#913 The 5-4-3-2-1 Method

May 17, 2023Scott Benner

Erika Forsyth is an LMFT who has type 1 diabetes. She and Scott discuss the 5-4-3-2-1 grounding technique.

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to episode 913 of the Juicebox Podcast

Erica Forsythe is back and today she and I are going to speak about the 54321 grounding technique. I know you've never heard of it before, and you're like, sounds like counseling, Scott. But there's little more to it. While you're listening today, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. At the end of this, if you find yourself saying I loved Erica, I want more you could make an appointment with her at Erica foresight.com. Erica serves a number of states right now. Virtually virtually that's the word right. California, Oregon, Utah and Florida. And she's in California if you'd like to meet her in person, Erica forsyth.com. How would you like super comfy sheets soft and luxurious? And how would you like to pay 35% less for them than other people Bay. You can do that at cozy earth.com When you use the offer code juice box at checkout. That's right, the word juice box at checkout saves you 35% This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the company where my daughter gets her Dex comment on the pod supplies from and you can get that and more from us med us med.com forward slash juice box that's how you get started. You go to the link or you call them at 888-721-1514 us med let me just give you a taste a tease right. US med carries everything from insulin pumps and diabetes testing supplies. The latest CGM is from freestyle, and Dexcom. They also have Omnipod, five Omnipod dash control IQ. That's the tandem stuff. They have so much at us. med.com forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored today, by better help. Now if you can't get to Erica, but you still want to visit a therapist, check out my link better help.com forward slash juice box, you can save 10% On your first month of therapy when you go to that link. Hierarchy. Welcome back.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:36
Hey, thank you.

Scott Benner 2:37
I have you here today. Because well, let me tell you why. You've mentioned something to me before about coping grounding techniques for anxiety. I remember you saying it to me. And you just we glossed over very briefly. And very recently, a famous person who I've been following my whole life had what they described as a breakdown. And that they went to get help. And that one of the things at the therapy that that they sought out that was incredibly helpful is something called the 54321 coping technique. You call it that Do you have a word or name for it?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:23
I can't grounding technique.

Scott Benner 3:25
Okay. I want to just, I don't imagine I'm going to get to talk very much in this, but I'd like you to explain what it is. Talk about the steps of it, and then maybe give me some examples of how to use it in real life.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:39
Okay. So the grounding technique, there can be you can utilize all five of your senses. Sometimes I also teach my clients just the three to one technique, which I will explain. So grounding, what that actually means is bringing your mind and body and your senses to the present moment. This Do you want me to review it? What it is first? Or why? Why might be helpful?

Scott Benner 4:12
I think I think why? How do you get into that situation? Because what it makes me feel like is that you become a little disconnected from reality. Like maybe you get lost in a in a feeling or a thought or a problem, right? And it's almost like, in my head, it feels like it feels like the visually like if you've ever seen in a movie, somebody's getting sucked out of a dream. Like they're having a dream and then all of a sudden, they they suck them back to where they are. It's almost like to me it's that feeling of I'm away in this dream in this other place and I can't get back to me. Yes. Is that okay? Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:48
yes. So I would I would encourage someone to use this technique when they are feeling like people describe it as they're spiraling right there. mind their thoughts are racing, they feel like they can't control the experience they're having whether it's physiologically like your heart is racing, you're maybe even feeling like you're spinning a little bit. And your thoughts are just, you're perseverating on something, usually, it's about anticipatory fear, something that you're worried about in the future. But it can also be something that's happening currently. Or it could be something that happened in the past, and you feel like you cannot get yourself out of that moment and added the feeling. And it feels really scary and overwhelming, that often can also, this experience can be connected to having a panic attack, where you, which are very, it's very scary, and other people describe it as feeling like they might, it's as if they're dying, right, that their their heart is racing, they can't catch their breath. The the grounding technique can be difficult to utilize once you're experiencing a full panic attack. So this would be something that it can't be done, but it's really, really challenging. So this is kind of when you're in the space of your, you know that your mind is just going going going going and your heart is racing, and you can't feel like you can't make it stop. So what you want to do, so the grounding technique, again, you can call with your ball, five senses, or three is bringing yourself to the present moment. And sometimes even before, using the grounding technique, it's helpful to kind of check in with your breathing. So two different ways to do that one is just placing your hand on your heart. And you're just kind of getting in touch with your body and you might feel your heart racing, you might feel it slowing down, you're just kind of letting your body know that you're here like you were with your body. Because sometimes people describe when they're feeling panicky is that's the you know, the out of body experience. So you're connecting your hand to your heart and connecting with your body. Another way and this kind of goes with the 54321 technique is holding up one hand and you're tracing the other hand, you're tracing one finger on the other hand, up and down the finger, your fingers, it's might be hard to do without seeing it,

Scott Benner 7:15
I used to, I used to do this when I was a kid, I started my wrist and go around my thumb and then around my pointer finger and then just keep going around the edge of your hand like that.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:23
Thank you Yes, and then you're inhaling as your as your pointer finger is going up one finger, your thumb, and then you're exhaling, going down. I encourage people to try these breathing and you kind of go through up and down each finger inhaling as slow as you can, and then exhaling as your pointer finger goes up and down each digit to just kind of slow your mind and body down before you do the grounding exercise. There's really no right or wrong way to do it. But sometimes people will tell me, and I know it can be really challenging to be in this headspace of, of panic and say, I'm going to do my grounding technique. It's hard to jump into that. So the breathing exercises kind of helped slow everything down. Okay. Okay. So the 54321. The first one is, look, you're looking in your realm, wherever you are, you could be at the grocery store, and having this experience, you could be driving in your car, you could be at your office, you could be at your child's school, wherever you are, you're looking around in your physical space and identifying five things that you can see. Now what this experience does, is it It forces you to stop thinking about whatever you're thinking, because you're then having to look and identify, Okay, I see this book, I see the layout, I see the desk, and you kind of want to it takes time, but you kind of want it as slow as possible. You don't want to be like okay, see, boom, boom, boom, and blah, blah, blah, next. But again, that's it. So kind of look around and taking it okay, see five things. The next one, and oftentimes it gets confusing of like, which sense do I do? 54321? It doesn't really matter.

Scott Benner 9:10
Yeah, just an hour. I want to get back to what you said. It doesn't really matter what census but but in the, in the idea of like, five things that I see around me. It's, it's not like I see five pieces of paper and I'm done. But do I say it out loud? Do I see I see a pack of paper. I see a camera like, am I saying it out loud? Or am I saying it in my head? Or does that not matter?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:36
Um, I think it probably depends on your comfort level. If you're alone, it could be helpful to probably say it out loud and then define it like okay, I see the tissue box and it's rectangle and there's orange and yellow and blue print on it. You could say it out loud if you're in a public place and you prefer not to it's okay. Okay, okay. Yeah. But yeah, try as I said, you know, going doubt around the objects slowly identifying them if you can, describing them out loud or in your head, right? So, just you're just slow. You're bringing your mind and body and now first, your vision to what's in front of you. Okay, the next one is for things you can touch. And that's not just like, you know, again, I see my smooth laptop, you're gonna feel it. And you're gonna think to yourself, Okay, this is kind of rough. I can feel my fingertips going back and forth over it. And then the next thing, okay, oh, this is really smooth. The mousepad is smooth, and it's pink and purple, you know, whatever. The next one, three things you can hear. This is quieting, you know, you're you're using all of your senses to quiet your mind and quiet your body. And so you're listening. And this may take some time. It could be you hear your heartbeat. It could be I can hear myself

Scott Benner 10:59
breathing. I can hear. You can hear silence even if you get quiet enough like that. You can hear the room, which is silence. I don't know if that makes sense to people. I wear a lot of headphones. So I think of it that way. But I can hear nothing. If that makes sense. Yes, right. Stillness. Yeah. Okay. All right. So like that five things that I see. I see my I see my microphone. It's on a stand. It's got a long cable on it, like take a minute to describe it. If I already decided to touch that microphone. It's metal on one side and cold and smooth. On the other side. There's a foam cover the foam covers rough and it's porous and to actually touch while I'm thinking three things. Three things that I can hear is an idea of how to get quiet and then really listen. So you're just calming yourself down really right you're grounding yourself. I mean I know that's what we're talking about. But that's it's really fascinating before we get to the next thing where does this come from? Like where did this idea originate?

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Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:18
Do you know of grounding technique I imagine it's connected to you know an Eastern philosophy of you know mindfulness being present in the moment I couldn't tell you exactly who created it or where it originated but I imagine it's you know getting to that place of the practicing the art of mindfulness stillness being present with your body. Have you discovered who created it

Scott Benner 14:45
here the National Institute of Health says was first developed by Lowen one one the Madonna of psychotherapist apparently only get one name 1958 between 1958 1979 Oh, one was one of the first body psycho therapists. Okay.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:04
Okay, well, thank you. We give him give low end credit him or her? Yes, thank you.

Scott Benner 15:11
I'm usually the one that just calls. Okay? Okay, so number two, okay.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:20
So then two things you can smell. And again, you know, taking your time and this is, it could be your own, you know, something that's in the air, your body, your perfume, your, you know, whatever, whatever is feeling that maybe you don't even have candles or if you if you don't have anything that you can smell, you could light a candle at you know, do if you have the oils, something if

Scott Benner 15:48
it just shows your shirt, right? You probably smell your own hair like anything.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:52
Yes, yes. Anything. And then one thing you can taste, which is this is tricky. And this is why I go over the three to one. You know, sometimes people get caught up and like, well, what if I don't have like a strawberry in front of me, but it could be also just tasting and being mindful of what is the flavor in your mouth. It could be leftover breakfast flavor, it could be your coffee, you know, that you've had? It doesn't have to be something that you are actually tasting in the moment. But just kind of going back to being mindful. Like what did I have this morning might be your toothpaste, right or your mouthwash that you're tasting in your mouth?

Scott Benner 16:27
I don't need to lick my desk when I get up. That's correct. Right. Right. Right. And by the way, how proud is everyone of me that I didn't say that you could smell what the rock is cooking. Because that did pop into my head. I've never watched wrestling in my life, and it still came to me. So so the taste thing am I actually looking, but my first thought is to put something in my mouth and taste it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 16:54
If that's if you had happened to have something, or maybe you have your coffee or your tea, or you have food in front of you or a snack, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that it can be something like there's a residual taste in your mouth typically,

Scott Benner 17:07
how long? Do you think the 54321 process takes a person? If they go through it mindfully this or not? Uh, this?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:17
That's a tough? Yeah, I don't I think it can be, it probably depends on as you as you practice, it will probably take longer over time. I mean, you could probably do it in as quick as like, a minute or two. But I don't know if that that might not be as effective. So maybe if you could stretch it out even over five minutes, 10 minutes, I think would be a challenge, but could be done.

Scott Benner 17:40
Okay. So be seated standing doesn't matter. Do you think?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:45
So these are good questions. I think a lot of times people associate grounding with you know, going outside barefoot and grounding your feet on the grass on the ground and really connecting your body to the earth. You can do that in that process. But I also really want to encourage people that you don't have to be in a special position or environment or place to practice this. So whatever I would say whatever makes you feel most comfortable and focused on the exercise, but if it just means you're at you're sitting in your car at the stoplight, you can do it quickly. Right. And oftentimes, the clients will get it's confusing to think, okay, 54321 What sense am I supposed to say am I supposed to touch five things, I supposed to see three things. And so sometimes it just to remember, three to one, which is if you if you maybe if you're at a stoplight, and you only have a few minutes, a minute, three things that you can see two things, two things that you can touch. And one thing that you can hear that eliminates the smell and that tastes but sometimes that isn't as easy to do. And again, really, I don't find maybe in the literature, it is important to do it in that order. But I think really the the emphasis is grounding yourself to the present moment and interrupting the Thought Cycle and then calming your body physiologically as well through the process.

Scott Benner 19:16
So the first time I heard anything about this was from you. When I was explaining leaving my son for the first time in Atlanta, and that it occurred to me that I should call my brother and talk to somebody and you said, Oh, that you are grounding yourself. And I was like, Oh, I didn't know I was doing that. But it does make sense like, and then it's distracting. The conversation is distracting then even though like we talked about what was happening, even saying it out loud makes you realize like, oh, it's not as bad as I thought it was when it was when it started to happen. I don't if that makes sense or not like almost talking it out loud is helpful.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:57
Yes, and I think you were also do doing that while you were driving. So you had to be you had to be kind of mindful in the moment as well of driving, bringing you were in the present moment. And grounding yourself can look like yes, you were you were talking to him and talk me through what happened. And then also thinking about what was next.

Scott Benner 20:23
Yeah. I have to say I also find the work of a guy named John Sarno around back pain to be really valuable. And one of the things that I've always taken away from his books that I read years ago the that the idea of that you can tell yourself like, I'm not injured, like yeah, my back hurts, but I'm not injured. I don't have a physical injury didn't fall. I wasn't hit by a car like something's not structurally wrong with me. Yes, I'm feeling pain right now. But I'm not hurt. I'm okay. My back's okay. Like, I used to tell myself that, and it was actually incredibly valuable. So it mean, to the point where I would say that, that the stress could kind of exasperate the, the pain, like so you have the pain, and then you get stiff? And then you start worrying, like, am I going to be able to go up for work tomorrow, and like, you sort of spiral, I guess, same thing we're talking about. And then I would just tell myself, and I would say it out loud, if I, if I had the opportunity to I'm not hurt, my back is not injured. This is okay. And it would actually help. So,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:31
yes, I mean, that's really effective, you know, with people with chronic pain, right to there's the pain that you experience. And then there's the thought process that goes alongside it that can contribute to even more pain, emotionally, or sometimes even physically. And that's, that's a great exercise of there is the pain, you're not like ignoring it, diminishing it. But the thought process as a result of that you're separating the two, you're not connecting them.

Scott Benner 22:01
Is there a world where I would ground? prophylactically? I'm sorry? Is that a word people know? It I'm sorry. Just for context, it means like something I would do ahead of time so that the thing never happens, like, can I ground myself before I become, like, upset.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:20
So like, free, like a pretty meditation,

Scott Benner 22:24
right to do something. We're just talking about meditating at

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:27
that point. So front to front load. I mean, I think anything you do that you practice, even when it's not in the crisis moment, it's going to be easier to implement in that crisis moment, or in those stages of panic. So if your mind and body is accustomed to grounding yourself, which could look like meditation, which could look like various, you know, different practices. If you know how to do that, instinctively, it'll just be easier to do. And, you know, post, right, right, when the moment when you feel like you really need it. Yeah. When is that beneficial? i Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Benner 23:10
I guess anything that works for you is beneficial, but like, it just occurred to me like, I wonder if it like is becoming disconnected? A thing that happens, like at the snap of a finger? Or is it something that maybe happens throughout the day? And you don't recognize it until you know, you're you've slipped over the slope at that point?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:29
That's a That's a great question. I think part of the initial process that when you're becoming a is having that awareness that you are cycling, or spiraling, or per separating, and you're experiencing the anxious symptoms, because oftentimes, you might not even realize you're doing it until you are at that place of having the panic attack or feeling like you cannot function, whether it's momentarily or seasonally. And so, one of the first steps, you know, is to increase that self awareness of like, Oh, I'm doing that thing where I'm, I keep saying I'm using what if, you know, worst case scenario thinking? This is kind of going back to some of the you know, that the cognitive distortions or the lies or the worst case scenario thinking, becoming aware that you're doing that is is really the first step, and then being kind to yourself in that moment. You say, Oh, gosh, I'm doing I'm doing that thing again. Gosh, this is because I'm feeling really nervous about this upcoming event, right? I'm feeling really nervous about letting my child go to school. Okay, I am. So you're being kind of kind to yourself, being aware and being kind to yourself, helps kind of lead you to the end to the next step of whether it's the you know, the deep breathing exercises are the grounding technique.

Scott Benner 24:51
And do you like from your perspective, obviously, this is something I should I should be asking you. This is something you use with people who see you.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:58
Yes, yeah, yeah. So we've talked about this all the time

Scott Benner 25:01
do people report back with with success? Normally?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:06
Yes. And I think it can be successful. But the common issue is that it does take practice, right? So it, it's hard to go from the state of panic to Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm feeling panicky, I'm gonna go do my grounding technique. It's really hard, right? And so it does take that practice. And that's why we kind of we break it down into what are the thoughts that you're thinking? What are Are there different distortions that you're believing, being kind to yourself in that moment, replacing those with truths, all the while, integrating the coping skill. So it's hard to go from the A to Z, without some of the steps in between. And then it just, it takes practice.

Scott Benner 25:52
I'm looking around online while you're talking. And because it just keeps striking me that anybody who knows about like electrical work, right, you have to ground the socket, you have to like, and you grounded, you're grounded into the earth. So that if there's not an electrician, but so if there's a surge, instead of zapping you, it were the house, it literally goes down, there's a metal spike somewhere outside of your house, it's driven in the ground and your whole electrical system is is attached to it so that, you know it can ground we're not talking about anything different, really, we need to help people to go outside, walk barefoot lie on the ground. I even see here submerse yourself in water. And then there's equipment to ground yourself with, which I would have no idea about. But my son brought this up to me like last year, he's like, you know, you can get like, like a mat to sleep on that literally is, is grounded the outdoors. And I was like, why would that be? And I can't wrap my head around it. But maybe there's something to it. You know?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 26:53
That is such a great analogy. Yes. Thank you. That is good.

Scott Benner 26:57
I like it when you thank me. It makes me feel it makes me feel evolved. Like it makes me feel like oh, Erica Foster, thank me, I must have been really thoughtful just then.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:10
Well, it was good. That was a good,

Scott Benner 27:12
thank you. I appreciate it also makes me feel like you're way healthier than I am when you do that. Always like she's, she's either so good at this or just way more together than I am. By the way, I want people to know when they hear this first run. This is coming out during I think it's National Mental Health Awareness month in May. It is it is I cannot take credit for doing this on purpose. That is not why this happened. So I saw something in my social media a few weeks ago. And I mean, for clarity. I mean, he's very public about I guess I'd be happy to say it. The movie director Kevin Smith had a mental health crisis. And he put out a 30 minute video talking about what he did for himself. And I watched it. And he was talking about this grounding technique, which made me think oh, wow, Erica brought this up to me. And, and I thought wouldn't that be nice to walk through it to? To share it with other people? So that's how we got here? Um,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:15
yes. I think one of the beautiful things about it is that it can be done without anybody knowing like a lot of my a lot of students that I work with you maybe have test taking anxiety or, and even even caregivers as well. You can do it without anybody knowing it doesn't have to be this big. You know? Yeah, exercise that is embarrassing, or causes a lot of, you know, public or personal distress in public. And so you can do it. No one even knows you're doing it. And that's the beautiful thing, kind of

Scott Benner 28:49
like opening up your phone to look at your CGM. Like that's right, right. Just Oh, I'm doing your thing. No one knows but me. And that's yeah, that is really wonderful. So practicing it so so not not indifferent, indifferent, not unlike almost anything else in life. Like, don't just reach for this information in the moment where you're actually having a panic attack. For example, like do it today. Do it now just practice so you, you know the steps and maybe it will maybe you can even like because I mean, I'm doing it while you're talking. You can feel like that. I guess centering is the way to go or balance or calm even like it made me realize that when I because I sit in like 1000 different positions while we're talking like I lay back like my microphone moves around really easily. Sometimes I'll sit back I'll sit up, I'll sit forward. But I found myself sitting up straight and and planting my feet on the ground. And I'll tell you, I never considered it before but there's an alleviation of something. When I'm when my body knows I'm in a stable position. I've just I've done it like four times while you're talking. It's happened every time I can pointing exactly what it is. But I feel stable in this position with my feet planted firmly. It's very interesting.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:06
That is, that is a great point. Thank you for reminding me that, yes, it could be helpful. If you're able, if you are seated to have your feet on the ground, kind of everything at right angles, if you can buy your knees, and then your your hips, your shoulders above your hips, because that is your kind of in alignment. And that can help you focus if your bodies in that posture, it can also you're bringing mindfulness to your body through the guidance. The grounding technique. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. But that is another helpful tip.

Scott Benner 30:43
An arc is the person who slept through high school, I feel weird saying this out loud. But I feel like what I'm what I'm experiencing. I'm just trying to tell you, I didn't do well in science. But I feel like what I'm experiencing is my body is not making a bunch of micro adjustments to keep me balanced. And so it's almost like my body's able to relax. Because I'm in this position. It feels like the it feels like the chair has me chairs under me, it has me it's behind me the way my weight is there. And even when I think to shift, I can't because my feet are firm. But if you stand up, I don't know if we think about this a lot. But you're constantly. Like if you've ever watched like a robot try to balance like when they're teaching robots to walk, and you can. Okay, so you can hear well, you can hear the servos in the legs and the articulations where it's constantly like it's constantly balancing itself, like forever balancing itself. And I just realized that when I sit up and I put my feet on the floor like this, my body doesn't feel like it's, it's working to hold me up. And it's relaxing. So anyway, I mean, it's grounded, because my feet are on the ground. But I think more I think more like it's like an alleviation of like, processes that you don't know are happening constantly. So one less thing your body's doing. It's kind of how it feels. But again, slept right through psychology as a senior. So I did I did a final but did not did not listen, Have I ever told you that story? No, congratulations. Oh, thank you, my, my senior year, we had a half year psychology class. And it came right after lunch. I was always very sleepy during this class. So I would I would sleep through the class every time. The guy was boring. And it's not that I didn't like the topic. I thought the topic was great, but he just didn't deliver it well. Anyway, halfway through the year, it's time to make the final because only half your class. We come in, he hands out the final. I fall asleep. Like let it take I just I looked at the finals. Like I put my head down like went to sleep. My friend woke me up. And he goes, I remember his words. He looked at me incredulously and said Don't you think you should at least take the final I thought as a valid point. And I sat up and slapped myself in the face a little bit and took the test. The next day we came in for the last day of class. This the dejected man at the front of the of the classroom holding the finals graded in his hands. He was so like, it'd be used distraught. And later I realized he was distraught because I think he thought his existence was a waste of time and unnecessary because I got the best grade on the final. Oh, he was so pissed. And he goes, How is this possible? And I said I probably learned while I'm sleeping. Anyway, I found it. I love psychology. I just didn't like the way he spoke about it. But I'm fascinated by it. Otherwise, I appreciate you doing this. Is there anything we're leaving out? Or any?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:53
Yeah, yes. I think I was just thinking back when you asked you know how to clients report is as effective. One thing that can be challenging is it's easier if you're hearing someone tell you to lead you through the steps. And obviously it can be done independently. And so if you're finding when you're wanting to try this or practice this, either writing it down on a sticky note, you know, 54321 with the different senses. You could also record I'm sure I know, there are probably you know on various apps or even you could YouTube, Google YouTube, you know someone walking you through this. You could record yourself which can be really powerful. Walking yourself through the steps. So if you're finding that it's either challenging or doesn't feel as effective if you're working through the steps internally by yourself if you need to hear someone walk you through that. That's just another I just wanted to suggest that as another tip. Yeah.

Scott Benner 34:56
I don't know firsthand, but I would also bring it Up to the I've heard so many people talk favorably about Transcendental Meditation. And TM is I think they offer like a tiered system to pay for, like to learn how to do it. And I think it's pretty reasonable. If that's ever something that I'm that you are interested in if they charge you by your household income. So if you want to learn how to do TM, I were find another form of meditation that just seems like such a good idea, honestly, like just the idea of sitting quietly. In general. Yes, yes. There's so much going on. Erica, like, I mean, there's a moment today, when I mean, we work from home, you know, my wife's downstairs, she's working, she hasn't been feeling well. You know, Arden's two weeks from coming home from school, we're traveling soon to pick her up. And my son still away, he's by himself, I tried to work, I had an advertiser, like, got a little funky, and I had to work it out. And like, you know, like, there's everything going on, and I come downstairs, and my wife starts telling me something about an experience she had at work today that was really genuinely interested in her as she's talking, the dog has to go outside. And now I'm like, hold on, hold on, wait, I'm pausing her and I let the dog out. And then I get outside and my neighbor's waving to me. He's got a question about something. And then I'm talking to him. And before I know what, it's 20 minutes later, and I'm back inside. And I'm like, Kelly, what were you saying? She didn't even remember, she was talking to me at this point. And all I could think was, there's too much happening. Like, there's just there's too much happening. And I gotta go back upstairs. And I have to edit three of these podcasts today. And I have four phone calls. And I have to set up this thing. And Eric and I are going to record and, and I can understand when people just like, like spiral out like, it's, it's like my life's going well. And it's still a lot, and I don't know what you're supposed to do when things aren't going well. And all these things are still happening. And these are just little things like, these are just momentary things that I find myself bumping into, while I'm going through my day, there are other big ideas going on here. There's, I have a whiteboard next to me is like 50 things written on it that I have to do, and it's already time to pay like my taxes again, and like, you know, like, it's just like, it's, it's a lot, you know, and I don't know, it just it feels like it would be valuable to have a couple of moments of quiet. And whether you're, you know, having an issue or just trying to stay present, I guess is the right word. It's so funny when you say it. When you say present, grounded, when you say grace, when you say things like that. I think these are so like obvious ideas. Like, I don't know why we don't talk about the more, you know,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:53
they're in there. So they're hard to do for ourselves and internally, like we can offer grace to our children, we can help them oftentimes, you know, we can help them calm down. We can help lead them to say no, it's okay. You can move from school and you're in your child's you know, running around, they've all this homework and their blood sugar's high. And it's, it's easier to maybe help someone externally. Yeah, to kind of pause and take one thing at a time as opposed to in our own body and mind. And so we I, we often talk about, you know, trying to think, how am I going to ground How am I going to calm myself the way I would my child, or my best friend or my partner,

Scott Benner 38:37
I'm going to try this. And because this may sound may sound opposite of what I just said, but I'm having a struggle, like a personal struggle right now. And that is, I'm bored. I don't have enough to do. Like, I have too much to do. But my kids aren't here. Like, I I'm not, I'm, I am not good when I'm not helping people. Like it feels very hot. My Existence feels hollow right now. Like, I feel like I'm getting up and doing the thing I'm supposed to do. And, um, you know, working on losing weight, which is going well and, you know, like thank you. And, and and so everything's moving the way I want it to the podcast is very popular, it's doing terrific. I can't, you know, all that. So there's nothing going wrong wrong. And yet, I keep thinking I'm bored. And when I really stopped and thought about it, like I'm not involved with the kids as much, and I didn't realize how much I would miss that and how much of my I mean, I knew how much of my life it was. But I didn't understand that there'd be a vacuum like that like and there's a vacuum I did not expect and anyway, I just I need to do something because I don't know like i right Now I feel like I'm floating through my life at the moment, if that makes sense. So, anyway,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:05
maybe a bit a bit untethered from where you found your, your purpose. Yeah, and you derived a lot of value and purpose from that. And so with them gone, maybe there's a little bit of untethering. And that can maybe lead to various amount, you know, think thoughts and feelings, and which are all valid and true. So you get to feel that and in that process, maybe going back to the, you know, grounding yourself and letting yourself feel those feelings of boredom and maybe sadness or loss, I don't know. But that's what grounding can do is, like, also create space for the feelings that might be suppressed, because you're going going, going from one thing to the next, you're getting all your checks off the whiteboard, and then the feeling that is there. Once you're grounded and present, it allows for it to come out.

Scott Benner 40:56
I don't know if this sounds silly, but I woke up the other day, and I had a text from Arden. And she just wanted this special soap, like a bar of soap. And I like ordered that soap and had it shipped to her and sent her the tracking information isn't the best 20 minutes of my week. And I just was so silly. Like I was like, Oh, am I not having conscious thoughts? Like, oh, I'm valuable again. Like it's not like that. It's that I think I actually enjoyed this. Like, like, like, hearing their thoughts and their their things that are going right and things that are going wrong and like having conversation back and forth about it all that stuff is like it's just gone now. But you know, and and then I'm also thinking they don't have somebody to talk about it with. Like my son especially he's living in a city by himself right now. And I feel very badly about that. Like I want him to finish this part and go somewhere where there's more people and I don't know I just anyway, I'm going to try this is my point.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:01
Yeah, good dad.

Scott Benner 42:04
Sets sappy stuff about myself. Anyway All right, one day Erica. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna go over you One day One day find out what makes you tick sit these conversations on your on your throne of good thoughts and no. I want to hear it all figured out. I wonder what a mess you are one day I can't be the only one telling stories about sitting around feeling hollow

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:43
What do I appreciate the vulnerability

Scott Benner 42:45
Thank you very much I appreciate you doing this

Hey, how terrific is Erica find her at Erica forsyth.com Also, while you're looking for things us med.com forward slash juice box for call 888-721-1514 Get your free benefits check and get started with us med. Of course, better help.com forward slash juice box. That's the link where you save 10% off your first month of therapy with better health. Let me throw one more in here for you. 35% off cozy earth.com your entire purchase by using juice box at checkout and what the hell athletic greens.com forward slash juice box get five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D with your first order. Will you use my link thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you can't wait that long, head over to the private Facebook group Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes become a member join the 40,000 other members and talk about diabetes with them doesn't matter if you have type one type two type, whatever, Lada you know what I mean?