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Scott Benner 0:00
Hey, how's everybody doing? Welcome to Episode 502 of the Juicebox Podcast. I'm your host

Welcome back, everyone. On today's episode I'm going to be speaking with Kim Kim is a therapist. And she and I spend a lot of time today talking about relationships and communication was fun. I liked it. Good talk. Good talk. I should call this one good talk with Kim. But I call it relationships and communication. Actually, I'm gonna call it communication and relationships. Wait, let's see what feels better. relationships and communication, communication and relationships. Good talk with Kim. Now, communication relationships. That's what I do. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. or becoming bold with insulin. Kimberly groves is a licensed psychologist working out of Cherry Hill, New Jersey, New Jersey, New Jersey. What now? Wow. After the music, I'll try that again. That was a trainer.

Kimberly groves is a licensed psychologist. She works at the Center for emotional health Family Care Center in Cherry Hill, New Jersey. And she has type one diabetes. She also runs a living well with Type One Diabetes support group for family members and individuals. If you'd like to learn more about that, you can call 856-220-9672 for details and registration. It's an in I think it's in person but maybe it's online right now you know how the world is. Anyway. Kim is great. She's going to be back again. I really enjoyed talking with her. And if you want to hear more about our support group, which is free of charge and open to the community, well then call that number use the buttons 856220967 This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries. g vo hypo Penn. Find out more at GE Vogue glucagon.com forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored by the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. It is little It is easy to carry. It has a bright light. It's superduper accurate. It's the best meter I've ever used. Honest to whatever it is. You swear to. I'm holding up my hand right now as if I was in an 80s TV show. And my hand was on a Bible and I was in a courtroom. I promise you this meter is the bomb bomb diggity. Check it out Contour. Next One comm forward slash juicebox. Hello. I guess the first question I should ask you is can you hear me?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 3:06
I sure can. Can you hear me? I can. Fantastic. Yeah, yes. Yes. improvement.

Scott Benner 3:15
I feel like my mom getting the Netflix on?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 3:18
Yes. It is a little embarrassing. I even brought backups just in case I didn't have to make the trek up and down bunch of steps if this fails, so I am good to go.

Scott Benner 3:28
It's It's It's interesting, because I read your email, like after you had time to think about it. You sent it back and I thought oh my god, I made this person feel terrible. Or the situation at least or what? You know what went on? I felt so terrible. I wish at the time I would have understood better what was happening. I would have just been like, let's just stop. But it's very cool that you want to try again.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 3:53
Yeah, no, not you at all. It was technology and my lack of knowledge.

Scott Benner 4:00
I didn't realize you were struggling. So I mean, listening back I do and like I trashed the episode, I threw away the file. But I just figured we'll just talk now and this will be terrific and etc. But I just didn't at the moment. There's a lot going on in my head while I'm recording one of these like, I wish I could say that I'm just talking but there's a lot more happening. So you know, anyway.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 4:26
Yeah. Yeah, I thought I was able to just kind of, like get through it by just making some vague statements might fit. But then towards the end, there was just too many of them and I was confused as to what questions I was asking. So Well, yeah,

Scott Benner 4:42
I the only other time this happens, and I know this isn't your situation. But um, sometimes I get those emails from crazy people. So and I'd be crazy. I mean that in the very colloquial sense of the term, but They, they begin to overthink it. And they start, I could have said this, I could have said that I'm like, you don't understand what this all is like it, you know, we could have this conversation 1000 times you'd say 1000 different things. They don't don't get that. So. So we'll just start, you know, start fresh, you'll Introduce yourself any way you want to be known. And we'll dig into you a little bit. And then I think I really am, I've become very interested in the idea that people don't, aren't aware of why they're doing things. And I would, I would love to like, just talk about diabetes a little bit. And then, you know, kind of pick through that, if that's something you're comfortable with. Sure. Cool. Go ahead, introduce yourself.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 5:48
Okay. Um, my name is Kim groves. I am a licensed clinical psychologist in Cherry Hill, New Jersey and type one diabetic.

Scott Benner 5:57
Kim, at the end of this, if people are just like, I loved Kim, and I want to see her Do you have to live in New Jersey for that to happen?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 6:05
telehealth has offered some, you know, loosening of regulations, but it's getting complicated, again with this C pack thing. So, yes, so just for a short answer, yes,

Scott Benner 6:17
yes. Even Philadelphia, it's right there on the other side of the river. That should

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 6:22
Yeah. During the pandemic, we were able to see I saw people across state lines often, because they, you know, because of the state of emergency, if it was also saved emergency in a different state, we were allowed to see people, which was great, because oftentimes, if we see someone who's in college, and they go to college, in a different state, we have to kind of pause treatment. So it really allowed for, you know, those cases to continue to be seen. So it's it's been kind of nice with that, but I think they're tightening back up.

Scott Benner 6:49
Were those people grandfathered in?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 6:53
No, it was just all due to the state of emergency where they were historically insurance. And, and our licensing boards wouldn't allow it because they were, you know, different state regulations, we have to take a jurisprudence exam in New Jersey to know the laws to which you would have to follow in a state of like a crisis situation that I don't know, in every state. So typically, it wouldn't be ethical for me to see someone where if they became suicidal, I don't know what to do in Virginia, so to speak. But when the world was in the state of emergency, the beginning figure there's bigger fish to fry. So by

Scott Benner 7:27
you wouldn't know what to do. You mean, you wouldn't know the people that contact or write protocol calls that they follow? Not that people's problems are different state to state? No, I guess they are, but not the core issues. Right. But maybe the Yeah, like I don't think I've ever had stress over working in a coal mine, for instance, that I don't see how that happened to me, I'd have to live near a coal mine for that to happen. But right, the stress would be okay, I'm okay. Okay. Sorry. I just want to understand, because it's one of those things that when people say it out loud, it sounds stupid, you know, like, but understanding the back, the kind of the back room reasoning for it that it makes sense. You know, like, why would it matter if you lived in Pennsylvania and experiencing anxiety and really liked Kim, and she was helping you the one thing I did find strange in that answer was that if you pick somebody up during the pandemic, you're helping them, and then all of a sudden, you have to cut them free. Is it? Is it professionally on you to find them someone else to speak to? How does that work?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 8:31
Yeah, we, we make sure to find referrals within the area that they're in and, you know, try to, you know, we can coordinate with a new clinician to kind of catch them up to speed if the client would like, or we can have no contact if they want to start fresh. But yeah, I mean, this is all been brand new and a typical, but some states, you know, some therapists in my practice, I've gotten emails saying you have a week to terminate with this case, because we've decided you're no longer allowed to work across this particular state line. And then they have a week to scramble and find somebody new. And, you know, the mental health pandemic is a real thing. And we I my practice alone has about a six month waiting list. So it's a little complicated in one week's time to find a new person, depending on the state so because

Scott Benner 9:17
other people are gonna be in that same situation, right? What was the waitlist, like prior to COVID?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 9:24
We always had one, but it was, I would say closer to three months.

Scott Benner 9:30
Wow, you almost need to know you need help before you need help. Right? What happens to somebody who's in an emergency situation that gets referred to a hospital?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 9:40
It does unless it's you we do consider acuity when we have an intake, we will kind of we've transitioned to doing an intake first to just see what the need is for a person and then determine Is it safe to wait? Is it worth the wait for this particular treatment for you or should you go elsewhere? You might be able to be seen sooner or do you need to go Go hospital.

Scott Benner 10:00
So you can, it is a little on you can you can recognize a real imminent issue that might be common safety and say okay, no, no, there's no way you come right out like that kind of an idea. Yeah. Are you seeing people in person yet?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 10:15
No, we've just started to talk about that. But it's in the regulations are still really strict where we'd be able to only see about half the number of patients a day than typical. And we'd have to do things that in a therapeutic relationship is a little odd, like temperature, tech checks and texting, it just kind of changes the whole dynamic of it also. So I've been a little hesitant to take that step. But theoretically, we're allowed, but I think it'll be another couple months before we're really back in the office.

Scott Benner 10:47
So when somebody comes walking through the door, it should feel like they're just walking into the den of their own home, and it's comfortable, and you're there. And it's Hi, and have a seat and how are you? And then it should feel it shouldn't be, please sit behind this Plexiglas while I take your temperature. And then let's talk through a facemask. Because that could already be the issue. Right?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 11:07
Exactly. And my practice, actually, a lot of the clinicians specialize in treating OCD. And so that's been a whole separate issue of you know, people who previously had, you know, significant anxiety surrounding contamination, now come into this, quote, unquote, safe place with Plexiglas and temperature checks, and don't touch me, just kind of sets the stage for an anxiety provoking situation, which is the exact opposite world in some respects than what we want.

Scott Benner 11:35
I'm going to ask you a question that there's no way either of us could have known we were going to talk about so. Okay, I was remembering the other day that when I was in elementary school, ish, middle school, elementary, 6/6, fifth, sixth, seventh grade in that space there. I remember for the first time hearing, that if I slept on the crack in the sidewalk, it would break my mother's back. Okay. Right, this idea. And one day walking to school, along this long path, I recognized that I was unconsciously avoiding stepping on the splits in the sidewalk. I didn't think much of it. And then I came home, and it happened again. And then I went to school the next day, and it happened again, and about the third or fourth time it happened. Even as a young kid, I physically stopped myself, I stopped walking, I stopped myself mentally. And I said, This is ridiculous. Stop it, and then forced myself to step on the cracks checked on my mom after work, boom, turned out chairback was okay. And I moved forward. Did I stop myself from slipping into an OCD ritual?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 12:45
Absolutely. That's there's exposure response prevention treatment right? There. Seriously? That's essentially Yeah, I mean, because, you know, for someone who becomes conscious of that, and then connects that what we call magical thinking to this is why mom's back hasn't broken in the past three days. So I didn't do this, I need to keep this up. And then it turns into all these other rituals that can really spiral out of control. And then you lose the evidence of stepping out a crack and your mom's back not breaking. And the further away you get from that, the harder it is to believe in it. So you exhausted that immediately, which was smart. I was

Scott Benner 13:19
a, I was a chubby little kid. So I didn't have anything else to do except for things. So I was able to spend my time. I wasn't busy with sports, or friends or anything like that. So I had plenty of time to think things through. But No, but seriously, I still I don't have a ton of childhood memories. But I could paint you a picture of that moment. Like I remember thinking, Hey, this is a weird, slippery slope. You're on here, buddy. Like, let's get off right now. And it doesn't make any sense. So let's just stop it. It really was. It was interesting. And if anything like that ever pops up. What are some other things like, you know, when you're driving on the highway, and you hit the Like, there's, there's you don't realize even on blacktop highways, but they're done in sections. So everyone smile, you hear it, click, click, click, click while you're driving like that. And I if I would find myself even like tapping my finger in between the cliques, I immediately put a stop to it. And I don't even feel like that was an odd thing. I just, it seemed to me reminiscent of the first thing and I was like, I never wanted to, but I don't have that happen to me frequently. It's just that if it should pop up during my life, I squelch it really quickly. Good. I don't know. I'm just that just really you said OCD. And I thought I wonder how many people that happens to where you just kind of fall into it? Is it um, is OCD like stuff like that an indication of something else? Or is it unto itself?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 14:47
It depends. I mean, everything is kind of on a continuum. So there are some cases where it seems very much just biologically based and and you really can't make any connection as to who what where, why, but if you're prone to Anxiety by nature. And you know, even something like the stepping on the cracks happens, you know, there it's an unknown and unknowns are anxiety provoking. And that could be why you remember it even though it didn't go too far. Is there an emotion that starts to connect to an experience? And if you're already predisposed to being anxious, that's where it can, you know, again, kind of snowball into something that eventually presents some CD. It's interesting.

Scott Benner 15:23
Really? Yes. I'm sorry. That was way off of why you're here to talk. Yeah. I appreciate you answering. Yeah. Okay. So I have become super interested in helping people understand the things that they don't even understand about themselves. from, from a couple of different perspectives wrapped around diabetes. Before we get into those things, though. You have type one. Yes. Oh, when were you diagnosed? 15 years ago. 2006 2006. And you're 30 now so you were 15?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 15:58
Yeah, yes. Let's pretend. Now. I will be 30 I'll be 38 next week. Okay,

Scott Benner 16:06
so eight years plus 15 makes you 23 when you were diagnosed? I was 22. I think that was close. Cheese. Kim. Just go with it. I mean, okay. Yeah, sure. Better cozier later, wouldn't it be great if I just if one day my math worked out? People just started going? Yeah, that's amazing. Scott, congratulations. You've added two small numbers together. Anyway,

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 16:31
no, you know, I actually will say that birthday mess is very complicated. When we do IQ tests, we have to calculate someone's age to the date as we're administering the test. And I've always found it the most stressful part of administering that exam. Because when you throw in the January factor, it gets complicated. So

Scott Benner 16:50
I have to be honest, you're not alone. I just talked to whatever voice assistant is around and say, how many days? Or has it been since blah, blah, blah, and then convert the days into yours? Yeah, I cheat a lot. And that goes all the way back to high school one day when I was like, I'll have a calculator when I'm adult. Why do I need to understand this? And meanwhile, I really didn't need to understand that math. And I feel stupid for not paying closer attention to it. Again, not the point. How was your diagnosis was it I mean, you were in college or out of college by then?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 17:22
I was in graduate school. So I was living in Missouri at the time. I'm from New Jersey. So I was living in the middle the country. And I was my father was a type one diabetic. And he so I was familiar with diabetes. And I was I was actually ironically in a health psychology class at the time learning about teasing out different medical issues from psychological issues such as you know, depression can often look like high blood sugars, hypothyroidism, things like that. So we learned the basics to just know if someone should be seeking medical care versus loss. And, and I remember there was a slide about type one diabetes and the Hallmark symptoms that just never came up with my dad. I always knew he was type one, but never talked about his diagnosis. So I actually didn't even know the Hallmark symptoms, which were of course the weight loss, frequent thirst and urination. And, and I remember looking down and I had about four bottles of water or coffee or Red Bull. I was sitting on a sweatshirt because my tailbone was digging into the seat. And I would take full naps and our five minute breaks between classes, like during class, and frequent urination. I was like, Huh. Like when also, I guess I just didn't consider it was my age. I thought I dodged the bullet. And then I went out and I called my dad after that class, and I said, Hey, this is what I just learned. What do you think? And he said, to go by a meter, and you start testing. And then and then he did, which he thought it would lower blood sugar, recommend that I start drinking beer to lower my blood sugar because I worked

Scott Benner 19:08
for my father, because your dad would get low when he was drinking.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 19:12
Yeah, I mean, eventually lowers your blood sugar. So he was thinking, all right, I can't give you my insulin pen right now. So just go drink a beer and get a meter and call the doctor.

Scott Benner 19:23
That's great. Oh my gosh, how old is your father now? So he actually he passed away last month. Oh, I'm so sorry.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 19:33
That's okay. Actually huge unsolicited shout out to dex comms follow up though. He was I followed his sugars. He begrudgingly allowed that and one day he was the no data popped up and had actually happened a week before. And I called him and he was trying to shield his irritation because I you know, he's someone I had diabetes 41 Yours, you don't want to be bothered about it. But I was worried he lives alone. He was 73. And I was like, why is there no data? And he's like, I just ripped it off those annoying, like, okay. So, so he would do that. So I wasn't immediately alarmed. But then there was a couple hours, no data was no day. So I finally called him he didn't answer. I have two brothers. They both called he didn't answer as well. And text, he wouldn't get back to us. So my brother went over to his house and found him on the ground, he had had a stroke. And he was still alive, though. He's still breathing. And so we got into the hospital in time to where we were able to be there to say goodbye. And I think the follow up for that, because had I had no indication that anything was wrong. I probably wouldn't have checked until the next day.

Scott Benner 20:47
So when I got into say goodbye, I don't. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I know. For people listening, Kim and I recorded once already, and we had really bad technical issues. So I know some things about her. So when I asked about your data, I expected fully that he'd be alive and with us when you answer the question I apologize for, for bringing that up for you. But Wow, no, that's crazy. And you make me reconsider. I joke with Kelly sometimes she'll like wake up and she's like, is Arden alright? Like sometimes it just hits her like that when she wakes up? You know? And, and I go in the room and and I'm like, She's fine. I said, she's a little low. Like we fix it. She goes, You sure she's alright. I was like, I don't think she'd have a blood sugar if she was that. I like I'll joke like that sometimes trying to light heart and I realize it's probably not everybody's level of humor. But But, but it always makes me wonder like if a person wearing a CGM were to pass away with the CGM. How long would it be able to still read interstitial fluid, but your dad just was like he got irritated and took it off?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 21:52
Yeah, not that time, though. The second time it was because he was. So actually he wasn't he wasn't fully dead. He was essentially brain dead. But no, this is he when they when the paramedics got there. So there was no data. And then I got there. And then when they cleared out his pathway and intubated him, his blood sugar's turn back on, why does he just start working again?

Scott Benner 22:13
Yeah, so that so when the circulation moved to a crawl in his body, than the interstitial fluid wasn't moving, and it couldn't read anything. And then when he Wow, that's insane. And I so sorry, that this is about your father, and so recent, because you just use the phrase fully dead. And I would like to joke with you about but I know, it's, it's just that we shouldn't. But let us remember him as the man who would have met a newly diagnosed person and told them, why don't you just get a beer until you can find an endo? Because that's rocks, right information. And I story. Yeah, I will put like a blurb in somewhere where we tell people that's not good advice. But um, I saw, you could see his thinking in it, though. It's really interesting. Yeah. I, you know, assuming next time he'd say, you know, I would prefer if he would have said, once you go for a walk or get exercise, there's other ways to make it happen. So, so Kim, I think going back to what I said before, and I guess kind of starting with people with type one diabetes, and I don't want to talk about parents and people a little bit but starting with people with diabetes. My, my biggest like interest is the illusion that people who don't manage in a way that ends with good healthy outcomes somehow don't care about themselves. And it can't be true that people don't care about themselves right? Or can it? What is it really happening to someone? And why does it look like they're just not concerned?

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Here we are again, and by Here we are again, I mean, me and you and us and them, everybody. We're here. What do we all need? We need a meter that works. We need a meter that works well. That works easily. And that works in every situation that we find ourselves in. Everyone who is using insulin needs a blood glucose meter that does those things. And I think you should check out the Contour Next One blood glucose meter. Now why is that? Well, yes, they paid me to tell you. But that's not why we've been using the the Contour Next One blood glucose meter for a long time around here and it is safe, not the best blood glucose meter I've ever used while Arden has had type one, and she has had type one now for just about 15 years. This one is accurate, it is easy to hold, easy to transport and easy to use in dark situations, I think that's really what you need. But on top of all that the Contour Next One blood glucose meter has amazing accuracy. And it features Second Chance test strips. And that means that you can touch some blood not good enough, and go back and get more without ruining the strip, or the accuracy the test and I don't want you to misunderstand, this meter doesn't need a lot of blood. I'm just saying you know, there's times where you come in sideways and you get a little or you can't get your finger to like an ear squeezing and squeezing a tiny bit comes out and you know, you save yourself like this will be enough. And you know, you know it won't be enough. But you just can't get any blood to come out. So you're just going for it and you touch it and it's not enough. And you gotta get more, I'm saying that situation, you're still gonna get accuracy and reliability, clear and easy to read screen. And if you want Bluetooth connectivity to your iPhone or Android to save your data. And if you don't want to, you don't have to like you can use the meter independent, or you can use it in conjunction with the app, you should go check it out at Contour Next one.com forward slash juice box absolutely terrific device actually possible that it might cost you in cash, less for the test trips, then you're paying through your insurance company for the one you have now. So it's really worth looking into for a number of different reasons. And the website's super instant, super insistency super easy to navigate, and easy to use. So won't take any time at all to look through Contour. Next One comm forward slash juicebox there's links in the show notes of your podcast player, or links at Juicebox Podcast comm if you can't remember that contour link that I just gave you. Alright, let's get to Kim, she can answer my question. And we'll get back into the flow this conversation. I love it. It really picks up here a little bit. Catch our stride, you know what I mean? Like a five row we're like moving groovy like, you know, it really takes off.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 27:52
I mean, I think, you know, that's that's such an individualized situation. I mean, I think even someone who would say they don't care about themself, likely does in just maybe a very distorted unhealthy way. Because, you know, underneath it all everyone has, has an ego. So it's there somewhere, it just might be masked in, you know, some maladaptive patterns. So I think poor management, you know, again, I think is what comes up on your podcast a lot about just timing, you know, decades ago, what was said to people, you know, a lot of the, the barriers to management have changed now. So I think the reasoning will be very different from someone who was diagnosed, you know, 30 years ago versus today, because it's much easier to manage than it was historically. But I just think there's so many different stages you go through, so I don't mind answering the question, but I feel like it just it would I have a million questions for that particular person?

Scott Benner 28:53
Yeah. And I want to keep talking through it. Like, I don't expect you to be like, oh, here's a simple here's why Scott, cuz blue. You know what I mean, buddy? No, no, I, I imagine that. Like going back decades, there just weren't any more answers, right? Like that would you know, going back 30 years ago and saying, someone eventually ended up in renal failure or had a heart attack because of, you know, crazy all over the place blood sugar, so they, you know, twice a year, we're being picked up by paramedics because they passed out while they were sleeping and that having seizures like that I get, it's just a lack of, like, science just hasn't moved far enough. It would be like if I went and found a caveman and said, Can you believe these guys can't get to the moon? Like you mean? Like, they just didn't have enough tools? And so I would imagine at some point, you just settle into, Hey, I got a disease. This is as manageable as it is. It's probably going to shorten my lifespan somehow. I'm gonna try to be happy. But nowadays, is it just like, could it be frustration Could it be that you don't like what happens to a person once they're frustrated enough times and don't have have an answer, like is giving up? Is that is giving up a coping mechanism? Like if you just can't fight the fight one more time, because it doesn't seem to be a win at the end?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 30:13
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it is a 24 seven disease. And you know, that comes with burnout. And if someone doesn't have strong coping skills or you know, issues with their self esteem, or they're battling something, they're unconscious, you know, that could certainly result in not taking care of your health.

Scott Benner 30:34
If I said to you, that I want to retask a word, and I give you the idea of two boxers in front of you. And they're hitting each other over and over again, and one of them just can't hit it anymore. And they take one last big blow, and they fall over. And I want to say to you, instead of saying that that person lost, they burned out in that situation, right? They just couldn't fight anymore, is because I'm, I'm always I always rub up against the word burn out a little bit, like, like, it feels like it doesn't do the situation justice to me. Does that make sense? Meaning it minimizes it? I guess. So I guess meaning that there's so much more to it than just, I just couldn't do this. And I didn't want I think people read it as I didn't want to do it anymore. And I don't think it's a want. I think it's I think it's just you got hit one too many times, and you can't get back up again. And I know that's a that's a slim difference. But not being able to persevere, and not wanting to persevere, are two different things.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 31:40
Yeah, absolutely. I think you can even look at that on a bad day, you know, a roller coaster day where you, by the end of that day, you just don't want to deal with your blood sugar anymore. And you might just sit a little high or, you know, not a little low but sit a little high, maybe more than you would typically because you just don't want to do it at the end of the day that a great doesn't equal, someone who doesn't care about it or want to take care of it in general just can be exhausted.

Scott Benner 32:06
And then you don't if you don't have the tools, then that's evil. Because I do see people like you said, maybe not so much low, but I do see people who spend a day at 55. And they're feeding their basil all day long. And it for some and it never occurs to them to just dial the basil back. Right, they get they get caught in this idea that, hey, this Basal rates worked for me for weeks and months, it can't possibly be that. But on that day, maybe that's not your problem. Like maybe the maybe the reason you're low, didn't begin with your basil being too high. But at this point, now whatever that thing is, your basil is holding you at 55. And instead of continuing to feed it, it would be so simple to back it off, feed it once and start over again. But instead, you'll see people get trapped for 1218 hours like I've been at that I'm exhausted, I can't eat anymore. Like you know, it really does happen. And and not being able to turn immediately to the insulin and say like how can I adjust this insulin so that this stops happening is a step that a lot of us step a lot of people miss and they get caught in that thing. And then I guess sort of like the stepping on the cracks. You can you can lean into it. And then a bad day can turn into a bad week can turn into a bad month can turn into like, my a once has been bad this year. And you know, like when do you stop yourself from stepping on the crack, like when you just go Screw it, I'm gonna stay on the crack for a while, like I'm gonna force myself back to doing this thing. And, and I guess also, once you start drifting in one of those directions, either very high blood sugars, very low blood sugars, you alluded to it earlier. It starts impacting you, your your mental acuity, and then maybe you get put in a position where you can't get out of it. Right? Because you're physically unable. So if that happens to people, how do they reset? Because that's the key right is to stop and start over. Where am I wrong?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 34:02
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think too, there's that's where I think some of the the knowledge that you've offered to the community is what's lacking for a lot of other people. And I think that's where people get fixed on those Will my Basal right rate is where it's supposed to be based on my inner said, two months ago, when I see him next month, I'll bring up that it seems to be off. And I think there's a large chunk of people that are kind of stuck in that mindset. That might change a little but wouldn't just let that day be. Well, today this is working. So I need to lower my basil rate for the day and not overthink it or feel like they need to consult their endo on it. So I think even they're just the knowledge base still is is a problem.

Scott Benner 34:43
What is that thing right there where you've run into a problem? You can I need a simpler explanation. Why would someone eat a bowl full of potato chips today? think to themselves consciously. This is not how For me, I'm not going to do this again, and then have a bowl of potato chips tomorrow. Like, take the food aspect out of it like, what's the piece in there? That makes the fight to fight your demon? Worse than the outcome you're going to have by continuing on the path? is there is there a human component to that, that you like no name for that I just wonder about.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 35:27
I mean, it reminded me a little bit about someone, you know, most people either have kind of an internal sense of control and demand over their life or an external. And so I've used someone who would feel like I have diabetes, you know, and it's just like, it kind of owns them. And I need to consult an endo or everything's just kind of outside of themself, can get really stuck in those patterns of behavior, versus someone who has an internal locus of control and demand saying, okay, I've been diagnosed with this, how am I going to handle it, I'm not going to eat potato chips, because my you know, I don't want to wait, that's a long Pre-Bolus. Or I don't, it's not worth it to me, because the way that affects my body, so I'm gonna have fake potato chips, or you know, something and just kind of take more control over it. So I think that connects a little bit to esteem. But I think it's also the way people are raised. And I find that, that whether you feel in control of your life, or you let your life control you affects a lot.

Scott Benner 36:27
So there are people who feel like they can do anything. And there are people that feel like there's an institution or a thing that's running their situation. Yes. Okay. Is that does that normally fall along religious lines? Or could that could be political, I guess, as well, or even inside of a family? You know, my dad makes the decisions, my mom goes along with it, vice versa, that kind of thing.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 36:52
I think it's deeper than that. I think it's I think it really is just something a little more. in me, that is skewed by early childhood experiences, typically. But you know, I think it's even if you look at religion, you could view that as how do I want to interpret this? versus, you know, I am to just follow the pack,

Scott Benner 37:14
the two people could go through the same experience and come out of it two different ways to absolutely, yeah. Because I see my upbringing is difficult for a kid. But it made me like, I'll say, like, jokingly, but I mean, this, I don't mean the part about the zombies. But if the zombies come, can you come find me, because we're making it to the end. And I don't know why that is. But that's how my hardships made me feel. Like I kept feeling like, this can't possibly be where I end up, like, I have to keep fighting. You don't I mean, like, there's a way out of this. And I used to base it on intellect, like, I would look around my surroundings and think like a person who's having my thoughts. Like, shouldn't be here. I don't think like I need to find the place where I belong. And this, isn't it. So I'll keep fighting to get out of this. And then I would just look for anything, any pathway, like I see life as an ever growing endless path of forks in the road. And you just come to one, make the best decision, come to the next one, make the best decision, just keep moving. But I know, people who grew up in similar situations to me, not in my not in my house, but in similar situations, and they crumbled. But they're not weak people. And it's fascinating, isn't it? So yeah, I mean,

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 38:42
okay, I think that's good. That's okay. I think that's a good example, though, of where you can see a little bit of the nature and the nurture. So maybe by nature, you have that just kind of a neat, you know, constitution have an internal sense of control and demand where I can figure this out. And then it sounds like your upbringing offered you an unfortunate scenario where you had to figure it out, and you had to kind of take some control and those different things so that probably just really send it home to have that, you know, confidence that zombie apocalypse, you'll figure it out because you

Scott Benner 39:18
have to, but then does it always bounce back and forth? Because now I'm, I recognize that my, my upbringing wasn't very supportive. So I'm more supportive of my kids, but my kids would see the zombies and be like, I mean, I guess we'll fight for a while but then I gotta find something else to do. You don't need me like, you know, they don't have that same. They didn't see the stuff I saw. So they don't they don't know how hard they you have to fight in those situations. I guess. I would just wonder like, Are my kids gonna raise tougher kids and their kids are gonna raise softer kids and their kids are going to raise tougher is it just it just bounce back and forth like that? Interesting,

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 40:01
it can go only, you know, in extreme situations, I mean there is often someone who grows up in a very dysfunctional household, then goes way too far in the other direction and coddles their children or shields them from any let downs in life. And then there are going to be these anxious sheltered kids that then wouldn't have that, you know, mental strength, so to speak, that you develop by learning that life is not all rainbows and butterflies. And then those kids could then in turn, go back and say, Good luck to their children, and let them you know, gain some street smarts and learn the hard way. And then there could be that back and forth. But usually it takes a really dysfunctional start to kind of start that cycle, I guess

Scott Benner 40:49
to those things are easier to learn when you're a kid, like sort of like snowboarding, when you don't really think about compound fractures, you just jump up on the thing and go, right. And then you can be presented with tough situations, fight through them, without the consequence being a real idea in your head. Right, yeah, that's interesting. So when people grow up, however, they grow up, and then they run into a diabetes diagnosis, you find some people who are just like, I'm not going to let this stop me, I don't care what happens. And you find some people who feel like that they run up against the thing or an institution, or in this case, a disease that is bigger than them, and it's going to run the situation for them. And they feel powerless in it. Is that right?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 41:37
Yeah. And that could look kind of like a depressive, hopeless feel, or a more neurotic, anxious response to it, like, I'm gonna over research this, I'm gonna be perfect. I'm gonna, you know, that can be another way of responding to it versus what I think I told you before, I appreciate your perspective of here, right? I'd like more insulin, more carbs, you know, like that simplistic. This is today do any more insulin, instead of either over researching or feeling overwhelmed?

Scott Benner 42:06
Yeah, I feel, you know, of all the people whose situations I get to see from close up and afar, kind of mixed. It's interesting, because they're not right in front of me. But yet they'll share private stuff with me. The people that I end up feeling the worst for are the ones who are just like, tell me how much tell me exactly when to do it. I need to know the number. I know there's a there's an answer in here. And I'm like, Oh, that's, that's, that's bad, because those answers aren't going to be the same in three hours. So you need more of a vibe way of handling this and, and less of a, you know, how it's written down. I mean, it works for some stuff. Like, don't get me wrong, but but those people I feel badly for, because they seem the least flexible. And yeah, that flexibility is so super important with all this. Yeah. Okay. So kind of switching gears a little bit to like, the parenting side are the things that we talked about? so far? I imagine that the answers lie somewhere in that to this question as well, how come some parents come off, like they don't care, and some of them come off, like, it's the most important thing in the world to them. Because they don't also believe that parents don't care. I feel like they get stuck in situations happens to men a lot to where they don't want to mess up. So they go with, I'm just not going to get involved. So I don't make it worse vibe. Do you see that a lot with parenting in general?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 43:37
Um, what would you consider not caring in terms of having a diabetic child? What have you seen that look like?

Scott Benner 43:45
They don't want to understand how to count carbs, or where to put the insulin and they you know, a blood sugar goes to 350 for six hours. And they say something like, it'll be all right. You know, but they don't want to. But if someone comes along a spouse, for instance, and says, Hey, I think if we just would have done this, this and this, this could have gone better than the doctor said, it's fine. That comes off as not caring to the other spouse. Yeah, you know, especially when one yeah, I'm trying really hard and the other one appears to not be doing anything.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 44:14
Right, which is where I think then that can be I think, regardless, that tends to be more about either the individual parent or the marriage. You know, if there's sometimes in a marriage, if one party is the, you know, more neurotic one, the other person tends to maybe go further than even their natural baseline would be in terms of more relaxed to kind of create some balance and maybe that theoretically, in their mind would be for the child's interest of let's just let them be a kid to offset like so. You know, maybe the mom who's measuring everything you know, I think it can pull for extreme behaviors on either end. It might not actually be a not caring parent.

Scott Benner 44:53
Oh, so they come farther out like you for me to person who feels like they're vibrating. Do you know what I mean by that? Like they're so like nervous or anxious or whatever, like, you can almost feel like when you're in the room with them that they're vibrating. And I know that's a weird, but they're. So you're saying that if I'm in a situation with a person like that, I might go to the opposite, like, I might go to the extreme end of mellow to try to make a balance in the room. Yes. Oh, and that happens a lot.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 45:22
Yeah, especially within a family system. I mean, there's what we call a family homeostasis, where there needs to be balanced. And so you know, everyone has kind of has their personality setup. And then based on what the family dynamics are, you kind of go into these different roles to create a sense of balance for the the greater system. And so if there's a super neurotic, vibrating wife, then the husband, who might not be super laid back might feel the need to be even more laid back in that family system to get to that homeostasis.

Scott Benner 45:53
Does the family. Oh, this is so interesting. So is there. So does everybody not necessarily get to be who they are, but they get to be their part in it. So there's an alpha, which probably gets to go first. And then right, and then the spouse acts the part that makes balance between the two of them. And then I would imagine one of the kids probably slips into a role, which could make other children's is my dog acting differently? Because now I am is what I need? Like, would my dog be a different dog? If he lived in a different house? Oh, my God, he would, wouldn't he? Kim, go ahead and read the research. But I would say I would venture to guess Yes. My God, none of us are being ourselves because of who we're coupled with. Well, you're you're the self within your family system. And does that work for situations as well? Like, are some people different because of diabetes than they would be without diabetes? Sure, gotta be, and I don't.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 46:55
Yeah, I mean, I don't think it makes you not be yourself. It's yourself in a situation or in a relationship. And I don't think you have to be compromising who you are. I think that's why it's important that especially in a marriage, each party has their own individual thing, you know, outlet where maybe if there is something that they're, you know, leaving a little bit to the side for that greater good, which is healthy to have that outlet for that part of yourself. But it's, you know, that's what relationships are.

Scott Benner 47:25
Wow, this is great. I wish I would have had decent parents to explain the world to me, this would have been, I don't like, and I don't enjoy learning this stuff when I'm 50. I mean, I've seen it. You know what I mean? Like, I've witnessed it, and it makes sense. I've never had anybody say, yes, that that is right. I just I'm always guessing. Oh, so Okay. Alright, let's find, let's find the scenario here. So if you're in a relationship, or you're married, and your husband's the domineering one, and you're the laid back one in a in a male female relationship, and then the kid gets diabetes, the vibe that the husband takes, ends up being the direction, and then you have to play off that direction. And so if the husband takes a laid back 300 blood sugar's fine vibe, not only do you have to find a way to manage it, but you have to find a way to manage it without pissing off the alpha in that situation, where you have to get to the alpha and change their mind about it. And that doesn't sound easy at all.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 48:33
Right? And it would depend on I guess, the reasoning if the alpha didn't want to take on the blood sugar, due to, you know, for whatever reason, and the other person was willing to take it, then that could just offset it. But yeah, there needs to be an unconscious negotiation that occurs. Yeah, nobody said, You're

Scott Benner 48:56
not really supposed to say this stuff out loud. It's like a dance, right? Yeah, you don't look at somebody and go, Hey, you're kind of an app on this. So what I'm gonna do is like, because that doesn't work what you have to so interesting, so talking is not always the key. Sometimes, I mean, go ahead, but sometimes those 50s ladies knew what they were doing. Right? Like, yeah, you know, in certain respects, absolutely. I'll put beaver in the backyard. I'll make I'll make a high ball for him when he comes home, get them a little chilled out and then we'll start telling them how much the plumbing bill is like that kind of stuff. What about like, when somebody throws it on you? What happens when you're not the alpha but you're also not ready for this thing. And, and someone your spouse is just like, well, you'll take care of it, you're home with them. And then you're you're sitting there thinking like, I can't do this either. Like, what the hell like I got diabetes for not having a full time job. Like that's, you know, II mean, like, how do they get thrown on me, and then you feel overwhelmed, and there's no one to go To this is a disaster Kim, is it true? Is it true that divorce goes up? When you have a chronically ill child?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 50:08
it I mean, it could, it's because of that type of scenario. So if that person felt like it was being dumped on them, and they're not communicating, I mean, really, regardless of what the marital issue is, it tends to often just go back to communication. So if that spouse that felt dumped on, didn't have the either willingness or ability to effectively communicate to the other, that they felt that way, and that they were overwhelmed, and they couldn't find a common ground with that, then it is going to lead to a divide in the marriage that will just grow in something like diabetes, you know, can certainly make that, you know, distance more toxic than some other issues.

Scott Benner 50:50
But so we're having this conversation about like these kind of high minded ideas, but we're not really even far enough along in our evolution to deal with this stuff. Because this isn't really what ends up happening, right? What ends up happening is there's a rift, that will likely make the female feel less close to the male, that usually ends in less intimacy, when you take the intimacy away from the husband that it hits their ego, and then we're just spiraling towards divorce. That's basically what happens to people, right? Yeah, let's say go therapy go to therapy. How many hundreds of years are we away from people being able to understand that as it's happening, like in the moment, because right now, if people are listening to this, they're like, oh, a lot of this sounds familiar in my life, but I don't really, they don't consciously see the you know, what the things happening? They just see, like, we see real top level stuff. Like, oh, we used to have sex a lot. Now we don't as much she doesn't like me. I'm gonna start talking to Kim at work. Like you don't even like that. It just gets very base at that point, right?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 51:59
Yeah, yeah. And it's Yeah, because it gets to be a touchy subject, I think especially like something with diabetes or chronic illness, it's a very heavy subject, and it becomes about the kids too. And it's, it's something that's very easy to avoid. And then days pass months pass years pass, and then it can just get harder and harder to get back on the same page. So,

Scott Benner 52:23
so are people's lives basically, having lost, getting together, getting into a slow unconscious decline. And then either Luckily, or unluckily bumping into something that brings it to the boil.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 52:40
Yeah, I mean, I think I know, general awareness. Yeah. I think it's when you start to feel that way. I mean, that's what makes marriage hard, right, is that it's that dynamic happens, it changes when you have kids, it changes when there's life stressors, it changes with, you know, finances, and then you also individually change after a decade and more and, you know, and that's where it is work, to, to maintain a sense of self and, you know, wanting to be a part of that system. And so, it doesn't have to be a divide, but it just, it often does, especially these days, when life is so busy, and it's complicated. And again, it's very attractive to avoid conversations that, you know, could be difficult when it's just easier to just do the thing and solve the problem and move on. You know, if people, they'll start to have some awareness of, you know, I don't want this person to be around me, or I'm not even gonna tell him about this decision, because it's too heavy, then that should be a little bit of a red flag of something things wrong. And it's, it's, you know, early intervention is very important in terms of marital conflict.

Scott Benner 53:44
The the part I find sad is that as I get older, and I understand things better, that there's no way to go back and do it again. Like, that's the part that's just maddening. You're like, oh, wow, I see when I was 25. What I should have done there, and it's too late, or I see when I was 35. And I did this thing, and it impacted my children. Like, I can't just go back and explain it to them now. Like now they're just gonna have to live through it come into their own situation, and hopefully, do better with it than I did. It's that slow progress of mankind. Maybe you were not supposed to live this long. Like maybe it's not healthy to be able to, like, see what you did wrong. You don't I mean, like, cuz if I would have dropped out when I was 40, I would have had none of these thoughts. And I would have just been like, I did my best. I'm out of here. Whoo. You don't I mean, like I now now 10 years later, you start like getting kind of like thoughtful about it. And you're like, Oh, I see. And by the way, you can't I can speak for me and not all men, but you can't be thoughtful till the testosterone like dies down a little bit. Because until then, you're just constantly just like, oh my god boobs. Like, it just feels like that all the time. I know that space but it really is how it feels like you're just constantly thinking about pretty things or attractive things or whatever your vibe is. And then finally, when that kind of like dies down, you're like, Oh, I have more time to pay attention to other stuff. Now, you're not like on that mad terror to like be connected to somebody physically, which is, I'm assuming most of men's problems, right?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 55:16
Well, I mean, it's the more primitive part of our brain that may be is, is to your point of if we were meant to live this long, and then you can access the prefrontal cortex once that the hormones are settling down in that region. And and then, since you are alive, you get to experience the wisdom of old age. If I could get 100 more years, I'd

Scott Benner 55:35
be a genius. Like, that's all I know, for certain, like, if I kept going at this, I'd finally be like, thoughtful and like, I think I'd be, I don't know, it's just the saddest part of being alive. Is it just as you're figure stuff out? Doesn't matter anymore. No one's listening to you. Just like that old man's babbling about something doesn't make any Meanwhile, you're finally making sense and you can't get the thoughts out. It really is interesting. So what okay? So we've picked through the things that I'm, I find myself interested with, and I appreciate you doing that with me, is, is literally therapy. The only way through this, because therapy really is a speeding up of being alive, right? It's having more conversations where you learn and build and learn and build instead of waiting for those scenarios to pop up in your life. And then actually being comfortable. Because you said something a second ago, like sometimes people don't say things. So sometimes you get to a learning moment, and you avoid it on purpose. But in therapy you can write is that ideal? Yeah.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 56:38
Yeah, I mean, it certainly there's there's other avenues than therapy, but really, then it is kind of just life experiences. Whereas I think, people I might have mentioned this before, but I'll say it again, is I think, being a therapist during this pandemic, for me, it's been very interesting, because I people who never would have gone to therapy are now going. And I think people view therapy as I'll go with, there's a real problem or somebody you know, someone says, maybe you should talk to someone, no, it's not that bad. You know, wait till it's that bad. And it's really not that all that effective or deep. It's just Okay, let's figure out how to stop the bleeding. And then people will just go at Yeah, versus, you know, like, I've never, I've never really understood why I do this, or I keep finding myself in these patterns and behaviors and relationships that are unfulfilling, and I don't know what that's about. You know, and that doesn't seem like a, so you should go to therapy thing, but that is the best reason to go to therapy. And that's where you can kind of get to that, you know, emotional space of being that is a little typically beyond barriers. If all goes well.

Scott Benner 57:43
Can I ask a personal question? Sure. What's it like to have someone come in professionally, and have a problem that you have that you don't resolve? But you know, how they can resolve it?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 57:54
has to happen, right? I mean, it would, it would depend on what it is. Yeah, there were, I will say that this with the pandemic stressors, there was a couple overlaps, where it was like, all of a sudden, people are home all the time. They're, you know, homeschooling their kids, which for me was throwing a worksheet over the balcony. And, you know, those types of stressors were very, it was almost like saying, like, I could say everything, this person just said to someone else, and so I wouldn't see that person. Because you can't help someone when you're in the same space. I believe my coping skills were a little bit better than what that person was presenting with. But still, the next week, she said something in the back of my head to be like, yep, for worksheet over the balcony.

Scott Benner 58:47
Yeah, I'm not gonna charge you this week. So I would imagine it's almost like, it could be at times, like being a sports coach who can't play, right. Like you could run into that situation. Like, I know how to tell you how to run this route and catch this ball, but I can't do it. It's just It's very, the whole thing. Like when this all happened, there were like, people in our town, I was like, they're totally gonna get divorced before this is over. And it happened. Like you could see it. You know what I mean? Like, and, and there's one person I'm thinking of, who said to me, there's no way like this has to end or I'm not gonna be living here anymore. And I'll be damned. He was right. Like it was, I don't know if it was a self fulfilling prophecy. Or if he just saw, like, part of how I've kept this thing together is by not being here all the time. It was fascinating, really was brought a lot of things to a tool boil. That it's really it's sad. It really is. But is it? Kim? Shouldn't we be allowed? Shouldn't we not allowed? Shouldn't we be able to live together in a constant situation like this with I mean, you know, some breaks here and there but like, should a pandemic really cause that many people's relationships to fall apart?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:00:00
Right. I mean, again, it's how you choose to respond to a stressor, you can let it own you or you can own it.

Scott Benner 1:00:07
So then big picture, is it better to hold things inside or sometimes argue and yell and then let it go? For people who aren't going to talk it through?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:00:20
I mean, it depends how you define argue, but better, you know, even you know, parents are often so worried about their children ever seeing them fight. And as long as the fight is not, you know, intense, it's actually better for children to see conflict, and then conflict resolution, if it's reasonable. So yeah, better to air it out than to sit on something like that, that will eventually pass but was never addressed. And then you end up, you know, overly mad about laundry or things like that.

Scott Benner 1:00:50
Thank you. And you don't know why I'm thanking you. But that's how I do it. So I feel validated. Thank you. But I just I grew up in a place where nobody said anything. And it seemed to me. And then what happened was problems looked like leaving. Do you know what I mean? So the one thing I took from that when I got older was, if we have a problem, we should say it because maybe then somebody maybe then it'll work out or even just be expelled. Like, sometimes it's just something you get rid of, maybe there is no real resolution, maybe there doesn't need to be a resolution, maybe it'll never come up again. But you got to get that part out. Like you can't walk around angry all the time. I realized life is just a bunch of T shirt cliches. They're probably the probably the best advice sometimes. But yeah, don't go to bed angry is is a good one.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:01:42
Yeah, and usually when you you bring something up, you, you know, you look behind, I mean, every behavior has an antecedent and an underlying value and intention. And usually, when you air something out, if there are two people who care about each other, you can usually get to a space where you see that the intention is, is good, even if a behavior is not do or the opposite. And that's a bigger problem.

Scott Benner 1:02:07
Ready? I'm gonna ask a weird question. Do you think people ever talk to their, their, their partners, and relay a story about someone else? That they really hope that the partner will take something out of for them? Like, of course, yeah. Right. Like, you're like, let me tell you about Jim, in this one over here. Second, you start telling your story when you're like, really, like, I hope that they hear that Jim was sad, and I'm sad. or, or, or that, or that, you know, that his wife was unhappy, and I think you're unhappy too, or like that kind of thing like I, but they want but that same person would never look at their, their, their partner and say, like, I think this is happening to you, or I feel this, why do we not say that? Because we're afraid that the answer won't be. I love you. And it's okay. And we'll fix it. To people not say what they want to say, because they're afraid they're going to hear you know what, I don't care about this. Leave me alone go away.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:03:03
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that would be a scary topic to bring up. And so I think it's easy for either people to hide it in a story like that or not say it at all.

Scott Benner 1:03:13
So rejection, you don't want to be rejected. Yeah, in that situation. I wonder if we could magically make everyone just say how they felt, if there would still be the same rate of divorce, but it would be the different people? Don't I mean, like, say there's, let's put 100 people in your mind and 50 on the left and 50 on the right. And if we all keep our thoughts inside the 50, on the left, end up getting divorced. I wonder if we all let our thoughts out if the 50 on the left would stay married and the 50 on the right, we get divorced, like I want. Does that make any sense? what I'm saying?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:03:46
It'd be an interesting study, I think. I think that's probably two extremes. Because if you say everything, then that can be a very taxing relationship. Okay,

Scott Benner 1:03:55
so let's finish with that. There is stuff you don't say, right? Yes. Is it mostly you remind me of your mother. Listen, I'm just gonna give a little marriage advice right here. Your wife never reminds you of her mother there, I fixed your life for you. You don't do that. That one's a bad one. But, but there, there are some things that are people's feelings, right? And you and you have to take a hit. So that they don't have to, like you have to have a little selflessness. Like I feel bad about this thing. But by saying it out loud, I'm going to make you feel worse or you're going to feel bad and I'm going to feel better. I choose to feel badly instead of you just have to be some of that like, love. Yeah, yeah.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:04:39
Absolutely. Like if you see, you know, your spouse doing something that you know isn't is out of anxiety or is out of wanting to fit in and you know, that it's, you know, I don't know a little foolish or you just have a feeling that you know it's not best, but saying that would just hurt them and make them feel worse. Used to For debate, you know, if it's not hurting anybody, and it makes them feel good, instead of calling them out in that scenario, you, you support it. Even if you feel like it's absurd.

Scott Benner 1:05:09
That's the married version of when your weird friend in ninth grade wears a fedora one summer, you just let it go. Exactly, exactly. You're just like, hey, Bill wants to wear a fedora. Why don't I gotta say, yeah, let it ride. Okay. What have we done here today? Again, in your mind, have we? Have we put your license in jeopardy? Or? No, we actually spoke I believe I heard you the whole time, which is nice. Yeah, I will explain a second that the first time we talked there was, it's it's interesting, actually, now that we think about it. Now that I think about it, we were having trouble communicating for technical reasons. And you were pretending that it was going better than it was. And I noticed something was wrong, but didn't bring it up.

Unknown Speaker 1:05:54
We were Yeah, we were kind of married there for an hour. And we were, and I need to practice what I preach. Because, oh,

Scott Benner 1:06:02
that just occurred to me, as we were saying, and I was like, oh, everything we just talked about, we didn't do for that hour. So Alright, so let me ask you, can you hear me I heard you say last year, but yeah, let me ask you one other question, then. This is popular right now. Right? The idea of people who, you know, have a standing in a community or in a, in a profession, getting together with someone else and talking about it so other people can hear it? Is it actually helpful? Or does it just is this just filling time for people in a different way? Like, can I actually I know that I can do a podcast about how to Bolus for something, and people can hear it and go back into their lives and make a meaningful change it? Is this something that could actually help somebody? Do you think this would actually take somebody and say, You know what, let me go talk to a therapist, before I get into a bigger problem, or while I do do that, like Can someone hear this and make a change? Is the is the stuff that's going on in your head more difficult than the stuff that's happening in the real world to fix? Was I clear? Well, are there two questions in there? Yeah, I guess there are. The first question is, is stuff like this actually helpful for people? Or was this just entertainment?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:07:25
I mean, I would, I would hope so that wasn't really my intention, I guess I haven't really, ever listened to a professional in my field anyway, doing a podcast. So I don't know what the angle would be. In general, I would say, you know, there's some basic things that people can offer in this format that can be helpful, but likely not too much greater than a self help book or something like that. And I think the process of therapy is something that is, is very complex and personal and really needs to happen just between a therapist and a client.

Scott Benner 1:08:02
So if you heard something in this hour that resonates with you, the next step is to go find one on one treatment, not like try to figure this all out on your own.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:08:11
Yeah, I mean, I'm very biased, but I feel like every person at some point in their life should give themself that gets.

Scott Benner 1:08:19
This is a bigger thing. This isn't like when electrician tells you, you can't put an outlet on your own, but you really can't. But they're just trying to make work for themselves.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:08:27
No, go look at a really uncomfortable mirror for several months to get to know yourself in a way that is is at first uncomfortable, but ends up being you know, it can be very life changing.

Scott Benner 1:08:40
Right. Okay. Thank you. Did we not talk about anything that we should have in your opinion? No. Did you have fun this time? I did. It was much better experience. I'm glad to hear you. Again. I feel very badly that we did it the way we did last time and that I wasn't completely aware. I started saying to you before we hit record, that I'm I'm doing more than just having a conversation like I'm running the the I'm making sure this gets recorded. I'm making sure that it's going to sound good later. I'm trying to think of what the people listening want to hear and mixing that with my own like, kind of in the moment thoughts. And so I might have been a little disappointed. This sounds like I'm apologizing to my wife for not being present. I have a lot on my mind, Kim.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:09:31
That's fine. I beat so then I will own my 50% that I I should have been more clear that I was really unable to have a genuine conversation with you because I was so frustrated with the technology. And I was just guessing what you were saying and I should have I should have realized that that was going to equal negative outcomes. So

Scott Benner 1:09:49
interestingly, you got frustrated about something that wasn't under your control, and then tried to make the best of it. instead of stopping and, and kind of resetting, you were like, I can probably do this. I wonder how often that happens to people in their day? I bet you It just happens constantly. If we all said what we were thinking, do you think we'd all just kill each other? Because, dude, cuz you, you know what people are thinking because they come tell you, right? They paint a scenario. They say, this is what happened. Here's what I was thinking during it. So. So if we all just blurt it out, but we were thinking, would it be bad? Or would it be good?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:10:34
It depends. I mean, I get it. But maybe the first thought could be bad. But usually, if you dig deeper, it can be good.

Scott Benner 1:10:44
Do most people just want to be happy? Is that at the core of what they're what they want?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:10:52
I would say more understood, I think happy is as a hard word to define. I think if people feel connected and understood that happiness is a level of security. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:11:03
I have to say that when I feel frustrated I my go to is no one listens to me. And I'm assuming that's how I felt as a kid. Sure, right. And I, to be honest with you, it was and I've described on the podcast before that I was adopted by really amazing people who maybe were not exactly my equals. And no matter what I said, they kind of stared through me a lot of times. And so I always felt like no one was listening to me. When I guess if I was older, I would have understood that maybe they didn't understand what I was saying. And instead of just feeling like they were ignoring me, I think maybe they were just like, hmm, we adopted this little kid, that seems smart. We'll just whistle and look over here. Like, I think maybe it was more the vibe, but it followed me right into my adulthood. Like that. I do not like it when people don't listen. And to each other, even like it doesn't I don't even have to be involved. It makes me upset when people don't listen to each other.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:12:01
Right? So if so, if you look at that, in terms of relationships, if you didn't have that insight, and you were just reactive to that, you know, and you were yelling at your wife, because she didn't pick something out, you asked her to on the way home, and then she saying my you know, he's a jerk or whatever. And then you're saying she's X, Y, or Z. So yes, if you say we were think right there, you look like a jerk. And then if you were to dig deeper into how come that made you so upset, and then get back to the point of as a child, I never felt heard. And when they something like that happens, they have not feeling heard. That's where eventually when you you speak to what the issue is, then likely your wife would have empathy. And you would, you know, be able to reel that in, but they didn't say, and then it's helpful.

Scott Benner 1:12:46
So you could get matched up with a person. This is interesting. Do you have a couple more minutes? I'm sorry? Sure. Yeah. So you could end up and by matched up I mean, you know, you find somebody attractive when you're younger, and you're like that one, you know what I mean? Like that feeling? Yep. And then by luck, that other person has had a childhood experience that plays well with your childhood experience. Or sometimes you meet somebody whose childhood experience helps your childhood experience and vice versa. Like sometimes you're just, you know, when people say like, oh, the part of the relationship they don't have, and they're the part of the relationship I don't have. And that can sometimes work for people, it's probably not a completely fulfilling existence. But it works. Or but or you could get put into a situation where you both grew up very similarly need the same thing. And therefore neither of you can ever be there for each other no matter how much you want to be. Am I right about those things?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:13:40
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, you can kind of go either way. That's why it's, maybe I get another t shirt saying, but people tend to really marry their, their mothers and their fathers. Because it's, it's what you're drawn towards, because it's what you're used to. And you know how to make that dynamic work. Hmm. So you can avoid that. I mean, you can. But sometimes you don't necessarily, it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

Scott Benner 1:14:04
I don't see it as it Yeah, I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. I'm just wondering, like, you can't consciously you don't know what's happening. Like, even if you wake up when you're 14, you're like, oh, my god, she's a lot like my mom. Like it hits you out of nowhere. It's not like you were going to realize it when you were 19 and trying to talk her into kissing you. Like it wasn't going to come through then. You know what I mean? I know that's an old idea that the boys just try to beat something that girls want. But I'm old. So I realized that's not how it's supposed to go. It's just how I grew up. So we'll have to deal with it as I'm talking. You don't mean like now everybody respects each other? It's weird. Yeah. Just know. And it's nice, actually, like I see. To be honest. Like, I see how my daughter is not boy crazy. And I'm like, that's nice. Like she's not running around trying to make a personality for herself. That's based on how other people feel. about her. And yeah, when I grew up, it was just like you were just dying for a girl to like you. And my son doesn't have that vibe either. Like, he also is not looking for another person to complete them. And it's nice, because it makes it feel like you have more time to really meet people, and find somebody who fits well with you, who you actually, like, instead of the first person who looks up at you and goes, this one's acceptable. You know, like, it's, um, I wonder, do you see growth like that? through generations? Like, do you expect this story to continue to get better as we get older? Like, when you're a 70 year old, like seeing therapy patients? Will their problems be more refined than ours are? Because I'm assuming ours are more refined than our parents were?

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:15:51
Yeah, I mean, I think I think they'll just be different versions. But I think in that respect, it's, it's good now. And when, as you were talking, I start thinking about online dating and how, you know, then there's pros and cons to that. So I think the Pro is in part there is this pressure of the first person that clicks better make it work, because it's hard to meet people. There's this idea that, you know, it's easy enough for it to happen. And in theory, that's true. But then I do think then there's this idea of, there's this buffet of people, and if I see one flaw, I'm gonna kick him to the curb, because, you know, there's always hundreds of other people. Yeah,

Scott Benner 1:16:28
it's funny, I started thinking of it as basketball, like, you know, what basketball looked like in the 50s. And what it looks like today, like professional basketball, like I just thought, like, the game is the same, but the players get more athletic. And then that sort of changes the game a little bit. Like, the more in tune to people will change the dating game, and the relationship game. And it'll just continue to morph not necessarily better. I'm sure there are people who look back and just miss Larry Bird standing there. three pointers uncontested. But now there are like five Superman running around the court throwing a ball around. You know what I mean? Like, it's, um, yeah, either. Neither. It's just different. It's not bad or good. Oh, I'm so interested. I wish I could stay alive forever to see how this goes. But let's be honest. That potato chip, allegory from earlier, that was me, so I won't be here much longer. Right?

Nobody, nobody's perfect, right? You've never met a person that you're just like, wow, this worked out exactly right for them. Or they're No, no. No. So even the people who look like they have it all together just a mess in a way you can't say. I mean, I wouldn't say a mess. I know you're a professional. But I'm not. And so I get to say what have you heard the episodes with Erica yet where I tried to get her to generalize about people's mental health and she won't do it.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:17:53
I heard the first one about I forget what it was about, but I heard the first one where she was on.

Scott Benner 1:17:58
Yeah, she stops me just like you do. You guys are very professional. I say something stupid. And you're like, That's not right, Scott. Don't say that. But I'm just trying to move the Congress. You understand him? I'm trying to keep Oh, yeah. Well, you and I are near each other. We have more of a geographical vibe. But yes. Also interesting why I like talking to Erica, he she and I are like incredibly different. She's very, she's very California. It's nice. Oh, okay. Anyway, all right. Do you hate me after this is over? This is really all I need to know. Where am I done? Okay.

Kimberly Groves, PsyD 1:18:30
No, no, no, this was this was a pleasure. I'm glad that you took the time to do this again. And that it worked out. You're silly. You're

Scott Benner 1:18:37
gonna come back on one day. You mean you're glad this was good? I like Yeah. Hey, I'm not going anywhere. Excellent. A huge thank you to one of today's sponsors. g Vogue glucagon. Find out more about chivo Kibo pen at G Vogue glucagon.com Ford slash juicebox you spell that GVOKEGL Uc ag o n.com. forward slash Juicebox. Podcast like to thank the Contour Next One blood glucose meter for sponsoring this episode. Thank you so much Contour. Next One. I feel like you are that person and that I know you. But I think that's just because of how I talk on the podcast but that's not the point Contour Next one.com forward slash juice box. Check them out. And one second, I'll remind you how to get old again.

Once again, Kim groves is a licensed psychologist. She works at the Center for emotional health Family Care Center in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, and Kim facilitates a free support group for individuals and their family members. This is all ages monthly support group focuses on the emotional adjustment to a new diagnosis, management of the disease finding a new normal and gentle General issues related to living with a chronic illness, it's facilitated by Kimberly groves at support group is free of charge and open to the community. If you're interested, please contact 856-220-9672 in New Jersey, get that phone number, you'll get more details and even be able to register, I have to thank you very much for listening to the show for sharing it with others and for something else. And I feel I'm not uncomfortable. But this is outside of my wheelhouse a little bit. I think maybe I'm from the wrong generation. But I need to thank a number of people who put together a buy me a coffee campaign for me for the podcast. Apparently, apparently, I mean, it's a thing where you just go to buy me a coffee.com forward slash juice box and you can send me a couple of dollars or have a membership and you know, rotates it's it's I can feel how uncomfortable I am saying this, you might be able to feel it as well. number of people came to me and said that they wanted to do more for the podcast and just listened to it. They wanted to add a little bit of money periodically. And they asked me for a way to do that. And this is the way that we came up with it was reasonable to share with other people is very humbling, that people would do this, you please do not need to feel any pressure about this, the podcast is ad supported. And it will exist for free as long as I as long as I draw breath, and I can keep it existing for free. But if this is something you wanted to do, I certainly didn't know I generally appreciate it. I genuinely appreciate it. And I generally appreciate I guess I generally and genuinely appreciate it if you do that, but we threw it up. And I was overwhelmed by the number of people who did that. So as crazy as this sounds, because it's coming from me. It's been explained to me that people want to do this, and that they need an avenue for it. And even though it kind of makes me uncomfortable, I understand that. And I'm very happy that the podcast is such a positive light for people so much so that it draws them to want to do more. So if you do this, I will take the money and let me be honest, I guess I'll pay my bills with it. I'll try to better the podcast with it. I will try to make a make sure that the podcast remains free for as long as possible. But don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you do this or the podcast won't be free anymore. I do not I do not ever want to put the podcast behind a paywall. I don't think there should be even a $1 barrier between you and the show. Anyway, I guess the internet's a different place than it used to be and generations think of stuff like this differently. But I just went on very long to say if you'd like to send me a couple of bucks, buy me a coffee.com forward slash juicebox. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So it is really humbling to think that anyone would be interested in that is is a little overwhelming. Anyway, I've babbled long enough. I hope you enjoyed Kim, I very much did I'd like to have her back again. That's it. You don't take some questions for from you guys and have her back on. I just thought she had a great way about her. I will talk to you soon. Thanks so much for listening. Juicebox Podcast is a it's a passion for me. I'm glad you like it. I'll talk to you soon.