Blame

October 6, 2023Scott Benner

Erika and Scott enjoy a thought excercise about blame and comparison and then the conversation grows from there.

Erika is a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has had Type 1 diabetes for over 30 years and who specializes in working with people with diabetes and their families and caregivers—from those newly diagnosed to those experiencing it for decades.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1035 of the Juicebox Podcast.

I found myself wondering recently why it's such a human thing to compare stuff compare things we have or things we want or why we compare people. And why do we have to blame things? Like Why Does something have to be at fault? These are kind of two disconnected but in my mind connected ideas, I wanted to talk more about them. So I brought Erica Forsythe in to have that conversation. If you get done and you're like, oh, Erica is delightful. I'm gonna look into her services, you can check her out at Erica forsythe.com. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you're looking for support with your diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. If you'd like to get 40% off of all your cozy items, go to cozy earth.com and use the offer code juice box at checkout. And you will in fact save 40% off of your entire order.

The podcast is sponsored today by better help better help is the world's largest therapy service and is 100% online. With better help, you can tap into a network of over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists who can help you with a wide range of issues. Better help.com forward slash juicebox. To get started, you just answer a few questions about your needs and preferences in therapy. That way BetterHelp can match you with the right therapist from their network. And when you use my link, you'll save 10% On your first month of therapy. You can message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Talk to them however you feel comfortable text chat phone or video call. If your therapist isn't the right fit, for any reason at all. You can switch to a new therapist at no additional charge. And the best part for me is that with better help you get the same professionalism and quality you expect from in office therapy. But with a therapist who is custom picked for you, and you're gonna get more scheduling flexibility, and a more affordable price. Better help.com forward slash juicebox that's better help h e l p.com. Forward slash juicebox. Erica, how are you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:49
I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you? Friday? Friday? Yes,

Scott Benner 2:54
I just recorded with Jenny an hour ago. And I told her I'm going to get my toe look that and I'm going to be able to take a shower without a big plastic bag on my foot. So I'm super excited.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:05
Yes, oh my goodness, I don't even know. I had

Scott Benner 3:08
a toe surgery. And I so I have I'm wearing this giant. I mean, it's a foot condom. I don't know another way to put it. But it I have to wear it every time I get in the shower. And for the last three days. I'm like this thing is healed. I definitely don't need to keep this off of water. But I told the guy would till Friday, so I kept doing it. But anyway, tomorrow's shower is going to be include my fulfill.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:31
So good. Yes. So

Scott Benner 3:33
the people won't know. But we were supposed to start recording a series today. But instead of doing that I kind of jammed in another idea first to get to get ahead of it. I am fascinated and want to know more about why people compare things, and why they need to place blame on things. And I I've been watching it for so long now. Running that Facebook group gives me a really good insight into like, people and how they react to things. And I just want to talk about it. So I don't know a lot about it at all. I just know what I see. But I'd love for you to explain it a little bit to me, please.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:16
Sure. So I think it's interesting that you said why do people compare things and blame things? And I would maybe insert that why do people compare themselves or ourselves with one another or blame ourselves? But maybe I want to clarify are you thinking about it in that perspective? Or? Yeah, maybe in general, so

Scott Benner 4:37
I think yes. What do I want to say? Okay, so I guess like some like let's start with a couple of examples. Why do I see so many conversations that want to say that type one diabetes is worse than having type Have two diabetes. There's, there's a clear example of that. It feels like at times, there's a need to make sure people understand that I have the worst kind of diabetes. Why is that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 5:18
So I would say first and foremost, that might be how you were informed, or educated when you were diagnosed. I think, personally, 33 years ago, when I was diagnosed, I remember that language that like the type one was the harder diagnosis to have, and more life threatening. And consequently, that is a harder one to manage. I think now, I know we've we've talked about this before. Why do we do that? Now when we know that both are challenging? No one is really quote, to blame. But I think we use you know, thinking about the comparison, the social comparison, there's actually a theory that we we do this, humans do this naturally. Sometimes to make ourselves feel better. Sometimes we do it without even knowing it. And we make ourselves feel worse. But it's kind of like a it's a natural human phenomenon that we are comparing ourselves to others. And it can be a positive, right? We can do that positively and make ourselves want to get better, feel better, do better, or we can do it and make ourselves feel worse. But I think the example about the type one versus type two, I have the harder one. And in fact, just recently I was talking with somebody is not not in my practice with a call a friend. And I shared with her I had type one. And she said, Oh, I have type two. I know it's not as bad. She She offered that up to me. I say Oh, no. Like they're they're both challenging and really hard to live with. Yeah. I know. It's interesting

Scott Benner 7:07
that in that, see, that fascinates me, like, what is the need, right then in there? To let cuz she What is she doing? She's telling you? I'm not saying I have it as bad as you do. Right? Like she Yes. And yes. So that was meant kindly. Like, I know, you have a thing that's worse than me. I'm not going to challenge you about it. But But I don't understand why the brain goes to that right away. So I understand comparing for like, listen, I did it earlier today. Earlier today, I pulled up the top 20 list of podcasts in the medicine category. And I was sitting in 13th. Me a guy who makes a podcast completely by himself. And I'm looking at 13, like corporations ahead of me, like big name people with like staffs and money and like, you know, that kind of thing. And I should look at that and think, wow, look at that. I'm hanging, you know what I mean? And I do, but then the next thought is, how do I get there? How do I move up? But I'm not torturing myself about it. I actually think the podcast is good enough that it could reach enough people that we could like, float up in that top five and six. Right. So that's a comparison that I use to motivate myself. Yes, right. Yes. Right. I'm not trying to make myself feel badly. I did not feel badly when it was over. I'm absolutely happy to be 13. It's amazing. You know what I mean? So I get that I get, I get even being trying to get on a sports team and picking the person who's starting, and you're not starting and saying what is that person doing that I'm not doing? I think that's all very healthy, to be perfectly honest. And I think that part of the reason the podcast works for people is because I've chosen to, I've chosen to say, this is how we do it. Here's the success we have, I think you could do that too. Right? It's not, I'm not thumbing my nose at people and going ha ha ha my kids, they wouldn't see as this like, right. But but there, but there are people that do that. So I get that, I guess, like I understand. But But what do I mean here? It's different mindsets that read it differently, right? So if I can do that thing and say, Hey, listen, here's here's the way it works for us. I hope you can do it too. And there are plenty of people who come along and go I love that. I love that it's helpful. I love that it's giving example I'm going to strive for that. But there are also people who come and see that and go Why are you rubbing it in my face? Like that's their first their first thought? Like, like they think I'm comparing myself to them when I'm not like so why does some people read it as hopeful and other people read it as like an fu

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:58
I think It's challenging to introduce big generalizations, but I think it goes back to maybe, what is your concept of just in life around your sense of blame versus taking responsibility? Are you expecting? Perfect perfection? Are you? And if you aren't perfect, where do you go? In your mind? Are you blaming yourself and shaming yourself? Are you saying, Oh, I, I messed up here, I can take some responsibility in that area. But I'm not perfect across the board. You know, understanding that we aren't, we aren't perfect, and we are human. And being kind and compassionate to yourself, I imagine maybe people who might look at in your example of look at how to, you know, manage your type one well, and feel like you're rubbing their being, you know, you're rubbing in their face. Are they then feeling like? They're, they're shameful and blaming themselves, if they can't do it, as opposed to oh, well, maybe I can I can learn and I'm not quite there yet. I'm never going to achieve perfection, but I'm gonna make mistakes. And I can I'm okay.

Scott Benner 11:11
So their life experience informs their response, whether they know it or not. So if you grew up with a parent who was always telling you, you're not good enough, for example, or you failed a lot in your life, something like that. And then you see somebody doing what you consider to be better than you. I'm making air quotes, again, then you look at that and say, Well, I can't do this, or I don't need to be told that I'm not doing well enough. That makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 11:37
Yes. So somewhere along the lines of this, you could have been, I mean, it is common, if you've been exposed to various forms of abuse or neglect as a child, or did not have the proper encouragement and affirmation, that you are good enough. Oftentimes, someone's mindset is, I'm not good enough. I'm never going to be good enough. And no matter how hard I tried, I try, I'm always going to feel this way. And so it's easier. That's painful, but it's an it's an automatic response, when you see someone doing better than you disable, they're just, they're just being they're flaunting it. And I'm never going to be able to achieve that I'm never good enough. So they're kind of maybe stuck a little bit in that blame, and shame mentality. It's, it's painful.

Scott Benner 12:32
Yeah. And that's really, to me, that's the sadness of it is that somebody could feel like, I don't know how to put this, your life, whatever your life is, is fantastic. If you let it be, and by let it be, I mean, if you accept that this is who I am, or what I am or where I am, or whatever. And that's terrific. If you think that's true, it is true. If you stop comparing yourself to things that are unattainable for you. Right? Like, it's, it's different for me to say I have a fairly popular podcast, and I think I could make it more popular. That's reasonable. But I couldn't look at Idris Elba and say to myself, I really need to look that handsome. And then I'm going to be okay, because I look the way I look. And this is all I have, like, right? I can't make a change to that. So that to me is that's terrible to think that there are people living what they think are unfulfilled lives, when really the only thing that needs to change? Is their definition of good or success or happy or like, right, like, if you is that the idea? Like you can be happy anywhere? If you're? I don't know, do you know what I mean? Like I'm not saying like if I lived on the side of a mountain in Nepal, and I didn't have a code that I could be happy I probably could not be. But like, you know, like, reasonably speaking. It's your own expectation that's crushing. Your ability to enjoy what you have is how it feels to me. I don't know if that's right or not.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:05
And well, the expectation, that mindset, which is, you know, developed over time and evolved over time through all of your, you know, your, your family of origin, your life experiences. And I think thinking about how kind are you to yourself, have you learned that skill set to say, Gosh, I really excelled in this area, and that's amazing, but I failed in this area, but you know what, that's part of human nature. And we all fail and we all suffer we all have pain and to not get stuck in that. That you know, the thought on repeat of. I'm never going to be good enough if that's a hard thing for people to do to just hold that thought of like cache failed and that oops, like, Yeah, that's probably it, I'm gonna be kind of myself and move on that that piece is really hard to have that awareness of the thought, and then move on,

Scott Benner 15:11
right? It's sort of the idea of that, um, I forget what the number is. But they say like, every person who's achieved a millionaire status has probably gone bankrupt a number of times, on their way to it like that, trying to give people the idea that like, you can't get to it right away the first time. And I do think that that's, um, there's a saying around this that I just heard again, recently, I'm not going to remember it, but that you what you don't see about an overnight success is the 10 years of work that somebody put into it, right. And so you see somebody pop up, out of nowhere, and you think, oh, I should be able to sing a song on Tik Tok, and blah, blah, blah, you know, this all should happen to me after that. But that's not the case. Like, that's not how it happened. You're seeing the one example of that of the person who actually made it all the way. And it you can't, you can't make that happen. It just, you can, you have to, like I don't know, like, in my mind, Erica, forget telling people what to do. I think life is short. And that you should try to be happy. You know, and I get why you can't, at times, but then if you're hitting one of those roadblocks, you should, in my opinion, you should focus on how to get around that roadblock. Instead of just running into it starting over running into it starting over over and over again, like think like, obviously, what I'm trying to do is being blocked by another part of my psyche. Like, I have to fix that thing, or understand it or whatever, so that I can keep moving on my journey and try to get to this place I'm trying to get because I think I don't know if I brought this up with you or not. But this is gonna sound like a bummer for a second. I don't mean, this is a bummer. The end of my mom's life taught me that a lot of being alive is setting goals, achieving goals, and resetting goals. And that once those carrots are gone off those sticks, it's kind of difficult to find a reason to get up in the morning, if that makes sense. Like Like, once it all feels gone. Like I'm not going anywhere. What am I doing? And I don't know if that's kind of like the worker bee mentality that's born into like living things or not. But you know, if you need something to do, and I don't know, and you can't always be focused. You can't just be focused out a mile. Some of it has to be now if think about now today, with a longer goal, I think, if that makes sense or not. I also don't know if there's a question there. So good luck talking now,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:50
I think will be the goal setting moving forward in life. That might be easier for some than others. For example, if you have a perfectionistic mindset, or that you feel like you are in control of things you could you could get stuck and not wanting to move forward or evolve or try new things. Because what if you fail? What if you don't get it right the first time, then where does the blame go? You goes right back on yourself, you're gonna say, Well, gosh, I see, look, I tried and I failed. I'm not going to try again. Because look what happens every time?

Scott Benner 18:31
Well, then use that comparison thing and compare yourself to somebody doing worse than you and you'll feel terrific. That's all.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 18:40
Well, you know, they say, you know that I think both as we said in the beginning, you know, comparing quote up versus comparing down, that there's maybe a little bit that can be healthy or helpful maybe is a better word, to a certain extent. But then it could also become a trap, right? Like we talked about the social media highlight reels if you're constantly trying to find self worth, by looking at your friends or friends of friends, social media reels, and saying, Well, I'm never going to be able to travel there or achieve that agency or get invited to these parties. You're going to feel you're constantly comparing up and that you're never good enough and you're never going to achieve or you could say gosh, look they're they're doing these things and maybe somehow I can change a little bit in my life and get there or comparing down. Which I know that gets controversial even saying that phrase of like comparing down to say like, wow, look at that person's thing or house or dress so I look way better

Scott Benner 19:46
the value there. But by the way, psychological cycle Psychology Today believes there's value in that the or can be valuable in comparing them to give yourself a boost. But I guess then the concern would be if I'm just going to try to paint I really hamfisted picture if I'm a homeless, drug addicted person, and then there's a homeless person who's not drug addicted. If I go, Oh, well, I might be homeless, but at least I'm not using heroin, that is not going to propel you out of your situation, it could make you feel falsely comfortable in a situation you don't really want to be in. Is that fair? That's fair.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 20:19
And I think to do it, every now and again, is fine. But again, going back to that, if that's your only source of finding, self worth or value by looking at other people's lives and saying, well, at least I'm not there. That that then maybe is an inauthentic place of of satisfaction, right? Yeah.

Scott Benner 20:45
So if it's a if it's a human instinct to compare ourselves, and you can get stuck in any number of these scenarios that we've painted, if you find yourself in that, how do you break free of it? Is there I mean, if I came in the office and said this to you like, what would you say to me?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:04
Well, it would it would be more than a one session quick fix? To be totally honest, I think it would, we would first start in just practicing the awareness of how often do you find yourself comparing? Is it? Is it all day long? Are you scrolling, thinking about what you don't have or what you have? And trying to gain that sense of self value or worth? So practicing the awareness around? How frequently are you doing that? And then, and then working through that? You know, I think a lot of people say, Well, if you just had higher self esteem, you know, there was a big push in the psychological world, that we just, we all need more self esteem. And then more recently, in the last, like, 10 years, it's been more about self compassion. And so we would look at that, are you if you're feeling like, you need more self esteem already in that space, you're judging yourself for not having self esteem, right? And saying, Gosh, I don't think I don't think well of myself. And you can get trapped in that. So we would then look at, you know, how, how are you offering kindness to yourself in areas where you excel in areas where you struggle, and oftentimes, that's where we spend a lot of time is looking at that self compassion piece?

Scott Benner 22:29
Am I off base by saying that it would be valuable to want what you have? Like, a? How do I mean this?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:38
I grew up having gratitude, you said is,

Scott Benner 22:41
I just I mean, I think what I mean is, like, not looking at something, and always thinking, Yeah, well, this is what I've achieved, but I want that thing. Like, if you want what you have, you can be happy with what you have, if you're always wanting something you don't have, then you're always going to be dissatisfied with yourself. And then I could see where the self esteem could spiral and and then by the way, I see what you're saying about the falsely propping people up with the like, you're terrific when you're not terrific, right? Like, right, like, why not just say hey, you're really good. Like, why? Why? Cuz I think you I don't see how that could work. Because if you tell me something about myself that I know is not true. I'm not going to believe it in my mind. To get made feel nice, like for a second. But, you know, if somebody walks up to me goes, oh my god, you're so tall. I'm gonna go thank you and then walk right and go, I am not tall, like like, right? But but if I wander around thinking I'm tall all the time. I think that's a disservice. Like, whereas I could just think this is how tall I am. That's great. Like, who cares? I don't need to be taller than this. I don't know if that makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:49
But what I feel like what that is kind of practicing mindfulness and acceptance of the truth and of the of whatever your thought is, you know, being comfortable with having uncomfortable feelings or not that you're saying you're uncomfortable about your height,

Scott Benner 24:10
but what I am I want to be taller. Like if you if you pin me down ugly Scott, were you out on your height? I'd say got more inches be terrific. Like, but it's not ruining my life. Do you know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:25
Right? So you've accepted that okay, let's just this is like a physical trait. You've accepted your height fine, you're okay with that. And so thinking about like a feeling and emotion that maybe feels uncomfortable when you are able to hold that uncomfortable feeling. You are then in turn telling your mind your soul, your heart, your body, that you are okay, just exactly as you are. And it doesn't mean then you're gonna go stew and feeling sad or rejected because you didn't Get the job, or disappointed because your agency is lower, you're just able to say, Gosh, I am feeling really frustrated, maybe even depressed. And I'm going to just hold this I'm going to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And then and then that it's moving on. But the minute we say, oh, no, I can't I can't feel that way. I can't accept how tall I am. I can't accept that I was rejected, then we get stuck there.

Scott Benner 25:27
Are there some people that want themselves or their situation to be not just comfortable for themselves are happier, it's something they're happy with. They want it to be something that everyone would universally agree on. Like, you only mean like, which is a weird thing to me, because some of the prettiest people are not classically pretty. Do you know what I mean? Like and so why, like, why are you trying to look like a angular job blonde model from the 70s? If, first of all, that's not everybody's thought about why I think that's what you think is that where they say, like magazine covers need to be representative is oh, that I'm saying it now. Okay? Because otherwise, if we mark it over and over again, this is what pretty is, then that's the thing that I judge you guys, okay, I'm starting understand. But But what you don't know is what's in most people's heads. And I'm gonna make an incredibly weird comparison here for a second, it's gonna make you uncomfortable. It's making me uncomfortable to bring it up. But it makes the point it makes the point really, really well go to any porn site, okay? And there are dozens of genres that people love. And they're not at all what you would think of as classically, whatever. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, there's like, there's a person out there for you, no matter who you are. And I don't, I don't think people believe that. Like, I understand, like, but I understand why that would be difficult to believe. But that's just the truth. There's, I asked my wife sometimes, like, um, we did this game the other day, with a bunch of famous people. I can't believe I'm gonna tell you, we did this. So we pulled up a list of like, the what we googled most attractive, blah, blah, blah. And we went through it, we were like, I don't really see it with that person. Or yeah, that and what it shows you is, is that, like, my particular interest, doesn't lend itself to the fifth person on the most attractive list. Like when my wife went when my daughter said to me, who do you when you think of a famous person who's really pretty, who do you think of? And I was like, Kate Winslet. And my daughter grows, really? And I'm like, yeah, no, Kate Winslet and, and she's like, why am I I don't know, like, that's who pops into my head? Or, you know, some guys are looking for? I don't know, big butts. And some women are looking for really skinny dorky looking guys. And like, why are we so trying to look like Linda Evangelia Lisa, like, they don't mean like that. There's a name I just randomly picked out of my Yeah. I really just with that one out. But she's a person who in my mind, is classically beautiful, like, but I don't think she's particularly attractive. So like, Why are we always trying to be the thing? If we know that's not true? Because we have those feelings to, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm walking around, knowing that I don't find classically beautiful women to be perfect. But yet, I want myself to be classically perfect. Because when they when Arden said like, Who do you want to look like, if you could look like anybody else? Like, Oh, George Clooney? Like, that's easy, right? And Arden goes, I don't think George Clooney is attractive. And I think that interesting. Yeah. And I think this game makes you should all play this game with yourself. I think it would teach you a lot in the past half an hour in the kitchen pretty nicely. So but, but I That's my confusion, like, Why do I know that I don't think Classic is classic. But yet, when I went when somebody asked me what I wanted to look like, I should have said me, and I should I said George Clooney. All right. I don't understand.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:17
So Well, I think also let's acknowledge your, your brain is developed, more so than you know the teenage brain. And so when when teenagers young children are exposed over and over and over again, you know, in our in our day, it was me magazine covers, but now on social media. They are exposed and that and by advertising, this is beauty. So even if and I hear what you're saying that you your sense, and how you define beauty is different than your daughter's or attractiveness or good looking Enos but yeah, We are trained to believe what what beauty should look like. And when you're younger, you're, that's, you absorb that. And so that's what leads oftentimes to destructive behaviors and destructive thinking. Because we're not, we don't look that way or own that thing or do that thing.

Scott Benner 30:19
So to move it away from looks, and why do I see so many people comparing how they eat to how other people eat. And I don't just mean in the diabetes space. I mean, this is if you want to start a fight in two seconds, it's catnip to say that the best way to eat is this, and then people will come in and compare and contrast and you don't understand about protein and you don't understand about fat and you don't understand about carbs, oh my God, and then I eat the best way. And none of the what you're doing is wrong. These are like this happens constantly. Like why would I? I almost cursed, I'm gonna curse. Why do I give how anybody else eats? Like, I don't understand. Why does that matter? Hey, guys, just jumping in to remind you that one of our sponsors better help is offering 10% off your first month of therapy, when you use my link, better help.com forward slash juice box. That's better. H e l p.com. Forward slash juice box. Better help is the world's largest therapy service. It is 100% online boasts over 25,000 licensed and experienced therapists. And you can talk to them however you want text chat phone or on video, you can actually message your therapist at any time and schedule live sessions when it's convenient for you. Better help.com forward slash juice box save 10% On your first month.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:44
The first thing that comes to mind is it's feel similar to religion, maybe and how people have belief systems, they have value system images, or maybe value systems. And you when you discover your truth, and whether it's your religion, or your value system or belief system, you want to share and quote proselytize to others. And so I wonder if it begins that way of like, wow, I discovered this way of eating, and I feel so good. And I've lost X amount of weight or I feel I have so much energy, and you want to share and maybe it's exciting. But then I know it quickly can evolve into criticism and, and really cruel type of commentary. Yeah, that I found the way and you haven't I'm not? Do you find that people get there go there first, or it becomes like, Oh, this is so exciting. Yeah.

Scott Benner 32:46
So I get to watch a lot of conversation. And they are all going to go the exact same way. There's, there's, I could, I could probably look at a post and take a magic marker and go, okay, this person brought up food today, because they just found a great way and they want to they share it with somebody, you can tell in their tone, the wording right away, say, a similar poster come up from somebody who like this person is here, because they got just a little crazy in their head. And they think it's their job to tell the whole world this thing. So those are the two different, like ways that can change points. The third entry point is when someone comes up and says, Hey, I have a question, what do you think I should do? So there's either the person who's like going to change the world, there's the person who's just excited to talk. And there's the person who doesn't know and is looking for input from people, no matter how they start. They're always going to end the same way. Now the one that starts with let me tell you, that is met with resistance more quickly. So but it's also met with more support. So the other let me tell you, people will come in and start going yay, Yeah, that guy knows he knows we're together solidarity. But then the people who feel like they don't want to be talked to like that, or B have a different idea. They're going to attack back based on the way the first person came into the story. That makes sense. Yes. And then that fight happens. Now the person who comes in and says, Hey, I've been doing this, and it's really been working for me. They're going to be met by somebody who says, Well, I do this and it works for me. Then someone's going to come in to defend the first person, then someone's going to come in to defend the second person, and then it turns to the same goddamn conversation from the first. And then the same thing happens if someone's just like, hey, I'm newly diagnosed, and I was wondering, here's an interesting one. My kids getting sick and tired of cheese sticks and jello. I need more free foods that will be met by lovely parents who We'll come in and give other options for low carb snacks. But inside of eight minutes, someone's going to come to tell them, there's no such thing as a free food. Which is true. They don't know that because they were just diagnosed, okay? But instead of just saying they don't mean free, they mean their understanding of free and saying to them, Hey, I know you're calling that a free food, but just heads up. You know, your kid might be honeymooning right now you're you might be seeing a doctor who's over baseline you to cover for your snacking, like that kind of stuff. But there's pretty much carbs and almost everything. And even something for example, like chicken that doesn't have carbs in it will be stored by your body as glucose later, and you'll see a rise later, right? You could say that. But instead, what they say is, there's no such thing as free foods, which is true, but not going to move the conversation along. So that's an interesting thing that people do too, is they'll come in and drop their truth bomb, but not add any context. Those people I always think are trying to search. That's how it seems to me. Like that's, that's kind of actually that's the phrase I use. I think there's sorry, here's what I think. Right? Like they,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:17
yes, maybe, maybe, maybe intentionally, maybe unintentionally. But I also wonder if you have this experience of, you know, there is such a huge learning curve in type one. And I would in the beginning, everything is so overwhelming, and you don't know what's what. And then one year in five years, in 10 years, and you start to learn more, and I wonder if you also have a sense of like, Oh, I've learned this, I know this 100% I feel pretty good about myself. But we forget that how our tone is going to

Scott Benner 36:50
Yeah, the communication. Yeah, communication, lets them download. Listen, I was put in a unique situation where I had to talk to people online for years, and it becomes obvious that you're like, there is a way to speak to people, that is not condescending, and it is not fake. But it doesn't make anybody upset. It's an A, you have to come from a like a real, honest point of view. And I still have a point of view, people know that I'm not like, I'm not milk toast, you know what I mean? But at the same time, there's a way to talk to people where you don't rile them up. And there's also a way to see that someone's already riled up beforehand. And then they start blaming each other. You're the reason that people would diabetes. It's people like you, it statements like that, like, that's, you're ruining the world, I figured out the great world, and you're ruining it. And then there's this feeling, I'm always amazed by people on their social media, or in these situations. They feel like they're talking to the whole world. I'm like, you're talking to hate people just calm down, like, like, nobody's you're not changing a goddamn thing. You're arguing with six people stop it, you know, like, or somebody with 150 followers on Instagram is putting up something that they clearly took the I don't know, days to write, and it's beautiful in prose, and everything in it gets three clicks. And I'm like, No one saw that, you know, but they still are acting like they're, that they're having that impact that drive. i It seems unstable to me. I don't know another way to put it. So that feeling that I'm talking to you and you need to listen, like that feels like that person has something to work out. That has nothing to do with this sometimes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:48
Some Yeah, I think the probably a variety of factors. But trying I think going back to the having some semblance of control in feeling like you're in control of your life, or of your kids choices. We do that even though we know we're not we're not in control and birth control of some things. But in the larger picture, we're not really in control of everything. And perhaps that feeling of when maybe when life is spilling out of control, maybe you might speak in a certain way to say no, this this is the way it has to be done. This is the way it works for me. And this is the way you should do it. And maybe they lean into that sense of control when maybe other things are feeling more out of control.

Scott Benner 39:35
Yeah. So I'm going to use this as an example the other day online. I saw a person jump into a thread and stairs, like it was clear that's what they were doing. And then I took a hard look and I thought I know this person. They've been in here a long time. That doesn't make sense to me. And I had to remove their comment because it was hurtful and nasty and it was just gonna leave Need to more hurtful and nasty. And I took it out. But I took the moment to send a note. And I said, Hey, I don't know what's going on. But you can't do that. And you've been here a long time, this really surprised me. And I got a return note that said, I'm really sorry, I have two different family members in the hospital, one of them's out of state, I need to find a better way to relieve my stress here then to get online and do what I just did. And so my expectation is, is that most people are having some sort of a thing in their day, when this happens, like, I genuinely think people are, like, decent. You know what I mean? Like I don't, I don't think that anybody just in their best moment gets up and says, Let me go argue with somebody about what we're eating, or let me go compare this to that, or go blame a whole group of people for whatever. I don't think that that's the case, I think that, that there are enough people in the world, and they don't have enough access to the internet, that it only takes a couple of people having a bad day, to give you the impression that the world is a terrible place. And I just don't think that's true. You know, so I got a lot out of that response. And then I responded back and I said, Hey, you know, I just lost my mom, I think I have some idea of what you're talking about, and know how hard it is, I'm sorry, um, you know, please just, you know, keep visiting the group and feeling better. And if you're feeling like you need to lash out, like, I don't know, go do something else. Like, like, you know, leave those people alone. But, but I was the only one that had that compassionate response. Because when he started doing what he was doing, everybody else was like, boom, coming back at him swinging with some people are like, here's the rules in the group, or here, you can't say that or be nice or why. And I'm like, Oh, my God, like, none of this is going to go well. Like, you don't see that. And then they'll start telling me, like, he's wrong, not me. Because I'll say, Hey, be nice to him. And they'll be like, me, I'm not the problem. Like, ah, now you're both the problem. Like everyone should have to moderate a group of 40,000 people for a week, because you would you start seeing the world in a completely different way. It's, it's interesting. And my group is, and I think you can attest to this really harmonious and generally speaking, overall, a pretty lovely place to be, but it's still when it pops up. You're like, Oh, here's all the stuff that we go to therapy for.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:36
Yeah, I'm sure you see so many, you know, patterns of human nature that we all can grow in, you know, certain areas at certain times. I think one thing I just actually noticed in your in a post I read recently, that I thought was really gracious and kind a network that like totally off topic, kind of but you know, reading, I think oftentimes we insert ourselves, like you just said without reading the initial post or reading the thread, and someone very graciously said, Hey, I think you missed the first like the actual question, maybe go back and read the initial post. And I thought that was a really kind reminder to, like, you wouldn't insert yourself in a conversation that was happening in the living room if you were in the kitchen? Without I mean, maybe you would, but you know, without understanding what was happening, what's the context?

Scott Benner 43:30
I know what you're talking about? And I've seen it done both ways. I've seen it done like, Hey, I think you missed like the tone of like, you missed the question. There's also people who didn't miss the question. They're just using it as an opportunity to give you their opinion. And so it's, it's interesting, and I don't think everybody is going to listen to this and go, Oh, I do that I should do better. And as a matter of fact, I don't. I don't know. I don't think it's gonna help anybody. But I'm also I'm very cynical about this stuff. Because I just, when, when we're talking about something that is built over time, through experience, like through parenting, or upbringing, even if it's being pointed out to you right now, what is your real, like, chance of like, grabbing a hold of it and redirecting it? And my honest, my honest thought is, you have the best chance, in a situation like this where a person me and you who have no connection to their lives, like the people who are listening can say, hey, if this is happening to you, this is how it sounds to other people. Like maybe you don't want to sound like this because I don't think this is a thing. You can tell a spouse or a child or a close, like, you don't I mean, like I bet you if your husband acts up and you say something to him, he's like, Don't therapy me, and like, I'm not digging into your life, but I'm assuming that's happened.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:54
It's happened, okay.

Scott Benner 44:56
So you have a much greater chance of helping people you don't know who have no connection to you, then you do with helping the people around you. Because all this insight that I have, doesn't help me that much with my wife. Because she's like, you're an idiot. I've known you forever. Like, you know what I mean? Like, if you knew something like, you know, me, like, she doesn't take me seriously the way other people would. And my point about that is that everyone's in that situation, this is your best opportunity to see yourself in some of these descriptions and say, I don't want to be like that. Like, to me, that's why I'm having the conversation. So there's a look behind me, that's why I'm having this conversation. Because I think it could help people. But also, yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:37
yes, hopefully, and I think goes back to, you know, having the awareness and and the desire to change. And, and taking it back to, you know, why do we compare, I think, with it, but the example that we've been using in the Facebook group with food and eating styles, perhaps you feel that you obviously feel better about the way that you're eating, and maybe you find that self worth, that you've you found the way and you're going to compare it to other people, and that you feel better than other people, because you found a way that works for you. And I think that the highlight, you know, underlying theme that I know you talk about a lot in your Facebook group and on the the podcast is, you know, do what works for you. And that's okay, there's no right or wrong method of eating. And if we could all live in that space, that would be a beautiful thing to remember, you know, that's great if ketto works for you, or if eating whatever you want works for you. And doesn't always have to be all or nothing. Yeah.

Scott Benner 46:47
And it is more attractive to people psychologically to blame someone than it is to praise them. Is that not true?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:56
To blame, so psychologically attractive,

Scott Benner 46:59
like, are our brain lame, or? Yeah, like we're kind of wired. Like the blaming feels better than the prick than praising does that you'll hear people say that when you're being kind, it sounds fake to them. Do you ever hear people say that? Oh, I'm that makes me really sad when people say that, but like, you're being kind, you're phony, like, I'm not feeling as well, I think, you know, so they're so wired towards the destructive, like the blame, yes, that when they see kind, it rubs them wrong. That's really something

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:31
it's hard to receive and internalize as truth. Yes. And I think as the as the deliver, I was, I'm trying to understand that the sentence that you just said to, like, psychologically attractive to blame somebody? Are you saying that as like the person who's receiving that, or as the person or

Scott Benner 47:55
the person who gives it, like, I guess you get a feeling of superiority by blaming, right? So that's probably, and then that raises you up to, I'm better than these people like you. So all the all the self doubt you have inside, you can make it go away by pointing to someone who's clearly doing something wrong.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:15
Right? And that would, I would maybe argue that that's like, Oh, I'm going to boost my self esteem. I'm doing this thing of, I'm gonna blame somebody else, I'm gonna feel better about my thing. And then I have this kind of false self esteem. As opposed to, well, maybe maybe I have it right. Maybe I don't, that's okay. I'm just gonna be kind of myself regardless. Yeah.

Scott Benner 48:37
And listen, this, this conversation is extra interesting to me. Because if you're living with diabetes, or you're caring for somebody who has it, you are being judged constantly, by by blood tests and numbers on things and arrows and beeping and clarity reports, just, you know, your you can say, you're not being judged, and you shouldn't take this judgment. And that's all true, but it's happening, you are being judged constantly, right? You are either doing something right, or you're doing something wrong, or you're getting something right, and you don't even know how the hell it happens. You can't even take credit for, you know, like, like, and so that stuff's all happening. I think it's important to know that you're having all these different impacts like that we've been talking about because you are then going to go have a human interaction with somebody, your children, your husband, your wife, like somebody in your life, somebody online, and you're gonna have all these bad feelings that you don't have time to deal with because you're busy trying to keep someone's blood sugar from being dangerous one way or the other. And then, I don't know, I just think that most of the people who come off poorly online, I think if we could grab them one at a time, like I did with that person in my example, you'd find that is not who they are. It's not how they feel. And if you gave them a do over they would certainly not say the thing they just said. And I think the only way to slow that down is if everyone He understands that we're all in a really it's a high tension situation taking care of diabetes. Like constantly, you know, I feel at the time yeah, you feel like a, like a hostage negotiator constantly, like everything you do is about to kill somebody if you do it wrong, like, you know, so that's how it makes me feel.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:20
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's why, you know, I know I say it, probably almost every episode that we record, but just the significance of taking responsibility where you can releasing the blame and offering the self compassion of like, this is really hard to nail it every time. And we're not going to I mean, that's okay.

Scott Benner 50:43
I think you have to treat it like, like hitting a baseball, honestly. And just go wow, I got three out of the last 10 I'm so good at this. Yeah, I just really like that's it. I mean, that's an old saying, right, but you go three for 10 through a career, you're in the Hall of Fame. So hitting a baseball is really, really hard to do. Is that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:06
Is that a true? That's a real stat. I did not know that. Yeah, hold

Scott Benner 51:09
on an average batting average. Of Hall of Fame. Average batting average of a Hall of Famer. Hall a second. Okay. So the top three are like old timey so they weren't even playing when people were athletic. Okay, Ty Cobb has the lifetime average of 366 point. 366 Rogers Hornsby point. 358 Joe Jackson, that's Shoeless Joe Jackson point. 356. Ted Williams batted career point 344. And to find somebody more like here, look, I don't know. If you don't know baseball. You don't know baseball. Tony Gwynn was a pro hitter. He batted point 338 for his his career, he got slightly over three hits every 10 times he was at bat. And there are people, big name people here and I'm scrolling down like I'm in the top 600. Now like, I'll give you a name that people are just gonna know. It's an old name. Roy Campanella. That's a baseball name. People know. He batted point. 276. That's it. Wow. So Cal Ripken, Jr. has a lifetime point. 276 batting average.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:28
And point two, seven. Yeah. So he got less than

Scott Benner 52:31
three hits every 10 times. And he's one of the best shortstops that ever played. And so, you know, it's just that, to me, is how I mean, I know this is overly simplified, but that's how I think about things. Like when you hear me say something, and you think I'm joking, I'm like, I set the bar really low. That way, I can't even trip over it. Like, like everything I do. I'm like, again, me succeeding. Right? And because you need that momentum, to set that next carrot on that next stick, and keep going. Like if you, if you bury yourself under a pile of dread the first time you do something you spend your whole life digging yourself out from it. Me, I was like, I can't believe I got dressed today. I'm killing it. Like, like, you know, and I just, there's a way to, there's a way to trick yourself into feeling that way. And then is what are you doing? You're faking it till you make it? Right? Like, that's a real thing for a reason. You know, so you keep to me, it's setting little, little goals succeeding and moving on. I do with my kids all the time, I'll even let them know I'm doing it. Like, you know, like, the other day. I said to my son, I was like, You should set up a, an IRA for yourself. Right? And he's like, Yeah, and I was like, yeah, man, I'm like, You got a job now, like, it won't be a lot of money. But you can put a little money aside every month. And, and I made sure to tell him like, you could have a short term goal of maybe owning a home if you wanted to, in the next 10 years, or something like that, you're gonna have a long term goal about retiring. And I said, and it doesn't need to be a lot, you can put in a little bit a manageable amount, and you'll get to these things. And he's like, okay, like, and that's it. So then I set him up with a person to help him set up an IRA, Ira. And then he called me and he said, Hey, I talked to the guy, and I was like, that's great. Great that you talk to him. I said, what's next? And he said, Oh, I gotta fill out the paperwork as I go. Let me know when you do that if you need help. And a week later, I got a call, Hey, what does this mean on this form? And I told him and he goes, good, you got all done as a great job. And he's like, thanks. I said, Hey, I'd like to put some money in it to get you started. And he's like, Oh, thank you. And he goes, You know what he said, I'll match whatever you put in up to this much. And I said, Well, if that's as much as you can put in, that's as much as I can put in and so and now he's on his way. Like

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:49
there's so many sweets so endearing. Oh my gosh, but but, but I

Scott Benner 54:53
didn't tell you because I'm how terrific I am. I told you because, hey, first of all, I wish somebody would have talked to me about money when I was a part Some, like a young person. And secondly, because that's an example of like five or six opportunities to put a little tiny carrot out in front of him. He reaches out and grabs it. He feels like he did something, I filled out the paperwork. Yeah, me, I called the guy yay, me, like that kind of stuff. And he feels like he's doing something without having a down payment on the house. Like, right? He, he thinks he's working towards it, I gotta be honest with you, it doesn't matter if he ever, it doesn't matter if he ever gets to it, it matters, that he has something to do, and that he has something to focus on, and that it's positive, and that it's achievable. Short term, long term. That's all I don't want to say I'm a genius, Erica, but there I just fixed it for you just do that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:46
Well, then he, he's having this feedback loop, right? Of I did this thing, and I felt good about myself. And that is so important for the overall mental health right there who knows he has the capability, the competency, then he feels good for fulfilling that goal. And that's, that's super important that you're, you know, helping shape him in those steps.

Scott Benner 56:13
But that's the thing you could all do for yourself in little ways. All day long. Like if if you say, I'm going to put the laundry away, and then you don't do it, you made too big of a goal. Like you make it make a smaller thing and reach for that. You'll be surprised how it'll just get you like motivated. It makes you feel like you're doing something and you are by the way, you're not really lying to yourself, you are getting something accomplished. But that momentum and that expectation, by the way that you're going to accomplish things, it builds on itself. And then you don't have to be out in the world constantly comparing yourself to other people just to feel better, you'll actually feel better, because you've compared yourself to a thing that you did. And then you're the focus then yours, then you're George Clooney to you. Does that all make sense? I mean, I feel like I've bundled this up very nicely for everybody. But, but, but it's just that easy. Well, it's obviously not that easy. But But yes, it is. Right. Like there's, there's no more to it than that. I mean, the doing it's hard. The understanding what it is, is not hard, like and so I think my point is if you find yourself comparing yourself to people all the time, or if you find yourself blaming other people all the time, you just you probably just don't feel good about what you're doing. So go back and set the small goals where you can feel better about yourself, like don't look at your 12 a one C and when it's not a six next time, go What the hell say I wonder if I can get this to an 11 and a half. You only mean and, and work like that. To me, that makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 57:47
Anyway, yeah, taking smaller, a larger goal, breaking it up into smaller chunks. We talk I talk about that a lot. And even just, you know, thinking about like, the laundry example, or the exercise of like, okay, if the doing folding the laundry, putting away I feel that that is a really challenging task in my household is to say, I'm gonna do the socks today, you know, and you're like, Yes, I did the socks and tomorrow, you're gonna do the shirts. Same thing with any task of saying, I'm just gonna set the timer and do it for five minutes. And you're done. Don't, don't do the treadmill for 30 Do it for five,

Scott Benner 58:21
I had trouble standing up after my surgery on my foot. So I said to my wife and my daughter who's home from school, right now, if you guys could just fold the laundry. That'd be really great. Right? So they took care of their laundry, they left my laundry folded on my side of the room. And I thought, I can't put this away right now. So I told myself, I'm going to dress out of the pile. And I'm going to make that okay for myself this week. Yeah, so I got dressed out of the pile of clothing, like they were in the drawers. And I didn't say to myself, you're a scumbag for not putting these clothes away. I can't believe you're living out of a pile of clothes. I actually said that's my goal. I'm gonna live out the pile of clothes today because I can't stand up too long because of my foot. And I don't want to torture myself about this. And I know that when I walk into the room, I look at the pile of clothing. And I think just put that away. Don't do that. But instead I just made it an okay thing. And that was it. And by the way, I still got the podcast on. I got other stuff accomplished this week. And I don't know it's all here. Listen, I'm gonna make this last point and you can wrap up. I don't know if you know who showy Otani is, but he's arguably the best baseball player that is alive right now playing the names familiar? Yeah, he's batting point. 306 Right now, every person in the world who understands baseball would want him on their baseball team. He's astonishingly good. So that's it be a be a 300 battery, batting average. That's what I would do. I'd shoot for that be amazing. You get three out of 10 things done that you set up every week. Then just reset them again. You know, I don't know. And here's a piece of advice from me to anybody else. Make your to do list flexible. Don't set one to 10 And then say to yourself, I can't get to two until I do one. If If three becomes more important than one to you slide three to one, just keep moving it around it, it goes a long way to not torturing yourself. So anyway,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:12
that's it, may I add on your to do list? Be kind yourself. Sometimes I encourage people to have your big to do list and then on Monday, you have folded laundry, number one, number two, be kind yourself. And then that's and then number two on Tuesdays two of those things,

Scott Benner 1:00:28
again, a very doable, that's what I'm saying. It's a very doable thing that you can check off your list make you feel like you've accomplished something, and it's good for you on top of that, so Yeah, beautiful. That's exactly right. All right, Erica, Erica forsythe.com. Right, what states are doing virtually right now?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:46
California, Utah, Oregon, and Florida,

Scott Benner 1:00:49
in person in California, in person in California. Okay, thank you very much.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:53
Thank you.

Scott Benner 1:01:04
First, I want to thank Erica and remind you to check her out at Erica foresight.com that I want to thank all of you for listening, and better help for sponsoring this episode better help.com forward slash juice box save 10% off your first month of therapy when you use my link. I hope you enjoyed our little thought exercise today. I enjoyed having the conversation with Erica, if you want to check out the private Facebook group that we were talking about. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. That's pretty much it. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

A day diabetes diagnosis comes with a lot of new terminology. And that's why I've created the defining diabetes series. These are short episodes where Jenny Smith and I go over all of the terms that you're going to hear living with diabetes, and some of them that you might not hear every day, from the very simple Bolus up to feed on the floor. Don't know the difference between hypo and hyper will explain it to you. These are short episodes, they are not boring. They're fun, and they're informative. It's not just us reading to you out of the dictionary, we take the time to chat about all of these different words. Maybe you don't know what a coup small respiration is, you will when you're done. Ever heard of glycemic index and load haven't doesn't matter. You will know after you listen to the defining diabetes series. Now, how do you find it, you go to juicebox podcast.com up top to the menu and click on defining diabetes. You'll be able to listen right there in your browser. Or you'll see the full list of the episodes and be able to go into an audio app like Apple podcasts or Spotify and listen to them at your pace. Download them into your phone and listen when you can. The defining diabetes series is made up of 51 short episodes. That will fast forward your knowledge of diabetes terminology