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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, and welcome to Episode 514 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Hey, Erica Forsyth is back. You remember Erica, she's a licensed marriage and family therapist who herself has type one diabetes, actually for more than three decades. She specializes in working with people with diabetes, and their families and caregivers. Today, she and I are going to talk about a lot of interpersonal stuff, relationships, managing type one when you're married, or with a partner. What happens when one of you is a little better at it than the other? All kinds of different topics today, Erica has been on the show a number of times. So if you enjoy her, check out Episode 407-440-5479 and 473. You would have thought I would have done this in order but I didn't. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you live in California, and you'd like to hire Erica, you can do that. I'll put our contact information in the show notes at the end of the episode.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one, please check them out. They have a mission to elevate awareness of type one diabetes, raise funds to find a cure and inspire those with diabetes to thrive. They have a ton of programs, you can find out all about them at touched by type one.org. Now if you love the Facebook, they're there and Instagram just the same. So Instagram, Facebook, and touched by type one.org. At that link find out about their annual conference, their dance program. They have a beautiful program where they send out information to newly diagnosed people. They call that their D box program. You can go right now and ask for a D box. Listen, it's a great organization. I speak at their events every chance I get. I'm really excited to support them. Don't forget that their programs and services are for those living with the daily reality of type one diabetes. They offer a supportive community with many interactive programs and creative resources designed to empower one to thrive with T one day. If you're interested, there are links in your show notes and links at Juicebox Podcast comm your comms Erica? Hi, Erica. How are you? Hi, good morning. Doing well. How are you? You're doing well even though I ghosted you last time we were supposed to record. Yes, okay. We can still be friends. I'm apologizing in front of people. So that you know, I mean, because I've been told that my apologies do not seem sincere. And so I want to make sure that I'm being sincere. I just messed up. And actually my calendar messed up. But I also know it's important not to blame other things when you're apologizing. So it's my fault.

Unknown Speaker 3:18
Honestly,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:19
I accept your apology. Thank

Scott Benner 3:20
you. It's Apple's fault. If we're being clear. We have a couple of questions here that seem to go together. This one from Katie, how do I handle disagreements between caregivers over management approaches? And she's sort of got a secondary question here that I think goes right along with it. And she says, How do I handle when one person is better at managing than the other? So that seems like a real interpersonal question, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:50
Yes, well, I think when we're thinking about caregivers, and couples, tried to co parent and co manage their child's diabetes, I would first want to take a step back and assess how is your relationship doing in general, while the diabetes could be significant, interfering and how and how you're relating as a couple? Are there? Were there other issues prior to the diagnosis? I would want to assess you know, your communication, your emotional and physical intimacy? And maybe say Is it is it appropriate before diving into how to manage the diabetes? Is it appropriate to go and maybe do some therapy or some work around your basic kind of communication skills and understanding of how you relate to one another? So that would be my first step. But if you feel like you're in a good place, as in your in your relationship with your partner, and things are going well in, in other areas of your life, then I would look at that then dive into the type One and first maybe understand I think, in your in your world to Scott, that it's just it's pretty natural for one caregiver to kind of be the primary caregiver. And that happens because as we know, it takes a lot of time and consistent work and understanding of all the nuances of how your child's blood sugar goes up and down based on food and exercise and all the small intricacies around that. So it takes time and unless both caregivers from the beginning, are equally spending the same amount of time understanding all of that it's natural for one caregiver to to understand it better.

Unknown Speaker 5:44
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I

Scott Benner 5:47
want to ask is this what it's making me feel like is this what would be commonly put under the heading of correlation does not imply causation? The people, people don't really like, I hear what you're saying, like you've now introduced this new thing into your life. But it's not as if we're all wrong walking around in a perfect existence. And now we have a problem. We have a lot of little problems that many of us have learned how to ignore, not necessarily deal with. And now this thing's pushed to the to the forefront. It is not ignorable, right, you can't you can't look away from yours or your child's diabetes, the way you could look away from snoring spouse, or you know, something, you know, even more, you know, impactful is that is that what you're saying here is like, you kind of got to get your ducks in a row before you can tackle this thing.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:43
If you had the time, and we're able to do that, because I think if there are other underlying issues that you have either been ignoring, or you can still kind of function in that, you know, a normal, you know, quote, normal way, in a in a relationship. That's, that's one thing, right? Like, if you're, you're functioning, you're doing your work, maybe you're you're managing your children, whether you both are, you know, working in home or not are outside the house. But then yes, like this, this pace you can't ignore, you can only ignored, you know, you ignore the dishes ignored, like your responsibilities in the home. Yeah. And eventually, something will happen. But yes, you can't ignore this. But this could be this diagnosis could be the moment when you realize you know what, that we do need to deal with these other issues as well in our marriage or our relationship, so that we can then move forward together, whether that means one person is the primary caregiver of the type one or they you both are, but I would really encourage couples. For example, if they do come to work with me, we will work on the diabetes piece. But often I will encourage them to also go to either marital or relational therapy, to address kind of these other underlying issues.

Scott Benner 8:07
I'm going to say something that you might find crazy. But but that's amazing advice. And if anybody wants my opinion, go do that. But if you're not going to do it, or if you have a spouse who won't get involved, or you just say to yourself, I can't afford that. I know this is gonna sound crazy, but let's reverse engineer your, your understanding of the human mind. How do we put this into? How do we put this into a little tiny box that we can ignore? If we like, you know, I know that's wrong, but don't you think that's what's going to happen? In some cases, and we don't ever give people not you and me, but But in general, we give people great advice in the world, but it's not always followable for everybody, like how do we make it followable? For the people who don't have the time or the inclination? Who might be listening and saying, This isn't because I need to go to therapy. It's because my husband's a jerk. Like, like, you know, when you're thinking that way, like, Is there a Wait, wait, is this the wrong phase? It's like asking how to do drugs safely, although I've done an episode on that. So I guess maybe that is my question. Do you have anything? Like, are you just gonna, you can just say pass, but do you have thoughts on that?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:22
Yeah, no, I think I mean, I appreciate that question. Because in reality, yes, it does take time, it does take money. It does take if you're going to therapy, and you have multiple children, you have to get there's so many you don't have to get a babysitter. There's so many things to in order to do that and prioritize your relationship and in real life that sometimes is feels impossible. And so I understand that and I get it. So if we were to say, okay, that's not a reality for, you know, this family, then I would then say okay, what's the set? What's the next best thing that we can do, I would say a couple things. I think, if one person is managing, quote better or has a better understanding of how to manage the child's diabetes, then there needs to be maybe a good agreement, you know, within your household of Okay, this person is going to manage the day to day. But at the same time, the other partner has to come to at least a basic knowledge level. And maybe that means going and listening to your pro tip series or having, you know, like, a day in a life of being the kid, the primary caregiver, to understand not only the time and energy it takes to be, you know, watching the CGM all night long and not sleeping, and dealing with the lows and the highs. Knowing that an X like a soccer practice is going to affect your child's blood sugar may be different than the soccer game, like all these small things that you get to pick up on if you are the primary caregiver. And so

Scott Benner 11:04
if I don't want to cut you off, but the pressure yes plays such a big point like the like when you're in charge of keeping someone healthy. There is a there's a low degree of pressure that doesn't go away. If you don't know what you're doing. Like if you understand it, then the pressure comes and goes situationally, but when you don't understand that it feels constantly 24 seven, like you're killing somebody. And yeah, that's not obvious to the other person who's not involved in the management. I mean, I have to say, for me, that's been the biggest leap is to get across to like when you do such a good job, but that came out wrong, but I do a really good job taking care of art and sculpture, so much so that she probably doesn't, and hopefully never will feel the full possibility of impact from diabetes. And because of that her perspective is different. My wife's perspective is different if they lived in a house where her blood sugar's were ping ponging all over the place for the last 12 years, then they'd see it differently, too. But it I maybe it's possible, I make it look easy sometimes. But it doesn't make it less impactful on me. And then you can't get that I don't want to call it respect. But you can't get that understanding from onlookers. I don't know if all that

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:21
yes, yes. So you because you're doing it. So well. And and I hear your concern, saying that like you are you're doing a great job, right? And so then you don't nobody else is experiencing the side effects or the consequences of of the, you know, the roller coasters, etc. And so then people might think, or your wife might suspect, oh, it's not that hard, right. But in reality, we know that the primary caregiver experiences burnout, for sure. All of the things that we've talked about in the other episodes of distress, the burnout, the resentment of I am working hard to keep our child alive, and my partner doesn't understand how hard it is. And then that leads to resentment 100% of the time. So while it might not work in a lot of families to have this, like, equitable, an equal amount of time in terms of CO managing, there does need to be some level of understanding, which will lead to the respect and the gratitude of what it takes to do what you're doing,

Scott Benner 13:32
and the knowledge to know when not to get on what's happening. Like, I don't really know a better way to say that, like, you know what I mean, like, if I'm in charge of the checkbook, Erica and you have nothing to do with it. You don't look over my shoulder every once in a while and go, what are you doing here is like, Look, if you want to be involved in the checkbook, be involved in the checkbook. But, you know, we've been a lot, you know, we've been together a long time here, everything's fine. All the bills are paid God little savings going. I'm doing a good job. Like it's, it's, it would be like if I showed up at your office, and stood in the corner, and 15 minutes into a session said, Hey, Eric, are you sure that's the question you want to ask here? Like, you'd be like, Who are you in this situation? You don't know what's happening. It's, it's can be very difficult not to respond. Like you've been attacked, even if maybe that person wasn't attacking you. Maybe they were just like, interested or thought they had a good idea to add or something like that. But I mean, maybe it's just maybe I'm just letting too much of myself out here. But, but but you know what I mean, you can feel really, like somebody's coming after you in that situation.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:32
Right? And so then I would say, okay, going back to Okay, how are you communicating as a couple? What are the what are you leading with? What is your tone? How are the questions being asked? Is that why did you Why did you Bolus this amount for that food in that kind of tone? Or is it Gosh, I'm really curious. So I know for next time, can you help me understand why you gave this amount for that food?

Scott Benner 14:55
Those those little sentences are so incredibly important in personal communication, especially amongst people who've been around each other for a long time. And because you just get the feeling like the other person knows what I mean, but they don't, it doesn't matter how long you've been together, it's a very nice way to start a conversation by saying, Hey, I was wondering if you could explain to me what just happened here, because I don't understand it. And I would like to, like you have to put yourself in a slightly, I don't know it, like, professionally speaking, if it's a dominant, and sub and sub position, but you have to be kind of in the sub position for a second, like I find, listen, I'm pretty good at talking to people. And I think that one of the ways you talk to people well is by making them feel comfortable, and letting them feel like they can get their thoughts out. And when you come at somebody, and you're very demanding, that does not ever happen that way. And so I think, even when you've known somebody for a very long time, those words that might feel like the polite words you say, for the guy at the gas station really should be used between people who know each other as well.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 16:04
Yes, yes, I think tone has everything to do with, you know, how we receive, deliver and receive messages. Obviously, body language, and words are important too. But tone is extremely important. And so an understanding that if the, if you're the non primary caregiver, there needs to be that level of understanding that my my partner is exhausted, because they probably aren't sleeping well at all. And they are constantly under this level of stress of what you know, trying to keep your child alive. But you aren't going to get that or you won't be able to come from that position of empathy, unless you have this basic level of knowledge and understanding. And so I think going back to that point of how can you integrate your partner into the CO management, or at least common understanding of what it means to manage the diabetes. And I think, you know, some some families that I've worked with, they will like, if one caregiver is away for the weekend, then the other person is forced to learn, right? And trial by fire, maybe the other caregivers helping via text and call, Okay, I see the arrow going this way, let's do this. But slowly allowing, you know, the other caregiver to experience what it's like, and maybe maybe the other caregiver is still the primary one, but to allow for these opportunities for both the primary caregiver to get sort of a break, and the other caregiver to experience Wow, that was really challenging to build in that empathy and understanding. The the other point around that the Yeah, so the tone, to build empathy, and understanding. I'll pause there.

Scott Benner 18:00
No, I this is, you know, because we talked before we started recording, but this is about to happen to me, like I'm gonna have my wife managed remotely for six days or so while I'm gone somewhere. And I'm reminding myself as much as I'm reminding other people, but I wonder too, like, is it folly to like to say to the person who's in that situation? Now, here's another job for you explain that to your spouse, how for them how they need to, you know, be that to make this successful? Like, maybe you should just force them to listen to this and be like, Listen, just listen to that. That's what I mean to say to you, but I don't have time. Maybe like I, because when do you run out of time, like because this isn't your only thing. Like it's funny what we just explained, as a person who was a stay at home dad for 20 years, you take out the word diabetes and put into housework. And we just had the same exact conversation, honestly, like I did things around the house that people didn't appreciate, and everyone who does the dishes, or the laundry or, you know, sweeps under the bed. You know, they understand that, you know, when when your spouse isn't sneezing at night, because there's not a big dust bunny under the bed. Nobody stops to thank you for that. They don't even know what happened. It's just it's the idea of, of stopping yourself from taking people for granted, I guess, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:24
Yes. And, and I think it goes back to get the time and the energy of you know, oftentimes caregivers will tell me like, well, it's just easier for me to do it. So I'm just gonna keep doing it. But we know that that's you can't do that forever. We also know that diabetes is going to go away. And so you're going to continue to come, you know, experienced that pattern of resentment and burnout if they're if you aren't getting any kind of support or understanding or gratitude for what you are doing. And so I mean, if you're if your partner was open to either listening to the episodes that, you know, the pro tips or the basic diabetes understanding, I know for a lot of families upon diagnosis, because when other the other caregiver either has to work or take care of the other kids. So from the get go, it is often one caregiver and the child in the hospital, and learning what it means, you know, going through all of the seminars and classes and education. And so even from, you know, day one, the one caregiver is going to know and understand more than the other because of just of circumstances and not because they're trying to be cruel. Yeah. And so, but then the then the patterns, you know, continue. So I think it's never too late to ask your your partner to say, Gosh, I'm, we're experiencing this, this cycle of, you know, you either you either criticize the way I'm doing it, but you don't really understand how to do it, or I'm feeling resentful, because you don't know how or I'm so exhausted and stressed out that I have no time to connect with my caregiver, because I just need to sleep when I can to say all those things out loud when you're not in the midst of an argument, and then ask for like, Okay, how can we not necessarily fix this, but address this, and maybe it is having some understanding, maybe it is allowing the other caregiver to experience, you know, taking the kids to the park, or the you know, with your child to diabetes to the park, having these small moments of like, wow, that was really scary. When I noticed my child was going below and I didn't have anything to, to bring it up, bring that, you know, we'd have any snacks. So all these things, allowing the caring other caregiver to experience to hopefully build in that empathy, which is what we think what you really want is like empathy, and understanding and gratitude as the primary caregiver from from experience,

Scott Benner 22:01
may I lay down just a little layer of blue collar advice here. And I know this is not going to be politically correct. But if you can't get all that done, coming as a straight guy, from my opinion, if you just said something like if you understood extended Bolus is better, I'd have more energy for sex, that probably moves most guys in the direction you want to go.

Unknown Speaker 22:24
That's, that's,

Scott Benner 22:25
that's what I do. Bottom line, bottom line, yeah, you make me a girl. That's how I attack this. I'm like, Listen, you don't what you don't understand is, and then I say, whatever, you know, floats the person's boat. On the other side. I say there'd be more of that. If there was more of this from you. I think that's good. I think that puts most guys right back in line, to be perfectly honest. And by the way, men who aren't the best advice of this whole episode? Yeah. And men who are swayed by that argument, I don't understand you at all. What do you think of that? I once drove to Delaware to have sex, you understand? I didn't live in Delaware. I was like, wait, what's gonna happen? If I come there? Oh,

Unknown Speaker 23:07
I'm on my way.

Scott Benner 23:09
We just get in the car, take a shower. Here I go, I'll be there in four. Yeah, you got to understand how to move the chess pieces around. But it is such a huge problem. like not to make light of it. But I do want to take I do want to like walk across the courtroom and take the other side for a second. If you're the person who doesn't get it. I always want to say that, you know, because I see people online are always like, my spouse doesn't understand that. And they always add, they always act like they're, it's on purpose. They don't get involved on purpose. But I wonder how many times those people aren't scared out of their minds, or like afraid to do the wrong thing?

You know what I mean? I'm also there are a lot of people who are afraid to act until they're sure. And I know that seems like the same idea. But it's not like there are some people who can't make an action until they have all the answers before they go. And now you're making this a health issue around a child, probably I'm guessing a child that this person loves a lot. And they're probably like, I don't know what to do. I mean, you're keeping her alive, I'll let me stay out of it. And then, and then the human part gets involved where you do realize this is easier not to be involved in this. And that's where it starts to go wrong, when you willfully stay out of it is different than when you stay out of it because you're afraid. There's a difference there, I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:34
think. Yes. I appreciate that perspective, because I think maybe what could be helpful in that if that is the case, to sit down with your partner and say, can you help me understand why? Like, maybe you've gotten into these patterns and roles, right? But you're realizing it's not sustainable. And to say like have your partner or give your partner an opportunity to just They all have those things to say, Gosh, and I see they're scared, because I don't know how. And I'm fearful of making a mistake. And you are much better at it than I would ever be. And I don't, I don't want to try. I don't want to mess it up. And I think that would be helpful to for your, for the primary caregiver to to hear that and maybe have some empathy to have like, okay, maybe I've just done it all. And it's easier for me to do it. But you know, I'm experiencing all these side effects. But my my partner may want to may want to try, but there's fear or there's Yeah, it didn't know. And then that fear has led to Well, I just, I don't I don't want to do it. Well, now what about any any? Yeah, go ahead. And

Scott Benner 25:50
what about in a more? What's the word? What about when your partner is actually a bad actor? There's a question here, I'm not gonna attach the person's name to it. But it says, What if the other parent pretends that you don't exist will not help you or give advice without making you feel like a horrible parent that is killing their child, I guess what I'd like to know is how to get this person to help me with how they manage our son, which he seems the when he has so much resentment for me that he can't get over it or put it aside. So this sounds like a scenario where one person wants to help, does not have the tools they need. And then the other person is just is just crushing them every time they come at them. You don't know what you're doing, you're gonna kill them. Like that kind of thing. And I have to tell you, this message is not gender the way you would expect it today. So So what if you've got a bad actor in the situation? Like, what's the I mean, that's a bigger difference, like, how do you fix it? And I guess, when do you say, the rest of my relationship? I'm happy with this part. I'm not happy with I guess not even just around diabetes, like At what point you just, what's what what I want to say like, what do you When do you just accept people's flocks? So there's two questions.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:14
Yeah. And, and this question, yeah, and I understand that. So the one one parent has the understanding of how to do it. And the other parent wants to know how, but when the when this parent tries, the other, the primary caregiver, kind of shames and ridicules and B raids his other parent in terms of like, you're not, you're doing a terrible job, you're going to kill our child,

Scott Benner 27:44
is it a power? Is that a power move?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 27:48
It feels, I mean, from this particular question, it feels like there might be some other issues going on. In in the marriage, I'm not I can, I don't know, this scenario, I don't know this person. But it feels like if there's so much power, and there's shame, and there's. And there's obviously there's resentment here, because the one parent knows how to do it well, and is angry, it feels like there's a lot of anger to underneath this of, you don't know how to do it. And if whenever you try, you mess it up. And so it feels like there's either some, you know, on, on either felt or expressed anger or sadness, even around, not to make it all about the sadness, but it feels like there's some other underlying emotions underneath this. And I think if this happens, and I've written, I do read a lot on you know, on the, the Facebook group that these, these kinds of things happen. And if it's to the point where it's so contentious all the time of whenever one parent wants to try to help, I would highly, highly encourage, you know, marital or relational therapy, because I feel like it might be difficult to get to this to the issue of the diabetes unless there's some rebuilt like there's, there's obviously a violation of either trust or love or connection. It feels

Scott Benner 29:20
like the one person is almost gleeful that there's something to to come at the other person with, like, oh, now I've a really good reason to call them names and tell them their bad stuff. There's, I mean, do you get that vibe from that a little bit like, Oh, just it's an opportunity. Like, I'm a bad person, I'm doing bad things to my spouse. And this is a great opportunity for me to do that. Like I don't know why someone would want to do that. But if you wanted to, honestly, your don't know how to handle our kids diabetes is a great way to make somebody feel terrible. Yeah, yes. Usually, I think the way I think of them, huh? I don't think you think about people the way I do.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:05
Well, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. And usually when we're lashing out, and we are shaming another person, because they aren't doing it the way we think we should do things, then I feel like there's some other some something else is underneath that

Scott Benner 30:21
Healthy People don't do that to each other. What's that? How a mentally healthy people don't do that to each other? Is that right? Or no,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:30
I would say maybe people who are necessarily struggling with this, when you are communicating in this, in our you know, with with type one, your one person is going to be fatigued, and unstressed. And so it's hard to operate and communicate and be mindful of your tone and all that. So I think acknowledging that, but not excusing certain behaviors, I think when you are at this kind of crisis moment of we cannot connect on how to manage our child's type one, to have to sit down and try to find moments when you aren't actually heated, to be able to share your experience of how you're how you're trying to manage the type one, when you're not trying to manage the type one, if that makes sense.

Scott Benner 31:18
Yeah, you know, when I see that become problematic. So first of all, I'm gonna flip flop here for a second. I, I say all the time that you can't let yourself get exhausted because you do not notice it happen. And the detriments from being exhausted, are many they're varied. They go through your life, and you do not know you're doing it. Sometimes you are genuinely lashing out at people and not even aware that you're doing it. But I've always been, that's the thought I've always had in the back of my head too. Like, this isn't a conversation for now, then the problem becomes, when does that conversation? Yeah, and you know, like, and you think, oh, at the end of the day, you mean, at the end of the day, Erica, when you get in bed, and we're both reminded we're not gonna have sex with each other, because we're so pissed, because that's not a fun time to talk. And then you sit there quietly, and you're like, I'm gonna bring it up, this is a good time. And then you hear the CGM or something like that. And I get I get just finding. This isn't just around this idea. But time out time, like pause time is super important. And incredibly difficult to create.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:23
I think yes. Yeah. So, so challenging. But you, I feel like you, if you want to make changes and how you communicate and relate with your partner, then you have to make certain sacrifices and prioritize. So maybe it's okay, we're not going to carve out an hour, we're going to carve out 10 minutes, and we're gonna agree to the date and time. And then you're both prepared. And whether maybe you put your whatever you need to do to prioritize that 10 minutes or 20 minutes. And follow through on that. Because then, if you aren't making these priorities, these times are these moments to connect about the issues that are going to continue. Yeah, then the issues are going to continue. See, I think that you both need to be on the same page. Yeah, I

Scott Benner 33:14
think that's the most important thing that's been said so far, is that that you're not going to get to any of this inside of another situation. And you really are going to, like, you know how they say, you know, what do they say save the first 10% of your income bank before you pay your bills, pay yourself before you pay your bills? I think there there's something to that, like, you know, you can look at each other and go look, we're obviously arguing a lot, things aren't going well. You're yelling at me, I'm yelling at you. Maybe you're not yelling, maybe like, Look, I'm mad at you, I don't even tell you. But we we're not going to be able to do that. Now. We literally need to put on the calendar. A space and time. This is when we do it. And we sit down and just agree that you can't let anger into this moment. You can't bring your grudges in here. I'm gonna say how I feel you say how you feel. And the goal has to be for us to find middle ground. And and not to pile one issue on top. And I would think one issue at a time. Like don't go in with a list. You don't I mean? Am I wrong? Like there's times when I say things and I'm like, at some point she's gonna tell me I'm an idiot. Is this the moment?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:21
No, I think yes. Don't go into a list and stay in the emotion as best you can around what you're experiencing if I mean if you were trying to work on connection, because if you don't feel connected, it's hard to problem solve. And so, you know, I feel I feel exhausted, I feel resentful, or I feel like I doing it all by myself. And then the other person is like, Well, I I don't know how or I feel fearful or I feel like you never get them to give me a chance. If you feel like you can't get through those types of conversations, then that would be another indicator of like, maybe We need to go back to and not unlike not in cats, you know, therapy, but maybe it's like two or three, check in sessions with a being someone

Scott Benner 35:09
moderated conversations, right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:11
moderating helps you communicate and helps you rephrase certain things, being mindful of your tone your butt, all those things. So I think just understanding when I'm when I'm suggesting marital therapy, it's not necessarily, you know, go and do try and fix all the things, it's just maybe going back to some a couple sessions of basic communication to help rebuild that connection and kind of rebuild that trust. Yeah, we don't you guys are in it together. Yeah.

Scott Benner 35:39
Not everybody needs to be torn down to the bad thing that happened to him when they were six and a half to get to it. Right, right. We're not, you don't need everybody to go to see doctor, it doesn't have to be Freudian psychology, I guess psychiatry is saying, right, right. Go to therapy and, and have somebody there who hears who can hear in your sentence that you're about to stirrups and stop you go, right. Yes,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 36:01
the objective objective listener who can help guide the conversation. And, and I think that could be really beneficial. But going back to, you know, your the first point was, you know, well, we just can't we don't do enough time to that, then maybe start smaller, start with the 10 minutes on your calendar. And then and be respectful of the time. So okay, 10 minutes is done, or whatever the time that you've allotted, and then schedule out the next time and knowing that you're not going to fix everything, that first connection, you know, that first calendered conversation,

Scott Benner 36:36
I ask you a question, that it's a start, that might not feel like it fits here, but in my mind, it does a little bit. Just generally speaking, gender broken out over gender lines? Do we have different expectations? Like, are men's general expectations of a partner different than that of a woman's expectations of a partner? And is that how a person can be doing what they feel is the best they can? And it can somehow ring hollow to the other side? Because it's not what you're not doing the thing that the other person is actually looking for? And there's no way to know that. Because you're doing the thing that if somebody did it for you, you'd be thrilled about that was convoluted, but did you understand what I meant?

Unknown Speaker 37:20
Right? Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:21
But I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't break it down by gender, I would break it down by personality by how you were raised. Maybe you're you're you're making choices and doing things by your own personal experience. And And oftentimes, we either feel like how how you were raised is the right way, or you feel like how you were raised is the wrong way. And you're going to do the opposite, right? But I feel like we often we function out of that. Society, even break it down by gender, but

Scott Benner 37:52
Well, okay, I was wrong. See, it's good. I this is why I like you, because you call me out. But so but the idea of like, I'm doing the best I can, and oh my god, I wish someone would treat me this way. And then you don't get it back. Like meaning like you're like, oh, it didn't land. You know what I mean? Like the person I was trying to help is just completely left hollow from this. I don't know what to do next. And even it's simple to say like, you can ask that person what they want. But sometimes people don't know what they want. And or sometimes they have trouble telling you what they want. It's theirs. Or should people not be should we all just live isolated, ARCA? Is that what we're learning?

Unknown Speaker 38:37
Okay, you

Scott Benner 38:38
live in our cave, and then just come out for sex day and then go back in the cave again? Is that what this should be?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:44
Oh, my gosh, that would be so sad. No, we are we are we are relational. I think we want to be we want to be acknowledged. And in that we can also acknowledge others, you know, for what, for all that least, that's been seen and done.

Scott Benner 39:00
You said something at the beginning, that I wanted to kind of just kind of end on here with this conversation if you think we're done. But you talked about like lose the loss of physical intimacy. And is that and is that an easier way to mend fences than talking? Like if you've lost a physical connection can leaping back into that or trying to fix that? Is that easier to fix than talking? I guess is my question.

Unknown Speaker 39:31
No,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 39:33
gosh, I think what depending on the the the couple, one, one party one partner might feel like the reason why there isn't the emotional intimacy because the physical intimacy is lacking, right. And the other partner might feel like Well, I don't want to be physically intimate because I don't feel emotionally connected with you.

Scott Benner 39:57
Well, that makes sense.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 39:58
And you could come to a you know This impasse right, because one person's needs aren't being met and the other then that they're not going to give the other person the other needs. So it's going back to understanding what are what are your partner's needs? And off? Maybe it is it can we need to. Some one needs to give a little. Whether the partners like holding out to feel emotionally connected before before they feel comfortable physically, or,

Scott Benner 40:27
like it didn't need to be I know, because I joke around you probably thought I met like swinging from the chandelier. But could it just be like, holding hands or like touching someone on the shoulder when you walk past them? Or just giving the other person the feeling like you're not avoiding them? Like, you don't mean like, sex, it's got to start somewhere. And because if because the stuff we're talking about, is, is not intuitive for the people for people sometimes. But like, you have to move in the right direction, or you continue to move in the wrong direction. And like me, I just feel like you have to fight upstream sometimes, and maybe just holding someone's hand or sitting next to them while they're watching television or something like that. would go a long way to making another person feel comfortable. I might be wrong. I'm just

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 41:11
No, no, no, you're good. I think starting Yes, starting small and we don't, if you feel like there has been zero physical intimacy, and one partner is feeling like there's no way I'm ever going to ever want to have sex with this person until we get to this spot emotionally. To go back yes to saying maybe my partner's love language is physical touch and intimacy. So how can I help bridge that that might be an easier way, as you said, just start smaller with the small touches gestures. And that might lead to both of you then feeling more open and ready to have some more emotional intimacy, conversations, communication. So I think it just depends on what knowing knowing your own, quote, love language and your partners. And then being willing one, one person often has to take the first step. I'm just

Scott Benner 42:09
saying those old touches charging those old Tom and Jerry cartoons when they had to get past the Bulldog, they throw steak over the fence. That's all I'm getting out here. And and I listen to the rest of the reality of what you just said, I don't not understand that. I know a person might not want to be intimate with somebody that they don't feel comfortable with. That obviously makes 1,000% sense. But I mean, once you're in it for a while, once you're married for 10 or 15 years, and you see things you're just like, wow, none of this is going the way I want. I mean, are you just what do you just riding it out? Like it just feels like you're just climbing higher and higher on the Titanic try not to get wet. You know, it's gonna happen eventually. So, try something. You know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah, I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 42:56
should try something being open to give, you know, trying some intervention, trying some gesture, to to make a change. Because as we know, we're gonna, we're not going to change, things aren't going to change

Scott Benner 43:10
stuffs not just going to magically get better.

Unknown Speaker 43:13
And

Scott Benner 43:14
even that like feeling of like, oh, I'll get mellower. As I get older, it's you'll have too much resentment at that point. And won't matter if you don't have the piss and vinegar to fight anymore. You're still not going to like the person you're looking at. Because you're going to feel like you wasted time or life or I don't know, you got to do something is how I feel about it. Like you have to try something. And, and I do think the idea that someone needs to be the not the bigger person, I believe in the intent of that phrase, but not the words of that phrase, if that makes sense. If someone has to go first, if someone's got to swallow hard and go, Alright, fine. I'll do this. Like, I'll be the one and and do it with a lot of joy not not angry, you think begrudgingly right? You can't be progressing about it. That's all I fixed

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 44:00
that there. But there's hope i think you know, just being being hopeful and holding on that remembering go I think if you're at the place where you feel hopeless to go back to remembering how you first met as often this is like a and I know we're wrapping up here but maybe it's your you don't when you scheduling that time together to not first address the issue at hand but to reflect on how you first met, the feelings doing you you had and the experiences you you created together to go back and remember remind yourself and your partner and and reflect together to maybe go back to the beginning could be a place to start as well to kind of reignite that sense of hope.

Scott Benner 44:47
How much value is there in being reasonable about who you who you're with to like At what point do you just say, you know, maybe this isn't what I was hoping this person was going to turn into but If I'm being honest, this is who they are, they're being really consistent. Like, at what point? Can I say I love you. I don't like this part about you, but I love you. And I'm gonna stop focusing on the thing I don't like and and see the bigger picture. Like, I don't know if that's wrong or not like I'm genuinely asking like, at what point do you not like, expect somebody to be perfect and say to yourself, there was a time when that, you know, picadillo didn't bother me. And now it's the only thing I can look at.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:29
Mm hmm. And I think yeah, if you were, if you were in that place, and trying to figure out how to come to that place of, of acceptance, embracing who your partner is loving that your partner, then maybe that's the time for you to do some own, like reflection to whether that's, you know, by yourself through journaling, reading books, therapy, to kind of get to that place of can you do that? Do you want to? And can you get to that place of, of acceptance? Yeah,

Scott Benner 46:03
I want to be clear that I'm just trying to talk through this, like, I genuinely don't think like, if it comes across, like, I think you should, you know, have a have a whiskey and water at the bedside at the, you know, at the table with the newspaper in his pipe, and it's 1950. And when he comes home, you rub his feet, put on his slippers, and then go flop on the bed till he's ready to bang on you. Like, I'm not saying that, like, I really am not trying to put that out there. Okay, like, I seriously don't think that I don't have those thoughts about relationships. I just think that it's, it's hard to see the other person's side. And sometimes it's, it's just, it's, it's difficult to, in this conversation, this kind of conversation where I'm trying to play, I'm trying to argue both sides while you and I are talking, that it I don't want people to think like, oh, he just thinks that women should you know, be barefoot and pregnant? Like, I don't feel that way. And I don't. And I don't think I didn't pick up. Yeah, I'm glad I just now I'm nervous at the end here. Because we're talking about Jesus, there's somebody out there right now is like, I'm not just gonna have sex with him to shut him up. But I'm not saying that.

Unknown Speaker 47:10
I genuinely,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:12
I think I mean, I think bottom line is that, you know, marriage or relationships, it takes work, and, and you got to be willing to do the work. And then when you integrate a chronic illness into the equation, it's going to take even more work. And I think, oftentimes, it's hard to it's hard to do the work. It just is

Scott Benner 47:38
there, there are close to 90,000 scholarly articles that come back if you google divorced and chronic illness or something like that. So this is not a new problem that you're having. I think that's important to know that, that people could feel like oh, my God, this is it. Like I was bad at being a spouse, or I picked the wrong part. If you think that most people aren't going through this, you're out of your minds, like like this. Yeah, this is everybody's life. Nobody, nobody gets away with this. They just find some people are just better at pretending I always say the happier people look more foolish they are. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:20
probably sometimes, too, but I think it's just it takes Yes. I mean, that's a very true thing of, you know, divorce within, or as a result, or a part of, you know, living with a chronic illness or having a child with chronic illness. And I think just knowing the Yes, that you're not alone, that it's, it is challenging, and it does, it takes it takes work on top of the work that you're doing to to keep your child alive. Yeah,

Scott Benner 48:52
I have a very pragmatic approach to like happiness. I don't expect to be happy every day. And I even expect that there could be days that turn into weeks where nothing that I would, you know, think of is like really super exciting. And something I'm glad to be doing, you know, might happen, I might get stuck in a work cycle. It's happened to me over the last couple of weeks, like I've had to, I've had to prepare the podcast. Instead of preparing a week of it, I've had to prepare three weeks of it to cover my absence, right. And so I've been working like crazy. So I've been getting up working, going to sleep getting up working, like I've over and over and over again. And if you know, I've heard no lie, I've heard 15 hours of this podcast in the last five days, like editing and doing things and I've said, you know, learn more on the pod.com forward slash juicebox more in the last 48 hours than I've said it in like three weeks. So it's not fun work. But I also think that way about life, like I think if I live I don't know if I figure if I live 80 years and the first 15 kind of don't count cuz I don't really remember, I'm so much so you know, if I've got 60 years in there, and 20 of them are terrific, and 10 of them are pretty good, and five of them are alright, and 10 of them sucked, and five of them were terrible. When I get to the end, that's not bad to me, like, to me, that makes sense that every day is not going to be a carnival. Now, when they start happening, long stretches, obviously, that's a different problem. But I mean, I just don't, I don't have a happiness expectation, I'm happy to be happy. And there are plenty of times that I'm happy. But I'm not sad when I'm not elated. Is that healthy? Or am I fooling myself into accepting too little?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:40
Well, I think what you're saying is, you know, life life is it can be a grind sometimes. And, and accepting that and working towards it, and you're working towards something, and you're doing something that you enjoy, are passionate about, knowing that it life is going to ebb and flow. And so I think that it's having it's a realistic perspective of, there are going to be hard moments, they're going to be moments that feel just kind of ordinary, and they're gonna be moments that are great. And to accept that, you know, those seasons don't last forever. Just like, you know, most emotions don't last forever, they come and go. And I think that being able to kind of live in that. And through that is, is where you're at peace. And it takes it takes work, I'm sure you know, you've worked to get there emotionally,

Scott Benner 51:29
yeah, things can and we'll get better like judging your whole existence by the bad thing that's happening right now, in my mind is a mistake. I, I love there are people on this planet that I love more than myself. And I've had amazing interactions with them. Sometimes just days, after they've said something to me that I'd think oh, well, I'm never gonna see this person again. Or this person hates my guts, but they're just they could be also going through something and likely are, I just don't, I don't give up. Like, I just think like, this is what it is. And we just make the best of it every day, and some days will be better than others. I just want to give people hope, especially when you find yourself newly diagnosed, or you're in that situation where right now you barely understand what's going on. But your spouse really doesn't understand it. Like it, it's genuinely not gonna stay like this forever. And you might look back on this time and wonder why you were so well not wonder what you were so upset about, you'll know what you were so upset about. But you'll be you'll, you'll think, Wow, I can't believe we got out of that I'd never expected to leave that moment. But you can and

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:36
you've likely right. But when you're in it, and you're in that newly diagnosed stage and haze and shock, I mean, it's it's hard to access, or even comprehend that whatever. And that that particular stage. So that's why you need somebody

Scott Benner 52:50
to tell you challenging, that's why I said it, because you need somebody to tell you, this isn't going to be like this forever. I mean, the way I usually put it is diabetes is hard, it doesn't get easier, you just get way better at it. And that makes it feel easier. And and you You shouldn't make the you shouldn't you shouldn't worry about that distinction. Because you know, you can do hard things and you are going to do hard things and it's going to be around diabetes, if diabetes, you know, I that's going to be the hard thing that you're going to do. And you can like get some help. You can do it. It's and if you don't understand, like you said, you know, earlier Erica, like referenced like listening to some of the protests, but she's not just like butter and my bread. She really thinks that like you just need somebody Yeah, go find something that's valuable. Like to me, if you have a spouse that doesn't understand those defining diabetes episodes are digestible. They're short, and they at least give them context. And then maybe some of the things you say to them, they'll have context for because you might be using words they don't even understand. And they're just nodding along. Try not to look like an idiot, you know, you don't know. Yeah, people are complicated. Disgusting. The whole thing's a mess. Alright. Life is hard. Yeah, there you go. But it's not always hard. And it doesn't have to be this hard. Like sometimes you can you get through it or you make it better yourself. You are really kind of the master of your own domain. You know, you can I think that's a Seinfeld episode, which is about masturbation, which is not what I meant. So let's just keep moving. But you can you can be the master of of your, what am I looking for here? What's the word I want? You to future? You're out your perspective. Yeah, you have anything of all these things. You can change the way you think about stuff. I listen. It's not apples to apples, but I grew up pretty broke. You know, and my life wasn't terrific. And there are a lot of times you had to get up in the morning and just I mean, if you want my secret, which is no secret, I am eternally hopeful. Like you will never meet a person who wakes up, reset more than I do. If something goes wrong today, I will wake up tomorrow with the same enthusiasm I had before that bad thing happened. I don't see another way around it. I don't I, I don't think I could carry all that baggage. You know what I mean? So I just don't i don't walk with the weight of the world on my shoulders. I I don't believe I could do it. So I just I reset my hope I am a very hopeful person. And I wake up every day, expecting things to go well. And if they don't, it's okay. I'll try again tomorrow. That's pretty much it. But yes, it's good to healthy. Thank you. First, let's thank touched by type one, again, you can find them at touched by type one.org. You can also find them on Facebook, and Instagram. They are a wonderful organization. And all they really want is for you to check them out. Take advantage of their programs. I also want to thank Erika, and you can find out more about what she does at Erica foresight.com. That's erikforsyth.com.

There's so much music left. I'm having a hard time sitting here quietly. I'd like to take just a moment to thank you all. I know this happens frequently. But it happens frequently because of how great you guys are and how supportive you are. The podcast keeps having months that are better than the previous month. Meaning there are more people downloading and streaming the show this month and last month, more last month in the month before that had record days record weeks. For the past four weeks in a row. The podcast has grown pretty substantially. It's it's astounding actually. The reason I'm telling you is because this is 100% because of you. Absolutely. When you leave a great review, wherever you're listening, rate the show highly tell somebody about it. Tell your doctor about it. Doctors when you tell your patients, it just keeps growing and growing. And the message keeps spreading farther and farther. I am very, very, very, very grateful for how much you all put into the podcast. So thank you very much for your efforts for listening for downloading for streaming however you listen. But mostly for sharing the show. It is a really big deal. I appreciate that you're listening, and I'll be back very soon with another episode.