+ Click for EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

---

DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
You're listening to Episode 191 of the Juicebox Podcast. We are sponsored today by Omni pod Dexcom and dancing for diabetes, you can go to my omnipod.com slash juice box dexcom.com slash juice box or dancing the number four diabetes.com to find out more. Today's episode is with Catherine, it is called shame cycle. Today we're going to focus on shame and guilt and the difference between the two. We're also going to take a look into the difference between healthy guilt and unhealthy guilt. I'm going to put a link in the show notes to the National Institute for the clinical application of Behavioral Medicine. There's a great infographic there that will show you the difference between guilt and shame. And I'll even show you the difference between unhealthy and healthy guilt. That just in case that all sounds just too serious for you. Don't worry, there's plenty of other conversation here about Katherine and her 10 years with Type One Diabetes. Katherine's even got magic underwear. I mean, this episode easily could have been called Katherine has magic underwear. So don't go thinking it's gonna bum you out. It isn't, you know, this podcast, I'm not gonna bum me out. You also know that nothing you hear that Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. And to always consult a physician before making changes to your health care plan.

Katherine Hayes 1:25
I get the same feeling every time I go that this shame just washes over me like I'm not enough. And I realized as I was listening to your podcast that other people were feeling that too. I'm Katherine Hayes. And I've been a type one diabetic for just over 10 years. I was diagnosed in 2007. And I'm 27 now and I have three kids. Wow. It's tough.

Scott Benner 1:56
Well, wait, hold on a second parts tough the three kids the diabetes. Okay, so let's start slow. diagnosed right at the end of high school. Hmm. Um,

Katherine Hayes 2:09
I was in 11th grade 11th grade?

Unknown Speaker 2:11
That's, um,

Katherine Hayes 2:13
yeah, it was tough. There was a lot of I mean, high school just sucks already. So it was it was hard. But

Unknown Speaker 2:23
I don't know.

Scott Benner 2:25
I think I have an idea because my son's a senior this year, and really great student but halfway through this year, he was sort of like, This isn't over yet. Like windows, like I'd been accepted the college like when, when does all this stop and he's doing a great job of plowing through it. But he doesn't have diabetes. And it wasn't dropped on something big and huge wasn't dropped on him at this point in your life where you're sort of like, Hey, I'm finishing something, I've accomplished something. I'm almost an adult, like, happy. You know, so it was your any foresight any in your, in your family or anything like that, that

Katherine Hayes 2:59
well, so the year before I had gotten mono. And that like sent my grades down pretty low. Especially in math, because I kept falling asleep in class. And and like I just couldn't stay awake and I didn't know that. Like that was a sign that I needed to go to the doctor or anything. But um, but so that was tough and then being diagnosed the next year. It was not good for my grades but yeah. made it through

Scott Benner 3:33
strung together though. The Moto hits you and then the diabetes hit you. Yeah. And Oh, geez, that sucks. I I want to tell you a story of it's inappropriate for the mother when I was a kid and the way I the way I got through it was by talking to my girlfriend into believing that if I was happier that the motto would be easier to deal with. And it worked. I felt bad for her but

Unknown Speaker 3:59
nevertheless, did she get moto as well? Did not. And

Katherine Hayes 4:05
well the person that I got it from that they were careful. Alright.

Scott Benner 4:09
Well, that's boys. Oh, yeah, boy, nevermind. Boys. I think that's the lesson here. Also, you you learned that lesson over and over again over the last decade. It's man made you pregnant three times.

Unknown Speaker 4:23
And I don't know how it happened.

Unknown Speaker 4:26
You're really not sure.

Scott Benner 4:29
So when old are your kids? Are they all like a year old? Jim all at the same time?

Katherine Hayes 4:33
No, I have a five year old a three year old and a two year old.

Scott Benner 4:38
Okay. All right. Well, that's it. So would you do you got let's do the math. You get married in your like early 20s.

Katherine Hayes 4:44
I got married when I was 19.

Unknown Speaker 4:46
I was almost 20. Wow, I was young when I married but you have me beat.

Katherine Hayes 4:52
I've been listening to your podcast and surprisingly You talk a lot about marriage.

Scott Benner 4:58
Tries every day to ruin my life. Just like diabetes. I don't give up. A lot of people would have given up by now. Not me. Yeah, yeah. No, um, well I choose my wife was like 22 when we got married and even then I thought this is probably a mistake. But that was like 22 years ago at this point. Yeah. Okay, so 19 so it can do you mind talking about that for a second, even though it might not have anything to do with IBS? Or maybe it did? Did you find somebody who was just a good guy early on and you were like, okay, I shouldn't let go of a decent person. How that works.

Katherine Hayes 5:36
Yeah, definitely. I like I want to say a little bit is I've noticed that you've also interviewed a few different Mormons and I was like, I know you're Mormon even though he didn't say it. But um, but yeah, we we tend to marry a little bit earlier but yeah, I just found someone that was perfect and so I wasn't gonna gonna wait for anything very nice.

Scott Benner 6:02
So there's this funny thing that happens on the pocket so I don't set up if or not whether or not people use tax comps, I just whoever wants to be on the pious doesn't matter me. I don't set up what insulin pump there. I certainly don't set up whether or not they're Mormon. And but but you're right. There's been I've had an X an overabundance of Mormons, lesbian couples, and like somebody coming I don't know how that ends up happening. But it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. But I am proud of myself. Because for all of the Mormons that I've spoken to, I've never once asked about the magic underwear and I very much want.

Unknown Speaker 6:37
But I never been so comfortable. You wouldn't believe.

Scott Benner 6:43
So I didn't. If we end up calling this podcast episode, magic underwear. You're okay with that?

Unknown Speaker 6:49
I'm okay with that. Yeah,

Scott Benner 6:50
thank you. I will leave that to the people to Google on their own.

Unknown Speaker 6:54
Okay, but let's just say lds.org. That's where you look. Okay.

Scott Benner 7:00
Um, oh, gosh, who was running for president a few years ago?

Unknown Speaker 7:05
Mitt Romney Romney, and they called

Scott Benner 7:06
they hit him on it. And he he answered a little bit, right. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I was. I was like, that's, that's interesting, because I couldn't be somebody asked him I was like, that's fantastic. Anyway,

Katherine Hayes 7:17
Mormons get all kinds of weird questions, and we just try to roll with it.

Scott Benner 7:21
Well, you ruined basketball with that Sean Bradley guy about 20.

Unknown Speaker 7:24
I don't even don't ask me about that.

Scott Benner 7:26
I haven't forgiven Mormon since then. But

Unknown Speaker 7:30
I'm gonna go look it up when

Scott Benner 7:31
we're done me this giant spindly guy that couldn't play. And we drafted No, I and then he went off to do like, service overseas for a year when he came back. He couldn't play basketball. I was like, we got ripped off.

Katherine Hayes 7:44
Hey, but I'm certain there was someone in baseball recently that went on a mission. I can't remember where to like Brazil or something, came back and played baseball in the major leagues and is doing awesome. That's cool.

Scott Benner 7:57
We'll find out about that. All right. So listen, this is not the Mormon podcast. I know. We're gonna jump past that. But but good Anya, and I love that you said that the magic underwear was comfortable. And we're moving on now. So you are on the podcast for a specific reason. Right? So you reach down? Did you reach out over Instagram? You did, right? Mm hmm. Okay. And you told me what? Dancing for diabetes.com dancing the number for diabetes.com How did we start talking?

Katherine Hayes 8:30
Well, I like I had a series of realizations recently. Because, I mean, I my ANC has kind of always hung around seven and 7.2 around there. And unless I was pregnant, and then I was able to get it down. But I just I realized when I went to my last end of appointment that like there was that there was that same feeling I get the same feeling every time I go that this shame just washes over me like I'm not enough. And and I realized as I was listening to your podcasts that other people were feeling that too. And that I know that the only way to stop feeling that and to start progressing and doing better is to talk about it.

Scott Benner 9:27
You've had diabetes for a decade, but you're still young. And those oh my gosh, those kids have got to be a drain because I stopped it too because I was like another one I mean it's just I'm upset I have dogs at this point. Everything once my time serious

Katherine Hayes 9:43
I want a dog but I just know inside I can't do it.

Scott Benner 9:46
Oh my gosh, I would if I was you if you want a dog. Here's my advice. Trade to the kids for the dog. But yeah, but seriously, I love my dogs but they're there. Everything's a time Suck at some point, right? Like the dogs need your time and the kids need your house. And then diabetes needs your time

Katherine Hayes 10:07
and your attention. And it's like, I don't have enough attention to go around.

Scott Benner 10:10
Yeah, no, I definitely am. Plus, you're probably have to be pregnant again soon. So you should have a bat next to the bed. Do you just like, no way, buddy

Unknown Speaker 10:22
in my closet? Take a few steps to get there. That's hilarious.

Scott Benner 10:27
insulin pumps are not all the same. And that might be hard to believe. Because I mean, really, what is it, it's a thing that gives you insulin. It's basically just stopping you from having to inject. And it's giving you you know, control over your background. And so that's the two things in insulin pump spray, no injections, the ability to manipulate your back on insulin. So I mean, if that's the case, just take whichever one your doctor offers you, right? Don't even worry about don't think twice about. No, don't do that. Well, you know what I was kidding. Stop, you need the army pod. Because it's not the same as everyone else shirt allows you to make adjustments. And sure it gives you your insulin without injecting over and over again all day long, like every other insulin pump. But the thing that on the pod has is what it doesn't have. Interesting a little wordplay there. Beyond the pod doesn't have any tubes, it doesn't have a controller that you have to carry with you attached to a tube attached to your body that doesn't exist with the pod on the pod is self contained. It has a controller, but that controller is wireless, you only pick that up a few times a day to make adjustments, push a button, it speaks back to the pod wirelessly and you get your insulin, everything contained in the pod. So while on the surface, it might seem like an insulin pumps insulin pump, trust me, it's not. And to know for sure, all you need to do is go to my on the pod.com slash juice box. There, you can get a free, no obligation demo of the Omni pod, having a free demonstration pod sent to your house couldn't be easier. Go to the links in the show notes at Juicebox podcast.com. We're typing in the way I just told you, my Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox the beauty is you don't have to take my word for it, you can try it for yourself and decide. You just said something in a very specific way. Like you said, You're not enough. And do you have do you have that feeling in other aspects of your life? Or is it just really wrapped around the diabetes?

Katherine Hayes 12:24
I think we all like we're all experiencing it in in so many different aspects of our life, whether it's body image, or just like success, like how well you're doing at your job, or, or, or like self care, or diabetes, or a different illness or anything like that. We're all experiencing it so much. But I felt like I realized that for people with type one, we're experiencing that on another level. And it's like, Yeah, and it's like, it's like, we've got all these different measuring sticks of like how to compare ourselves to whoever else we see. Or whoever we think we should be. And diabetes is like another big fat measuring stick with like, comes with a one sees it comes with judgmental doctors that comes with so much. And, and then I was also thinking about because of you like to have a child with with type one is like another big fat measuring stick. Because, like it adds on to like how well we parent, like how well you're managing your child's diabetes and, and that there would just be so much shame associated with that. And like shame is not not good. It doesn't help you.

Scott Benner 13:47
Well, I, first of all, I think you're really brave for wanting to talk about it just in your private life, I think you're incredibly brave for being able to do it in front of other people. So this is going to help a ton of people. And I appreciate you coming on and doing

Unknown Speaker 14:00
I hope so

Scott Benner 14:01
I get through those moments with just blinding ignorance. I just don't listen or pay attention. Like there's moments when and I know that's not something everyone can do. But let me back up for a second. So you said something really interesting. Measuring sticks. And so that's something I struggled with when I started the podcast, right or how much you're going to share online or what you're going to say. Because your intention is to be is to be inspirational, aspirational, motivational, right like is to say like, Look, because I say it all the time. Like I am genuinely not a very, you know, not an overly smart person. I'm terrible at math. I prove it to you guys almost every week.

Katherine Hayes 14:38
And I just I told you exactly how long I've had diabetes. Listen,

Unknown Speaker 14:44
just so that you didn't have to I appreciate

Scott Benner 14:46
that. That's 27 minus 10. I'm pretty, pretty solid. But but but no. So like it's just but so like once you figure something out, do not share it because if I share it if I say hey, look at this graph, you put the answer In here, you do this, you do that, look how easy it stays flat. That's a lot of people who's who, who aren't you see that and go, Oh, my gosh, I can do this too, but and they, and they're motivated by it or inspired by it. And then some people might be inspired by it, but still have this aspect of, Oh, my gosh, I'm failing. And this person's doing it. And and why can I? And in so which would you rather I'm going to ask you as a person who's impacted that way? Would you prefer if a person like me didn't share it? And so you didn't feel like you weren't? like there wasn't a measuring stick? Or do you think that wouldn't stop it?

Katherine Hayes 15:41
No, I think I think we have to judge but we have to judge fairly. And so you take what someone tells you, and then you compare it to what you want to do. Like it's not, it's not like, this person has an A one C of six. And that means that I'm not enough, and I'm never going to be able to do it. You have to look at it. As it really is, which is not a judgment on who you are. But on what you're capable of. It's a lot like what um, I can't remember her name, but she was she did softball she was talking about

Unknown Speaker 16:18
what is it? Oh, the girl thing over something over outcome. Yeah. Molly FECKNER.

Scott Benner 16:23
Yeah, process over outcome

Katherine Hayes 16:25
process over outcome. Right. So you think about the process, you don't think about the outcome?

Scott Benner 16:30
Yeah. And by God, that's 100%. Right. Some people have a hard time doing that.

Katherine Hayes 16:36
I think that like the service that you provide, by doing the podcast is kind of twofold. Because in one way, you're you're giving like, good information that like I had never heard anywhere else from any doctor anything. And I, and I googled things and couldn't find anything. And, and that's really great. Like to help me try new things and get better agencies and stuff like that. But then at the same time, you're also providing this great emotional support and motivation for people to just try. That's right, because we're not, we're not doing great sometimes at just trying. And when we could be a lot more successful if we did,

Scott Benner 17:21
it's not it's not it's it's most of the time. It's not anyone's fault, though. Like, because look what you just said, No one told me this stuff, these things, these tools, right? And then all they said was, here's your goal, it was backwards. They didn't give you any process, they gave you all outcome. This is what you need to do you need to win the game. Well, what do I do with that bad? I can't tell you that. What's the ball for? I can't tell you that. Like what's gonna happen when I stand next to the diamond thing? I can't tell you that either. But you got to win. If you don't win, you're a loser. And that's ends up being with diabetes is when you don't get the tools. You know, like, you alluded to it, but no one ever explained to you that insulin doesn't work right away when you start when you put it on is that

Katherine Hayes 18:02
I think they told me 15 minutes, but I can't remember at what point they told me. Because I mean, it was like, I just, I like cried listening to Nicole's interview because we were both diagnosed at the same age. And so like, I totally, I could I could feel like exactly how she how she was feeling at that moment. where like, you don't know how to deal with things. But you, you don't think anyone else's responsibility. You don't think it's anyone else's responsibility, but your own right. And so and like, I went to an adult endocrinologist, like not a pediatric one. And the first few appointments, were just like, oh, you're a Wednesday 7.2. And then like, and just like, kind of like, I was, like, the beginning of that wash of shame. And then I think it was like my third or fourth appointment with him, where he like, sat me down and showed me some kind of graph of like, that showed me that if I didn't make it better, that I was gonna die. And it was like a lightful. I mean, in some ways, my brain was like, that's not the right way to talk to me. And I knew that it was wrong. But in other ways, it like really framed internally how I felt about everything.

Scott Benner 19:28
Winner die.

Katherine Hayes 19:29
Yeah. And, and also, and I didn't even realize until I started listening to the podcasts and thinking about like, all the new gadgets, we have now the Dexcom and pumps and stuff, and I was on injections. I had diabetes for like six months. And he was like, if you don't fix this, you're gonna die. And so I was just like, I felt like I was given the least quality care and the highest expectations possible. So, I mean, things have gotten so much better than that. Why? And I was in Canada. Did I already say that? I can't remember.

Unknown Speaker 20:06
If you were diagnosed? Yeah. And they're Mormon, my there are that's what you just,

Scott Benner 20:14
by the way, six times I've changed the title of this episode of my

Unknown Speaker 20:19
Canadian. Thank you, Canada. I mean,

Scott Benner 20:21
I heard I heard, I'm not enough. And I'm like, Oh, that's a good, that's a good title. And then you just said, there are Mormons in Canada. And I'm like Mormons are in Canada, too, is a good title. I don't

Unknown Speaker 20:32
know what to do. Fun fact, is that Mormons were outside. What?

Katherine Hayes 20:38
Where's the pliers in Utah. But there are more Mormons outside of the United States than inside.

Scott Benner 20:45
More Mormons back. There. I'm having too much fun. So well, geez, so Okay. What what was the impact of being told when or die? I'm not going to tell you how we did that.

Katherine Hayes 21:05
It was just constant failure. It was a, it was a state of constant failure, where I just like, I couldn't make it better, because I hadn't been given the tools. And so it was just, it was just, I can't, it was just always I can't do this. I can't fix it. And it was like that for years. And it was actually probably like that until I got pregnant the first time. So what

Scott Benner 21:27
what what was different then?

Katherine Hayes 21:30
I had moved to the states because my husband is American. And will actually in Canada, they This is so dumb. I don't know if they've changed it. But they told me that I couldn't get a pump until my control was better. And I was like, you know, the reason to get the pump is so your control is better, right? That's something

Scott Benner 21:52
people say they say that here to Roberts listening right now he was just mad. Some people get told six months on people tell until you understand it better. There's just I think that all of those statements are born out of luck. We don't really know how to tell you how to use the pump Really? Well.

Unknown Speaker 22:11
That could be it.

Scott Benner 22:12
Why don't you figure it out? And then we'll let you have it. So you don't have any questions for us? Yeah, that that is what I've boiled it down to believe it. I just think that they don't know. So they don't want you to have it, then ask them and have them have to tell you. I don't know. It's sort of like when parents yell at you when you ask him a question. And they're just like, shut up. And you're like,

Unknown Speaker 22:31
why you realize like a decade later,

Scott Benner 22:33
she's your mom just didn't understand what you were asking.

Unknown Speaker 22:36
Yeah, I do that with my own son.

Scott Benner 22:42
Don't ask mommy stupid questions,

Katherine Hayes 22:45
and comprehensible questions about lightsabers, and I just got no clue. I

Scott Benner 22:51
should have said I had moto in 11th grade. I wasn't there. That day leaves me. Yeah. Yeah, and comprehends what, listen, what's the question about the lightsaber? Let's see if we can cobble that together. Right. Do you remember?

Unknown Speaker 23:05
I think it was like, What does the lightsaber

Unknown Speaker 23:11
have? Like that? So

Unknown Speaker 23:13
there's a

Scott Benner 23:15
there's a crystal inside of it. it's specific to each Jedi. But please don't quote me on that. Because

Katherine Hayes 23:22
I think it was it might have even been weirder than that. And it was just like, impossible to answer.

Unknown Speaker 23:28
How old is he?

Unknown Speaker 23:30
He was probably four at the time, but a line about that

Scott Benner 23:32
easily. Just said magic.

Unknown Speaker 23:36
And yeah, I think I did. Yeah.

Scott Benner 23:39
A little man go away. Yeah. And we are you. You're in America now.

Katherine Hayes 23:44
No, wait, am I live? I live in Florida right now.

Scott Benner 23:49
That's way better than Canada.

Unknown Speaker 23:51
It's got a better weather. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 23:53
would say that. Right. Oh, good for you. So okay. Well, I'm trying to like frame my next thought. And, and it's not that easy for me, because I'm

Unknown Speaker 24:05
trying I can talk about pregnancy.

Scott Benner 24:07
Yeah. Well, I'm interested like when you got to the pregnancy? Was it the fact that there was another person counting on you is that one,

Katherine Hayes 24:15
that wasn't all of it, because I'd actually we were actually in Arizona at the time, and I had found this amazing physician's assistant, and I want to give her a little shout out her name is Beth prosti offski. And she was she saved my life like several times, and also my kids lives. But how she just she helps she, like part of it was just that she was so good at connecting and not blaming or shaming. And so I was able to go to her with these horrible blood sugars. And she just be like, okay, we're gonna fix this. Instead of Wow. No, like, you're gonna die. Like that, that

Scott Benner 25:03
we think that would be the at least the the very least you could expect from a doctor is not to look at you, right? Wow, you're gonna die. But let me see if I can help. What did what did she do to try to help you?

Katherine Hayes 25:15
like well I started seeing her every two weeks, which I loved. I wish I could do that now because I feel like that's really how you get better control is by really paying attention. And I felt like once every three months or once a month wasn't enough.

Scott Benner 25:32
What do you do? What did you do with her that you couldn't do on your own?

Katherine Hayes 25:36
Well, like she just helped me like, well, first she got me Dexcom right away, which was awesome. And she also got me on the pump. And she just like she made me less nervous about things. So that was good. But um, but she would like we'd put up the Dexcom results, and she'd go over it with me. And we just look at the trend, we'd lay the lines on top of each other, we'd see where I was high or low, we'd make adjustments she really taught me like how to take care of myself, like the stuff that I do for myself. Now she taught me how to do

Scott Benner 26:12
what's just say, I mean, it seems obvious as you're saying it right like that. That's what

Katherine Hayes 26:16
right, but like because I was diagnosed at 17 no one ever helped me with those things. They expected me to do it on my own.

Scott Benner 26:22
It's interesting, too, because you would think that at that age, the expectation from adults around you would be that you needed more help. Not not Oh, she does. She's old enough. We don't have to worry about especially from the doctor. I don't want to I don't know, I don't want to impugn anybody. But did your parents do that? Like what did they do? Did they do the old like I don't you go ahead and take care of it? Or did you seem too old to for them to get involved? Are they scared to kind of trample on your adulthood? Like how did that end up going?

Katherine Hayes 26:51
They were more emotional support. But But I think that was because at the time, like there was there were no, or they didn't know of any help for parents with children with type one. And so and like there weren't any diabetic camp, they went to carb counting classes with me, which now listening to your podcast, I realized this useless.

Unknown Speaker 27:15
I'm mad about that, too.

Scott Benner 27:17
So your parents were sort of like the parents in the stands that it's a little league game. Their kids like wearing their hat backwards picking flowers, like you're doing great, Billy. Like, no, you're not really helping him at all. But I do appreciate the support. It was tough. See, there, you just described people in the same exact situation as you motivated desires to help none have tools to be valuable. Mm hmm. You know, and and it's,

Katherine Hayes 27:45
and I think like with Nicole, she would have, she would have been motivated if she had some emotional support. Yeah, no, I just changes everything,

Scott Benner 27:54
right. And everybody's situation ends up being unique to them, because of who they are the doctor, they're lucky enough to bump into or not bump into the parents they're lucky enough to have or not have, whatever it ends up being is, is just sort of the, it's the soup you get thrown into. And a lot of times, it's just so interesting to me, when you say you, you're out in Arizona and you meet this new person. And and all they're doing for you is giving you some support, letting you lean on them a little bit, taking over a tiny bit of the responsibilities for understanding and then passing that information back to you. It really it really is just another it is just another form of parenting just within the disease. It's It's It's, it's no different than what you would do for for your child. And and and it's it's a it's at the core of what common decency is. And and you would think the very least you could expect from someone

Katherine Hayes 28:51
in the right you know, I felt like with with so many other windows that I had, it was like, Okay, do this for the for this entire month, because I'm not gonna see you just do this. And we'll see how it goes. Yeah, you know, and, and it doesn't Yeah, that doesn't work.

Scott Benner 29:08
Don't Don't test it this time. Don't correct that number. Just put the insulin in. And so when you stop and really think about that, what they're saying is, I'm going to give you this adjustment to make make it then come back and I'll test your Awan see again, and I'll see if my adjustment helped. That is not in any way valuable. Within the hours of the day or moments. Oh man, it's just it's an overall number. And what if the information they gave you just cause you to be low more frequently and your agency debt came down a little bit then when you went back? They'd be like, Oh, it's working.

Katherine Hayes 29:39
I have been like I've had times where I was low every morning for like, a week, because I was waiting for my appointment. Hello, it sucked probably in like the 50s and 40s.

Scott Benner 29:54
And so tell me right there. From from your perspective what stopped you from me? an adjustment on your own?

Katherine Hayes 30:02
Well, I didn't Well, it was probably like since I'd been put on the pump. And I didn't know that I could make changes on my own part of because of your because of your disclaimer, right? Like you need to talk to your doctor before making any changes. That's what I was stuck in.

Scott Benner 30:18
Okay. And you understand why I say that? Because I have to, because risky, right? Yes, I can't, I can't, I'm not a doctor. And I can't. And I'm not giving anybody medical advice

Katherine Hayes 30:33
that I did eventually, like I have learned over the years to just deal with it myself, because no one else is going to hold my hand. Right. But

Scott Benner 30:41
that's the exact right thing to do. It's just, we're stuck in this very interesting situation where I can't really come right out and say that, because I'm, I can't. And at the same time, if I don't share what's happening for us, and what's working for us, then, you know, then listen, let me put it this way. I spoke a few weeks ago at a jdrf event in front of probably 100 people. And I said to them at the very beginning of the thing. I said, Listen, I'm going to tell you what I do with my daughter. If you think any of it sounds like a good idea, you should go talk to a doctor because none of this is medical advice. It is absolutely positively 100% not medical advice. Of course, it's not medical advice. I'm not a doctor, but it is just my experience. Right? It is, it is what I've seen over and over again. Now, here's the difference. How do you know who to trust? How do you know who did who somebody did something once has absolutely no historical data to tell them that it's valuable doesn't know, you know, doesn't know if it's really going to work over and over again, but run to the internet and says it like how do you know the difference. And I hope that my decade were more at this point of time, just sharing in the space, like I hope that has built confidence with people. And because I think that's the only way to know who you can trust and who you can't trust. And at the same time, you still can't trust me. I'm not a doctor, I might say something that works great for my kid, that won't work for you. The last thing I said, when I was speaking before I started the jdrf event, as I said, if you hear anything here today, and go home and do it and kill your kid with it, I don't want to hear about it. You know, like, like, go talk to a doctor first. But at the same time, these are good, but

Unknown Speaker 32:25
also being cautious.

Scott Benner 32:26
Yes, you have to be a little responsible for yourself. Yeah, can't just, you can't just put yourself in a position where you're just like, well, that's up to them to tell me where that's up to this person, there has to be personal response,

Katherine Hayes 32:39
if you're going to make changes by yourself, you have to pay attention to it.

Scott Benner 32:44
Absolutely. You can't walk into a wall, break your nose and sue the builder for putting the wall there. Like you know, you need to you need to be a little responsible for yourself. And at the same time. If you're having, you know, more specifically with diabetes, if you're not having the successes that you want, or that they're even telling you to, you can't look back at them and go What's their fault, because at some point, you've gotten what you're going to get from them, you can't keep expecting, they're going to do more than their than they've shown you they're willing to do. It's not going to magically change your your know you're verbally abusive, father's not going to turn into a decent guy, 10 years now, if you just hold on long enough, you know, I mean, like you have to at some point, you have to see people, whether they're your doctor, or a friend or somebody in between, you have to see them for who they are, what they are, what they're willing to give you what they have to give you. And then if that's not enough, then you have to put it on yourself to go figure out what the right answer is. Or we're getting a position

Unknown Speaker 33:42
where you have to experiment.

Scott Benner 33:44
That's it. But that was not happening for you. Like like you, you really did get. And this is, of course very understandable. But you described yourself in the beginning as feeling like you're not enough. And that became a burden to you. It sounds like to me it sounds like that that was your overwhelming position, which was I did it just hit you when you went into the doctor's office quarterly or did you feel like that at home?

Katherine Hayes 34:13
I think it was like a an undercurrent all the time because I mean, anytime I tested my blood sugar, and it was 300 You know, it was like crap. Like, here I am again, but I'm

Scott Benner 34:27
not even I messed up just I've ended up in this place.

Katherine Hayes 34:32
It was both like, like so one thing that I'd like to just state so for everybody's information is that there's a difference between shame and guilt. And guilt is I did something bad and shame is I am bad. And so when you look at that blood sugar and it's not good part of that can be guilt and be like, Okay, what do I need to do differently and you're going to adapt and you're going to change and it's going To be better because of that, but shame is I suck. And I'm never going to be able to fix this. And that's where you get stuck. And I realized recently that when I feel shame, I freeze, and I just, I'm just immobilized. And so that was kind of what was happening.

Scott Benner 35:21
It's interesting, too, that you don't describe your shame, like depression. So this is not something, maybe I'm wrong, but is it you're not depressed about it? You're just you feel you're shameful about it? Right. Okay. And I think that's interesting and important to point out, because I think there are plenty of people who would go along the same path as you. And their, their brain chemistry might be a little more leaning towards becoming depressed about it. And it's interesting to hear a person who's not depressed, talk about similar impacts. You know what I mean? Like, it's Yes, it really is. Because you think, well, it makes sense that some people there, there may be depressed people to begin with, and they get diabetes, and it makes it worse. And that's understandable. And there's a course to help them. But the rest of us who aren't depressed never feel like that. But that's not a deep, that's totally not true. But it's easy to it's easy to believe that, that you're either in the camp, that it's understandable if this is hard for you, or in the camp, or it's not understandable if it's hard for you. And that's not the case, it's difficult for everyone in some way.

Katherine Hayes 36:31
There's actually research about shame, that shows that it's highly correlated with depression, and addiction and violence, and eating disorders. And I think like, the root is really saying that you need to talk about it.

Scott Benner 36:51
And I am interested in other aspects of your life that aren't diabetes. If your kid comes home with a bad grade or something like that, like do you feel ashamed of those things? Or is that not your default position on other things?

Katherine Hayes 37:04
Well, I think what was so interesting about like, the recent realization, and when I messaged you on Instagram was because I have been learning so much about it, and like how I respond to shame, but like that it was impacting my diabetes, and my self care in that regard. was such a surprise. It was like, like, I normally I'm not feeling same, like day to day, or I thought I wasn't. And then I just I went to the doctor and I listened to your podcast, and I was like, Oh, no, like hear it it. Does it. Awakening

Scott Benner 37:44
does it double back around and get you twice? Do you? Do you have a bad you know, a blood sugar you're not looking for that you don't want that feels bad to you. You feel ashamed about it, then the shame cripples you do then feel ashamed for not acting like can it like double down on you? When is the last time you wondered what your blood sugar was? Or what your child's was? Was it five minutes ago? 10 minutes ago? Was it in the last half an hour? Were you just thinking it now before I said this? Are you wondering now what it is? How wonderful would it be not to wonder anymore? Not to look across the room at somebody and think we should go get the meter. It's been an hour since he ate It's been three hours. I gave him that balls. You know, I'm going to eat the half an hour. I guess it's time for me to look at my blood sugar. Where's my meter? Let me poke a hole in my finger and find out what my blood sugar is. How would you like to never think that way again, ever. That is completely possible. Right now, with technology that exists today. All you need is the dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor. It's that simple. Make test trips a thing of the past. Go to dexcom.com slash juice box and get started today. It's that simple. No more finger sticks. In addition to no more finger sticks, there's a share feature. Which means that the person you love or yourself, no matter where you are in the world, someone you love can see what your blood sugar is doing. Not just what it is not just the number, but the direction it's moving and the speed it's moving in that direction. dexcom.com forward slash juice box with links in your show notes or Juicebox podcast.com Dexcom can bring you the comfort you deserve.

Can it like double down on you?

Katherine Hayes 39:53
It can when it's not that I'm not acting it's that I start eating Because I'm an emotional eater,

Scott Benner 40:02
and so then so then it then oh, I say so blood sugar goes higher than you want it to.

Katherine Hayes 40:08
I know like, man, I need to eat a chocolate bar.

Scott Benner 40:11
Shame they couldn't figure out how to do this. You know, it'll fix this chocolate. Yeah, blood. Blood sugar goes back up. And then it's like, yeah, and you're stuck in a cycle. Yeah, yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry. Okay, and so how long ago would you say? You realize what you just talked about? Like, how long? How long? Did you really understand the the kind of cycle of shame that you're stuck in? And how, how, what have you done so far about it?

Katherine Hayes 40:38
Well, I realized it with other things first, like, like body image, and even something as simple as like cleaning my house. And if my house was dirty, I felt like I was a loser. And, and how, like, none of that is really true. Like, like, the whole thing about shame is that it's a lie. And so I realized those things first, and I was working through those things. First, and then it was it was only like, the day that I messaged you that I had that realization,

Scott Benner 41:10
it really did hit you just then. So it's Yeah, it's been more recently. Yeah, I wish people knew, I wish, I wish you could see. But like, social media is such a great example using Instagram, as example, you if you have thousand people following on Instagram, and you put a picture up and 40 of them respond, it doesn't mean that only 40 of them saw it. And sometimes, and I don't know if this will work in the opposite way. Sometimes you'll see like girls will put up a picture of themselves. Like last year, this is me on the beach. And this year, it's me on the beach, and they're thinner this year than they were last year. I wish they knew how often I look and I go, I liked her better when she was in this then, like language, you don't mean like, and by the way, it doesn't matter when I liked her. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't matter which one of them I'm more attracted to than the other. I just think that you get a thought in your head, like, I'd be better thinner. And you don't realize that you were great the way you were. Yeah, I mean, like just maybe not to everybody but to somebody and definitely should, you know to you. And and if and if it's not. And if you're not happy with the the person from last year on the beach, it's not, it's not something to then worry what other people think like, it's just that that would be something for you. I mean, it would be no different than Gosh, I'm struggling for an example. I was terrible. I really was bad at algebra was a kid, you know. And I've now lived my entire life not being good at algebra. And it doesn't bother me. But if it's but I've never once felt bad about being not good. If I did, I might put more effort into understanding. But that would be for me, not for not for someone else. And I just don't know sometimes it doesn't get confused like the difference between what would make me feel like the person I mean to be and what it means to other people. Like if I lost weight, like that person, I'm talking about this random pretend person it would never occurred to me to put a picture up on somewhere to show people Hey, look, I've lost weight, because I don't care if they care or not. Just like just like the other just like yesterday. Oh my gosh, actually the first day of softball practice at Ardennes Middle School. We we messed up that day, nine different ways her spikes didn't fit in the morning. And I was like our bias spikes during the day. And I'll bring them over to the school side to like steal like an insert out of a sneaker and go to the shoe store with the to try to figure out how bigger to buy these shoes. Because, right? And then I get a text from a Don't forget to bring a hair tie. And I need my contact lenses. And I'm like, okay, so I bring all that stuff in. I go in the office of the school with two boxes of spikes, nine and a half and 10. I like to try both these on and we'll see which ones fit. My wife was like, Did people look at you? And I went, I don't know. Like, why would I know if they were like, I don't care. My daughter needs shoes. I don't care what other people think about this, you know, and so and so we By the way, it was the nine and a half they fit her crate and and she grabbed all of her stuff ran to the gym, I drove home, which is luckily not that far. And I get a text message where my contacts and I'm like, my pocket. And so I drove back to the school, and I pulled up on the curb and she kind of ran out of the gym and grabbed them and I went home and I have to be honest with you for whatever reason, or however my mind is wired. I never once was concerned with what other people would have thought of any of that. And I'm just lucky. Like I really and

Katherine Hayes 44:41
you have the added you have the added advantage that you were taking care of your child.

Scott Benner 44:46
Okay, okay, but I would have that And trust me, I would feel like that in any situation. And I didn't realize I used to say and I've even heard me say it on here probably in the past. Like that's just who I am like Maybe I grew up a certain way, whatever. But I never felt lucky about it till I started really talking to people on this podcast because I realized now that my inability to give a crap what other people think, or, or someone else's inability not to have to care, like they just care and they can't stop themselves. That's not something you can kind of take credit for. Like, that's not a decision you make. But I guess at some point, I believe that it was like, I believe that other people could just decide not to care what other people think, and do what's best for them. But I don't know that that's all

Katherine Hayes 45:36
I think you have to care about certain like about what certain people think like, not everybody's your critic, but the people that you care about. Those are the people that you need to, you need to care what they care about.

Scott Benner 45:48
I get Yeah, there has to be some back and forth. You can't Yeah, you can't let your hair grow down to your button, never wash it and your husband not like that very much. Just don't care what you think, buddy. Like cuz you've entered into a contract together, you're gonna live together, raise some children not have a dog, and stuff like that.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
No, one day.

Scott Benner 46:07
Don't get a dog. just telling, you will call me and five years back. I love this dog. But it's Yeah, it's killing me. And so, but, but, but I just it's very confusing. I think that's what this conversation is telling me is that it's not a set answer for anyone. But But how do you figure out what your answer is personally? Like? What? Because you're new to the six? So the understanding the shame, like what do you think you're gonna do about it? or what have you been doing?

Katherine Hayes 46:38
Well, I think like, the first thing is to understand that we all have an inherent worth. And that and like, because shame is this feeling like we're unworthy. And, and so like really believing in your own worth is important. And then also talking about it. And then also, just like transforming shame into guilt, because guilt is what really helps us change our behavior. And so that's what I've been trying to do. I've been so I don't have a Dexcom right now, because I lost my transmitter when we moved. And so I'm in the process of getting the G phi, which I'm so excited about. But I have been having to test my blood sugar like 10 1214 times a day to like, actually get a handle on it. And, and that is tough. And it takes a lot of focus, which I don't always have

Scott Benner 47:42
to remember to do it and serve. Yes, yeah. When you feel okay. There's doesn't feel like there's

Katherine Hayes 47:47
Oh, and but then the other thing is, like, I think two nights this week, I fell asleep without my pump on and woke up like 300 400 and I was like, No, I'm an animist pump. So I'm also trying to get the Omni pod

Scott Benner 48:04
I just want people to know that when you hear me read the ads and I'm like, you know, you can't you'll never take it off for your shower and forget to put it back I know

Katherine Hayes 48:10
I keep I keep thinking about that because it's like two times this week I fell asleep without it on. Oh, and I was like, you know, this wouldn't happen with the pot

Scott Benner 48:20
was this was that really the situation like did you get out of the shower and just forget to put it back on?

Katherine Hayes 48:25
Or I so my clip broke the clip that attaches it to usually my waistband broke and so I have to take it off if I'm not wearing something that I can clip it to. Or like no I can't I can't clip to anything so like sometimes when I get out of bed I just take it off if I have to like go go to the kids or something and get back into bed and forget to put

Scott Benner 48:53
it back on insulin for a while then while that's happy Oh yeah, before you forget to put it back on you don't have okay well listen, it's too late in the show for the Omni pod ad but if you didn't listen to the on the pad early call back and listen to it. You don't have to ever take the Omni pod off it's with you constantly and there's no disconnect disconnect things it's an issue and because you can forget because forgetting is listen to her times I start across the room and by the time I get to the other side I'm like why am I here?

Unknown Speaker 49:26
I forget what I walked over here for and so you only have two kids. Exactly. Exactly. Well

Scott Benner 49:31
you really should be ahead of me though because your your underwear is more magical than mine is but it's still you would think that that would give you some sort of a boost but it maybe apparently doesn't I think it I think it does it just doesn't affect the the insulin pump thing as well. Well. I think that's a good I hear I heard what you said I want you to explain that a little better though. Like you said you need if you feel shame, you have to throw in the shame and the guilt because you won't because guilt you can address is that was that the idea like you

Katherine Hayes 50:00
Yep. Because like I was saying, when I feel shame I freeze. And freezing doesn't do anyone any good. And so if I can transform that into just moving and trying,

Unknown Speaker 50:13
things are gonna get better. So the shame is more crip the shame is crippling. Oh, yeah, where the guilt just feels bad. Yeah, it feels bad, but it can help you see where you want to go? interesting way to think about it.

Katherine Hayes 50:29
I think that like that concept is something that's really misunderstood. Especially in the south, where I'm living right now. Because people kind of use the they think like, shame is gonna help someone change their behavior. And it doesn't.

Scott Benner 50:44
That's that's not a good tool.

Unknown Speaker 50:46
Yeah, it's horrible.

Scott Benner 50:47
You would make this better if you felt ashamed about it. Oh, yeah. Thanks, your thank God, I met you.

Katherine Hayes 50:53
My son's in kindergarten. And people are trying to use shame on him to get him to do his kindergarten work. And it's like, this is not work. Don't do this.

Scott Benner 51:03
No, that's definitely not valuable. And so you don't, so maybe not guilt, the way people are thinking about the word but more as something happened, I could have been in control of it. It's it's within my grasp to be in control of something like that. And so next time, if I make a better decision, it or a different decision, it should go differently, which should alleviate the issue. And and then I wouldn't feel badly that it didn't go well. Whereas, whereas shame is more like, just it just shuts you off. Right away. Yeah. So it goes back to it's probably more of a something it's burned into you from a younger age, I would think do you think it's

Katherine Hayes 51:48
I think it's an all of us.

Scott Benner 51:50
Yeah, no, I do to like the Where do you think it really activated? Do you think it was? Do you think it could have been before you were diagnosed, she really think it was right around the diagnosis and the way you were treated by the doctors at that time?

Unknown Speaker 52:01
Um,

Scott Benner 52:04
did your pair is my question. I'm trying not to ask you because I don't want to insult you. But did your parents like, shame you when you were a kid?

Unknown Speaker 52:12
I don't think so.

Scott Benner 52:14
It's very sarcastic. And there are times where I'm like, Did I just make him feel bad? Because it but then I look, and he's got such a good sense of humor. And I think he takes it and still instill, I told my son the other day, I said, here's the best piece of advice that I got when I was 19 or 20 that I didn't take soon enough in my life. I said, women don't like it. When you're sarcastic with them. They pretend they do. They laugh along. And they're like, aha, I'm like, but it hurts their feelings and don't do it. And so

Katherine Hayes 52:42
that's really good advice.

Scott Benner 52:43
Yeah. Like, I was like, they're trying really hard to be one of the guys, but they're not their girls. And, and that's okay, by the way, that's not just okay. It's, it's great. And, and just don't, don't do that one. I said, if you're doing that one, your girlfriend is just trying to make you feel better. And I was like, don't be sarcastic whether Just tell her how you feel. And tell her what you think about things be honest. Oh, and it's fine to joke. But for some reason, buddy, and I said, I don't know, I'm gonna have to be alive a couple hundred more years before I completely understand the whole thing. Sarcasm is not really good for the ladies you're with. And, and he was like, he's not he looked at me. I was like, I'm telling you, this is a good one. Take this one with you. It's, um, it just there's just some things we don't like, respect, respond to do you know, like, I know, for me, if somebody tells me to do something, you're can be fairly certain I'm gonna do the opposite. Like,

Katherine Hayes 53:39
I'm the same way

Scott Benner 53:42
about myself. And for the person who wrote me an email a couple weeks ago and said that my personal stories get in the way of other people talking. I don't care what you think they're.

Katherine Hayes 53:53
I disagree.

Scott Benner 53:55
It's still got to be a conversation. I can't come on and be like, so Catherine, you're ashamed, huh? I'll talk to you again in an hour at the end, like,

Unknown Speaker 54:03
go on and on and on about fame. No one would listen to that.

Scott Benner 54:06
I'll tell you what, by 20 minutes, and you'd be ashamed that you talk about a lot of luck. You probably shouldn't feel shame. Will so you're in a really interesting position, because you're at the discovery point, like you figured out kind of what's up. And you have an action plan for how to maybe get out of it. But you haven't been at it long enough to really be able to say, this is working for me or are you can you see it working? Please tell me you've been dancing for diabetes.com and that you've gone to their Facebook or their Instagram. you've checked out the incredible pictures of those adorable children. Are you saying You haven't? Are you the one you're the one person left? Come on? What are you doing? Dancing for? diabetes.com do it now?

Katherine Hayes 54:50
Not yet. I have I have an endo appointment this afternoon. So I'm really excited to see what's happened but to be honest, I've only been In my transformative period for a month, so I'm still going to have two months of probably really high a one C. And then my one month will bring it down a little bit.

Scott Benner 55:12
How about sugars by? No, you don't have your CGM right now, but how is your blood sugar spin?

Katherine Hayes 55:17
I think my average has been at times 140.

Scott Benner 55:21
It's pretty good. It's gonna probably put you right around one, like seven, or ish. I'm guessing

Katherine Hayes 55:27
I calculated what I thought it was going to be. And I think it's gonna be an eight.

Unknown Speaker 55:32
Okay. Well, I

Katherine Hayes 55:33
mean, that's, that's if I well, it probably will be less than that. I was assuming that my agency was really, really, really bad. Before. Okay. But I could have been wrong, I might have to spend a dramatic,

Scott Benner 55:47
dramatic, was just talking to somebody the other day in a podcast that we recorded. And I and we talked about how, how you have to avoid being dramatic in your life, but especially around diabetes, like it just it doesn't, it serves no good purpose to be dramatic about the about type one about blood sugar. It's just, it's just a way to pull your focus away from something that might actually help you and, and just distract, you know, yeah. Well, I want we're not up on an hour yet. But I want to know, like, I want I it occurred to me first to just wish you luck on this. But I wondered, instead of doing that, like what would what would help you do you think, succeed with this,

Katherine Hayes 56:32
I'm gonna keep listening to your podcast, because like I said, it, it offers like, really good, like technical advice, as well as just emotional support when you're talking about it and laughing and saying, me too,

Scott Benner 56:48
that's so powerful. Not feeling alone is really powerful. So you're so you're gonna get so what you need is, you need support, like kind of the way you got it in Arizona, from somebody who's like, I'm on your side. And I think this is valuable for you to hear that you can do this. And here's some more tools. Because I do think that really is the long and the short of it is that you need the right tools. You need to know how to use them. And you need to know that you're not alone. I think that just that stuff, just that those couple things are just incredibly valuable. And I'm glad, I'm glad you're getting it anywhere. It's nice that it's coming here, but it's still I'm just really thrilled.

Katherine Hayes 57:30
I honestly don't know of any other source for this. You know,

Scott Benner 57:36
I'm sure that I'm listening. I'm sure there is. It's not as fun as mine. But But still I but

Unknown Speaker 57:42
we need funds, everybody needs funds, there are blogs that people write that are that I'm sure that I would never get through. Because

Katherine Hayes 57:51
I just I don't want to like, sit down and read a blog about diabetes. In my spare time. Honestly,

Unknown Speaker 57:58
I think that what writing lack unless there's gonna be a lot of jokes,

Scott Benner 58:02
you will see, I was gonna say, I think what the writing lacks, because I've done the I've done the writing at length in the past. And it's when you write something, you can't hear someone's voice, and so that they're always very careful to be serious about it. And then by the time you get, like, Well, that was more depressing than anything else. Mm hmm. Maybe I can find myself in that story. But I think what talking like this allows, is for sidebars, for you to stop talking about the serious thing for a minute. And to joke about something else or talking about something else, I realized that that you're more of a, you know, a complete person than this story allows you to express and know and so I do appreciate that it that it strikes you this way. I really do. I hope you realize that. That you listening and anybody else listening gave me the motivation to keep doing it. And it's a it's very, it's very much a circle of life between the people listening and me making it. I know myself if if I would have made it and it would have been good. I could have kept going for a while if nobody was listening. But I needed it to reach more people to like so that it didn't Yeah, like not that helping one person is a waste of time. But it might be hard to imagine how much time it takes to make this podcast.

Katherine Hayes 59:29
Right. The more the more effort you put into it, the more feedback you need to just want to see going to see it

Scott Benner 59:35
come back. I joked earlier about the person who emailed me and didn't like that i interjected so much. But I read their email and I took it to heart. You don't I mean, and I've done that over and over again, this podcast. I just said it recently somebody else made me a better listener. And I'm a better listener. Now I understand things better because I'm not always just hearing key words from you and formulating my thought and moving on like I'm really trying to hear What you're saying? Because, and this has been especially helpful to me, because I don't feel shame the way you describe. And so around diabetes but but you talk about I'm like I am there are things about myself I'm ashamed about. It's it's just I don't give it any weight. And maybe I should a little bit maybe I should be a little more aware of that. And I wouldn't have gotten that if I didn't listen to you.

Katherine Hayes 1:00:26
Yeah, as long as as long as we just turn it into guilt instead of shame.

Scott Benner 1:00:31
And you don't mean that in a bad way. Right? You just know.

Katherine Hayes 1:00:34
So good. Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Because, cuz, I mean, we want to change, we don't want to stay exactly as we are. Now we want to get better. And oh, that was something that is so important to me is that I was reading in my journal from like, a few years ago. And I wrote, like, I want to be healthy. And like, I think that, like everybody, I'm pretty sure everybody, maybe everybody wants to be healthy. And we want to take care of ourselves. We want to have good a onesies, we want to be able to do these things. But for some reason, there's always there, there is something in the way, and we need to figure out how to get over that hurdle.

Scott Benner 1:01:18
Yeah, you have to remove I think that one thing that I I'm trying to do here is to remove the hurdles, I think there's already there's a ton of them, then we add more. It needs to be simplified, you know, and I was describing the other day about using insulin to somebody privately. And when I got done, I was like, I'm sorry, if I made that sound overly simplistic. I know you're struggling with it, I said, but in the end, it is really overly simplistic. You're just trying to balance the action of the insulin against the action of the carbs.

Katherine Hayes 1:01:51
I think I listened to that one.

Scott Benner 1:01:52
There's no more to it than that. Really. I mean, there's there is there's other outside influences. But those influences are just trying to influence your blood sugar, which in turn just need you to rebalance your insulin it really added more is is sort of just that. And and I want to expand a little later. And obviously, it's not going to be in this episode. But I think I've just realized too, that we're always talking about, you know, people like bumping and nudging insulin, but you can bump and nudge carbs to like there's, there's a you should be thinking about the carbohydrates the same way you're thinking about the insulin and vice versa. Not it's not a one sided affair. So I don't know, I just and listen, Kevin, we really are we're right up on an hour. But I want to thank you, because then you mentioned at the beginning, which probably won't make it in the podcast, that you have been sick for a while, and you've kind of got a you said, This isn't what my voice usually sounds. But you powered through very nicely, and you sounded fantastic. And I know that might not have been easy for you. So I really appreciate you doing this.

Unknown Speaker 1:02:59
thank thank you very much. Is

Scott Benner 1:03:00
there anything we didn't talk about that you wanted to mention?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:03
Um,

Katherine Hayes 1:03:07
I think just, there was one thing I the the antidote to shame, is empathy. And so that's what really, really we were really talking about is that we need to connect with each other, we need to have a strong diabetes community. And I think you're really contributing to that which I love. But when we, when we connect with each other, we just find the way to act, and to do the things that we need to do to be healthy. And I'm so grateful for that.

Scott Benner 1:03:38
You're very welcome. Do you have somebody in your life personally, that's doing that for you? Is your husband, have you explained how you feel your husband or somebody close?

Katherine Hayes 1:03:45
Yeah, he's got all these plans for like doing experiments on my blood. Like, he's like, okay, you're gonna you're gonna fast from this time to this time, and we're gonna see, like, what your basal rate does. And he's he's got all these plans, and he's been researching. So

Scott Benner 1:04:04
I'll tell him to take those kids out for a couple hours. That'll help you too. And

Unknown Speaker 1:04:08
I know you're pregnant. I know.

Scott Benner 1:04:12
You would think that underwear will protect you from that, but no, I guess, huh?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:15
No, it encouraged because it's so comfy. Yeah.

Katherine Hayes 1:04:22
And attractive.

Scott Benner 1:04:26
to you with everyone. Listen, at the end of this podcast, it's gonna end a second. First you go to my links and click on the Dexcom and the Omnipod links to try out the products. But then you've got to go Google. What should they Google to to get a picture?

Katherine Hayes 1:04:40
Well, it's on lds.org. And you can just type in Garmin.

Scott Benner 1:04:47
Alright, I'm doing it now

Unknown Speaker 1:04:48
called Garmin lbs.org.

Scott Benner 1:04:50
Which stands for what?

Unknown Speaker 1:04:52
Latter Day thing? Yeah, Latter Day Saints? Yeah, is it LDS D.

Scott Benner 1:04:59
I'm like lbs. Yeah. pounds. Hold on a second. Yeah. All right. And then I go to the search and I type in garments. Yeah. Second, Mormon underwear is the temple. Well, it better be coffee because it is not completely stylish. I'm just gonna say that right now. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:05:19
you got to see it on.

Scott Benner 1:05:22
gotta see it on. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, I know it's gonna take me a while but I'm gonna have to

Katherine Hayes 1:05:30
go down the rabbit hole. I

Scott Benner 1:05:31
have to break up with my wife find out more.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:33
Oh, no, no, you don't think?

Scott Benner 1:05:36
Oh, I don't want to do that. Okay. Catherine, thank you very, very much. Thank you, Dexcom and Omni pod. Thank you dancing for diabetes. appreciate all of your support. Please check them out. There's links at Juicebox podcast.com in the show notes. And I've said the link so many times, you must know them by now. dexcom.com Ford slash juice box, my omnipod.com Ford slash juice box and dancing for diabetes.com. I want to shout out Tyler real quick Tyler. Thanks for letting your mom come on the show last week and tell your story. I really appreciate that. And hey, everyone at the jdrf in southwest Ohio. I'm coming. I'll be there in a few days. We're going to talk about being bold with insulin. It's going to be great