#296 Defying Gravity

Flight is Magical and Oren Liebermann loves it

Oren Liebermann is an American journalist who works as the Jerusalem correspondent for CNN. He's also a pilot, a T1 and an author. Read his book!

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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello, everyone, welcome to Episode 296 of the Juicebox Podcast. This episode of the show is sponsored by Dexcom Omni pod and dancing for diabetes. Please go to my Omni pod.com forward slash juice box to find out how to get a demonstration pod sent directly to you. Or go to dexcom.com forward slash juice box to find out all you need to know about the Dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. And I'm going to throw you a curveball here to find out about dancing for diabetes go to touched by type one.org touched by type one.org. I have a treat for you today. Oren Lieberman is the CNN CORRESPONDENT in Jerusalem. He is a adult who has type one diabetes. And he's a pilot. So obviously, when I was looking for some clarification on the new FAA rules about flying with Type One Diabetes, I thought, let me get on the show and find out what he knows about it. Plus, a little background and some chitter chatter. You'll see it's a regular episode, where we actually touch on a topic that I decided to touch on before we got to it. It's kind of crazy for me, I don't normally start with the topic and actually get to it. Having said all of that, I do believe it took me about a half an hour to get to the topic about flight but I found what Oren was talking about to be incredibly interesting. So what are we in a rush? You got somewhere to be okay, I feel is getting confrontational even though I'm here by myself. So let me just say this nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always, please consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. Real quick before the show starts. huge shout out to the people of Oklahoma. Thank you for having me out. This past weekend. I had a terrific time getting to know all of you. And I hope you enjoyed the bowl with insulin talk that I gave.

Oren Lieberman 2:12
My name is Oren Lieberman. I'm lucky enough to be cnn Jerusalem correspondent. I also have type one diabetes. I was diagnosed about five and a half years ago, on Valentine's Day 2014. And what would be relevant to this podcast, I'm also lucky enough to be a private pilot. In my spare time, my dad was an aerospace engineer. So I grew up around airplanes. I wanted to be a pilot my whole life. And although I'm not a commercial pilot, my dad had the crazy idea of building a home build airplanes. So I'm lucky enough when I'm home in the US to fly that airplane. Right. So

Scott Benner 2:43
first of all, I'll decide what's pertinent to the

Unknown Speaker 2:45
podcast. You know,

Scott Benner 2:48
you You have no idea how many crazy directions we might end up going. Tell me something that you said five years ago, you were diagnosed, how old were you?

Oren Lieberman 2:56
I was 31. In fact, I was diagnosed my wife and I had quit our jobs and we were backpacking around the world. I was diagnosed in Nepal, of all places in Pokhara a city that does not, shall we say have the most advanced health care on the planet. So I was diagnosed, I lost a tremendous amount of weight and all the symptoms at this point we all know so well. And for about two months at kind of sort of sputtered along feeling terrible and awful and miserable and weak. Eventually, and we were volunteering there, we were teaching English at a monastery, actually, my wife and I, they canceled classes for a day I stepped on a scale and decided okay, maybe it's time to go to the doctor having just dropped 40 pounds in about two months. He the doctor initially said, nothing's wrong, you have a little infection, just, you know, eat more chicken and have some fruit juice. Following that, three days later, I went back and said something's very wrong. And that's how I was diagnosed. And then I spent a week in two different Nepali hospitals, which is something I wouldn't wish on anybody. I'm just gonna say that you just, you just said a lot. So

Scott Benner 4:00
are you nine feet tall? How did 40 pounds look coming off of you?

Oren Lieberman 4:04
So I was. I mean, by the end it was bad skin was hanging off of me. I was so dehydrated that that might be my wife's arms were were thicker than mine. They were stronger than mine. And within the first I think 24 to 48 hours at the hospital. I put on basically 15 pounds of just waterway. Yeah. Just on an IV was a little overweight. Yeah, but did I have 40 pounds to lose? Heck no. And by the time I went to the hospital, I was in pretty bad shape. Right?

Scott Benner 4:33
Is it? How scary is it being out of the country when you're that sick?

Oren Lieberman 4:39
It's horrifying. Yeah. At that point, I felt so awful. Near the end, it was almost a relief to get a diagnosis. And frankly, when when you're feeling that bad, there are a whole lot of things swirling through your mind. And I look I certainly thought am I about to be diagnosed with cancer here? Oh, yeah. So diabetes wasn't you know, I grew up with a friend who's at type one diabetes. And he was actually my second email. My first was to my family. My second was to him. And he's one of those guys, that's just super positive. And from the beginning, he put me on the right track. So although it certainly wasn't a fun experience being diagnosed in Nepal, he sent me sort of on the right track with the right attitude. The first hospital was rough. We were there for four nights, and all the all the medications, all the food, and the hospital bill came to about 100. And I think it was $198 or $189, or something like that. And it was worth about that much for four nights. The second hospital was a legitimate Western clinic. And that's, that's the place that got me well enough to fly home. And then the process of figuring out what the heck this is and how to live with it.

Scott Benner 5:43
So how long have you been the CNN CORRESPONDENT, drizzle?

Oren Lieberman 5:49
February 2015. So I'm nearing my five year mark.

Scott Benner 5:52
Okay. So did all of this sort of coalesce together like your diagnosis and you taking this job? And we're like, I guess maybe let me step back for a second. What were you doing prior to saying, I'm not going to work anymore, and I'm going to go backpacking with my wife.

Oren Lieberman 6:06
So I was in local TV news. I was actually a local TV news reporter in Philly at CBS three. Okay. So we quit in September 2013. At that point, we'd been married for a year, my wife was a teacher. And we backpack I really thought I was out of journalism. I was diagnosed halfway through the trip, we then got back on the road and finished the trip last four or five months, which was an incredibly important decision for me. And then I was doing a little freelance video work for four months. And suddenly cnn came calling and said, Do you want to interview for Jerusalem or Beijing? And having just been to both Jerusalem and Beijing? I said, heck, yeah. And the conversation very quickly led towards Jerusalem, and I began almost exactly a year after my diagnosis. Wow,

Scott Benner 6:47
what was it like backpacking with a new diagnosis?

Oren Lieberman 6:50
Very difficult. We talked to my doctor, we talked to my friend who has diabetes. One of the biggest challenges is how do you keep insulin cool. And we were heading to Southeast Asia where the temperature was in the high 90s every day. Okay. So I had to suddenly I had to carry around my insulin pens, Lantus and humalog. And I can't carry around a cool pack. And we need to make sure that hotels and hostels we were staying in had refrigerators to keep insulin cool. Logistically, it was a nightmare. It was incredibly difficult at times. But it was a it was totally worth it. I've often said it might not be the smartest decision I ever made to get back on the road. It was probably one of the dumber decisions in hindsight. But it was very important because I decided at that point, I wasn't ever going to say no because of diabetes. And that the rest of the trip was incredible. That's an excellent even for, you know, the challenges of managing blood sugars. Yeah,

Scott Benner 7:40
nice. It's just it's a wonderful story. Because, you know, so many people allow the tiniest thing to you know, knock them off track it when diabetes comes up. They're like, Oh, I don't you know, won't go in on plane. I mean, listen, I'm not gonna lie to you. There were times where I didn't feel like driving 20 minutes away from my house when my daughter was first diagnosed.

Oren Lieberman 7:57
You just I understand.

Scott Benner 7:58
Yeah, you're like, that's too far. Was it perseverance and stubbornness or a little bit of ignorance mixed enough of a mix of both? Or were you just really that brave what was happening and that's in your head? For two years, I've been telling you go to dancing for diabetes.com you know, I jumped on I'm like good at dancing number four, you know what I'm talking about. But beginning right now, I want you to go to touched by type one, please trust me. There'll be a reason why and then I will share that. Please trust me that there is a reason why and that one day soon, I will share that reason with you. But for now touched by type one.org the mix of both or were you just really that brave what was happening and that's in your head?

Oren Lieberman 8:44
Oh, no, I think I think that was a very good description, perseverance, stubbornness, ignorance stupidity determination. Part of it was an even little things factored in my wife was a teacher so she couldn't she couldn't just go back halfway through the school year and start teaching so we figured what the heck are even our doctor said, Look, you got the basics down, your blood sugar's low, eat your your blood sugar's high, take insulin, figuring out how it works for you is something something you're gonna have to do regardless whether you're at home or on the road. So when he said that, it's like, Alright, well, I'm just gonna go figure this out on the road.

Scott Benner 9:16
Did you have any real like health issues during that time? Did you have any scary lows or highs, you couldn't break stuff like that?

Oren Lieberman 9:23
A couple lows, not too many highs because I was very strict about what I was eating. In fact, the worst sort of health care wasn't I don't think related to diabetes. We were in Laos. And because it's a malaria zone, we cycled on to an anti malarial medication. And it wiped me out to the point where I couldn't hold food down for a couple days. To me, that was quite scary. I couldn't get my blood sugar up because I couldn't I couldn't hold food down. So that was two days of basically sitting in a hotel room waiting to figure out what was going on. And in the end, we didn't have any official diagnosis, but I think it was just, you know, going onto an antibiotic as an anti malarial, just mess with my system. But that was the, you know, the worst health scare we had. And in hindsight, that wasn't all that bad dealing with it.

Scott Benner 10:05
So when I hear that you guys as adults, sort of like, we're like, hey, well quit our jobs and go do this thing. You seem like free spirited people. So this next question probably doesn't need to get asked, but was your diagnosis hard on your marriage?

Oren Lieberman 10:18
No, not at all. My wife very supportive of me from the very beginning, and because because we were both traveling, we didn't have jobs. She was with me in the hospital. 24 seven. So when I started trying to figure out my dosage, I figured out with her, and she'd look at it and say, Look, I think this is two or three units or four units. And she knew my diabetes just as well as I did. And she still does. Yeah. So that it brings us closer together. Yeah, certainly, in a way, it was one more challenge we had to overcome. But she's been great about it from the very beginning. That's excellent.

Scott Benner 10:47
Now, I mean, I didn't expect any different from your sort of how you laid out the beginning. But it's still it could be, you know, it could be shocking to someone in a way that maybe throws them off course, a little bit. So I just I wasn't sure. Also, I wasn't sure if he would admit to it out loud. If she was like running around going, Oh, my God, what I do? This guy, there are other guys.

Oren Lieberman 11:08
None of that. None of that.

Scott Benner 11:11
So okay, so there's the diabetes, help you make the decision about cnn? Or was that just such a good opportunity that you thought like, I guess my question is, are you at a local CBS thinking this isn't going where I want it to go? and CNN is where you wanted it to go? So it It felt like you just kind of you found the back on the path you were looking for? Or was it like, what makes you go out of something and go right back into it? Again, I guess is the question.

Oren Lieberman 11:37
The offer essentially was just too good and too interesting. And having just traveled it was it was too much of a draw to get back on the road. In a sense. I really thought I'd left journalism for Goodwin when I left my job at CVS in Philly. And then cnn came calling and I figured what the heck, let's see where this leads. And it's been incredible. You know, I live in Jerusalem, my family's here, my kids were born here. But with CNN, I've reported in, let me think about this Serbia, Russia, Poland, France, Jordan, England. And and so having having, having the love for travel so much. And the opportunity to keep doing that while Hey, also doing it as a living was absolutely incredible. And I was never gonna pass it up.

Scott Benner 12:20
Does this job give you the feeling? Like are you? Do you? Do you understand what's happening in the world in a different way than I do? Like, do you have to keep track of it? I guess my question is there's is as a reporter, are you really are you steeped in it? Like you're not just saying the words on a page, right? Like your, your, your

Unknown Speaker 12:40
God, I hope not.

Scott Benner 12:42
Like, like, I don't I don't get this feeling from you. I'm just trying to get you to explain it to somebody else. Like you're not a talking head, you're not reading a script, you're there understanding around stuff and reporting back on it.

Oren Lieberman 12:53
Yeah, so my job, my full time job is to be here in Jerusalem and fully understand the story and keep track of it. Even if I'm not giving you every little update on our website and on air, I have to know what's going on. So that when I am called, and when it is time to get on air, I know fluidly, what I'm talking about and can can analyze it and discuss how we got here, where we're going from here. The more difficult is, for example, when I go to Moscow, and I've been there about six or seven times now. Because although I keep track of that, to some extent, I don't follow it on a day to day basis. So that's getting in there catching up, you know, was it what is it I've missed in the last six months. And then doing that and kind of just keeping an eye on what's going on all over the place in case I get sent in. Certainly, whenever you're sent to a story that is not your full time story, there is a process of catching up as quickly as possible. And then we always have teams on the ground who are there to help you out and sort of answer questions and fill in the blanks of the knowledge that we don't have because we don't follow it day to day on different stories. Are there things happening all over the world that intersect with us in ways we don't even understand?

Yeah, oh, definitely.

You know, some of it's fascinating to talk about some of it gets very minute and and very tiny, but it affects policy all over the world. And and the interplay is fascinating to see. And just sort of try to follow it. Does that mean I'm great at it? I'm not sure about that. But you know, I enjoy my job. And I enjoy doing that and trying to follow how policy here affects policy there and, and decisions are all tied together.

Scott Benner 14:22
But what about you and your past made you feel like this was something that was just too good to pass up? Is it Do you have a love for for global politics or history? Or are you I'm dying to know, I just I'm sorry, we'll get to diabetes at some point. But I just I really want to understand

Oren Lieberman 14:38
Oh, good. Yeah, of course. No, like, I've never had a good answer to this question and certainly not the answer that people kind of expected me to have. I think when I was in college, and I went to University of Virginia, I decided on the spot watching basketball that I was going to do the radio play by play for the Sacramento Kings. Very specific except I had no idea how to do that. So I went back to back to New Jersey got a job. But I got an internship at an FM radio station. And one of the DJs sat me down and said, What are you doing here? So I told him, I want to do radio sports. And he said, Look, go back to school, call up the local am station and beg to get on air, just do it. So I did it. And then I went to grad school at Syracuse to get better at Radio sports. And one of my professors sat me down. And he said, Look, you don't want to work in radio, you don't know anything about sports, you're going to do TV news. So I said, Okay, not knowing any better. And that's how I got the TV news. And then I've always found it fun, right? It's not a job behind the desk. I'm out in the field, I meet new people. And I haven't been fired yet.

Unknown Speaker 15:34
So is it possible to have that man

Scott Benner 15:36
said, You, I really see you aren't as more of a poodle? groomer you would have been like, Alright, and, or,

Oren Lieberman 15:42
look, I can't rule it out. Maybe that's where I'd be.

Scott Benner 15:46
That's hilarious. Well, I think that the people you meet along the way, obviously help you, you know, especially when you're younger, right? You don't really know what you want to do. You just like my, my son, just, um, he's like, a sophomore in college. And the other day is like, I'm gonna have to, you know, go lock down my major with the school. And, you know, we're like, yeah, maybe get to that, if you don't mind. Excuse me. And I was like, you know, do you still have any idea what you want? He has no idea. Like, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a 20 year old would just, you know, like, Oh, yeah, sure. Here's all the things I want to do in life. And this is going to be perfectly correct. My wife was telling my daughter the other day, she's like, if, you know, the plans of the 19, or 20 year old me came true, none of you would exist, because I thought I was gonna live in an apartment by myself and do this. And, you know, she's like, you know, we met people on the way and kind of veered around and made decisions, but you're in a place now, you look very comfortable. Which is amazing. What's it like raising kids overseas? Are you? Are there any drawbacks, or you don't feel that way?

Oren Lieberman 16:46
Oh, my God, what I wouldn't give for grandparents near us to help us out or even, you know, my siblings to help us out. It's tough. We're a 12 hour flight away from home. Our kids don't get to see their grandparents that often. It's a great opportunity. My kids are learning multiple languages and meeting people from all over the world. But it's it's still difficult. And certainly at some point, the goal is get back to the US. Okay. You know, to your son, you can tell him, Look, I'm still making it up. as I go along. I do what's fun, and so far, it's led me down the right path.

Scott Benner 17:15
I just told him Look, man, like you're good at math. You know, get better at that and see if it leads you somewhere. And if it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, but you'll be educated. You'll have seen the world for four years, you'll at least be able to prove to an employer one day, look, I can sit down and do things that I don't really want to do. That's how I got this degree. I can work hard for you. So yeah, so your parents are actually close to me, but not to you, which was crazy when we reached out and then we're trying to set this up. And so you grew up incredibly close to where I'm at right now. Is that right?

Oren Lieberman 17:48
Yeah, I grew up on the Jersey Shore. My first job ever, I was a cabana boy at a beach club. And I've tried to move up in the world since then.

Scott Benner 17:55
But it's it seems like you may have all the fans not as good in tourism, but I mean, you know, what are you gonna do? So okay, so are you managing your diabetes now still with pens? Or have you changed how you're doing that?

Oren Lieberman 18:08
No, I still do pens. I have a lot of friends who've told me eventually everyone switches to a pump. And I said, Look, you're probably right. I'm just not there yet. I do have a CGM. I have a freestyle libri. I love that it's on my left arm at the moment. But I've decided not to go with an insulin pump yet and I I still carry around my pens that I inject in my arms and I don't care who sees

Scott Benner 18:30
that's First of all, that's fantastic. And you shouldn't care. I'm a huge proponent of just you know, handle yourself in public. Like why go into the dirtiest broom in a restaurant to? You know, open a hole? That's exactly. Yeah, I have to poke a hole on myself. Where should I go? The public restroom? That makes total sense. So you're you're pretty old school for 2019? Are you getting? Are you having the the results you're hoping for? Like your management is where you'd like it to be?

Oren Lieberman 19:00
Yeah, I have to admit, I haven't checked my a once in a while. But at last check. It was about 5.8. Wow. Which I'm very happy with. One of the things I think is easier about being diagnosed later in life is it's easier to be disciplined, right for for 31 years, I ate whatever I wanted for for 10 years, I drank whatever I wanted. And now Okay, now it's time to get a little serious on that. You know, I think it could be much harder going through the teenage years where you want to rebel a little bit, college could be difficult. So in that sense, I feel very lucky that I was diagnosed later and it's just buckling down. For two years. I wrote down every single one of my blood sugars in a notebook and what I had, how much insulin I took and what my reading was before and after. And although I even my doctor said look, this is nuts you're going to burn yourself out and that's very dangerous and diabetes. So even he told me to back off but that let's say that set the pace right and set a good direction for trying to eat right and exercise and and and look at my blood sugar's I'm not ashamed to keep that Keep injecting in front of people until it's where I want it to be. It's what you got to do.

Scott Benner 20:03
Well, that's pretty cool. And you said your wife still involved like she you think if you just shut down for a day, she could handle your blood sugars and things like that and like this dosing decisions and stuff, but she that involved or is it just more peripherally? No,

Oren Lieberman 20:18
no, I think she'd be pretty close. She might be a unit off here and there, but I think she'd be pretty darn close the risk there is there, she want to stab me over and over again, she might want to in which case we have bigger issues to work on. But she's still very involved in and checks that I've supplies when we go traveling and make sure I have the right supplies and everything I need. So she is still very involved in. In my diabetes. I think the only thing that frustrates her is now with two kids. I'm always scared, you know, when they're a little sick, oh, my God is a diabetes. And there she tells me Look, you got to calm down. And that's tough.

Scott Benner 20:49
I was gonna ask you, you have two two children? Yeah. Do you consider like trial net? Like, where are you with the idea of wanting to know if they have antibodies or not? Do you?

Oren Lieberman 20:59
So we did trial that with my daughter, who's now three and a half years old, we did that to children with diabetes? Three years ago? She was a or maybe two years ago, I forget. So I'm all for that. I'm curious. And if certainly if it helps science beyond just my family, that's great. So I'm all for that. She hasn't fought me on that. We're just in Jerusalem. So it's a little hard to keep in touch with all of that and keep up on it.

Scott Benner 21:23
No, of course, no, I've just spoken to people who have, you know, they seem to fall in one or two camps. And, you know, I have to know, I want to know, I want to be ready. That that feeling I don't want to wonder and then there's other people are like, Look, if it happens, it happens. You know, I can't I can't impact it. Everybody's got like a different feeling. I bring this up a lot. But Sam fold. Who is a coach with the Phillies now but used to play? He was in the he played Major League Baseball for eight years. He told me, like, you know, my life is perfectly well like this, like, why would I use like, I don't want my kids to have diabetes. But if they do, you know, it hasn't, it hasn't stopped me at all. And, and I thought that was really interesting. A really interesting perspective, just like, Look, I'm a person, would they not be a person anymore? If I if they had diabetes? No, you know, and I said, Wow, that's really, that's very clear headed. And when he said that, so yeah, I don't think there's a rule. I just was wondering what you were doing. Okay, so your life is really different than most people's. But no more so I think, than the idea of wanting to put yourself off the ground. I don't understand it. I think you're probably crazy. And everyone who wants to fly a plane I think has some sort of a there's something they're lacking in their brain that says, um, it's fine. We'll float up off the ground. I can handle that. That makes me that.

Unknown Speaker 22:41
Oh, come on.

Scott Benner 22:43
nervous. But I'm impressed by it. incredibly impressed by the idea how old were you when you thought I want to fly a plane. Have you always wanted to move to an insulin pump just waiting for the right time. Try today. Go to my Omni pod.com Ford slash juice box to request a free experience kit. From Omni pod, you'll be able to try a pod for free. So if you've if you're considering insulin pump therapy, the best way to understand the comfort and convenience the pod offers is to try it firsthand. So get a free experience kit which includes a sample nonfunctioning pod and see what you think there's absolutely no obligation to buy, you'll be able to wear a non functioning pod to see how it feels fine for you on your body or on your child's body and experience the freedom you could have with the on the pod tubeless insulin pump. Oh, that's right. There's no tubes. Unlike every other insulin pump on the market, the AMI pod is tubeless. It is completely a self contained unit. There's nothing for you to stuff in your bra or to clip on your belt, just this tiny little insulin pump. It just, you know, goes with you right on your skin. Everything you need inside of it, including the insulin. And when you want to tell it what to do, you just use the personal diabetes manager. Just a little thing you hold with you, right? Keep it with you push some buttons, and then it speaks wirelessly to the pump. It's magic, like through the air. Anyway, you understand it's 2020 how things can talk to each other. I don't think you're that crazed by it. But I'm just saying at least there's no long piece of tubing that goes from a controlling unit to your infusion set. Everything's just self contained Lafave. This is the exact same insulin pump My daughter has been wearing since she was four years old for over 11 years now. Miami pod.com forward slash juicebox. Check it out today. There's absolutely no obligation. The other sponsor I'll be talking about today is Dexcom. makers of the day g six continuous glucose monitor. Now this thing is, well, it's the bee's knees. Let's be the dexcom g six will tell you the speed and direction of your blood sugar. Right? Not just speed in the direction but what it is. So imagine knowing that your blood sugar is 126 and that it's moving up at a rate of three points per minute. Hmm, think about it mulling over, what could I do with that information? Well, I can tell you what we do with it. Now, our results are ours, of course, and yours may vary. But what we do with that information, in that scenario, we put in some insulin, or if we find out Arden's blood sugar's falling, maybe we take in some food, or cut back some bazel. There's so many options when you understand what your blood sugar is doing in real time. And those options for caregivers exist even when the person with diabetes isn't with you. Now, how could that happen? Right? smoke signals, the dexcom g six sends up a smoke signal when you read it at home. No. Please don't be ridiculous. will take forever. How about Apple and Android phones, having the dexcom share and follow features. That means if your kids off at school or a playground at a friend's house, and their blood sugar starts to change, you'll see it on your phone when you're following them. be kidding me? Don't have to say more. I mean, aren't you already scrambling around going to dexcom.com? forward slash juicebox? I would think you would be listen to the next column is how we make decisions every day. And you've heard me here and I've said it before and I think I've even said it in this episode. Or a one C is spectacular. Her variability. Amazing for health. Excellent. How's that happen? Beck's comment on the pot? Check out dex calm right now. The G six continuous glucose monitor dexcom.com forward slash juice box with the links in your show notes right there in your podcast player for the ones available at Juicebox podcast.com. And while you're clicking around on the internet, have on the pod send you one of those no obligation samples.

old were you when you thought I want to fly a plane?

Oren Lieberman 27:25
Two years old, three years old as young as I can remember no kid always, always wanted to be a pilot.

Scott Benner 27:30
All right. Okay, so let's dig into this. How do you become a pilot? Like what did you want me? I'm assuming lessons is where you start?

Oren Lieberman 27:37
Right? So when I was in high school, my dad started building a home built airplane. And my dad has a PhD in aerospace engineering. He's very smart. And he loves working with his hands. So he said this will take me three years. 11 years later, the plane is finally finished. And as we were getting near to completion, and we could see completion was on the horizon of our home built two seat airplane. I started taking flight lessons at the time I was in Delaware took me about six months, flying roughly twice a week. And that's it on March 14 2007. I became a certified pilot in the US. And my wife knows this very well. That was the most important day of my life until my daughter was born. It was pilot's license, number one, marriage number two. Now it's my son, my daughter is born, my son is born pilot's license marriage, it's that important to me that I'm that I'm able to be a pilot, did it ever occur to you to join the military, she could fly more?

Unknown Speaker 28:32
Yes.

Oren Lieberman 28:34
I told my dad that I wanted to be a fighter pilot. But he said look, you're gonna go to college, you're gonna get a degree. So I did that. And and by that point, that kind of set me off in the direction of, you know, my current job and broadcast journalism. But in 2008, or 2009, I actually applied to Air National Guard units to fly fighter jets. Okay. And I got an interview with Maryland. And as I sit down, and the the application is quite exhaustive in there a lot of tests you have to go through as I sit down for the interview. The first question is, we see here on your application, it says your right eye is 2400. Is that a typo? Should that say 2040? And I said no, my right is 2400. But with with contacts and glasses, it's correctable to 2020 I knew the interview was over at that point. Okay, I knew the second I told him I didn't have anywhere close to perfect vision in one eye The interview was over. And that's when I decided I will not be a fighter pilot or a commercial pilot and interesting that that's that's simple of an idea. Yeah, they don't want that.

Scott Benner 29:32
I guess you don't want to lose your contacts while you're going mock something. And yeah. Well, this thing's really bothering me today. My allergies. Was that devastating or no, you were kindness.

Oren Lieberman 29:45
No, I remember thinking and the interview continued for half an hour or so it was weird to sit there knowing full well The interview was really over but they wanted to go through the formality of it. There was something that almost put me at peace like okay, this dream is not happening. I can Now get back to full time being a reporter and, and pursue this because I because I still enjoy it, obviously. And they were really great guys that certainly helped. There was no like, it wasn't like you suck at this move on and get out of here it was, you know, they were encouraging and supportive. But I remember feeling like this is a moment of peace I can now move on from this dream. And I will just be a private pilot and do this for fun. Hmm.

Scott Benner 30:21
Well, I before we, I felt myself moving on. But I need to ask this question before I do. Your father made a lot of things that you trusted. Like Like he he built a car, your house by hand, things like that, or just the plane and then you got into it and flew away? Which is Does he still own that plane?

Oren Lieberman 30:41
Yeah, we still have the plane, it's still waiting for me when I go home. He built our house, he at one point at a company that was building houses. So he did build our house. I shouldn't say this. But he also his fascination. He started building remote control airplanes. And he crashed a lot of them. But the upside to that is I saw him fix a lot of them. So I knew there was handiwork somewhere in there. It was just did it come in the initial build or the let's fix this later. We look I think the first time I climbed into that plane, he was probably terrified.

Unknown Speaker 31:15
Like your taxi and he's like, I wonder if I just killed that kid? Like, I mean,

Unknown Speaker 31:20
does he fly? Is he a pilot?

Oren Lieberman 31:23
No, he's not. He is he loves to build airplanes that fly. I love to fly airplanes he built. So it's a wonderful relationship. In that sense. I fly with him. I take him flying as often as I can. He's actually taken lessons and can do everything. He just doesn't have the the pilot's certificate. Okay. And I have something I think I have something like 250 or 260 hours in our plane in our family plane. Wow.

Scott Benner 31:46
So being up in the air in a plane? Is it is everything? gage related, like how do you like that, that's what throws me off. Like here, I'm gonna give you a ticket on a different road for a second. My kid was playing baseball at Princeton one day he was he was working out trying to trying to get a college taken play baseball. And I'm off to the side. And there's a guy there with a drone. So I'm using this example because I know you know the space. So we are standing at the football stadium at Princeton University. And he flew his drone out to the traffic circle on Route one. And then brought it back. And I was flipped out by that. But that doesn't seem crazy to you, I imagine.

Oren Lieberman 32:29
No, I I assume the airspace there is perfectly legal. If it wasn't, he probably wouldn't have been able to fly the drone there, the drone probably wouldn't have even gotten off the ground, or entered that airspace.

Scott Benner 32:39
He just Hey, head on a pair of like, virtual reality goggles. And it just went up in the air and he was able to like see or and you're so like, aware of this that you're not following my my incredulous discussion? Like, how the hell did he find something and bring it back? Like I don't like none of that makes sense to me. But he had gauges in front of them. And he was able to do that. And Is that how you flight? Like how would you describe being up in the air in a cloud not being able to really see anything and still go where you mean to go.

Oren Lieberman 33:11
So I do have an instrument rating, I'm allowed to fly in the clouds. I don't generally I don't fly. If it's not good weather. I like flying on beautiful clear days, I like not having to look at my instruments at all. In an emergency. Of course, if I fly into a cloud, or suddenly the weather turns to crap i can i can instantly look down at my gauges and fly off of them. Normally, I fly in beautiful clear days. And when I take you flying, we're gonna do it on a beautiful clear day. And you're going to see that this is how airplanes work. I did get my instrument rating specifically so that if the weather turns bad, I can still fly and I can make it safely back onto the ground. It's difficult, because you need to trust the gauges. ignore everything your body is telling you. But also know to look out for what happens if the gauges malfunction. or stop working when it stops feeling right

Scott Benner 33:58
like so. So trust the gauges right up until it doesn't feel right.

Oren Lieberman 34:03
No trust the gauges. It's not based on your feeling. But there are checks for the instrument. So what happens if the instruments don't agree? It's not based on what you're feeling sort of in your body because that's completely unreliable in a cloud. It's based on the instruments versus themselves and checking that and double checking. It's difficult instrument flying is is a challenge. I haven't done much of it. But I got the instrument rating for basically for safety. Okay,

Scott Benner 34:28
yeah, no, I would imagine so when you're in a cloud and you can see your brain is telling you Yo man we're in trouble like you you get that so you have to ignore that feeling of this isn't right and lean on the on the gauges and then the redundancy I guess about what some gauges tell other gauges tell you about other gauges. That is the basic idea.

Oren Lieberman 34:48
Yeah, and when I when I did my instrument rating before you before you would do a flight in the cloud, it shouldn't surprise you right? You check the weather, you know, okay, this flight is going to be probably in the clouds because this is the weather forecast. So you know ignore what your body's telling you focus on the gauges and fly off of that. And obviously, the more you do it, the better you get at it, the more comfortable it gets. I haven't done a lot of it. And frankly, I haven't done it in years. So I wait for my good clear, beautiful days to fly in those days. I stick with it now.

Scott Benner 35:19
Gotcha. Now, larger airliners, do they, from what you know, do they fly them? I mean, I don't want to use this term. It feels weird. But I, I had, I knew someone once that flew, like, you know, large people movers, you know, hundreds, right? And he's like, Look, man, you basically push a button I think takes off, you push another button that thing lands it's you know, you're there in case something goes wrong. That's how he described flying an airliner but his I don't know if he was being flippant or showing off? Like, I can't tell because I've never spoken to another, you know, pilots since then. maybe one or two? Is that how do those planes work? And, and I know you don't fly them, but what is your knowledge of them.

Oren Lieberman 35:59
I mean, the level of automation on those on commercial airliners is incredible. The the auto pilots are fantastic. The what's called the FMS, the flight management system is incredible. And you get the airplane off the ground, you can hit a button, and the plane will do almost the rest. And some planes can even land themselves. So there it is possible to do that. And that's how some pilots approach it. Some pilots take the approach that we're there to make sure nothing goes wrong. Let the plane fly itself. Others like the hand fly, and you can hand fly for portions of a flight. So it depends on the pilot. But yes, mot your modern commercial airliner is an incredible piece of technology that can largely fly itself are.

Scott Benner 36:42
Okay, so all right. So now let's get to more of why I should have gone on the podcast. I don't know if you've ever heard but 150 episodes ago, I had a man on named john. And he came on to tell his story of how his career was completely taken from him. When he was diagnosed with Type One Diabetes. He was a pilot. And in like the blink of an eye, his entire what he loved what he did what you know, the way he made his money and supported himself was gone in an instant. And so my question is has How long has it been a state is? Has this standing rule been that people with type one diabetes? can't fly? Is that certain certain larger airplanes? Like how long has that been in effect? Is it? Is it an always thing? Or always?

Oren Lieberman 37:29
Yes. Since the dawn of aviation. Okay.

When commercial, as far as I know, and I'd have to check this to be 100% sure, but I'm sure that, you know, once we created the commercial airliner system, and once the authorities and the regular regulators created the the pilot system to make sure somebody is fit for flight, if you had type one diabetes, or insulin dependent diabetes, you were not going to be a commercial pilot. Okay. And I think that was probably that way from the very beginning.

Scott Benner 37:56
And so you could fly your own private plane. Is that right?

Oren Lieberman 38:01
Even that, I'd have to check on the history of that. That was allowed in the US, I believe in the 90s. You can fly your own private plane within certain parameters. But you couldn't fly commercially, you were never going to be a commercial pilot. You could just get your own license for yourself. And even that wasn't standard. So other countries simply said, Nope, not happening. You're not allowed.

Scott Benner 38:20
Okay. And obviously, I mean, obviously, the idea is that if you have mismanaged your insulin too much your blood sugar could plummet quickly. And, you know, when exactly we're not looking for you to crash an airplane.

Unknown Speaker 38:33
And it's exactly yeah.

Scott Benner 38:36
And I'm sure there were people back then, too, who, whose management was amazing. And they're like, Look, that's not gonna happen to me. But you know, I mean, think about it, from their perspective, from the people making the decisions perspective, a large plane up there, you have lives in your hands. And you've got to whip out a meter and test your blood sugar. And you know, what, if you are getting low, and how long it would take to come back, like it makes sense, like, you know, basically, from an outsider's point of view, it makes sense that like you don't I mean, like, it doesn't seem like the most egregious thing in the world to say that somebody using manmade insulin 50 years ago, wouldn't be able to fly a plane, or do you feel differently about that?

Oren Lieberman 39:13
No, I get it as a blanket rule. I agree with you as a blanket rule, especially. You know, before we had the technologies that are so common to us, these days, CGM and insulin pumps and, and all sorts of other tools and devices to make our management better. I understand it as a blanket rule. I think we're frustrated a lot of pilots is when the technology got better. And when when when pilots with diabetes, were able to show look at how good my management is. I haven't had a dangerous low. That was when it became frustrating that the FAA wouldn't consider a case by case exemption.

Scott Benner 39:47
They were like no, we have a rule and that's that.

Oren Lieberman 39:50
Yeah. And that's, that's what frustrated a lot of people and that's what a lot of people were also advocating for from the American Diabetes Association to to the aircraft owners and Pilots Association. And they were all pushing for the FAA to take a second look at this.

Scott Benner 40:03
Yeah. Is it the advent of technology that move this along? Or is it just people pushing? What do you think got us to where we are now, which is, you know, the rule being overturned?

Oren Lieberman 40:15
Both, I think there's a lot of banging on doors from a lot of people. But also in in writing his decision, the Federal air surgeon wrote, the technology has gotten to the point where this is manageable, you can manage and manage very well, your your diabetes, with insulin in flight. So what what the change now has done is it used to be that you that if you had insulin dependent diabetes, you couldn't apply for first or second class medical. And that's the sort of level of medical required to fly commercially, to fly commercial airliners. And now they'll say, we'll consider this on a case by case basis. And that's the big change, that they're even willing to consider the application.

Scott Benner 40:55
That's an enormous change. It's not a no, it's a huge, it's a huge step for but it's not a blanket, it's not like, it's not like if you have diabetes, right now, you just say, I have diabetes on my medical form, and they go, that's fine. And you get you get this distinction. It's still it's case by case, they're gonna they're gonna sit and review every person with type one diabetes who who wants to have this this license? Is that right?

Oren Lieberman 41:19
Exactly. And I haven't talked to anybody going through the process, although I know there are a few who have begun to go through the process. But I imagine it will not be pain free, quite exhaustive, even especially as they start doing maybe even quite difficult. They want to see, I'd imagine they want to see your records, they want to make sure you weren't hospitalized with a low blood sugar.

And, frankly, all of this paperwork just takes time to dig up.

Unknown Speaker 41:43
will outlast them.

Oren Lieberman 41:46
But But you know, but the process is there. Yeah. So what

Scott Benner 41:50
I was thinking is that, you know, the advent of the technology makes them think of it differently. But they're not saying you have to use the technology. So I could still roll in with my pens and my meter and be like, Look, I hear my records, I've been fine. And they'd still have to consider me it's not like they're saying, look, you have to work at Dexcom, if you want to do this is that? That's

Oren Lieberman 42:10
a good question. I don't know they may require. They may require a CGM. Instead of simply you know, an old school, one touch where you're pricking your finger every hour, they require you to be able to check instantly and know not only your current blood sugar, but the last X amount of hours. So you know what? Your trending? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know specifically how they're going to do that. But something like that wouldn't surprise me. Because they want to be exact on this. There are other countries that allow insulin dependent diabetes to fly commercial aircraft that require two pilots. So one of them has insulin dependent diabetes, the other does not. So for example, Canada, I believe, allows that

Scott Benner 42:47
they're so nice.

Oren Lieberman 42:48
And that's I think the direction the US is going in the US won't allow you to fly plan on yourself, but by yourself with somebody else. You know, if you're if your blood sugars are carefully managed, they've decided it could be safe enough with another pilot in the

Scott Benner 43:02
cockpit. But again, that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's you know, you can't ignore the fact that I mean, listen, I'll warn you my daughter's 15 she's had diabetes since she was two. I am you know, it. Cheese. I just tripped over my own words, because I don't want to sound like a douchebag. But I'm incredibly type one diabetes. Okay. And so my daughter's a once he's been between five to six to for over five years, or variable. Wow, terrific, or stability. You and I have been talking right now her blood sugar has been 85 the entire time we're talking she's at school. And and I know how to do this pretty well. There are several times when out of nowhere, I'm like, Why is her blood sugar falling like that, like I, you know, in a million years could not have predicted, you know, today is going to be the day that this is going to happen out of nowhere. And I have a fairly good handle on it. But, you know, it also comes down to, in my mind also like, like civil liberties. You know, there's, you know, I think it's, uh, you know, we say MIT, you know, there's a lot of jokes about different people's professions, but, you know, drinking amongst pilots is, is something that I think is a is not unheard of. And yet, you know, that happens. And there's no, like, hard and fast rule that you have to, you know, blow into a breathalyzer before you go into a plane. So, I mean, where do you draw the line for people who, you know, not to, again, I'm not it's not apples to apples. alcoholism and

Unknown Speaker 44:34
but I'm saying like, you

Scott Benner 44:36
know, what, I was saying oranges, you're pretty Yeah, alcoholic here with you there. You know, I'm just saying like, you know, this is something that's known. And it's not like everyone's being cut away. And so you get, you know, you get a chance to prove yourself that's, that's, that's America right? At the same time, I don't want you proven yourself while me and my family are trying to get to Disney World. Maybe Great Day, but but it's a really interesting conversation. And I think it's moving in the right direction. I'm incredibly excited about where it's going. Because after listening to john talk about this thing that he loved so much, and hearing you talk about how much you not only love flying, but you've wanted to do it your entire life, it seems incredibly arbitrary to just take it from somebody like that.

Oren Lieberman 45:23
I agree. And and look, certainly I'm frustrated that the process is taking this long, but the FDA is now on board. Like I said, the first few through the system, I'm sure it's gonna be a pain in the neck, and it might be a pain in the neck for everybody. But at least it can be a pain in life, at least the option is there. Yeah. And you can pursue this.

Scott Benner 45:40
Yeah, get into the fight, try to make it work. I do find myself wondering while we're talking, if there isn't going to be just sort of an institutional bias because this has always been this way. And, okay, we've given you guys your attempt to, you know, you're allowed to get into this now and try to get through the system. But we don't really want I wonder if there is that we don't really want you here, and we're gonna make this really difficult feeling or if it is an open feeling, and they are looking for people who were are great candidates for this. I hope it's the latter. But, you know, sometimes there's boys clubs that, you know, I mean, sometimes people, you know, you know what I'm saying like, it could be that situation where they're like, Alright, we let you apply, but no, and that's it. I'm dying to find out like, I can't wait for people's applications to get through and, and to see how it goes. Because I'm hoping for, I'm hoping that it's just case by case and get your license back. That'd be amazing.

Oren Lieberman 46:33
Yeah, that would be incredible. And the one thing from that perspective we have going for us is there's a massive pilot shortage in the US. So at some point, massive pilot shortage over the over the course of the next decade or two decades. As somebody might be, it might, you know, the airlines might not think this is the greatest idea right now. Look, if the FAA has signed off on you and giving you the permission to fly with insulin dependent diabetes, the need is there, you're signed off, they gave you your medical get in the cockpit and start flying.

Scott Benner 47:03
I got in a plane the other day, and the pilot didn't, he was so old that I thought someone must have carried him into the cockpit right now. I'm just gonna hope that means, you know that he's got a lot of experience. But I'm expecting like, at that age to the nappy, you know?

Oren Lieberman 47:23
It's got that's a bit harsh. That's a bit hard to come on. Come on.

Scott Benner 47:26
I don't know I get sleepy. Now. I'm not even 50.

Unknown Speaker 47:29
So.

Scott Benner 47:31
But But no, I mean, it's, it's, it's really, again, there's a shortage, what popped into my brain was what we have now is the glut of common sense.

Unknown Speaker 47:39
Because

Scott Benner 47:42
Do you know why there's a shortage? Is there something that they can point to?

Oren Lieberman 47:48
There are a lot of reasons. It's not the glamour job at once was, you know, sort of the 50s 60s and 70s. It's a very difficult industry. You know, you start your holiday in the middle of the night flights and small airplanes to try to build up your hours. It also takes a lot of time to build up the hours necessary to be a commercial airliner, all of that just makes it more difficult to be a pilot and fewer, fewer and fewer people are interested in going that direction. That plus so many other reasons, has led to just a massive shortage of pilots over the course of the next, you know, decades, especially as air travel itself is growing and growing continuously. Yeah,

Scott Benner 48:26
it's funny, you made me think if I'm remembering correctly, when john was on, he talked about he is was still able to, like fly cargo, I guess. or in small, I guess in smaller planes if I'm remembering right, that's but you know, but he would describe it as like, these long overnight flights, like over mountain ranges and just you know, not not what he was doing prior. I do think to his airline allowed him to do training for people, which I think he still found, like, satisfying, but obviously not the same as flying.

Unknown Speaker 48:59
Right? What isn't? It could very well be Yeah. What is

Scott Benner 49:02
it about? The Can you put it into words like what's amazing about flying, if I said to you, if I took this from you, you would miss? Like, what is that thing for you?

Oren Lieberman 49:12
It's magic. It's the closest thing to real magic, you will get on God's green earth, the ability to hop into an airplane, flip a switch, you know, crank the engine over and take off. That's it. I don't I don't have to worry about gravity anymore. Until I run out of fuel. It there's nothing like it in the world. Just being able to take off and do what you want fly up and down the East Coast. I've taken our family's home built airplane up to Lake Placid down to Jacksonville, as far west as Nashville.

And it's everything about is incredible.

Scott Benner 49:45
So and I grew up fairly broke. So we didn't go on vacations or you know, smile. I'm just kidding. But we didn't go on vacation. And I didn't fly as you know, a child. So I'm going to tell you this brief story. I don't think have ever told this story. But it belongs here. So it's late at night. We're in outside in northeast Philly, all hanging out of the movie theater. We're friends of ours work. And it's got to be like one o'clock in the morning. And this one of our friends comes pulling up super, like fast like, this comes to a screeching halt. We're all outside, it's a summer night. And he's like, yo, you guys got to come down to the northeast airport, stuttering john from the Howard Stern Show is going to be there in an hour, and he's flying out, we can meet him. And you know, we're like 19. So that's the right thing to do. And you know, and so we get in the car, we drive down to this little airport. And we're all hanging out, you know, in the office waiting. And sure enough, here comes, you know, this guy who works on the Howard Stern Show, and later, I guess, was on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. And he's with a friend. And it turns out, they had a band and they were playing locally in the city. And he had to go to Albany, because howard stern was running for governor or something like that. And they were doing this thing, and he had to fly away. So we're all just standing there like talking a little bit. And we kind of just walked with Him out on the tarmac to this, you know, small plane. And he climbs up the stairs to get on the plane. And he turns around to realize that his buddy was not with him. And he looks at his friend, and he says, Yo, man, come on, and the guy goes, I can't go with you. I have to go back to the gig and clean up our stuff. And john says, I'm not getting on this plane by myself. And he makes eye contact with me. He goes, you want to go to Albany? And I went, Yes, I do. And I walked, right. I walked forward, and I and I start going up on the plane. And I realized I'm there with five or six friends who I'm just abandoning, like with no thought whatsoever.

Unknown Speaker 51:41
And I said, I said to him,

Scott Benner 51:42
I said, Can I bring somebody with me? He was asked the pilot, I said, can we bring more people and the guy goes, you bring one more. So I turned around, made the hardest decision of my life, pick my friend Mike over other people who I really love. We get on the plane, we're, you know, he said, Thank you, I didn't want to fly by myself. I would have been nervous. And we're taxiing down the runway. And this plane is picking up speed and it gets ready to look off the ground with off the ground and my buddy looks me right in the eye. And he goes, you've never been in a plane before. And I didn't realize it until he told me because of the moment I had never flown I had never been off the ground. And I had my friend not told me I would not have realized that as the plane got up. Because it was just such a bizarre set of circumstances, you know? Anyway, we get to Albany and and it was a really cool flight and asked him all kinds of questions about his life and stuff like that. And but it was before cell phones and you know, anything. So my friend and I are in Albany, New York with no wallet, no phone, no anything. And he and he's like, so what we'll do now and I'm like, oh, man, we got to go back. You know, like I can't stay like a city at least tomorrow, you know, and he couldn't promise that so he looks at the pilots because we take these guys back and the pilots are all like trying to you know be nice to john like of course of course, we get on the plane and and they shut the heat off. They didn't care about it. Like we were not employed we were returned into cargo on the way back but my buddy and I got we landed it like sun sunrise and then walked three and a half miles home because we were abandoned at the airport by our by our friends. But it was a really incredible night and the first time I'd ever been on the plane now I fly a lot to go to speaking stuff but and you know vacationing and things like that once in a while. But yeah, I hadn't I'd never thought about being in a plane until I was in one.

Oren Lieberman 53:30
So how do we get from there to you not liking flying all that much? It's not good. That seems like a pretty, pretty good start.

Scott Benner 53:37
I don't mind flying. I don't mind being in a plane actually at all. I just can't imagine the idea that I would want to be in charge of the plane. Like that's the thing that I can't wrap my head around. Like I was in Costco yesterday looking for something. And I realized that I'd walk down the same aisle three times. And that doesn't to me seem like the kind of person who should be in charge of flying something through the

Unknown Speaker 53:57
through the air.

Scott Benner 53:58
I just don't think I have the focus it would take to do that. It just seems like it like you said it's it seems magical. I don't think I'm magical. I think I'm a good driver. I just I don't I don't think I could be in charge of a plane.

Oren Lieberman 54:13
Look, there's much less to hit up there. You don't have to worry about driving vs flying. So you've never had the controls in your hands of an airplane. Never. No,

Scott Benner 54:21
no, that seems that seems otherworldly to me. It really does. Like

Unknown Speaker 54:25
Alright, I'm gonna take you flying G's or you're gonna kill me just for this podcast. That's fine. And

Oren Lieberman 54:31
it'll be it'll be a later podcast. But I realized I live in Jerusalem and I'm not home that often. But hopefully over summer, we'll put the controls in your hands. I'll do takeoff and landing. I'll take care of that. You do everything else.

Scott Benner 54:42
I'll tell you when you were email and you said ask Arden if she'd like to go and I told her and she's like, yeah, I'm not doing that.

Oren Lieberman 54:49
Come on. That's not fair.

Scott Benner 54:50
But I guess fair. Whatever is in me is in her because she was like, Who? I don't know. Um, no, thank you. And I was like, it is really well, you know, it's sort of it's Sort of society to like, you know, a fan go to an airport and a company owns the plane all the sudden that seems more. I don't know what legitimate, you know, but it's not like a like, what's the difference between I also live through john Denver crashing so I've been I was alive for.

Oren Lieberman 55:17
So, Scott, you're easy to convince because all I need to do is tell you the best sandwich shop I've ever been to. Is it an airport in Virginia and I'll fly you there.

Scott Benner 55:25
I I'm not gonna lie, it would probably be pretty cool. I have a funny you said that because I have a speaking thing in Virginia in August. And I said to them, like, you're not gonna expect me to drive to that, right? Like, I have to fly and they're like, No, no, we'll fly. You don't say okay, I said, because I'm not driving that far. And and it's only a few hours. You know, I have no problem. I'm gonna be in a plane. Five, six times in the next six months. I've no thought I don't I'm not a nervous flier. Like nothing about flying bothers me whatsoever. I have a real Zen feeling about life and death. Like I'm up there. Now. It's either going to get on the ground, or it's not like I'm not going to spend time worrying about it. That I'm okay with. I have no trouble with that. Alright, so we'll see what happens. How and you do? How often do you get home? Is it just to visit family, usually

Oren Lieberman 56:10
three or four times a year and my number one priority? I tell people that seeing my family. My number one priority is seeing my airplane is is scheduling a day to go to the airport and get in getting some flying? Can you fly in Jerusalem at all? Theoretically, I could try to transfer my license. But everything is here. Everything. Everything here is military airspace, which means there's no like freedom of flying like there is in the US in the US. I can take off from Old Bridge New Jersey and go just about wherever I want. Here. It's there's none of that here. It's you're doing this, you're doing it at this altitude, go here, do this. I'll save my flying for the US.

Scott Benner 56:49
Wow. Okay, so a couple other questions before I let you go.

Unknown Speaker 56:53
Of course, you wrote

Scott Benner 56:54
a book called the insulin express what? What got you to do that?

Oren Lieberman 57:00
So when we started traveling, I decided I wanted to write a book. The problem is everyone who decides to travel decides they want to write a book. So I didn't actually know what made my story, a good story. And then I was diagnosed with diabetes while traveling. And I decided okay, now I have a story. And it ended up being It was supposed to be a book about travel. And now I think in the end, it's more a book about travel with diabetes, the diagnosis, the symptoms that I ignored, until until it was almost too late. And then getting back on the road. And it's intended to be funny, hopefully a little inspirational for those who read it and just sort of have a good time and, and hopefully it inspired a few people to get out there and travel. Excellent.

Scott Benner 57:42
Well, I I'm a big proponent, actually some Joking aside of, of people not being afraid with their diabetes. So I'm gonna I'll put a link with the podcast episode to your book. Is Amazon the place you'd want them to go get it? Yeah, thank you. No, of course. No. That's Isn't it funny you think? Because of your job, right? I guess who you are. It's like your story. you consider yourself a storyteller? Like, like, take the Yeah, write the news and turn it into something that people would be interested in listening to.

Oren Lieberman 58:13
Yeah, I've always viewed Our job is part of my job is to gather information. And the other part of that is to make make that information presentable and interesting. That whole part is the storytelling part. And, and that's the part I enjoy is making something, you know, making something compelling and interesting, and I hope I did that with the insulin Express. Yeah,

Scott Benner 58:31
I have to say, like, I'm, I'm proud of the podcast for that. Because, you know, when I, when I first started doing this, like, five years ago, somebody told me, you're gonna run out of things to talk about about diabetes, and I was like, No, you're thinking about it wrong. You know, like, it's not just a it's not just a way to say things that people that is, you know, medicine things that they should hear, but they don't want to hear like, this is a way to have conversations about things. And, and open it exactly right. You know, and I think that I think of myself that way a little bit too. Like there's a way to take diabetes, and turn it into something you want to hear about. And and I think that's a, I think that's something that everyone should be doing, instead of just delivering dry information. Like I don't know, I couldn't listen to like I always say if it you know, you could put the secret to life at the end of a one hour podcast, but if it was boring, I probably wouldn't exactly know if I need to know that badly, you know, to listen straight through. But I just, I think that's a really incredible thing. So I don't know how comfortable you are with this. But I am incredibly interested about this and like I know somebody who's a professor at Princeton who does a lot of travel to Israel, and I every time I'm with her I asked her like explain the conflict in Israel to me in like layman's terms. And would you Oh God, would you can you do it? Can you turn it into a like a five minute after school special version of what it is that's happening in Israel like and why it's important. Are you too big of it? Wow. Is it too big of an ask?

Oren Lieberman 1:00:03
I may, let me think of is it too big of an ask this is basically describe everything I talked about.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:11
Like why should I?

Scott Benner 1:00:12
Why should someone who doesn't normally care, care about what's happening there? Maybe that's a more fair question.

Oren Lieberman 1:00:22
Well, that that's an easier question, because what happens here very much ties now into the US in the US foreign policy, to some extent in the US domestic policy. And that's because of the relationship between not only President Donald Trump and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, but also between Trump and Israel. His relationship with Israel is very important to his voters, to evangelicals and, and, and some, you know, many religious Christian voters. So in that sense, the two are very much linked. I may live in a you know, in a different country, but they are very closely linked from the perspective of modern US policy and modern US politics and the history of the conflict question and sort of what it's all about that what that will push off, that's a, that's a long, long discussion, I can send you guys a whole bunch of links of stories I've written and that will only be a fraction of, of catching you up to speed on what it is we follow here. It's too big, because of just time and how long it's been going on, and that there are two distinct, am I right, that there are two distinct points of views? Yeah, absolutely. And, and beyond that, two distinct narratives of events view different ways. Decisions viewed as taken for different reasons. claims of connection to the land, almost kind of who was here first, and, and why I have a right to be here, and you don't have as much of a right to be here. It all goes into that. And then the context of, of what's what's important, and what's not. All of that comes from two entirely different perspectives. And it's, it's my job or part of my job to consider all of that when we decide what it is we're going to say and and how to say it.

Scott Benner 1:02:03
So when people are delivering the news, or there's, in my mind, there's two ways to deliver it. Right? You deliver the facts, or some people deliver the facts with their personal feelings involved. Right, like and you are you would you consider yourself? The former, you're just delivering the facts.

Oren Lieberman 1:02:21
That's my job. And that's what I try to do. Yeah, I try not to let my personal feelings get involved in any way. I do try to add analysis and that goes beyond just the facts. That's, that's kind of the facts. Plus, how does this figure into the current situation? Or, or sort of how did we get here? Or where's this going? That's beyond the facts. But that's, you know, I try to be as sort of cold and unemotional in my analysis, as I can be. Yeah. But that's, you know, in a sense, that's just part of the story. The facts are one part and the analysis around it tries to make it more interesting and put it in some sort of context.

Scott Benner 1:02:53
Yeah. So for me, I think that if everyone has whatever the facts are, then it'll shake out over time. And I think the problem is, is that we all want things to be fixed so quickly, like we, you know, we don't want to wait a week, we want to wait an hour, we don't want to wait a year, we want to wait a week, like everybody wants it to be quick. And I'm sort of of the opinion that if everyone just understood what was happening, that slowly over time, things would work out the way they're going to work out, when you start trying to manipulate what's happening to to get to an end, then you get to that end artificially, and you're never going to be there comfortably. Even if you get them there. I don't know if that's convoluted or not, but, but you can't get to something in a false manner, because it won't be true. And then it'll just it'll, it's never going to be something we can move on from I guess or to build on top of like, I just feel like you have to let the chips fall where they may. And and I'm very happy for people like you who are able to deliver that information and let people make their own decisions or let it impact the world the way it's going to.

Oren Lieberman 1:04:01
I try. You know, I hope I hope my viewers think I'm doing a good job. I hope our viewers think I'm doing a good job. But it's just but at the end of the day, that's certainly my goal.

Scott Benner 1:04:10
Yeah. And and do you do you find enough? This is difficult for you? I'm not sure. And I know I didn't say I was gonna toss but is it? Is it difficult to be doing this job right now? Is it more difficult to be doing it now than it has been in the past?

Oren Lieberman 1:04:23
Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I think so. And part of that is, you know, we want to build on the facts, but when we can't agree upon the facts, it's a, you know, that's a whole different world of problems, right?

Scott Benner 1:04:40
No, no, I it's difficult to talk about because you feel like it's interesting. In the past, you feel like you could have a conversation. And now it feels like if I say something, I'm going to alienate half of the people listening. And and it's hard because then I think we stop having honest conversations and then it's tough to, to know what happens next. Like, right if we If, if you're in a, if you're on one side of a paywall, and I'm on the other side of a paywall, and I'm just seeing what I want to see, and you're seeing what you want to see, and then how do we, how either of us understand what's happening anymore? It's I don't know. It's interesting. It's a very interesting problem.

Oren Lieberman 1:05:16
Yeah, I agree with you. From my perspective, you know, I think this gets at what you're pointing out, the middle ground is missing, you know, let's meet and discuss in the middle ground, except when when the middle ground is missing. It's tough to even begin that conversation. And and, you know, it turns toxic when it shouldn't. Right.

Scott Benner 1:05:32
Yeah, you know, yeah, if that's well put, it really is. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I'm just it's fascinating. Like, I could have talked to you about a completely different thing today. I just I you know, what I think it happened to me is that the big report came out this morning. And it got me thinking about all that, right. I was always jumping on with you. And I was like, Oh, see, look, here's the report of what happened. someone's like, that's not what happened. I'm like, What the hell? Yeah. It's like, exactly. It's like, I feel like it's snowing and someone's telling me I'm on the beach. And I'm just like, I don't know what to do. Did I? Did I leave anything out of this, that I should have brought up that I that I'm a miss for not?

Oren Lieberman 1:06:16
I don't think so. Other than the ironclad commitment that you're gonna come flying with me. All right. All right. All right. Okay. All right.

Scott Benner 1:06:23
So when we, but when we land, and we go to chickies and pizza afterwards, or we're gonna be close to

Oren Lieberman 1:06:28
Oh my God, I miss chickies and pizza. There's so many things that I miss. And there's the stupid things right? I miss Chinese food. There's an Asian restaurant here, a new one. That's fancy, and it's like General Tso's Chicken is 20 bucks. And it's like, No, I want to pay $6 for this and I want to feel horrible after I eat it. That's what I miss. I miss dunkin donuts. I want a large watered down American coffee. That's the thing.

Scott Benner 1:06:50
That's amazing. I know already. So there is an airport in my town. So I guess I'm gonna have a hard time making up an excuse for this. But okay, let's stay in touch. And you can you can you can drop me out of the sky in a rock if you want to. I don't.

Oren Lieberman 1:07:07
I don't have that kind of range. So you're safe.

Scott Benner 1:07:10
It's amazing. So do you like do you plan ideas around the idea that you can fly like both fly here and then do this or?

Oren Lieberman 1:07:17
Yeah, look, if the weather in a perfect world.

You know, we'd fly to Delaware, but a 45 minute flight. We'd have lunch and fly back. Okay.

Scott Benner 1:07:26
All right. All right. I'm in.

Oren Lieberman 1:07:28
If you're having a good time, we can fly to Virginia and fly to my sandwich shop. That's about two hours in the air. that's a that's a bit much for sort of a first flight when I'm giving you the controls. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:07:36
Oh, yeah. I'm not looking to. Plus you. You heard me earlier. I could get sleepy at any point. And we have an autopilot. Okay. All right. All right. I'm in. Alright, you back and then that'll be it. I really appreciate you doing this so much. Give me one second to say goodbye to you without the recording,

Unknown Speaker 1:07:53
of course.

Scott Benner 1:07:54
Or in Lieberman's book, the insulin Express one backpack, five continents, and the diabetes diagnosis that changed everything is available@amazon.com. Except they say amazon.com. And I don't feel like re recording that. So there's a link in the show notes to get the book or to check it out. And just kind of gotta live with my terrible pronunciation there for a second. I want to thank dancing for diabetes, you can find them at touched by type one.org. I want to thank Dexcom for their sponsorship and support of the Juicebox Podcast and of course on the pod the world's only tubeless insulin pump. The combination of Dexcom and Omni pod in our lives has been astounding, impactful, lovely, comforting,

Unknown Speaker 1:08:49
and much more.

Scott Benner 1:08:51
But it was very feeling Did you feel that I really meant that. Anyway, I hope you check them out dexcom.com forward slash juice box, my omnipod.com forward slash juice box links in the show notes for your podcast player the links that are available at Juicebox podcast.com. Or of course you could just type these things in your browser. We appreciate you supporting the podcast by supporting the advertisers. Here's a little bonus for listening through to the end. This is from the FAA faa.gov the Federal Aviation

Unknown Speaker 1:09:25
Administration

Scott Benner 1:09:25
guide for aviation medical examiner's decisions considerations, decision considerations, right this stuff, decision considerations disease protocols, diabetes mellitus type one and type two insulin treated non CGM third class option, consideration will be given only to those individuals who have been clinically stable on their current treatment regimen for a period of six months or more. The FAA has an established policy that permits this special issue Medical certificates and God's name Why don't they just say this in English this special issuance medical certification to some insulin treated applicants. Individuals certified under this policy will be required to provide medical documentation regarding their history or treatment, accidents and current medical status. If certified, they will be required to adhere to monitoring requirements. There are no restrictions regarding flight outside of the United States airspace. airman with a current third class certification will have the limitation removed with their next certification or their next certificate. I guess that could have said either not not with their next either but their next certificate or certification just happens to say certificate I picture ledger hung out for this. If they need the limitation removed sooner, they should contact a MMCD for an updated certificate without the limitation. The following is a summary of the evaluation protocol and an outline of the condition that the FAA will apply for third class applications first and second class applications will be evaluated on a case by case basis by the Federal air surgeon's office. That was right there on faa.gov. At the bottom in parentheses, it says note insulin pumps are acceptable. This page was last modified November 7 2019 4:06pm.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:34
In the afternoon, Eastern time. Well,

Unknown Speaker 1:11:40
that was something

Unknown Speaker 1:11:43
I think we've learned that I can't read.

Scott Benner 1:11:46
Alright, I'll see you guys soon.

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