#184 Jake Leach is Back
Scott Benner
TypeZero, Basal IQ and what's on the Horizon...
Dexcom's SVP of R&D returns to talk about Basal IQ (T-Slim), TypeZero and what's on the horizon for people living with type 1 diabetes.
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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.
Scott Benner 0:00
Hey, Hello friends. Welcome to Episode 184 of the Juicebox Podcast. Cast. Yeah, okay whenever we do it again. Hello and welcome to Episode 184 of the Juicebox Podcast On today's episode of the show, Jake Leach is returning you remember Jake from Dexcom, he came and talked a few months ago when g six came out. Jake is the Senior Vice President of Research and Development at Dexcom. Today Jake's back to talk about Basal iq and the T slim pump, the type one that boy, I gotta tell you people, I'm tired, but I'm just gonna keep going. The type zero acquisition, what they have coming up and a lot more in this briefer than you're normally used to episode of the podcast that was English. There we go.
Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, and to always consult a physician before making changes to your health care plan. This episode of the podcast is sponsored today by dancing for diabetes by Omni pod the tubeless insulin pump. And by dexcom, makers of the G six continuous glucose monitor. There'll be links mentioned during the show. Please make clicky on them. I started seeing news about the FDA clearance for for t slim and they're going to start using something they're calling Bayes like you and I started seeing people using it a little bit. I wondered. So I picked through seemed like it was a low suspend feature. And what it really made me start thinking about if I'm being honest, is I just started making me wonder about all your other partnerships, and where everything's headed. And this is still pretty early. So the first thing I wanted to ask you was, you know, what's the functionality on the T slim pump? And how does how does the dexcom data
Jake Leach 2:01
make it work? Sure, sure. Great. So the basal IQ is the first pump. That takes CGM data first commercial product takes dexcom CGM data and the insulin being delivered based on the CGM reading. So the product is called bazel. IQ. And what it does is it suspends insulin delivery, when it predicts that glucose is trending low. And it's one of the exciting things about it is it can very quickly turn insulin back on when it starts to see the change. The algorithm sees the change it wants to and in the CGM readings, it can turn the insulin back on it's not like a long period of suspension. So I think that's that's a nice feature of the product. It's the very first integration with tandem and G six. So they previously had the G five pump, which was a sensor augmented pump with T slim and now they can patients basically do a firmware upgrade to the pump to get the basal IQ functionality with G six. And so we're excited about that. Well, it was able to be went through the FDA very quickly for the review period. Because of all the things that he did. That was the I CGM standard, that g six being the only CGM out there with the integrated CGM designation by the FDA that part of that designation is all of the performance metrics for both center performance but also the connectivity. And so that is one of the things that aid is the approval of that product. So quickly, it was having that designation with GS six,
Scott Benner 3:44
and I'm not familiar with D slim, but so people have the pump now they just need a firmware upgrade to make this work. If they have it. Yeah,
Jake Leach 3:51
pretty depending on which pump they have. So tandem started, I don't even know the exact date. But last year, they started shipping, a pump that is capable of being firmware updated. So the first update it was available for it was the G five integration. So you get up to create and have G five connectivity to your pump. And now those same pumps can be updated with the basal IQ algorithm, and it will connect up to G six,
Scott Benner 4:19
that algorithm only works with the six not with the G five.
Jake Leach 4:22
Correct Yeah, that's my understanding. That's That's mine.
Scott Benner 4:26
And so there's but there's the other side of it doesn't exist, right? If my blood sugar starts to go up, it doesn't give me insulin, it's not a it's not a any kind of that kind of
Jake Leach 4:37
not not commercially, not yet. But there's they are working on a product that is called control IQ that has the type zero algorithm embedded in it. So the news recently Dexcom Dexcom acquired type zero the company is a Spent out of the University of Virginia, that was developing closed loop algorithm technology as well as technology for decision support with an area of diabetes. So we acquired that company recently, and are excited to work with tandem on implementation of the control IQ algorithm, generation one and then future generations as well.
Scott Benner 5:24
Is that type zero acquisition? Is there anything there you can really discuss I, I saw that come through. And I thought, well, there's got to be a great reason for that. And I just don't know if it's obvious to the rest of us yet.
Jake Leach 5:37
Yeah, there's a couple. There's a couple of things about about the acquisition that really made it makes sense, we've had a long history working with type zero, through all of their clinical trials, both the the work that was done in Virginia, as well as type zero itself. So we've been the sensory that they've used for all of that work, our different generations. So we worked really closely with the team. It's a very talented team, in both algorithm development and implementation, and also clinical work in area of closed loop. So we want to we wanted to that team to be part of the Dexcom team. So that was one aspect of it. The other aspect of it was the technology that they had developed, the control IQ algorithm is a very good insulin only algorithm that we're very interested in continuing to evolve that algorithm and making it available to our pump partners. And so tandems the first pump partner to be working with that, that algorithm. And we hope that others we know with many of our partners have their own algorithms, which we support that as well. This is another potential offering, that they could take advantage of. One of the things that Dexcom wanting to try and do is enable our pump partners with as much technology as we can, and to provide the integrated products. And this is just this is another option. We also have now a team that's closely tied to the University of Virginia, they can do, you know, we can influence work that's done there. And we're really excited about some of the future. Both of them work on the AP algorithm. So fine tuning, the first generation making a second generation third generation that continues to enhance what the algorithm can do, which is main main thing there's keep keep folks within their target glucose range. So we've got lots of exciting aspects to work on there. And then also our decision support strategy. And the different work we plan to do there, the types, your team will be assisting us with that as well.
Scott Benner 7:46
So is that in any way? Maybe you can say is that in any way an indication that you guys are getting into the insulin pump business? Or are you getting into the licensing of your algorithm to insulin pump company's business? Hey, the episode shorts, I'll make the ads even shorter. Art in turn 14 years old this summer, she's been using the Omni pod since she was four years old. And we are 100% on the team. It's kind of exciting. Sometimes when I see other pumps, like Oh, they have low suspend now or something like that. But on the pods on their way, they may not have been first, but I have a good feeling they're going to be the best. So I'm willing to wait until it's their time. In the meantime, you still get tubeless waterproof, swimming, showering, don't have to take it off while you're exercising, there's a lot of good in there. Plus, when you use the bowl with insulin ideas, and the stuff we talked about here on the podcast, in low suspend is nice. But my point is this, if you're using the T slim right on, I got no problems with you. But if you want to try a tubeless insulin pump, you really have to go to my on the pod.com forward slash juice box, or click on the links in the show notes and take a chance to win a free demo pod. It's absolutely free. It has no obligation attached to it. You can try it on it, see what you think doesn't hurt to try my omnipod.com forward slash juice box. We are right or die with Omni pod. And I think if you try it, you will be too. So is that in any way? And maybe you can't say is that in any way an indication that you guys are getting into the insulin pump business? Or are you getting into the licensing of your algorithm to insulin pump company's business?
Jake Leach 9:28
Yeah, we're not we're not we're not getting an insulin pump business. We're basically acquiring pieces and toolbox and developing them ourselves of things that can enable our partners. And so we look at it like it's a way for us to continue to support those partners with the integrations. And now we we have an algorithm that they can take advantage of this day. If they desire or we still did you couldn't support folks who have their own algorithms that they're developing, we still support as well. It's just another option.
Scott Benner 10:00
So you'll work with you'll work with a company, if you have an agreement doesn't matter if they're using someone else's algorithm or yours, but yours. Is there. Yours is there.
Jake Leach 10:08
Yeah, I just want to make it available.
Scott Benner 10:10
I am so interested to see where all that goes to, because that seems like the very beginnings of something that I don't completely grasp yet. So that is, it's incredibly exciting. And you you are how, how are you involved in that, like when you got that algorithm was like you got a new toy? Like, what part of your business life did that affect the most?
Jake Leach 10:32
Yeah, it's really exciting. It's it basically adds to the r&d team. So it's a an r&d development team that's been developing algorithms, they develop the control algorithm that that tandems using and so it's it's a group that's joined the Dexcom r&d team. So they're now now part of our team. And we've got a few different remote offices throughout the United States where we do research and development work. And so we just added this new one in Charlottesville. And so we're excited to have him on the team. And we're basically working through all the different projects that we can now enable them to work on Dexcom, we have quite we have quite a platform that we can bring to that team. And we can work together now and integration of their technology into our platform,
Scott Benner 11:19
right? Is there? Is there aspects of their work that's gonna just help the G six work on it better? I mean, are you gonna Can you fold that into the sensor technology? Is there stuff there as it is that uniquely discussion between the sensor and the pump and how it makes sense on decisions?
Jake Leach 11:37
Right now, it's focused on how, what we do with the glucose information we generate from the sensors. So that's what that the team's mainly focused on. But it does go quite a bit beyond just closed loop insulin delivery. There's a lot of aspects of their team and their capabilities that we can develop, along with some of the folks here at the corporate office here in San Diego that have been working on decision support algorithms. Now. It's basically just more more folks to solve some of the things we're looking at solving, which is how do you provide more context to the data, the glucose information that you're getting, and help make some of the decisions that have to be made every day as you're dealing with the disease. So it's just a augmenting our team with more capability. So we're very excited about it.
Scott Benner 12:25
That's excellent. I'm excited. Can you remind me? What pump companies do you have partnerships with right now? I'm t slim, obviously. But there's also are you working with Omni pod too?
Jake Leach 12:36
Yeah. So the the, what I can talk about is the partnerships that are public, we also have partnerships, they're not. So the ones that are public are obviously tandem. And then we Yes, we are working with insolate on the their horizon system, which is a closed loop system that they're they're working on to work on the integration of G six into that product, working closely to support both clinical trials and the product development. And then we're also working with Lilly, Lilly has a pump that they have in development, insulin pump, that we're doing both supporting clinical trials as well as development of the commercial product. And so check, would you like to lose your job and
Scott Benner 13:18
tell me about the ones that aren't public?
Jake Leach 13:22
I'd love to tell you, but I can't. But we do have other partners that are in development as well. And it's a great integrating technology that despite our non public,
Scott Benner 13:33
it's interesting. I've heard rumblings that on the pods working on bringing more choice to the community, but I don't know what that means. So I somehow feel like you do know what that means. But maybe you do. And maybe you don't. And again, I respect you, and I'm not looking for you to to get in trouble. I was just a, it's, it was tough when I heard that. I heard that kind of out in the world. And I was like, what does that mean? Does it mean like a different pump? Does it mean a different size pump? Is it like what is it because it wasn't? It didn't feel like dash or horizon talk to me. So I was I was doing a lot of routing into it. But I don't I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. And you know, I'm not asking you. I'm just saying it would be nice to break a story on the podcast once in a while. That's
Jake Leach 14:15
Yeah, I don't. I don't know.
Scott Benner 14:18
I can offer you a job editing a podcast. Jake, should you lose your job, but it pays he pays $45. Anyway, so Okay, so can you tell me a little more about sort of the nuts and bolts about maybe it's, I don't know how deeply it goes. But if you want to go deep and geeky, I'd love to hear about it. When the sensor reports first of all the sensors telling that pump we're going to be what 80 is that the number it cuts off at the blood sugar
Jake Leach 14:47
you know this this specific the specifics exactly how their algorithm works? either side? I mean, I've been told the details and I've gone through it, but I don't actually have it memorized. So I don't know off the top my head No, exactly. how this feature works, but I know that it's looking ahead in time. And when the glucose drops below a certain value, it will start suspending. And then as soon as it predicts it's going to go back above that value, it's turns the insulin back on. And it does that every five minutes when it gets to five minutes CGM reading, but exactly how long it's looking at the time and the threshold at which it does it. I don't. Don't recall. But that's
Scott Benner 15:25
interesting, though. So if if for some reason, let's say the CGM says hey, you know, in however amount of time from now you're going to be this blood sugar. So we think I think you have to suspend your insulin, right? I don't know here to avoid that from happening. And then five minutes later, when the next reading comes through, if somehow your blood sugars taken a leap up, you know, I don't know somebody ran around the corner, you'll boo and you got hit with a bunch of adrenaline, it just boom, turns out right back on.
Jake Leach 15:53
Yes, it does. It is one of the features where it can turn it back on rather quickly. I mean, obviously, there's some, you know, filtering guns that it doesn't turn, you know, doesn't falsely turn back on. But yeah, it's, it's, it's very quick to respond. I know, that's one of the unique aspects of the technology that when I first saw it, I was very interested in
Scott Benner 16:14
Okay, so let's maybe we can talk a little more in the abstract and and get away from the, what it does in the T slim. So when you're when you're developing for artificial pancreas. Does, does each pump company say to you, hey, we have different thresholds we think are right, or do you? Or does that not affect how your how your algorithm works? When we're talking about the type zero algorithm? Like, do you you don't, you don't have to adjust that algorithm to them, they adjust, they just take the information from it, and then do with it make the decisions that they they find to be reasonable? Is that how that goes?
Jake Leach 16:47
Yeah, exactly. So we provide the, the algorithm. And what they do is they we provide support for them to implement the algorithm on their device. So for example, on the tandem pump, the algorithm is embedded in the software of the pump. And so the type zero team worked with tandem to do that and embedded into the pump. And that's the for the control IQ product. The bazel iq product was a different algorithm that that tandem worked on. That's not part of the types here.
Scott Benner 17:22
It does that work happen all remotely? Or do you have people like in Massachusetts working with insulin as an example? Or do they all just meet virtually? Right now you can get a dexcom g six continuous glucose monitor for you or a loved one, it is incredibly simple to do you in a dexcom.com forward slash juice box and you're well on your way. A little bit later in the episode, I'm going to speak again about what Arden's a one C was on the first three months of G sex. And let me tell you that the accuracy has been spectacular for us. And it really translated to anyone say, Hey, wait a year, if you don't know the number, it's gonna shock you. It shocked me. Every time this company takes a leap forward, my daughter's health and welfare takes a leap right along with it. g six has been spectacular. g five was amazing. But you know, research and development, Jake's doing a really good job over there. Don't forget about the share and follow apps on Dexcom. They're available for Android or iPhone, your son, daughter, friend, wife, spouse, I don't know significant other, it could be anywhere, anywhere using their Dexcom. And you can see what their blood sugar is, remotely. That's how we make artists decisions for school lunches together. Because I can see your blood sugar all day, you know, dardennes blood sugars right now. 8282 was 110. We Pre-Bolus for lunch was 120 after lunch, and she had a crazy lunch. And so I just bumped a little brought it down again, chain right back to 82 dexcom.com. forward slash juice box, the links in your show notes. Thanks for listening to the podcast. Here we go more Jake Leach.
Jake Leach 19:06
We we do both. We with all of our pump partners tandem is located right here in San Diego and Southern California. So we it's a little easier because we can get right over there. But even with insolate in our other partners literally, we we do it virtually. But we also have folks flying back and forth quite often they visit us quite often our engineers fly back there. So it's it's a very integrated effort because you can imagine trying to integrate two different technologies. You need a lot of interface time between the teams. So we have teams and even governance structures set up to help manage the programs because it's, it's important to make sure everyone's on the same page when you're doing these integration. No, yeah, full virtual and lot lots on site.
Scott Benner 19:52
And so the the, the release dates that are you know, very obviously fluid that from all these companies, whatever their target Get dates are not released dates or target dates for getting their artificial pancreas stuff out into the world. That's not on you, you guys have done the work and provided the product. It's now in their hands to implement test get through the FDA and everything like that. Is that right?
Jake Leach 20:15
Yes, yeah, we we're at this point right now we support the integration. So as they determine exactly how the Bluetooth radio works with G six, or how they want to implement the algorithm, all those things, were basically in a support role, making sure that all of that is working the way it's supposed to. We also we do supplemental testing, to make sure their their systems are implemented the properly so that it's communicating the right information back and forth with the G six. And so yeah, we did there's we do have quite a bit of infrastructure internally that we've developed over time to support our number of partners. We knew early on that we wanted to support multiple insulin delivery partners and allow choice and so we built a r&d infrastructure to
Scott Benner 21:01
support that handles that that's amazing. Hey, speaking of the G sex, it's going really well for Arden, but the G sex and I can give you a great example. So when I interviewed you back when it came out, actually, you said, you said one thing that that rang true. Eventually I said is somebody going to hack this thing and figure out how to restart it. And you were like, it's the internet, someone will figure it out. And they did. incredibly popular posts on my blog. So thank you very much. But, but, but the thing about Arden is this, like people kept asking me, well, how does it work? How does it work? And my answer ended up being I don't like you can't ask me that. Now. It seems like it's great. But I won't know until I get her a one c back right. Like, are the decisions we're making for blood sugar's low or high bumping or up bumping her down? like is that place that it's telling me I'm keeping your blood sugar? Like, how accurate is that. And I want you to know that her clarity app, of course, at the moment doesn't just give you an A one c value what it thinks, but it does give you an average blood sugar that you can easily translate to an A one C. And it very closely match what our agency ended up being after three full months on G sex. That was 5.4. It was our lowest ever.
Jake Leach 22:12
Wow, congratulate
Scott Benner 22:13
No, thank you very much. Dude, it's the technology it the better it works. The easier what I do is, you know, so, you know, we just keep Arden in a real in a simple space, right? Like, we're alerted at 70 for the low. She gets alerted at 134 Hi, I get alerted at 124 Hi. And we live in a world where she we try very hard not to give her very much insulin like you know, she's sort of just like trying to keep your car in the lane and just bump it a little bit this way. bump it a little bit that way. But if you know if the G five was telling me her blood sugar was 120 when it was actually I don't know. 130 those 10 points make a difference. So even just a little ratcheting down on the accuracy. I mean, look what it did. You know I went from, I think her last couple of Awan C's were like 6158 like in that range. And now doing nothing differently. And keeping in mind by the way that she's I don't know. I don't know if there's a delicate way, but she has blossomed into womanhood Jake. So there's that extra issues to deal with five 5.4 no significant lows. Like really something I can't tell you how much I appreciate. It's amazing.
Jake Leach 23:29
Yeah, I'd love to hear stories like that. Yeah.
Scott Benner 23:33
I have the predictive alert. I don't see very often for the lows. But we don't get that low very often, but I did happen to see it last night after a long workout with softball. And then she kind of ate some Carvey stuff that I didn't get ahead of enough with a with a pre balls. And I did get I did get woken up I think around like two in the morning and it just said her blood sugar. I think what it was, I forget what it said like I forget what her blood sugar was. But it's like, you know, we think you're going to be 55 and 20 minutes. And I cut her bazel off for a little bit of time gave her a tiny bit of juice. She went right back up to like 88 and I went right back to sleep. It was it was amazing. So yeah, really cool. with with with that in mind, the idea that every time something gets better, life gets better. Is there anything on the horizon that you can tease right now? What are you guys working on? Hey guys dancing for diabetes.com Have you checked it out yet? It's dancing the number for diabetes.com It's a great organization helping children with diabetes through dance. And don't forget their 18th annual dancing for diabetes show is the November 10. If you're in the Florida area, click on that More Information link when you get to dancing for diabetes calm and find out more. They'd love to see you. Is there anything on the horizon that you can tease right now? What are you guys working on?
Jake Leach 24:57
Are you Yeah, we're well we're working on On, obviously quite a few insulin delivery integrations. And we're, yeah, we
Scott Benner 25:09
that's all you got.
Unknown Speaker 25:10
Yeah.
Jake Leach 25:13
You know what we got made an interesting time, Scott, I'm working on what we're going to talk about at the easd conference. And so I'm trying to remember what's public and what's not, like, talk about it. I know, I've actually, we've got, all I can say is we have a ton in the pipeline. That's been one of the exciting things about, you know, growing companies, the amount of investment we make in our development is continuing to grow. So we're very excited about all the things we're working on. But I can give you something more exciting in the near future. Yeah, next time we talk, let's schedule it around at some more, I can tell you some of our exciting new news. But yeah, as of right now, we're really focused on supporting g six. It's a big part of our development. We're also quite a bit of our teams working on the next generation platform, which will come after g six, this is the work with our partners at verily that that platform is going to be another leap in terms of convenience, size, comfort, and performance as well. So it's that's a that's a neck that's, you know, that's multiple years out. That's the next generation type of thing. But it is a for the r&d team. It's one of our major focuses, because it takes years to develop the technology, of course. Hey, I
Scott Benner 26:28
just a couple quick questions for from people on actually just one real quick to excuse me from people online. With that, I guess, speaking specifically about the T slim integration, there's a parent who wants to know if the follow app will ever show if the dexcom has suspended the insulin on the dexcom follow up like so the the scenario is their child is somewhere their blood sugar, you know, predicted to be low, the pumps suspended, but the parents somewhere looking at the blood sugar low not knowing if that actually happened or not.
Jake Leach 26:59
Yeah, it's it's something that we we definitely want to implement. We we are we want implement more information and follow particularly around glucose and insulin information. And we're just now to the point with our insulin partners that we're starting to get some of that real time insulin data. And so that we do want to put that into follow and give the follower that information because we recognize how important that is, you've got the glucose information, but you also don't have the other piece of the picture. So we do want to want to offer that sort of where we are where our infrastructure is capable of transferring that information to follow. So it's just about developing the connectivity with the pump partners. And the other insulin delivery partners. Okay,
Scott Benner 27:45
okay. My The second question I got was from a parent of a teen who said that they've done a bunch of research that says that teens hear lower tones easier, easier, more easily, while there's no English on that, but they hear lower tones better. And they were wondering if you might change or add some alerts that worked at a lower
Jake Leach 28:06
range. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I, I had I hadn't? I haven't seen that. But I will go look at it. We We definitely support we have a kind of the long list of alerts that are supported on the assume we're talking about the phone app. Yeah, here. And so yeah, we will definitely look into we haven't looked at that in a while in terms of changing those alert sounds. But it's a good, good suggestion. So we'll look at what's excellent.
Scott Benner 28:33
I can't thank you enough, Jake, for coming on. I don't want to take any more time. We had a little technical issue in the beginning. So we didn't get quite a half an hour like I was hoping for. But I really appreciate you doing this. And basically what I did everyone if you're listening is I saw some stuff happening online. I was like, I don't understand what's going on. I wish I knew more. And then I thought to myself, hey, I have a podcast, I can find out if I want to. So like I can just reach out and see if Jake will do this. So I really very much appreciate you coming on and doing this.
Jake Leach 29:01
And anytime guys. Explain it and
Scott Benner 29:03
I look forward to uh, to finding out what's next. Are we talking about this year still in 2018? or?
Jake Leach 29:09
Yeah, yeah, let's let's let's chat. Let's chat after the ESD conference. So that's that's, that's up another podcast for October.
Scott Benner 29:19
It sounds great. Alright, have a great day.
Jake Leach 29:21
Yeah, thanks, guys.
Scott Benner 29:23
Hey, I don't know how infrequent it is. But it's pretty rare that I record edit and post a show on the same day. But this is one today, September 11 2018. It was recorded, edited and is now free. You hope you enjoyed a little check in with Jake index calm. Hopefully there's something in there that gets you excited or something in there that helps you with what you're doing right now. I want to thank Dexcom of course on the pod and dancing for diabetes for sponsoring the Juicebox Podcast. Please go to dancing for diabetes.com my omnipod.com forward slash juicebox dexcom.com forward slash juice box. There are, of course links at Juicebox podcast.com. Or in the show notes of your podcast app. When you click on them, it does help the podcast, guys, I posted an episode between 180 and 181. That's a bonus episode. It's only like three minutes long and explains a giveaway. There's a $25, Amazon gift card for the winners. And all I'm asking you for you to do is tell me about what episodes of the podcast have been impactful to you and why. And I've been receiving some submissions, I think some people have been typing and sending in theirs. through email, there might be a little nervous to record, I don't know, but I just wanted you to hear the most recent one. So you had an idea of what people are doing and maybe give you a little motivation to do this.
Unknown Speaker 30:44
Hi, Scott. My name is Heather. I'm mom to a relatively newly diagnosed T one D we were diagnosed in May and it's September. I credit you and the blog with being the reason that my five month diagnosed type one diabetic went from over 14 a one c down to six in just four months. So thank you, I can't begin to thank you enough. I found your podcast in month two and have been trying to catch up on as many episodes as I can. The two that I found so far are particularly new in our world. Two that were I think really impactful. Kind of were Episode 151 with Nicole, who was diagnosed at 17 and didn't really start meaning that's
Scott Benner 31:30
all you have to do to enter guys just use the recorder on your cell phone, make a recording, send an email, it's all set out for you so you can understand what to do. Like I said in the bonus episodes, it's between 180 and 181. I think we're taking submissions for maybe another couple of weeks now it's over. I'm using information that everybody is sending to me to help new listeners kind of get into the podcast quickly. So your insight is incredibly invaluable. I'll see you next week.
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