#1033 Figuring Out Hawley

Hawley has type 1 diabetes and a number of other issues. 

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1033 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today's episode is a tour de force. I have Holly on the show. She's a 40 year old type one. And she's got a lot going on here the episodes jam packed. I feel like I don't want to explain it to you here. Because then you know, it feels like a given away. Let's just say there's surprises abundantly available to you in this episode of The Juicebox Podcast while you're listening to it. Please remember that nothing you hear on said podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan or becoming bold with insulin. You can support the podcast by using my links there in the show notes of your podcast player and at juicebox podcast.com. Or you can type them into a browser. For example, you could save 40% off your entire order at cozy earth.com using the offer code juice box at checkout do that you'll save 40% Go to drink a G one.com forward slash juice box get a free year supply of vitamin D and five free travel bags with your first order. You can get your Omni pods from Aldi, pij Dexcom, from Dexcom Yukon to our next gen meters. Just use the links this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. Use my link get the Omni pod dash or the AMI pod five, and they'll get it right over to you. They zimny boom comes to you. I don't mean I don't know the whole process, but you'll figure it out at the link. The podcast is also sponsored today, by Dexcom dexcom.com. Forward slash juicebox. You want to Dexcom G seven, of course you do use my link dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. You can get the G six or the G seven. I think he can actually get a test drive and the G six. Speaking of that you might be able to get a test drive with the Omnipod of my like, my legs are terrific. Check them out.

Hawley 2:18
My name is Holly and I am an adult with type one diabetes. I'm a mother of one. And yeah, that's That's it.

Scott Benner 2:29
Let's get this out of the way. First. Is your name Holly? Yes, it's Holly but spelled differently. Yes, correct. I honestly you don't have to finish. This is the only reason I had you on the show. I just wanted to find out.

Hawley 2:44
Yeah, I always tell people who are old enough they get this reference that to think of the show he Hall. And it's just like Hall li

Scott Benner 2:54
ya know, I mean, I've always thought that I just, I could never like I've never seen that before. Your parents do that here.

Hawley 3:04
It is a common last name. I'll say that for some. And so that is how I came around that spelling. Gotcha.

Scott Benner 3:13
That makes sense to me. All right. And like I said, everything else is going to be a bonus. I just wanted to know why your name is spelt like this. Is it a southern thing?

Hawley 3:22
I don't think so. Know. What part of the country you from, like vaguely northwest Arkansas.

Scott Benner 3:29
Where's that? That's not southern? That's like Midwestern.

Hawley 3:32
No, it's well, so northwest Arkansas has its own unique little area. Because we're Walmart Ville. And so we have people from all over. And we're also so close to the border. They're in like Missouri and Oklahoma. We're kind of a little liberal pocket in the south in Northwest Arkansas.

Scott Benner 3:53
Interesting. Yeah, I don't know anything about the map, obviously. Like you just said, Arkansas. I'm so like, I don't know where that is. Wait, is it near Tennessee? To the left?

Hawley 4:07
Yeah, on the right. You have to go east from all the way east from where I am, I think to head towards Tennessee.

Scott Benner 4:14
But like, like longitude and latitude. It's like, yeah, it's in that line there.

Hawley 4:19
Yes. Yeah, we're below them. I believe the Mason Dixon Line and we're considered Southern, it's just that. I know, I grew up in this area. And while there are some things that are very southern, especially if you go, you know, I don't know, 30 miles into the country. We also have this kind of urban development mix going on, because there's so much corporate so we have people from internationally and all over the globe living here. So it's kind of a neat area.

Scott Benner 4:51
So you don't think of that. So Arkansas is not thought of as Midwestern.

Hawley 4:55
No, no, it is Southern. But it also But believe me that people love their Razorback football. Okay. But I have I know enough to know that this is a really kind of unique spot in Arkansas.

Scott Benner 5:12
Gotcha. That's cool. All right. I'm gonna look at a map later and try to see if I can remember. You have. Let's see, what's your situation? What's your background? Do you have diabetes?

Hawley 5:22
Yes, I am the type one. And I just have though one daughter, and she actually has what the endocrinologist called insulin resistance. And I just asked the other day, if that's a polite way of saying type two, and he said, yes and no, because she doesn't meet the blood sugar cut off. She hasn't had a blood sugar high enough to diagnose her with type two, but she does have insulin resistance. Okay, well, how

Scott Benner 5:49
old were you when you were diagnosed?

Hawley 5:51
I just know, it was in 1997. And I was either 14 or 15. But I can't remember I always my memories, not

Scott Benner 5:58
the best. That's like 24 years ago, 25 years ago?

Hawley 6:01
Yeah, definitely over 20 years. Yeah. Okay.

Scott Benner 6:06
Other people in your family with type one? Yes or no? No, no other autoimmune for you. Were trying

Hawley 6:13
to figure that out. Okay. So, like, No, I'm been on a very many years journey of trying to figure out what the heck is going on with my body. But it's complicated by having had breast cancer and 2015. And it was kind of like, is this a result of damage from chemo? And many, many surgeries? Or is this something else? Is it the Tamoxifen medicine I'm on? Because tamoxifen can cause all of these, you know, pretty horrendous symptoms? Or is it something else? And so it's been since 2015, that I've kind of been trying to figure all of that out.

Scott Benner 7:04
So what do you have happening that you can't get figured out? Like, what's your sense? What are your symptoms?

Hawley 7:09
Okay, so I don't eat a ton. And I'm pretty active, not like, I don't love exercise, like, I'm not a runner, but I own a pet sitting business. So sometimes in the summer, I'm walking four hours a day, and just like gaining weight, like, you know, I see. And then fatigue is something and then I have chronic pain in my hands. Wrist was diagnosed with carpal tunnel during my pregnancy with my daughter. And then it has progressed to like my entire arms and shoulders. But you know, they also took out lymph nodes under each armpit pit whenever I had my double, or my my mastectomy, right. And so it's like, Is the pain coming from post surgical trauma? Soft tissue? Is it bone? Is it joint, is it, you know? And like, I literally just came back from seeing a massage therapist because my arms have gotten so bad. They tested me for RA for the second time. I still don't have any markers. Yeah. And I went to go see a guy who specializes in kind of orthopedic post operative massage and healing. And he said, I have hypermobility, which I had just been researching on behalf of my daughter, but I didn't think I had it. And that was one of the things he said to me within the first seven minutes of getting on his table.

Scott Benner 8:48
Do you think any of this is hormonal? Do you feel it flaring around your period or anything like that?

Hawley 8:53
I think there's definitely hormonal things at play that has been one of my biggest hurdles in managing my diabetes have because of the I was I had a what they called a I want to say like chemically induced menopause when I was in chemo, it just means the chemo caught, you know, causes your body to stop having your cycle right. So but then they put you on the Tamoxifen which if I'm any health field, people correct me but I believe it's not that it suppresses your estrogen but that it interferes with your body's cells ability to absorb it. So the idea being you would essentially starve out because I had estrogen sensitive cancer. So you starve any remaining cells of that cancer cells in your body by making it where it can't get to the estrogen. But in doing that, it caused horrible cysts, huge, huge hormonal swings, drastic insulin resistance Since like it was maybe one of the hardest diabetes phases of my life. And since then I finally went off of it, and it's better. But I still have very noticeable shifts in usage and other things. Through I tracked my cycles closely, shall we say, because there are definite things that happen.

Scott Benner 10:24
Yeah, go back for a second. Did you say you were suppressing estrogen was something?

Hawley 10:29
Tamoxifen is not it. As far as I know, it doesn't suppress it. But it interferes with your body's ability to like, access it. That's kind of my understanding,

Scott Benner 10:40
because joint pain can be attached to like progesterone and estrogen, estrogen, like, well,

Hawley 10:45
I stopped taking it, they want you to be on it. According to my oncologist, they five to 10 years, but we stopped at, I forget what it was maybe six years, because my symptoms were so bad, my quality of life was horrendous. So they reduced my dose to half from 10 milligrams to five. And then I was on that half dose and things got better, but still were pretty horrible. And I finally said, I enough, like my diabetes is so heavily affected by this. I'm not taking this anymore. I have to live and so I don't take tamoxifen anymore,

Scott Benner 11:24
right. Okay, so here's what I have. Estrogen has an anti inflammatory effect on the body. So there's that. So if you're interfering with estrogen being used, would it interfere with that? I'm just asking the question. And then scientists have found exposure to the hormone progesterone activates genes that trigger inflammation. Or you may be getting like fluctuations in your, in your hormonal balance that are causing joint pain is the joint pain constant.

Hawley 11:54
It's constant with major flares. Like it's constant. I'm always in a state of pain. But sometimes it's worse than others.

Scott Benner 12:04
Do you hear my episode when I talked about art and using no vas at all?

Hawley 12:08
I did. I did. And I that's one of the things I need to look into. Because I know because I want to say I'm triple positive for estrogen receptors that I'm really limited on what sort of the hormonal support I can you

Scott Benner 12:25
Gotcha. Okay. All right. All right. Well, that's a lot. Let's go back to the beginning now. So your diagnosis, a teen going into like your sophomore year of high school. And you've sent me some notes, so I don't want to ignore them. Did you drink a little bit in college and high school?

Hawley 12:42
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Scott Benner 12:45
Why did you bring it up in your notes?

Hawley 12:48
Specifically, you were asking for after dark episodes. And also, I think diabetes is a very fear based thing so frequently, and I want people to know that there are ways and then there are ways and that approaching things. I guess, being smart about your poor decision making is a thing you can do.

Scott Benner 13:15
How do you mean?

Hawley 13:17
Like, you know, I think I was raised to think of drinking as being irresponsible, and then once just in general, right, and then drinking too much, you just shouldn't do it. That was a thing you shouldn't do. But then when you're diabetic, there's this extra layer that gets piled on top of that of everything in your life, well, then you definitely shouldn't do that. When in reality, I think it is. Drinking is a thing that can be problematic for everyone. And we and as someone who's diabetic, you have to learn to approach things that have risks, and make smart choices to like, set yourself up for success in those choices you're making. So, you know, I did lots of dumb stuff. But I was pretty smart about how I did dumb stuff,

Scott Benner 14:05
even even as a younger person. Yes, yeah. Why did you see that? I mean, how did you get to that? Like, why were you pre planning or drinking, for example, like to help yourself is like, did you think like, I have diabetes, but I still want to drink? And this is how I can accomplish it. How would you like to know what your blood glucose is without having to stick a hole in your finger, you can with the Dexcom G seven. And you can learn more about the Dexcom g7@dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Not only does Dexcom offer zero finger sticks, but you can get your glucose readings right on your smart device that's your iPhone or your Android don't have a phone. That's okay. You can use Dex comms receiver. On any of these devices, you're able to set up customizable alerts and alarms, setting your optimal range so that you'll get notified when your glucose levels go too high or too low. Oh, and you can share this data with up to 10 followers. Imagine what that could look like your child could be at school, and their data could be available to you, your spouse, their aunt, the school nurse, anyone who you choose, my daughter has been wearing a Dexcom for ever. And Dexcom helps us in multiple ways. Around meals, we're able to see if our boluses are well timed, and well measured. If they aren't, we can tell by how her blood sugar reacts, and then go back the next time and make an adjustment. Without the Dexcom CGM. We're sort of flying blind, but not just that meals. Also during activity and sleep. The Dexcom offers us an unprecedented level of comfort and security, being able to see my daughter's blood sugars in real time. And not just the number. But the speed and direction is an absolute game changer. If you're using insulin, the Dexcom is at the center of how we've been able to keep our daughter's a one C between five two and six two. for over seven years, we've been able to minimize variability and keep her blood sugar's in a stable range. Because of the information that we can see with the Dexcom. These are our results and yours may vary. But using Dex coms feedback has helped my daughter without any food restrictions, live a more normal and healthy life dexcom.com forward slash juice box.

Hawley 16:33
I don't, I don't remember in my teens, I didn't. I mean, I did drink in my teens, but not not as much as when I was in college. But I just remember seeing friends and how they behaved when they drink too much. And now look, I had to be rescued. I made a fool of myself a time or two. But I learned very quickly I didn't ever want to be. I didn't like not being in control and aware of my surroundings and able to make decisions. And so I kind of learned to navigate the drinking in my brain to where I thought, Okay, well, I'm kind of drunk, I can tell how my body feels, I can still make decisions, I can still tell someone you know, and all of my friends got the holly lesson on how to check my blood sugar and what to do. I was very much like, let me tell you about my diabetes. And here are my parents phone numbers in case some I've always been like that pretty much from the beginning.

Scott Benner 17:39
So you kind of got the people around you prepared that if there was a problem, you felt like they'd be able to help you with it.

Hawley 17:45
Somewhat at least enough. I told them when in doubt, you just call 911 That's what I always told them. If you're too nervous, and you don't want to do this, you just call 911. And you tell them I'm type one. Okay. And, and but I was always kind of the mom of the group. And so I tend to be the one, you know, holding hair back and who

Scott Benner 18:08
would have done that anyway. So you needed you. Yeah. That's interesting. So what did you What did you go to college for?

Hawley 18:18
What didn't I go to college for?

Scott Benner 18:20
I don't think that's how it's supposed to work. But okay, what did you go go for?

Hawley 18:26
Initially, I went for photojournalism. I was obsessed with National Geographic, and I went to a school that had a very good journalism school.

Scott Benner 18:36
Okay. And did you not get a degree in that? No. What what came next

Hawley 18:43
freshman year, I moved five and a half hours away, joined a sorority and moved to the Midwest. And it was basically I had never had to try very hard academically, to succeed. I also had structure built it built into my entire life. I was at the time undiagnosed ADHD. And I went and joined this sorority and met these wonderful people. And there were all of these performance things she could do singing, dancing, acting, all these philanthropic things. And I was just in heaven, and I kind of I didn't have any structure and I moved five and a half hours away. And I thought you have to understand I also had been going to college since I was a sophomore in high school. Because we didn't really have very many AP classes at the small town I was at. My mom found out about concurrent enrollment. And so I started taking college classes at our local university. And they weren't hard. And so I thought when I went away to school, but to a much more academic I'm at school, unbeknownst to me that I wouldn't have to try and could skip class and still make A's. And I just, you know, went down the rabbit hole of being so happy and involved. I was over involved and not working on my academics enough. And I learned a really hard lesson and, you know, essentially basically failed out because I developed insomnia. And because I had anxiety about sleeping, I was afraid I was going to die in my sleep, and no one would know No kidding. Yeah, and I just didn't sleep. And I would just stay up all night on like, the computer on AOL, not sleeping. And then there was a weird thing. You know, how your brain makes sense of things. And they don't really make sense. But at the time it did. Yeah. I felt safer sleeping during the day, because my mom would always call me and people would call me and I thought, if I don't answer, they'll realize something's wrong. And so I felt safer sleeping during the day and afraid to sleep at night that I would die. No one would know it until the next day, and then it would be too late. That

Scott Benner 21:23
did it. Did it ever occur to you to set up a structure the way you did with the drinking? My daughter Arden began wearing the Omni pod tubeless insulin pump on February 4 2009. That was 5093 days ago. Were another way to think of it 1697 pods ago. At that time, she was four years old. Hang out with me for a moment while I tell you more about the Omni pod Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. Today Arden is 18 and still wearing Omni pod back then there was one choice just one pod but today you have a decision to make. Do you want the Omni pod five, the first and only tubeless automated insulin delivery system to integrate with the Dexcom G six, because if you do, it's available right now for people with type one diabetes ages two years and older. The Omni pod five is an algorithm based pump that features smart adjust technology. That means that the Omni pod five is adjusting insulin delivery based on your customized target glucose that's helping you to protect against high and low blood sugars, both day and night. Automatically. Both the Omni pod five and the Omni pod dash are waterproof, you can wear them while you're playing sports swimming in the shower, the bathtub, anywhere really. That kind of freedom. Coupled with tubeless a tubeless pump, you understand it's not connected to anything. The controller is not connected to the pod, the pod is not connected to anything, you're wearing it on the body tube lessly no tubing to get caught on doorknobs or anywhere else that tubing with those other insulin pumps can get caught Omni pod.com forward slash juice box, that's where you go to find out more, you may be eligible for a free 30 day trial of the Omni pod dash, you should check that out too, when you get to my lake Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. So if you're looking for an insulin pump that is tubeless waterproof, and automated. You're looking for the Omni pod five. If you want to do it on your own, you're not looking for the automation, Omni pod dash for full safety risk information and free trial Terms and Conditions. Please also visit omnipod.com forward slash juicebox

Hawley 23:48
I think I think I just was horribly anxious and did not know what that word was back then. And would call my mom sometimes at two in the morning and bless her she answer every time and I did. I don't even know what that structure would have looked like I think I didn't. I had taken care of myself from the beginning. And I didn't know to set something up to create a safety net for that scenario.

Scott Benner 24:24
That makes sense to me. I mean before the technology and everything I was just wondering if you've like ever told somebody like look, I'm scared to sleep so you know for a week would you just call me at a certain time wake me up and or set an alarm and wake yourself up? Or just unreasonable anxiety nature of the whole thing just put you in a position where you're like I just would be easier not to sleep.

Hawley 24:46
I think I was ashamed. Probably no one really knew except for a girl who eventually a friend you ended up moving in with me. That was part of the problem is that I lived off campus as a freshman our incoming class was so huge, they didn't have enough dorm rooms. So I ended up living off campus, a fair aways away by myself, with no one really around. And so it got better when my friend moved in. She would wake up sometimes and they have you slept? And I, I'd be like, No.

Scott Benner 25:22
And where did that? Where did this fear come from? Holly did? Did you have a problem? Or were you just worried that there was going to be one? Because you weren't worried about getting drunk? And and having type one. But you were worried about sleeping and having a tight bond?

Hawley 25:37
I think it's because it felt out of my control, because I'm not awake to know how I feel. So how will I know I'm low? And what if I go low? And instead of waking up? I don't wake up. Okay.

Scott Benner 25:56
That's all listen, I'm just asking questions. But I mean, I see what you're getting at. And so how long did that go on for? Because you can't not sleep forever?

Hawley 26:05
I don't know. It was pretty bad. But I mean, I was sleeping during the day, but I would sleep erratically

Scott Benner 26:12
and better. Yes, during the day.

Hawley 26:15
Yeah. Well, that's why I failed out. Because I mean, I was missing a lot of class.

Scott Benner 26:21
I'm sorry. It's not funny at all, but it is. Yeah,

Hawley 26:25
I mean, looking back on it. It was a lot of it also was just not realizing the whole ADHD thing and kind of not having a good concept of consequences. And not realizing that I couldn't always just go in and make an A on a test without studying or, you know, a lot of that was having to realize that this college was a different academic experience for me. And I was actually going to have to try, and I had never had to develop study habits.

Scott Benner 27:02
Okay, it just everything always worked out for you until you got to this scenario where suddenly nothing was working out.

Hawley 27:09
Yes. Except, yeah, yeah. Except

Scott Benner 27:11
for Well, well, you also said here that you had anxiety around that, did you ever get treated for the anxiety or talk to anybody about the anxiety?

Hawley 27:21
I brought up some of this stuff at from a young age. I brought up concerns. And I think maybe generationally that my mom had a lot of distrust for mental health professionals, I think that was pretty common. You know, for her generation, there was a lot of the like, life is hard. You just got to buck up and make it work. Okay, no, I kept, and I brought up these concerns throughout life. And eventually, it took until I was older. And I found out I went back to school, I left that school transferred to a back home, my health got pretty bad, my mental and physical health as far as you know, not in a good place. And my specialist was at the Children's Hospital, in Little Rock. So that five and a half hours home three and a half hours down to the Children's Hospital. And I couldn't find a doctor, I liked up where I was. My parents, you know, asked if I wanted to come home to be closer to my doctor. And it felt like the right choice because I needed more support. And so I came back and went back to school there locally, and found out about the psychology clinic on campus. And it was a really low cost. And so I went there. But but no one really, again, I didn't have the right words, and my mom just didn't really see the benefit and talking to someone and kind of just thought if I put my nose down, like why was I having? Why was I having so much of a hard time I was smart. Just get your degree and get it over with but it just kept not working. And eventually, I felt like this doesn't make any sense. I am smart. Why do I keep failing and I noticed a cycle of not sleeping trouble sleeping. You know, there was drinking going out. And it just was cyclical, but it kind of came down to the part in part because the ADHD, I just didn't know how to manage every thing. Yeah. And finally, I did go to that psychology clinic and had official testing done and was diagnosed but not until by this point. I've been added in and out of school and I was like 28.

Scott Benner 30:03
Wow. Okay, were you how are you supporting yourself? Well, my parents

Hawley 30:07
were extremely supportive. They believed in me and probably honestly enabled me. But I also worked like five jobs at one point. You know, I was bartending at two to two different places. I worked at an animal hospital. I also did private babysitting nanny, and I've always loved childcare. I worked really hard. You know, so it's kind of a mix.

Scott Benner 30:35
Yeah. So there's just a whole bunch going on. Listen, you have something here that I don't quite understand. You know, I could talk about the mental health diagnosis, undiagnosed, ADHD and autism, are you are you autistic.

Hawley 30:49
So I don't have an official diagnosis. I'm self diagnosed my I have been, I would call it clinically, like couched diagnosed by a therapist. I haven't taken any official assessments. And I'm not sure I'm going to, because that has ramifications as well. But my daughter who's 10 has been in therapy since she was three. And, as is very common, I'm learning for mothers, as they are helping their children get the support and services they need. And they they go down that research tunnel to support their child, they start relating to a lot of things and realize that they're looking in a little mini mirror. And so my daughter is on a waitlist, the place here that does assessments, there's, you know, months long, like 910 months to get in to be assessed. She most likely has what they call pathological demand avoidance. Here in the US, a lot of kids get diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder, which is something she's been diagnosed with, but doesn't have. She has PDA which is like a under the umbrella of autism. It's a really interesting, it's a cat at the they use it as a diagnostic criteria in the UK. We don't have it here. But what does it mean? Pathological demand avoidance, like, what does that what does that?

Scott Benner 32:25
Yeah, what does it translate to for her behavior?

Hawley 32:28
So she has a very high drive for autonomy. And she has, sorry, I had an alert go off, you're fine. She is demand avoidant, but is very bright and capable. They're frequently seen as manipulative and, like argumentative, because they really want to avoid basic demands, like teeth brushing hygiene, when even just asking a question feel like a demand. And so there's all of this opposition ality, but it's usually sometimes creatively addressed. It also means she has like, she really sees herself as someone who should have exactly the same rights as an adult and doesn't understand, like, why kids don't have the same freedom as adults. And to be fair, she has the right a lot of the time. I mean, like, but yeah, so it's,

Scott Benner 33:35
like a real world example of it happening. When's the last time you've you? Did it happen? You thought, Oh, this is that.

Hawley 33:43
So I'm learning, the more I learn about it. I'm learning. You learn to identify, and I'm still working on that. But like, eating is really a struggle, and the demand around making food choices and even like restaurants, we have many of her meltdowns happen in the car, like you've already got the stimulus of being in the car transitions are hard. And then now we need to make a choice. And so if it if it can't, it's like, sometimes she'll just completely ignore me. Because she doesn't want to answer the question because she doesn't want to make the choice. She's having anxiety about making the choice. And then she goes from kind of avoidant right to them, her fight or flight kicks in, and she suddenly seems kind of mean. And then I realize she's near meltdown, and she might burst into tears and start crying and saying like, I don't know, I'm just so hungry. I can't think straight. I don't want to make a choice. And you just have to, like, it's um, I don't I don't know, there's, there's, I don't want to say nuance that, like, I'm still learning to identify it. And it's complicated because she's so good at masking and appearing as if everything is okay. I'm still taken aback sometimes by a meltdown, because I don't realize she's been stressed. And I missed her cues. And, and then we're full blown meltdown. Like, yeah, so

Scott Benner 35:37
how frequent? Are they?

Hawley 35:40
Sorry, I'm like, No, you're fine. I'm managing emotions here. But you're just she. So we actually just decided to homeschool. She went back to school for three days after winter break. And she came home. And it's something we've talked about for a while. But she had a meltdown about going back to school and, like, ran me through what that experience was like for her. And I just was like, no, no, no more like, why are we? Why are we doing this, because when she's in school, every night, and every morning is preparing for bed and preparing for school are because that's when all the demands are right, get up, get ready, brush your teeth, put on clothes, you need to eat something, you've got to get dressed, you got to get up. And I have been in childcare, huge chunk of my life, and usually do so good with kids. And then I worked for a nonprofit, and did all of this Conscious Discipline training and early childhood training and education. And I just thought that there, what was wrong with me that I couldn't help my child and the way it could help these other children, and her meltdowns are less frequent. Now, she's on Prozac and on Ritalin, and it has been life altering for us, like life altering. Prior to that she was having self harm thoughts. And at like 677 Was she seven somewhere in I think maybe seven. But, you know, so it's way better than it was, but it's still somewhat frequent, which is why we're removing school, because I want to see if it helps,

Scott Benner 37:38
okay, does anything help this was mask

Hawley 37:42
lowering demands, like, so when she goes to school, she, what they call masks, right. So she knows how she's supposed to act. She knows she, she feels that she can't be herself at school, she told me, she told me she feels like a book. Like she needs to look pretty on the outside, but no one knows what's actually on the inside. So she goes, and she said that at school, you can't really have emotions, except for happy or calm, like you. They don't want you to be upset or sad, you know, and they just kind of want you to pretend like everything's okay, even if it's not. And then you have all the stimulus, you know, for her 504 accommodation, she asked if they could put a box in the room that she could go close herself into when she got overwhelmed. And, and so the demands of school, whether it be sensory, you know, or whatever, because it's not academically, you know, scoring is all high. It's, it's all the other social navigating, and following the all of that stuff. And so I'd pick her up, and she would, more than a typical child would just fall out and basically lose it. Because she had used all of her energy all day to do all the right things at school. Just since she's been home, I've seen more of a willingness to help around the home, pick up after herself. She did self LED reading for an hour and a half, she normally would not do that. So I'm hoping that this is what helps that by taking her out of that environment that was causing her to be depleted every day that she has the reserves to then do other things. So that's my hope.

Scott Benner 39:51
Okay, is this a thing that you've seen change over time with her she gets older or no,

Hawley 39:57
I've known there was some thing going on again since she was about three, and it has changed for the better. But because because the more verbal she got, the more she learned through therapy and through us just really were working. And she has all the language now and the ability and because her brain is supported with that anxiety medicine, instead of just losing it like she might have before she can verbalize and say, I just can't. I you know, whatever it like whatever she she can verbalize sometimes prior to melting down so we can head off a meltdown. Because it versus before it might be she was just losing her mind. Sorry, that's not I shouldn't say it that way. But like, for me, it would feel like out of nowhere, why is my child you know, just having this huge thing. And now that I know what I know it, you know, it makes sense. But back then it didn't. And I would just be like what's wrong, you know? So, so there has been a change for the positive with with time.

Scott Benner 41:15
Do you have any of the issues that she has? Yeah. Yeah. Which ones?

Hawley 41:22
My parents used to say, you know, if you ever want a surefire way to get you know, Holly to to do something is to tell her she can't do it. So I definitely have opposition. ality right. Anxiety. And her and I both are very literal, and high justice thinkers, you know, high sense of fairness and justice, like the world not being fair, it's very difficult for us. We're both we both thing and like to perform and use that as a way to self regulate. You know, we have we have a lot of similarities. I'm still, I mean, heck, I'm 40. And I'm still figuring out, I just feel like I'm just learning about myself some of these things.

Scott Benner 42:25
Now. Does it impact your life? Does it impede your adult life?

Hawley 42:29
Yes. I mean, yes, and yes, and no, yes. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I look back and think, oh, my gosh, what would life have been like, if I'd known from the get go? I, you know, like, I'm on Ritalin now and Prozac. My, my daughter did the gene site testing where they test for which medicines may have, you know, interactions with the, with her body. And I've had poor response to most meds throughout my life. I've tried lots of different antidepressants, etc. And so I thought, well, she's half me, so maybe that the same medicine might work for me and guess what they do? So I'm now on Prozac and Ritalin and they've been helpful.

Scott Benner 43:29
Good before them, what an after them what? For you. Before them you felt like fill in the blank soon.

Hawley 43:38
Okay. All right before Prozac. I didn't realize the amount of anxiety I was having, because I had always had it. So I thought that was just what it felt like to be alive. Okay. After a specific example, pet sitting in a home, my daughter put a hot, slightly damp paper plate on a dark table and made a white stain. And, sure, normally, I think I would have had, like, my heart would have started racing, and I would have frantically Googled how to fix it. And instead, I looked at it, and I was like, Uh, I know, I can figure out how to fix that. I'll get to it. And then like, two days later, I did Google it, and then I fixed it. But before it would have been, like, panic thoughts of the client wanting to fire me, they're gonna leave a Google review. They're gonna, you know, never whatever, and we've ruined their table and how much is that table and I would have just spun into all these. Now this would be quiet and internal. Right? But, but it would have been rapid thoughts about all the things that the consequences and instead I just was able to look at it and be like, oh, and Oh, that safer stocks about we can figure it out. And if not, I have insurance, I'm insured and bonded, and it'll pay for a new table. And that would not have been the response before.

Scott Benner 45:11
Hey, real quick, what is the way to fix the steam rank on the table?

Hawley 45:14
So there were a couple of different options. I think I went with Magic Eraser lightly. And there were other ones that were like, you could like lay up cloth and iron, use an iron and it would evaporate it. I just went with a light buffing with a magic magic eraser and it brought the brought it right off. Interesting. And then I oil I avoided and clean the table very nicely. And it looks great. Look Good. Did you tell the people? No, I did not tell

Scott Benner 45:42
them what to do. Okay, so So by figuring out her stuff, you're helping yourself and figuring out your stuff as well. Yes, going back before you knew these things about yourself, you you have a list here to talk about diabetes with like intimate partners. So what are some of the things that you ran into in your earlier life?

Hawley 46:06
Oh, I think that was like after dark. I don't know if he wanted. I just I don't know exactly what you're hoping from this. But the first thing that comes to mind for me is that I. Now granted, I do think my brain is a little different. But so many women worry about their devices and their bodies, and, and, you know, sexual intimacy with partners. And that being, you know, not sexy. And anytime I've ever, because I wear my stuff on my arms visible all the time, you know, I just have never hidden it. And I've been on a pump since 2005, I believe. And I had a boyfriend and like, he didn't care and it didn't. Were there like the moments of Hang on, I need to disconnect and whatever. But he just, it didn't matter. And I've just always said, you know, like, if you're with sub, first of all, I think they care a lot less than you think they do. Because the you know, the sex is the golden boy. Right? And if you're having a sex, I don't think they care that you got a tube on your belly, they don't see me wearing a clown feet, I wouldn't care. They don't care, first of all your way giving them too much credit. And second of all, you know, if they do care about something like that, that is not a partner that you want in your life, correct? Yeah. And I just especially young women, I think, although really that's not fair. It's it's it's any but newly diagnosed is what I shouldn't say, worry about that. And you just that is something if I could just give them confidence to know that the partner that you want that you want to be with does not care. I wish they could really know that in their heart because it breaks my heart when women worry about that.

Scott Benner 48:09
Anybody I saw on the private Facebook group, just recently, a man asked the same questions, was very worried that a woman wouldn't love him because he had diabetes, and talked about all the number of these different things. Yeah, I think I think maybe it's something anybody might feel so well. It's nice to to share that. That. That you so did you find somebody that didn't care long term? Or? I mean, you're a single parent, right? How did that all work out?

Hawley 48:37
Well, none of my boyfriend's have ever cared. I will i i will say I have figured out like, what is my blood sugar? Hang on just a

Scott Benner 48:50
little jittery? Am I making your blood sugar go up or down?

Hawley 48:53
No, I'm 140 straight across. So

Scott Benner 48:59
difficult to talk about this stuff where you

Hawley 49:02
know, I've just I think caffeine is kicking in because I've made a cup of coffee before thing. But sometimes caffeine jitters can feel a little bit like am I dipping down for me? Like if I'm dropping fast, that kind of food. Caffeine can because I haven't caffeine on an on an empty stomach. So those two things can feel a little similar. Gotcha. But no, it's not difficult. At least not so far. The other thing with you know, I have experienced like intimate partner domestic violence and I diabetes will really anything can be used against you but like I definitely just wanted to mention that like anyone making you feel sad about things out of your control that have to do with your chronic illness or your health. Like they're, they're not coming from a good place, like, like, because I luckily never had anyone and never, he never withheld access to medicine, he never like that. It's very odd how these relationships can be really wonderful. Like, you know, 80% great, but then the 20% is really, really bad, you know. And that kind of the tricky thing about them and why you get stuck in them sometimes for a while, is that there's a lot of good sometimes. But there there are things like even someone who like if you need help, and you need someone to bring you something because your blood sugar's low, and they're unwilling to walk down the stairs and get that and they make you feel like bad about putting that on them that you needed help to get, you know, to get something that's that's a flag. So just, you know, pay attention to those things, and how they make you feel about it. That's that's kind of the the I think that's why I put intimate partner stuff because I have had, yeah, some of that.

Scott Benner 51:16
Have you had any issues? Or I guess that's not the right way to ask the question. Like, what what's your approach been with intimacy since you had a mastectomy? Does that change things?

Hawley 51:28
Not really. It's again, ladies. I can't say no man. Not having nipples is not a deterrent from getting laid. They don't care. I have Barbie boobs. There are no nipples. They don't care. Self Care.

Scott Benner 51:48
Holly, are you here to say the vagina is really the important part.

Hawley 51:52
I I'm gonna say for a lot at this seems to be the important part. It's funny. Right? The I just, I mean, I'm covered in scars, and I feel like a bionic lady. I've got a port in my top of my chest area. And I've got, you know, two devices strapped onto me all the time. And, you know, like, it just doesn't matter. It really doesn't. And is your death

Scott Benner 52:25
is your is your port for the for the cancer still?

Hawley 52:29
Yeah, so one of my friends had breast cancer about I want to say two years prior to me, and she had said that she held on to her port, because post treatment, she actually ended up using it quite a bit for different things, fluid and some other stuff. And she said, she had decided to leave it in until the five year mark. And when I had my port placement, it was out of all the surgeries, it was very painful. For me, it was very, I don't know why. But it was horrible. And I also had had so many surgeries, I was just burnt out on having surgeries. They said as long as I do port flushes that I can leave it in as long as I want. And I tend to suffer with I get dehydrated just really easily. I don't really know why but I do. And so the port has actually been helpful. My oncologist is wonderful shout out to Dr. tribe. And then he will just call me in a bag of fluids. And let me go in and I can just go to the infusion suite and get fluids and it's been I wish that was more accessible to more people because as a diabetic that has been hugely valuable for me.

Scott Benner 53:52
You're talking just about a saline like to get hydrated or other things.

Hawley 53:56
No, just just usually, you know, failing. Whatever. Whatever. Yeah. Okay.

Scott Benner 54:04
Yeah. Your your, your list of things. You sent me an email, it says after dark or whatever. And like your list of things on here are fascinating. Like I feel like we would make seven left turns but I kind of want to go through a couple of them more quickly. Is that Is that okay? Absolutely. Go ahead. What does this mean running for office?

Hawley 54:24
I ran for state public office.

Scott Benner 54:27
Did you get elected?

Hawley 54:29
I did not but but in a red state. I lost by a lot less than other people.

Scott Benner 54:39
What was the thing that made you want to run for what office did you run for and what made you want to do it?

Hawley 54:45
I ran for state representative and district Ada and I will so I was putting myself back through school again. In right, this time with a child as a single parent, and I experienced God, when was that I think I had my daughter. And right around when I had my daughter's when the Affordable Health Care Act passed, okay, I was able to apply for insurance, it took forever, but I was covered. I was very lucky that my parents paid an exorbitant amount of money to help me have insurance coverage until that point. Okay, so let me just say that the privilege that but so since then, kind of like post baby is when I've been kind of on my own, shall we say, right, though, 10 years, I had to navigate what applying for Medicaid and the Affordable Health Care Act and snap, which is like the Supplemental Nutritional Assistance Program here in the state of Arkansas. And I just as a person who's very efficient and likes things to be very functional, I was completely confused by how horrible the system was for people to get what they needed. Meaning like insurance coverage or whatever, just like things like, Okay, well, I'm pretty bright. And the what's the average literacy, you know, level for the state of Arkansas something like eighth grade or something? Well, it's, it's pretty low. Okay. And so they're sending out forms that are so purposefully obtuse, that I was, like, thin taking pictures and sending them and being like, read this, what does this mean to you? You know, so to me, it felt like a trap. And I thought, if I'm struggling this much, like, and I have, you know, post secondary education and a high reading comprehension level, how are they expecting your average, just your average Joe? To navigate? I don't know. So I started there. And then I won't go into politics. But then some other things happened that made me feel like we needed people who could see both sides of a situation and could really listened to people and make choices that were rational and based on science, and you know, and I kept looking around going, who can I support? Who's going to step up that I can support? And, you know, you realized at some point that if you want, if you want someone up there like you, sometimes you have to point the finger at yourself and step up and go for it?

Scott Benner 57:51
Well, I want to tell you the highest literacy rate looks like it stands with New Hampshire, and 94.2%, California and the lowest 76.9. And the truth is, is that Arkansas doesn't even fall in the top in the bottom 10. So hold on one second, but it seems like about one in every five people is below below the line of being considered literate. Generally speaking, at 6%, let me so your real concern was just for people who were being presented with things that couldn't, couldn't make enough sense of them to make a good decision for themselves.

Hawley 58:32
Yeah, I mean, that was one access to health care for me. Access to health care was hugely important to me. And I felt like people should have that they should have that. And that's, you know, I ended up working for a nonprofit where I helped people apply for those benefits, and I was able to use my own experience. And then you add in, you know, English as a second language barriers and poverty barriers, and just all sorts of things that you realize are there in the community. And, like, it just was absurd to look at the members of our state legislature that so many of them are so far removed from the average arkansan and the life that they were living like me, that they they couldn't fathom those experiences, because they either never experienced them or had been so long since they had it wasn't real to them anymore. It didn't feel real.

Scott Benner 59:38
What do you do to run for state legislator, like you have to like, you have to get enough for like signatures right on a petition and then you know, how do you run How do you run them? What is that you

Hawley 59:50
five to run you? You decide to run and then you know you declare whatever party you're gonna run for you probably reach out to your County, you know, party committee and let them know you're interested in running, you have to be registered with them, you know. And then if there's another person who's of the same party you are, you would primary against them, you have to file you have to fundraise a filing fee in the state of Arkansas, different states are different. But like, in where I was, no one had run under the party I was under for I forget how many years so the filing fee was lower, because they were trying to encourage someone to run right. So you file go down to the Capitol, and there's filing day and you turn in your paperwork and sign all the official documents and and then you are an official candidate for your

Scott Benner 1:00:45
door or you do something online? How do you reach people?

Hawley 1:00:49
Oh, do you mean on filing day or

Scott Benner 1:00:54
while you're running? You're trying to get people to, to be interested in what you're saying? How do you get to them?

Hawley 1:00:59
Well, that's entire people's jobs to do field management, campaign management, digital marketing and outreach. So essentially, you know, so my degree is communication, right. And that's what I ended up doing. Because I just find people fascinating and communication fascinating. Essentially, you make a plan. And if you're lucky, you have some resources and support from your county party or state party that tell you maybe some avenues to do that. You can hire campaigns man and campaign manager, you know, with your own money if you can sell fund, but if not, you have to campaign like fine, like raise enough to pay your campaign manager. And I didn't have any money. So I paid for mine by fundraising, which is essentially cold calling people you know, and asking for donations or reaching out to people through networking and asking if they'd support your campaign. And you use that money to run a campaign that ideally reaches the voters who you most need to reach and you know that through basically data, mining data and finding the voters that you need. So you have you have canvassing, actually door knocking, you have print mail, digital write outreach, you also have social media outreach. And then in person outreach, you do, and you know, and then you're also going to be hopefully doing interviews with local media in some way. So it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing.

Scott Benner 1:02:35
Interesting. That's very interesting.

Hawley 1:02:38
It was it was a wonderful learning experience.

Scott Benner 1:02:40
No, really, it sounds kind of incredible. I'm going to ask you, if there's anything we haven't talked about, that you want to talk about?

Hawley 1:02:48
I think, you know, we didn't we started to talk about drinking and then kind of went away from it. Yeah. Well,

Scott Benner 1:02:53
after drinking, you got where you said you had you were surrounded by drugs. Were you doing them?

Hawley 1:02:59
No, not really. I'm afraid of most of them. You know, I was a bartender and lived like a bartender lifestar style for many years. And, you know, was a smoker, I smoked and, you know, have quit and started and quit and started and, you know, I just, again, think diabetes, there's so much shame around what you're not supposed to do. And I think that's such a heavy thing to carry. With drinking. I guess specifically, I wanted, you know, people to know that they're in there. I think it's a lot more known now. Because we have peer sharing, like like in your group, right? The Facebook group, if you're not in the Facebook group, shout out go get in the Facebook group, but like that peer to peer sharing that is there. Now we didn't have that. Like I only knew two other three, three other diabetics maybe growing up, or? Yeah, I mean, you know, that was it. That were around my age. And so everything I did was kind of like, okay, I noticed when I drained my blood sugar trends low after I stopped drinking and like go to bed and then you know, that was on MDI, well, now then you have the pump in there, and it's like, okay, so I'm going to turn my Basal down by 30% from 2am to 6am. While I'm sleeping and because i You don't anyway, so like, there are definitely things you can do. But you need to be safe in trialing and to see what works for your body because everyone responds to different alcohols differently. And I also really encourage you to talk to your bartenders at the bartender. You know, like I always if I'm going in, I make friends with the bar Our tenders and I let I want you to know they can be on your team. Not I mean, I tell them I'm diabetic, I let them know, like, this is, you know, this doesn't happen to me, but I've never had a seizure. But if I did, this is what you should do. You know, and I and I, and I do that. And I think if you're young, like, don't be afraid to just go and mention that because for me, it's like, you're better off running over and letting them know that because that also means that when my blood sugar did go low, that I could walk up and say something, and when I just needed a half a cup of orange juice, they just gave me a half a cup of orange juice. And we're like, here you go, you know, and they they believe you when you need help, because you've already told them that before your four sheets to the wind, whatever.

Scott Benner 1:06:00
So tell, did you do this for people when you were attending bar? Did nobody ever asked you?

Hawley 1:06:06
Meaning? No, I don't think I think I did have some people because again, once I started wearing a deck calm, it was more visible. But that happened later. I don't know. I can't remember I did definitely give someone who said they were hypoglycemic or excuse before, but I don't think I've ever had another type one come up. But I did save one gal who was type one who I knew loosely. And I walked into a bathroom and she was basically hugging a toilet had a ramshackle TR on and it was her 21st birthday. And her friends came in and they were like, oh my god, are you still throwing up and and I said, Hey, you know, She's diabetic. Have you guys checked her blood sugar? Because I knew her. I knew her prior. So I knew she was diabetic. And they said, Well, we've been given her juice. And I was like, Well, did you check her blood sugar? Because if it's high, you don't need to be given her juice. Like what kind of shots has she been taking, like sweet shots are straight, like what? And so I helped prick her finger. And the bodyguard wanted to carry her out. And he didn't want me to do anything like on premises. And I told him to back off, and that I was going to check her blood sugar at least before he tried to move or anywhere. And it was like 480 You know, it was just like, sky high. And he wouldn't let me give her insulin on premises. And I think I helped them out to the car. And I said you guys need to they were all drunk. And none of them knew how to take care of her. And I said, you know, I'm not I think I gave her like a tiny Bolus, like how she was able to kind of talk to me and I gave her like a mini those, like, not a full dose. But, and I said someone needs to say with or whatever. And she's, she's fine. I've seen her since then. And she thanked me. But like, you know, that's why I say if your crew doesn't know what to do, then, I mean, there are consequences that can come with that. And that's, you know, drinking can be scary, but it can also be safe.

Scott Benner 1:08:29
Well, I appreciate you bringing all this up. I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing this you have had a fairly eclectic life for it not being very long. So funny. You're not that old. There's stuff on here I didn't get to. i i How do you describe how you're doing? I think this is how I kind of want to end like how do you feel like you're doing with your diabetes, for example?

Hawley 1:08:53
pretty phenomenal. Yeah. Okay. Like I have of all the health things that I managed. What's interesting is I thought I was not doing a good job. I went to see my endocrinologist and he had a med student in the room with him and I said oh my god, my blood sugar's have been horrible. He of course this was a onesie right so whatever. But so he shows the swivels the screen to the med student, and he says, This is what she thinks it's horrible. I mean, he says these are her last Awan seeds from the last however many, you know, polls, and the eyebrows go up on the student and I thought, Oh God, it's that bad. He laughed and he said no, like, you're great. You're, you know, I have always micromanaged my diabetes. And I'm like a manual micromanager, you know, bump bump and nudge bump and nudge all that stuff. Now I'm on the Omnipod five, and it has been a huge relief. I sleep much better. My I like the other day Hey, I think I got the highest time and range I've had which Yeah, which was like 88%. Time and range is terrific. But like, I think my average is probably more like high, high 70s. You know, low 80s is probably more, I don't know, what's your

Scott Benner 1:10:16
range that?

Hawley 1:10:17
I don't know what I have it at right now I change it sometimes, depending on how much mental energy I have. Okay, how much do I want my devices to yell at me today? You know? Yeah, I think I have it like between, like 180. And no, I haven't higher, I have it at 210. Because the other day I had ketones. And I just was sitting between 180 and 205. And I was at work and my thing kept going off. And I needed it to stop. And so I bumped it up, I'm going to change that back down. So I mess with mine a little bit. Because, you know, it really sucks the life out of you. Sometimes if you're trying to manage something, and it won't stop for me, especially I think probably with sensory issues. Having an alert going off becomes like near rage inducing. You just want to throw it across the room and like shut up. I know, I've already done all the things.

Scott Benner 1:11:15
But I've done all the things.

Hawley 1:11:20
I've already done all the things I know it's still at 180 Quit yelling at me. But in general, my diabetes is great. But it's also the thing that absolutely takes the most out of you, I think for just constant surveillance. You know, someone asked me about cancer, and I said, Oh, God, you know, type one diabetes, it was harder than cancer like, yeah, I could I could have died. But like, you know how many times you face death as a diabetic? Like just all the time? You know, so like, the cancer thing was scary. Yeah, that's terrifying. But like, you go through the horrible thing, and then you do the chemo. And yes, it's horrible, too. But in my mind, the burden of diabetes management was worse than that cancer experience.

Scott Benner 1:12:10
That's a interesting perspective. For sure.

Hawley 1:12:13
Well, it's lifelong. I mean, it's lifelong, right.

Scott Benner 1:12:16
Now, I take your point, I really do. And I appreciate you sharing all your perspectives, and helping me dig into this stuff with your daughter and yourself and, and shining some light on some things I don't know a lot of people really think about or have ever heard of so?

Hawley 1:12:32
Well, I still would, I would love for you and Arden to do an assessment to figure out your neurology. I'm highly curious and intrigued

Scott Benner 1:12:41
about me. Yeah. So what about me?

Hawley 1:12:44
When I listen to your episodes, and you talk with other people who are neurodivergent and have other things, it's funny, I lost my notes. Of course I did. Because I usually listen on roads when I'm driving. And so it's hard to, you know, whatever. But I, I've heard you say things and you said, well, doesn't everybody do that? And I'm like, No, Scott, everybody doesn't do that. So I am curious, like to see what kind of scoring you guys would have with things like that? Like what like what's like it like it like an official like ADHD autism assessment with like, you know, whether online or with whatever. I'm very curious. Do you remember the episode where you said, you didn't know why you were good at this? I forget who you were talking to. But you said, once we start rolling, I just can do it. And I feel like, I don't know, you have said several different things. What really resonated with me. And I've just been very curious to know, especially with Arden's unique sense of humor. But anyway, I will private business, I am super curious,

Scott Benner 1:13:53
listen, let me I'll share something with you. And we'll see if you think I'm making sense or not. I think that because of the, the, the the structure that is set up here, right, like I'm a, like a voice in your head. And there are so many episodes and we feel like we know each other. And I think people listen, and they think they know me. And I think that they take things that I hear and apply them to themselves sometimes, which I think is, is good. It's how it's how you set up a trust relationship. When it's only one way because honestly, you're speaking to me now. But prior to that, I've speak I've spoken to you a lot and you've never spoken to me. So I mean, if you have questions, you could ask them, anybody could come on and ask questions about me, but I I don't think I'm on the autism spectrum. I don't think I have ADHD. And but people say Oh, I you definitely have ADHD. Like I hear that from people all the time when you talk to them a little bit. They have ADHD and they think that they've heard something in me that relates to them and because As they have ADHD I have ADHD, that just sort of seems how it goes. Like, as I've done this for a while, I've also, you know, I'm trying to be humorous at times, right? I'm trying to keep it interesting, and things like that. So I say funny things, or I tried to say it's not funny things. You know, like, I don't know that somebody who would like make a pot, like I was listening to a podcast the other day. So I heard about this podcast, I don't want to be specific about who it was. And this person has a podcast, they were on somebody else's podcast, this is a big thing that podcasters do when they're trying to drive traffic to their podcasts. I don't do that. And I'm gonna sound like pompous for a second. I don't do that, because I don't need to drive traffic to my podcast. But I also don't do that, because I don't find other people's podcasts. Let me be clear, it's not that I've heard them and don't like them. I make a podcast that I would listen to. And there are not a lot of them that are like this. And in the space of diabetes, specifically, I don't think there's any, but I got interested for a second, I heard this person say that this one podcaster went on this other podcasters podcast, and they wanted to hear about it. And I start to listen. And it was painfully boring to me. And the host, clearly was reading from a list. Right? And they would it reminded me very much of watching the Tonight Show with like, you know, where the, the host is like, so I hear you've had an experience at the zoo. Holly, and you're and you're a you're a comedian, you go, Well, yeah. And then you start telling a joke about the zoo. And like, I set them up, and you knock them down, and I set them up. And I don't really have any questions. And I'm not really listening to what you're saying, I'm just waiting for you to finish the zoo story. So I can go to the second thing on my list and say something else, that puts you into your act a little bit. And that's what I was hearing. I was hearing this person had come on the show, they had clearly spoken beforehand, they had clearly written down a list of things to talk about. The host would say, you know, number one, I hear you had an incident at the zoo recently. And then the person being interviewed launched into a story that you could tell, she had told a million times. And then there was a pause. And then the host was like, Well, that was interesting. And I'm thinking to myself, No, it wasn't. And then they asked the next question. And then, and then they asked the next question. And then the the guest launched into another prepackaged story that I bet you they've told 1000 times to somebody. And it kept going on and on and on. No, no, it kept going on and on. And I thought, how could anyone listen to this? And then I realized that the podcast that they were on had already basically been discontinued. And I thought, oh, there's your answer. Nobody was listening to it. And then I thought, well, this is why my podcast doesn't fall into this category is because when you get on, I don't know who you are. And we're getting to know each other. And I'm interested, either I'm interested in what you're saying. And it makes me think to ask a question, or as you're talking, I think, well, this is really something I can't add to, and I let you talk. Sometimes people come on, and they're not good talkers, and I have to fill a little more for them. But that's pretty much it. But I don't know why I told you that other than to say, I don't plan this podcast, but I don't not plan this podcast because I have ADHD. I don't plan this podcast because it would suck if I did.

Hawley 1:18:33
No, yes. No. And that's not what you were saying. It's just where I went with it. Yes, I, I just have noticed. And I'd be interested, I would love it. If he would talk to someone, there's just a huge overlap and like auto immune, and, you know, sure, then this neurological stuff and inflammation. And I I love, I just appreciate so much that you're bringing people on and letting them talk about all these different things because they do so frequently overlap. And I think it's really important because like, the more you know, and configure out the better you can, you know, manage and improve your quality. You know, yeah, I

Scott Benner 1:19:13
1,000,000% agree with that. I think that's obvious. It's because it's what I do, but, but I do. I do think of this other part of it like for you say again, how

Hawley 1:19:23
old are you? 40

Scott Benner 1:19:24
Okay, I've spoken to you now for an hour and 22 minutes, you have done nothing that makes me think you're on the autism spectrum. And why and how's your life going? Is it okay? Are you do you have like some major impediment that you need to know? Like, like, what, what if you were What if you had autism? Would that change something for you?

Hawley 1:19:45
If so, the only So, as an autistic person for me, the biggest thing has been looking back at past experience and making sense of things that I couldn't explain before. And now make sense. And it also allows me to make changes about the choices I make in my life and allowing myself more grace with things where before I probably would have beat myself up about them, like, sorry, I'm getting emotional again, like, like, I'm learning that, you know, it's like, like, there's not something wrong with you. And that there's a reason you feel so strongly or did something in the past, you know, like, like, I was bullied pretty relentlessly, like, like, in and always feeling other, like different and, and going, I don't get it. I don't really look that different. I'm, I'm, I'm funny. I'm smart, like, I'm reasonably attractive. Why do I feel like nobody gets me like, it has helped me and is helping me understand my whole life. So it is very important to me to know it. Not that not that other people know it. I don't I don't need the official diagnosis. Because just learning what I've learned, has changed. Me and my life. I know.

Scott Benner 1:21:17
So I understand what you're saying. So let me ask you a follow up question. So if getting a diagnosis, for example, wouldn't change you moving forward? Right? It would give you context for looking back. But what if I just said to you, Holly, that's who you are. There's your context. Is that not okay?

Hawley 1:21:35
Can you expand on that Mr. Hawley, that's who you are. That's who you

Scott Benner 1:21:39
are, that this is who you are. And this is how you interacted with people. And it's how you felt when you had those interactions. And you had these experiences, and you thought to launch yourself into those experiences, because that's how your brain works. And so my question is, is that it feels like, and this is not directed at UCI, I never want to say this on the podcast, because I'm not directing it at you. I'm directing it at like society as a big picture. Everyone feels like they want to get diagnosed with something all of a sudden. Does that? No, did you notice that in culture right now.

Hawley 1:22:12
So it is, I think, I think that there has, because of things like tick tock and social media, it's not that everyone wants to get diagnosed, it's that there's a level of awareness that was not there prior. And people are just like, we relate with our diabetes, and we reach out and people seek support because of this diabetes diagnosis. You're you're drawn to other people who have similar experiences to you, whether you know it or not, that algorithm is working to do that, right. And so then you realize that those things that you didn't know are actually a thing with a label, and it suddenly makes sense. And so I don't think it's that there's a desire to have a label or to be diagnosed with something, I think it's that people are like, Oh, my God, I, I'm 40 years old, and I just realized, I've lived my whole life. And all of these things are intertwined. And they're making sense of themselves. And there's also the I mean, this has been coming for a while because I think mental health advocacy has been on the rise and more of an openness, about sharing about mental health. And so bit by bit as we're people lose this stigma and talk about it more, they're not just talking about mental health, they're talking about these other things. And so it's just that we're seeing the result of younger generations that are more comfortable talking about it, you know, doing that, and then it kind of like, I don't know, women didn't used to wear pants and to normalize wearing pants, you have to have a lot of people like wearing pants, and then and then it's normal and, like

Scott Benner 1:24:03
so. Okay, so let me let me keep going. Right? So have you ever been online and seen somebody like say something like, oh my god, I'm sorry, that's my ADHD. And you're like, you don't have ADHD, just something like took your attention for a second, or you know, somebody, you know, I have PTSD, and then you start talking to him about it, and they don't have PTSD. They just something bad happened to them once. And it feels like it's from my perspective, just from the outside looking in, or just being a, you know, an observer. I'm not saying everybody, I'm saying that it feels like people want to, like they want to have a reason for everything they are. My point is, is that if we isn't then that just normal, because if everybody's got a little ADHD and everybody's had something bad happened to them that you know, colors, how they move forward. And I mean, anxiety is an example like, anxiety is what keeps you alive, right? Like sometimes it's crippling. thing, but but everybody has some level of anxiety. So if everybody has this and everybody has that everybody has this, and I don't always feel like a boy. And like, if all that exists for everybody, then isn't that what normal is? If everybody feels that way?

Hawley 1:25:14
Well, what you describe to me is sounds like when someone who doesn't actually know what ADHD is, or they're being like they're throwing around a term like I have, oh, well, but I'm kind of OCD about cleaning. But they don't literally mean OCD, right? They know that that's like a misuse of a term, right? There's that. And then there's someone who's, like, for me, I have decided to be open about my stuff. And I tell people, like, hey, when we get off the phone, I'm gonna set a reminder to call you back about this tomorrow, because I have ADHD. And I'm also going to put it in my calendar. But if you don't hear from me, will you please touch base with me by five? So like, that's me communicating a specific thing I'm doing to prevent my ADHD from sabotaging something, and also set myself up for success. It's a coping tool, you know, it's a thing that I've done to improve my, my, my life, right. Yeah. So I don't know, I, I don't think it's, I think that it's not normal, whatever normal, whatever the hell that means. But I think that it is probably something that there's a much larger percent of the population that has it that like, or, but but has gone undiagnosed for a long time, you know, so we're just going to, it's going to seem like there's a lot more people, when in reality, it's just that they're just figuring it out.

Scott Benner 1:26:52
So are you. So I'm, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here. But I don't think we should get to the point where forgetting to return a phone call is a diagnosable disorder.

Hawley 1:27:05
No, but that, that is not that is not

Scott Benner 1:27:08
what you're saying, though, like you're saying that is completely possible for you to get distracted in a way that you will forget something that's very important. Yes, yes. That is, I'm gonna say something that you're gonna laugh at. You don't think that happens to everybody?

Hawley 1:27:23
No, I think that I think that what you have to look at is like, frequency, intensity, and like, is it negatively impacting your life in a real way? So like, everyone has, you know, everyone has anxiety, but how much is it negatively impacting their life? How is it impacting their ability to function, when you have, you know, when you might be a kind of forgetful person who occasionally Miss places their key, you know, but like, my, my ex, not my daughter's dad, but my recent ex boyfriend, who is still a very dear close friend, his was negatively impacting his life to the point where like, you know, he's we're getting forget lost, like, all multi times a day, car doors were being left open with a key in the door, like pots were being left on and the food was burning. Like, there's a, you have to look at severity of the impact and like frequency,

Scott Benner 1:28:26
definitely a spectrum of all this, all these things live on a spectrum. And, and obviously, if they're being I mean, if they're that significant, that they're impacting you, there's something you should probably try to do about it. I'm saying that in general, people are throwing themselves into, into into things constantly, like, like, oh, I have ADHD when you don't have it? Or you don't you mean, because you get distracted once in a while, and everyone gets distracted once? Well, that's not the same as somebody leaving their car door on, you know, five days a week leaving the burner on because they walk away and just don't think they come back. Those are obvious differences. But yeah, yes,

Hawley 1:29:04
I think I think those people don't understand that it's a it's an ignorance factor, that they just don't understand what that actually means. And they're misusing it, unfortunately. And it makes it you know,

Scott Benner 1:29:17
yeah, I'm cognitive of it, because a person brought it up to me one time that that said, Look, I have PTSD, like crippling, PTSD, and bothersome to me when I hear somebody say, because, you know, I don't know, they were around and some fireworks went off and they didn't realize it, and they're like, I have PTSD from the fireworks thing. Like, that's like not the same thing. And so, I don't know I'm always very interested in in this idea, and of just like social contagions to begin with, like things that get said so many times that people are like, Oh, that's happening to me. And then if they were assessed at Currently people would be like, No, that's not happening to you. Like, it's interesting how it just feels to me, not people who actually, I want to make sure Holly that I'm being clear, not people who actually are afflicted with these issues. But the rest of them. It sometimes it feels like people just really want to be special and belong to something, and will throw themselves in with things that are even not thought of as positive. Because I don't know, I don't know why Trust me, I have no idea. It's just an observation. So Well, I

Hawley 1:30:30
mean, desire for a sense of belonging is a pretty powerful thing. And I could totally see someone doing that. And it's just misguided. But I think when you like, so like, for me, it wasn't something that I was necessarily seeking or trying to do what happened because it was pushed in my face with my own kid, that I couldn't ignore it any longer. And, you know, so you're gonna, you're always gonna have all the assholes ruining it for everybody else. But we got to you know, that's I just think it's important to talk about and especially, because there are so many autoimmune overlays and gastrointestinal issues and these other things, that to have awareness about it. Not that it's everyone's going to have that there. But that, that, that it's important to have the awareness about it, because maybe it is something going on an impact in your life. And if you knew about it, it would improve, you know, your life today have that knowledge. I

Scott Benner 1:31:33
absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. Thank you. I just I appreciate you letting me play devil's advocate and ask a bigger question that I don't think really has an answer. I just think it's interesting to talk about.

Hawley 1:31:42
Yeah, well, I appreciate I really appreciate you doing the podcast. And and I know that you know that it's impactful and important, because we tell you that but it really is. It took me a while to listen, I did the Facebook group first. And that's very helpful. But the podcasts have actually been really nice, because it does give you a sense of less isolation and feeling like sometimes your body is your own worst enemy. And letting those people be heard and letting us hear them is just, it's I'm just really glad that you're doing it's

Scott Benner 1:32:18
my pleasure. It really is. Thank you. I appreciate you saying that very much. Yeah, I am. I really do. I think it's, I think it's something that people need. And I just didn't think it was there. And I seen other people try it. And like I said, I think that if it's not interesting, then and nobody listens to it, then it doesn't really exist. You don't I mean, you can't say like, I have a blog, if no one reads it. I mean, okay, it's there, but it's not actually doing the thing you want it to do. And I think there are a lot of entities right now who are saying, well, I'm offering this content, or I'm offering these conversations, and they're there to help people, but then a lot of them are not listable or interesting, or are discoverable. There's a lot of different reasons why people don't make it to content written, you know, video or audio, whatever. But it's nice that it's available. But if people aren't finding it and finding it, and then going, well, this is really interesting. And I'll tell someone else about this, then those things, just they die on the vine very quickly. And then nobody's nobody's been helped them.

Hawley 1:33:26
I also think it's it took me it took me a while to actually get around to utilizing the group and listening. Because first I was just in it. And then I actually, you know, so I think that that's, like you said there are different types of people that cycle through and some some always lurk, some are very active and then disappear, some etc, etc. I think being part of your group is something I hope on, you know, doing for a long time, because you do have everyone from experts to, you know, to just us right, and there's always new information and there's always even if even if it wasn't diabetes, it's nice because it is but the people sharing their stories is is interesting as well. So I've anyway, yeah, I

Scott Benner 1:34:20
agree. And I appreciate you saying thank you very much. Yeah,

Hawley 1:34:23
well, I'll let you go. I had to be at work at four so I gotta get ready for work I

Scott Benner 1:34:27
had to get out of here. I have to go buy dog food. My afternoon. It's not as interesting as yours. But I have like I said this is my third recording today. So I'm starting to hear my own voice and it's making me upset so

Hawley 1:34:40
you get a break the rest of the day off.

Scott Benner 1:34:44
I am taking the rest of the I'm not gonna think about this podcast again after I hit save after you and I are done talking so I'm definitely taking the night off. So hold on one second for me. Sure.

I want to thank Holly for coming on the show and sharing that terrific story with us. And I'd also like to thank Dexcom, makers of the Dexcom G six and G seven continuous glucose monitoring systems. dexcom.com forward slash juicebox. Let's not forget Omni pod. You want an omni pod dash, or an omni pod five Omni pod.com forward slash juice box when you use my links, you're supporting the podcast. So type it into a browser, Omni pod.com forward slash juice box. You can do it with your fingers. You could probably do it with your toes too, but probably easier with your fingers. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.

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