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Scott Benner 0:09
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Episode 395 of the Juicebox Podcast. I met Cameron on Instagram, and by met him I mean, I watched him interact with a number of different topics for a while. And I kept having this same thought every time I saw him. This person is clear headed, thoughtful, I can see kind of all sides of issues. And I liked the way he thought. Eventually I saw Cameron interacting with a topic and I felt like he and I agreed about it. It was how he saw some people using their power, their advocacy. And how maybe, I don't know, it could have been better focused. I felt like it missed the mark just a little bit. You know, it's something I saw online, I didn't really think twice about just noted it and moved on. But then when I saw Cameron discussing it, I thought this would be an interesting conversation we got together and chatted about this. I think I was right. So this goes in a number of different directions. We talk about insulin pricing and how to advocate better for it. We talked about the impact of social media, how some people sometimes seem to misuse it. Really, I just find this to be a very interesting conversation. I hope you do as well. For those of you who enjoy when I get very passionate, you're going to love this episode. If you'd like to find Cameron on Instagram, he is young, underscore gifted and black, young, underscore gifted and black on Instagram. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. or becoming bold with insulin. Alright, oh, a first couple minutes of the show are a little crackly but we fix it. So get through like the first four minutes you'll be okay. I'm Cameron, known as young underscore gifted and black on Instagram. That's primarily where I spend most of my time in the diabetes online community. I have lived with Type One Diabetes for 21 years, quickly approaching 22 years now and you're 30 years old. So you've been at it since you're a little kid. And we had a little technical problem and I asked you once but I'll ask you again, any type one or other endocrine issues in your immediate family or slightly extended family?

Unknown Speaker 2:40
I'm not talking one we do have a few pre diabetics and type two diabetics in my family and and also some hyperthyroidism that runs in my family. But I was the first one to be diagnosed with Type One Diabetes. First one to get the type one well,

Scott Benner 2:57
the the thyroids, a, obviously another endocrine issue. So let's see. 21 years ago, what are we talking right around the turn of the right around? 2000? Right.

Unknown Speaker 3:09
Exactly.

Scott Benner 3:10
Yeah, no kidding. What was it like growing up with type one.

Unknown Speaker 3:15
It was all over the place. To be honest, I think I

Unknown Speaker 3:21
was diagnosed about a week prior to my sister's birthday. Um, so she got bummed out and had to miss her her birthday that year, unfortunately. But when I was diagnosed, I don't remember much other than the last meal that I ate prior to being diagnosed is this fat fast food restaurant called Captain D's. And so we had had Captain D's in the south and, and the next thing I remember is being rushed to the doctor's office being told back in half candy. And my parents telling me that I playfully passed out probably from being told I couldn't eat candy anymore. And

Unknown Speaker 4:07
and so that sort of

Unknown Speaker 4:09
started at all. And so we learned as much as we could in the hospital as they tried to teach you sort of the ins and outs and don't send you home until you can give yourself a shot and I was someone at the time who was very much in needle folk had an phobia of needles and so I struggled with giving myself shots for the longest time. And even when I got on an insulin pump, a couple of years later that that was a struggle for me just because I was not a big needle person. But for most of my childhood, I pretty much had my diabetes or not necessarily hit it but so much as ignored it as though it weren't a thing because I really wanted to fit in with all the other kids. Although every time someone fell and scraped a knee or something they would rent the camera to say can we check their blood on your on your meter sensor uses blood. Of course, the answer was always No. But that was that was pretty much the youth. I think. For me, pump management became really what helped me a lot through through childhood, when I was first diagnosed my first pediatrician, actually, we found out later she she would not give me access to things like an insulin pump or and insulin pins even. So we were using manual injections, even when it's when things were just coming to the market and starting to be more popular. But we later found out that it was only for her patients of color that she wasn't giving that access to. And so we switch quickly switched into chronologist, and one of the best from Children's Hospital. And he quickly got me on to insulin pump therapy, and it helped my management so much, and so so much more and being able to do that. And he also put me in contact with this diabetes camp in Alabama called Camp seal Harris. And so we went there a couple times as a family where I was able to meet other kids with T one D and sort of reshaped my script my the way I live with diabetes for a little while. And it was also the first time I met a juvenile type two diabetic. I was at that camp to okay.

Scott Benner 6:27
Cameron, I want to stop you for a second for two reasons. One, I want to dig into what you said more. But the other is that I still am getting like an electrical sound from me. And I was wondering if we could disconnect for a second and just reconnect and see if that helps. Okay, can I connect on my phone and see if that works? And that was gonna be my my, my next suggestion. Oh, that's so much better. I'm so happy. Perfect, perfect. Perfect. All right. So if you're settled, camera, my question was gonna be I feel like so Cameron, listen to you, I asked you about you. And I told you who I am. And you may not know me, because most people who come on the show, have heard about it, listen to it, or help by it and they reach out or even when I'm looking for people to be on I'll put the word out. But you I went and found you. You're an uncommon guest on the show. Because Let me see if I can make sense of this for you. I'm almost 50 years old. I'm old. Okay. I'm only aware of social media. Because I have a popular podcast. And this is one of the things you do when you have a podcast. I had a blog before that and still do for over a decade. It was popular. And so I was on you know, Facebook and Twitter, we had Twitter used to be huge for diabetes, it isn't really anymore. It seems like that's kind of been taken over by Instagram. So I'm on the cusp of understanding but you still understand that I'm an old man, when I'm talking. Always keep that in the back of your head while we're speaking. Okay. But I saw you on Instagram, and I thought this kid has about three people's worth of common sense. You just really seemed like a level headed thoughtful person to me. And and it's why I reached out to you. So I think you're talking about in the health care of black and brown people. Implicit bias, right? Like, there are some physicians that just look at you see your skin and say, oh, that person won't be able to figure this out, or they won't try hard enough. So it's not worth giving it to them, or they have some sort of a preconceived notion that would stop them from giving you better care. Is that was that what you were getting out when you said you couldn't get like pens or, or a pump?

Unknown Speaker 8:48
I definitely believe that's a part of it. We, we just noticed that that. For some reason, most of the you know, when you are diagnosed with diabetes, as a diabetic, you spend a lot of time in waiting rooms with other patients and you as a kid, and as back then social media wasn't as prevalent, and so parents were speaking with each other and talking to each other. And it just it quickly became apparent to us that all of the patients that were seeing that particular endocrinologist, or that were of color, were still using manual injections. Even though we had all basically asked for insulin pumps that we could discuss what an insulin pump therapy is. Or even if we could use Batman pins were not a huge technology. But it wasn't it was just it was an improvement to using regular injections. And so even when asking those type of things, we noticed that that particular endocrinologist was almost systematically denying her patients of color access to what are now viewed as basic diabetes tech. Everyone we know now has a pump or an insulin or an insulin pen and for some reason that that particular person. And keep in mind this was in the south in an Alabama but overall there's a there are health disparities among the people of color in the system for certain. No, I mean, it's I, it's obvious I have to again, I only can have on who I can have on. But I've spoken to enough enough people now who, you know,

Scott Benner 10:22
who have said the same thing, enough to make it feel like it's, you know what I mean? Like one person says something you go really, maybe, maybe you saw it differently. But then, you know, I don't know how many times you have to hear something before you think yeah, that's, that's what's going on there. It's obvious, and you saw it, and your parents saw it, obviously sit in that doctor's office. And so it just it's, it's unacceptable. Now, in that scenario, you move on, you go to somewhere else, you do better, you're not staying behind the fight. But you do, you are taking your ability to use social media now and, and making, I wouldn't call you a combative person, you're just again, like just a very common sense person. How much of what you're doing online, do you think's informed by that experience that you had when you were a little?

Unknown Speaker 11:12
I think quite a lot of it is informed by that experience. I'm someone who, and I know several people who have had to use access to insulin programs who have had to petition an advocate on behalf of their themselves to their, their doctors. And so a lot of that is really informed by my experience in navigating the healthcare system as a patient of 21 years who just happens to be a person of color, right? And so it's in my advocacy, my online advocacy, because I do partner with a few other nonprofits on the side. But my online advocacy is really drawing attention to some of that. I think, a lot of times we in the online community forget that there's a whole community of diabetics that aren't in that online space that don't meet the same criteria that we meet. While we're busy playing games and for giveaways on social media. There's a person who doesn't even have access to basic things like test strips, and insulin who has no idea that we're on here playing for whatever the new cool sticker to go over your CGM is, you know, yeah,

Scott Benner 12:26
well, I so Cameron, I have, um, the first time I ever spoke in public, I was approached by an organization in the Dominican Republic. And they asked me to come down and give this talk about, you know, how to manage better when you didn't have as much technology, right? Like how to take good care of yourself when you didn't have technology. And I thought, Oh, sure. So I prepared myself and you can imagine was the first time I ever spoke in public, I was over prepared, I'd written things out and I don't read when I'm speaking, I just written things out so that I could read it over and over again, so I could feel comfortable saying it when I got there. And I don't think I was in the Dominican Republic for an hour and a half before, I recognize that my understanding of not having money didn't include their understanding of not having money. I like if there was a scale that went from, in my mind that went from flat broke, to wealthy. They were somewhere so far below my idea of flat broke, I didn't even know to consider. And they and when I got there, I said them, I need to go back to my room. And I have to revamp everything I was going to say because your situation is more dire than I could have possibly imagined. And that was the first time it became really clear to me around diabetes, specifically, that I live in a bubble and I don't even mean that in a bad way. I don't mean like I'm walled off from the rest of the world, I just mean that I only have a certain number of experiences and they inform my reality. And, and I mean, in in full, you know, clarity. The reason I found you is because while i don't know i Cameron, I know that some people worry about being very politically incorrect and, and I don't know if I have it in me to speak clearly and worry about it at the same time. But what I felt like I was seeing was a small band of what I'll call social justice warriors, but in the bad connotation. It's interesting, isn't it? how all these sayings have now a good and bad, like you could be woke in a good way or woken up? ironic way or, but you know, so. So people are out there and they're they're railing against the system. And they and as I see them doing it, I think, you know, some well meaning kids like how it feels to me, you know, they mean like trying to yell at the man a little bit and this isn't fair. And this isn't right. But in my heart, I thought these programs that they're denigrating are helping way more people than they May No. And those people don't have the luxury of sitting around waiting for a perfect handout to come to them. Right. And I felt like you really had a firm grasp of that. I was wondering if you couldn't tell me more about it.

Unknown Speaker 15:17
Exactly. And so I think the program that you are referring to, that I made comment to was the new program that that's been introduced in as a collaboration between several nonprofits and sponsored by some of the big insulin manufacturers that get insulin.org program, that's the one. And what me and several other diabetics of color in lots of color all notices, there was a an outward wave of people putting down this program before even really understanding what it was. And it became almost a bashing of the organizations that put it together. But even more so attacking one individual in particular, who, um, I don't even know how he got pulled into the fight of a celebrity who has type one diabetes, and what his stance is there, but to me, it just seemed as though we weren't focusing on the right thing. And I don't know that that's the right form of advocacy, always, I and the case was pointed out to me that, yes, we as diabetics should hold organizations like jdrf, the American Diabetes Association, beyond type one T one International, we should hold them all accountable for the programs that they do since they're representing us. But the other part of this is yes, but there are people who actually could benefit from the services that are being provided right now. Right. Um, I can speak to my own experience when I was transitioning from my job in Illinois and Iowa to come move to Texas last year, I switched to Cobra for my health insurance, Cobra playing for my health insurance. Well, we know Cobra is expensive insurance in and of itself. And so on top of having to pay for your health insurance, then you're also responsible for paying, if you haven't met your deductible, you're the bulk of your costs for your insulin and for your trips. Well, so I had to locate one of those planes through I think it was Eli Lilly at the time that I was using, just to be able to get a discount on insulin that I was. So I can still maintain my health insurance, for my doctor's office visits and things like that while also maintaining prescriptions. And that's me, someone who has a full time job working 40 plus hours a week, and doing fairly well for myself, as a young man. Yeah. But imagine someone who is working two or three jobs to sustain their family, who does not have the time to Google all sorts of resources, let alone having to parse through Google, what is real information versus what is a scam. And what that means they have everything located in one place for them. So that they can go in and determine for themselves really quickly. If this even applies to me if I can use any of it and then move on without having to spend hours that they don't have searching Google. Or even if we take it to the next step, right? If we thought about someone who is a caregiver, to to a diabetic, say, you have a parent who has just been diagnosed with with Lada and you are all of a sudden the caregiver you have an older child who may be less less capable than someone else who's just been diagnosed with with diabetes. Imagine what it means to have one place where you can go and gain all of this information in one fell swoop, instead of having to spend hours on hours of research trying to figure out how you're going to make ends meet for a disease that, quite frankly, is really expensive to manage, right. And I think that that's what we that's what got missed in the midst of that problem that there are people who there are diabetics who have other disabilities and diabetics with ADHD, diabetics who, with things like multiple sclerosis who can't sit up for a long period of time to function or concentrate for a long period of time to navigate all of these resources and look through all of the things that you can find on Google Where's for this particular program that came out. It's all in one source. And so when I saw that people were attacking organizations and attacking the celebrity diabetic, it sort of rubbed me the wrong way. And it was almost as if this is not the type of advocacy that we need. And it actually reminded me of to draw a parallel It reminded me of what's known as convergence theory, which was popularized, and and that was the other post that I put out on this topic. It was it was this theory that was put out, if I remember correctly back in the 80s. But it's been tied to

Unknown Speaker 20:18
race theory has been tied to a number of other

Unknown Speaker 20:22
theories. But basically, it says that, at its core, it says that the, the white people won't necessarily join in the fight for the needs of black people until they are affected by the same things, right. And so if we both are experiencing a loss of cash flow, then we are more likely to rally together, right. And so when we, when I was thinking about this, it was basically the same thing they were arguing at the celebrity, but this celebrity is not navigating the needs of having to find diabetes supplies, not navigating the needs of trying to afford insulin neither or the big companies that they were arguing with. And so they're looking for our interests to converge when quite frankly, they aren't, yeah, they're not going to converge, at least not right now. And so, that was the other thing that came to mind that you're arguing that at a group of people who have no reason to join your fight. And we can be doing something to actually help those people who need access to insulin, get informed.

Scott Benner 21:31
And Cameron, what it made me and listen, not just in this scenario, to be clear, but in general, when this happens, and the reason you don't hear this spoken about more, is because if someone brings it up and wants to talk about it in what I think is a fairly centrist way with what we're doing right now is we don't really have a dog in this fight. We're just sort of talking about the topic. When you talk about it like that, if you miss speak, speak a word or even if you don't, someone will take a couple of words that you say, make it seem like you're horrible. And then we we fall down the rabbit hole of canceled culture, you know, I mean, this, which I think they used to call cyber bullying until you decided you were doing it for a good reason. And now all of a sudden, it's okay. But, but what but I think about when I see this camera, you're gonna get me all lit up. When I think about what I see this is I think about what Barack Obama said recently about woke culture. And I actually pulled out the the quote here,

Unknown Speaker 22:27
you know, this, this idea of purity, and you're never compromised, and you're always politically broke and all that stuff, you should get over that quickly. The world, the world is messy. There are ambiguities.

Unknown Speaker 22:43
People who do really good stuff,

Unknown Speaker 22:48
have flaws.

Unknown Speaker 22:51
People who you are fighting,

Unknown Speaker 22:55
may love their kids.

Unknown Speaker 22:59
And, you know, share certain things with you. And I think that one danger I see among young people, particularly on college campuses, Molly and I talk about this. Yeah, it goes to school with my daughter. But I do get a sense sometimes now, among certain young people, and this is accelerated by social media. There is this sense sometimes of the way of me making change is to be as judgmental as possible about other people. And that's enough, like if I tweet or hashtag about how you didn't do something, right, or use the word wrong verb, or then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself because man, you see how woke I was, I called you out.

Unknown Speaker 23:50
I get on TV.

Unknown Speaker 23:52
watch my show, watch grown ish.

Unknown Speaker 23:58
You know, that's not that's not activism. That's not bringing about change. You know?

Unknown Speaker 24:07
if all you're doing is casting stones,

Unknown Speaker 24:12
you know, you're probably not gonna get that far. That's easy to do.

Scott Benner 24:19
I can't agree with that enough. And, you know, I see. Like, like, think about it. You're a person who has the time you have the energy, you have the desire for something good to come from your effort. And you don't recognize that you're trying hard like I get with those people are yelling about right. On one level. They're upset that organizations take money from companies that make insulin. They're upset about that because they believe that insulin is overpriced. I get that I see the through line there. That all makes sense to me. Easily in a real conversation I could say to you if my organization is helping people with Type One Diabetes. Does it matter where the money is coming from 100%. Because if the money doesn't come from the insulin manufacturers, you know, it's not coming from somewhere else right? Now, there's problems with that, obviously, and the world's not perfect. But what you forget while you're trying to make the world a perfect place, is that there are still people who can't get insulin. And that's a big problem. So is fixing one problem at the cost of another problem? How is that the right answer? And I think the problem that we run into here is that there are no finite definite answers to big issues. There's nuance, and social media does not allow for nuance. It allows for short declarative statements and and get people riled up. So they like your stuff. And I don't even want to talk about what that probably does to the person's psyche, they're probably cool. I'm doing a good thing. I'm doing a good thing. Someone else like this, someone else agreed with Meanwhile, you're like a terrorist, nobody could disagree with you if they wanted to, you know, so big, because, again, social media, what are we going to get into a deep conversation in a Facebook post, that's not gonna work, you know. But again, what gets lost, people who literally need the services, who don't have access to them who by the way, might not have a phone or a laptop like you do, who might not have the luxury of time in the middle of the day to look through things, you have any idea how many people no camera, you probably don't listen to the show, but but this show helps people in a massive way, learn how to use their insulin in ways that decrease their variability. And their a one c improves their time and range, it makes their life better, it gives them more sleep, it gives you all the things that come with really understanding how to use insulin, right? And, and that's, to me a big deal. Now, I can't do that if I don't take ads, right, because I'm a person and I have bills, and I have responsibilities. And if you want me to put this much effort into this podcast, well, then I have to be able to pay my bills. Still, I can't, I would be nice. I'd love to live in a society where I could just do a nice thing for people. And food would fall on my table and my house would stay warm. But that's not how that works. So I built up a, I built up a listenership, I put some of my own free time into it in the beginning, right? Like I had to build something up. And then I had to have something valuable enough to go out to an advertiser and say, hey, these are how many people I can reach. If you'd like to give me some money to reach them with your message, I can do that for you. That lets me make the podcast bigger, lets me find you and have this conversation, lets me have the conversation yesterday, with a mother whose child has type one diabetes, and Down syndrome, you get in a lot of that conversation, the diabetes community, you're not you get it from me, because I have the time to treat this podcast, like a business. And if you want a place like I don't know, it doesn't matter, any one of those organizations to exist to help people with diabetes, they need funding. And they need bright, smart, motivated people to work there. And those people need insurance. And those people need to get paid. And they have heating bills. And this is how things work. That's all it's not. So it's not so difficult to understand. And and I don't have a lot of time for people who run around and want everything to be perfect, and are willing for nothing to be good until everything is perfect. That doesn't make any sense thing.

Unknown Speaker 28:31
Exactly. And that's a really good point too, because it they really only two business models for a nonprofit, they can either be supported by these, these larger organizations who can who actually want to support them, or they can be funded by the donation of private support, right. And surely, we're not coming down in waves, to be able to find the whole organization that is beyond type one beyond type two and all of their other subsidiaries across the sea, in order to do that, and so that there is that that there's also this bottom line that they have to need to even be able to keep their own doors open to support the mission that they need that they need to do. And that means that they had to take a pivot and step back and their board had to say, you know what, this was our original founding decision, but we're realizing that we need to make a change to our own practice into our own code, then fine, that's what they had to do to do that. And there's just like you said, they're still providing those resources to diabetics who, who often get lost in the background because we don't even think about them who needed these resources. And I think the other piece of this that rubbed me a little bit the wrong way as well as where the missile pandemic. Tons of people have lost jobs throughout this pandemic and loved ones and so that's a whole heck of a Another cost to, or barrier to the excess of insulin for a lot of people. And, again, those diabetics were lost because they're not in the diabetes online community, they don't really have time or the knowledge that it even exists. I mean, even those of us who are there already, we will tell you how many of us who are in the diabetes online community right now will tell you, we didn't even know this was a thing until just about six or 12 months ago, right? So imagine someone who doesn't have access,

Unknown Speaker 30:31
trying to figure these things out.

Scott Benner 30:33
It's been a private thing. I'm sorry, it's been a problem forever. I met a woman named Sheree Shockley 15 years ago, I don't know if you know her, but she has diabetes. And she's been in this space for a ton of time. And she would beat into my head and anybody that would listen, there are so many more people offline than online, that we're not reaching them. You have to reach them. It's why I go out and speak at jdrf events. Because I reach people who wouldn't find this podcast, it is not Cameron, because I enjoy flying to Oklahoma in an airplane from New Jersey. That is not why it's because I get there. And there are four or 500 people who would never hear this podcast before I can tell them what I think about using insulin, they could take that or leave it. But if they take it, they might end up being better off. Those are people who were never going to get reached otherwise. And I really, I really again, I'd have to thank sharees because she was from the middle of the country, she was from a part of the country I'm not from when I again, my bubble. I'm from the east coast, where I live, everyone has a computer, everyone has the internet camera, and I could probably pump up I could probably get a an HD movie, do you with my internet connection in about three minutes, right? I am using lightning fast internet speed, I have a computer that I'm recording on and a television I'm looking at my notes on that's not everyone's life. And and bless her for saying that to me, because I never would have thought that before. And I'm doing my best to reach them this new technology is a little more accessible for people you know, being able to, to to podcast to somebody is, is definitely different. But then you have to have you have to have stability over time. And and and what am I and why? And what do I mean by that? And why what I mean by that is, and Cameron you're young man, okay, but they're there. It's too easy to be famous now. And and I mean that because there's no vetting process. So anybody who can put an account together, or buy a microphone can suddenly broadcast their voice out into the world, right. And I think that's amazing. And I think it's it's wonderful. But what you lose is the vetting process, you lose. Young Cameron, 17 years old in high school says, I think I want to be on the radio one day, then young Cameron has to get into a college to go to broadcasting school to learn about communications. And then he's got to see if he's got a vibe for it. If he's good at it. Does he speak and people listen, can you put a coherent sentence together, see, I'm I'm in all the time that he's got to get out of college, he's got to get a job, it's going to be in a little market where nobody's listening. He's gonna have to do a good job, people are gonna have to vibe with him, he'll move up, he'll move up, he gets vetted every step of the way until he can broadcast his voice out to the whole state, or the whole region, or the whole country of the whole world. takes you 20 years to do that. Right. But now I can just go huh? Instagram. Cool. And now I'm talking to people. All right. And and so you're not vetted in any way not to say that you need to be to speak your mind. I think that's fine. But from the other person's perspective, the person on looking everything looks legitimate. Now, you know what I mean? You get a nice logo, he some good graphics, you're good at picking out fonts, you take some well lit photographs, and you could be Kim Kardashian as easily as Kim Kardashian could be Kim Kardashian, or my podcast looks just as legitimate as another podcast that no one listens to. And you can't tell it's a it's a storefront. It got a nice sign good lighting and there's a nice mannequin in the window with a good handbag on it. This must be a ladies clothing store. That's that. And and but you don't know what's inside. You don't know what it took to get there. You don't know the intention of the people inside. And nobody gets weeded out anymore. And so everybody's voice is bouncing around. And, and and here's the thing about people, and everyone believes in themselves. They believe in their thoughts. And that's good. I talked about this on the podcast a lot. If everybody was always second guessing each other, we'd all just be a neurotic bundle of like goo on the floor, right? Like you have to believe in yourself. But think about that away from this idea.

When we see people in the streets fighting over race, there isn't one side of the street who thinks I'm doing the wrong thing and one side of this things I'm doing the right thing, everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. Now, obviously, reasonable people can step back and see the difference. Right. But the people who are being unreasonable, they don't know they're being unreasonable. they genuinely believe they're fighting for something very important. And that in such big ideas as race, or you know, or, you know, what, why would anyone stand up and say, after George Floyd is, is, is dead? Why would anybody stand up? Like, oh, I don't know, I think it's reasonable, you put his knee on his neck like that. But who would do that? It's a person who has a stake in some other thing. Doesn't matter what that steak is, but they start defending it. And you don't realize until you really step back, that everybody wants to be on the team. It just, it's we're just wired that way. He can't be an Eagles fan of the Giants fan, that's unreasonable. Why not? I don't know. You just can't be Well, sure. You could be, you know, like, why can't I see something horrible happened in the world? And see the nuance in it, instead of just picking some headline side? You know, what I mean? Like, why can't we all just think a little bit and be clear. And and notice that our words, and and, and this fight that we're putting up, it's probably hurting more people than it's helping? I don't know, man. It's just the world can't be what everyone wants it to be. There's how many there's 8 billion people on the planet, almost we all can't make it the way we want it to be. But now suddenly, we can all tell everybody it's not right. And it's never gonna very quick, Scott. Yeah, I'm sorry, can you get to me? I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker 36:40
No problem. I was gonna say really quickly. And that's the whole point of it, I think. We tend to treat everything as though it's so black and white. But my significant other is, um, is a psychologist at a federal prison. And one of the things that she constantly reminds me of is, there's no you did this crime where you didn't do this crime. And so you get here, there's a whole slew of gray that leads to whether a person gets convicted and, and what that means for for their sentencing and their mental health and everything else down the line. And that's that that is the same case here. Like there's no black or white. Right or wrong answer. There's a whole slew of gray in the middle of this and that gray is unfortunately, the people who get passed over a lot of the time. Yeah. And it's unfortunate,

Scott Benner 37:28
we're not actually fixing anything. We're just picking a side that people can agree with. That's all or that you can't you know, that somebody on my side can argue with, right? Like, you know, listen, I go back to the insulin thing again, you don't think I couldn't sit here for an hour and make an impassionate speech about why insulin is overpriced? Of course I could. I could 100%. And I and I may even feel that way. But it doesn't matter how I feel. Because there are companies on the other side that need to employ people and keep lights on and keep making insulin. And I could easily argue the other side, like what do you what do you think's gonna happen? Cameron, listen, let's pick a place you love to eat. Okay, not that place that gave you diabetes, but the other place. And so you're so you go in there and you buy a nice sandwich and a drink and they give you some chips with it. They went $23. Will you sit down? And you go, Oh, no, there's $4 worth of meat here and 50 cents worth of bread and 20 this is only worth six bucks. What's your play here? You're gonna go explain to them how they should only charge you $6 for it. And you think they're going to go? Oh, okay. Yeah, sure. Yeah, no problem. I don't need money. I'm fine. That's great. Or you're making too much profit? Well, who's to say? And then I could, then you can make the argument. Well, what's insulin, right? That's different. It keeps people alive. And then when people tell you shouldn't be able to make a profit off of insulin, then there are other people who might say to you, well, then how do you expect the company to stay open to continue making your insulin for you? Or what other things shouldn't cost any money? Like if insulin shouldn't cost any money, Cameron should heart medication costs money. Right? Where do we draw the line on that list? And then you could say, well, none of it should. And again, maybe i'd agree with you. But that's not how the country works. So go fix that. Don't, you can't yell at the guy making the sandwiches for charging 22 bucks for a sandwich in a hipster neighborhood because people are dumb enough to pay for it. Do you know what I mean? Like he's just playing the handi was dealt and, and he's gonna keep raising those prices on that sandwich until you stop paying for them. And then you go, Oh, well, I can't stop using my insulin. Again. hundred percent right. But you got to go at government about that. And industry at the same time. You can't just yell at the industry because because why not because it's right or wrong, because they're not going to stop. Did you see them saying like, like, no one's just gonna give money back. That's not how money works. It just it doesn't work that way. And so you're getting these companies to pour some money back into help People, that's the thing you want to yell about. Like that none of that makes any sense to me. And, and, and again, let me be clear for everyone listening, I think insulin costs way too much money. And I'm certain that it could be cheaper. I am also certain if you said that to a pharmaceutical company, what they would tell you is they'd spout a number off that they have, it's in the mid 80. Somewhere, Cameron, I don't know exactly the number, this amount of people get insulin through their insurance and have no financial burden getting to their insulin, it's cost them $20, every time they ordered or something like that, that's what they'll tell you. And they'll say, and we have programs to get insulin cheaper or free to those people who fall through those cracks who don't have private health care aren't covered by the government, somehow those people in there, and I believe that number of people is mathematically a smaller, a pretty small number. Of course, again, I could stand here and say if one person dies because of not having insulin, then the numbers too big. And I mean that I genuinely mean that. But but the company, from a company perspective is doing all it can. So you're coming from a social perspective, they're coming from, you know, a profit and loss perspective, you're not having the same argument. And and to act like you are is silly. I just think that I think that change happens from within. And I don't understand thinking that standing outside yelling is going to do much more than raise awareness, and it will. But even at that, what kind of awareness is that? If you have 1000 followers on Instagram, how many people do you think actually see your picture?

Unknown Speaker 41:41
Definitely not all 1000? No, hundred percent not.

Scott Benner 41:44
So. And even if you have a little echo chamber of people who agree with you, and this one's got 600, and this one's got 1000. And this one's got a podcast at five people it's doing this one's got a podcast of 50 people listen to you're not reaching enough people to impact anything. And the thing you're not recognizing that the rest of the world thinks, is there's still only a small percentage of people paying attention. Do you have any idea how many people who are going to listen to this episode don't know what the hell we're talking about? Most of them, and,

Unknown Speaker 42:15
and I mean, to even go off of that I what what also made me think about was we weren't advocating in the right way. What made the civil rights movement of the 60s, so successful. And if you really study Dr. King, you'll realize that he was a master strategist of realizing that you have to really hype up the media in order to draw attention. And so there were plenty of cities that called him in to do a march. And if there was no press there, he would turn right back around and leave that city. And go to a place where they could get the news and have one of the biggest showcases of this is actually my hometown, Birmingham, Alabama. A lot of people don't know this about Birmingham. But Birmingham was supposed to be the Atlanta of the South, the original Atlanta airport, airports, they're always at the heart, Jackson field, airport. Airport was supposed to be built in Birmingham, the investors who were going to build it in Birmingham, pulled out of Birmingham because of what they saw in the media about the Birmingham bus boycotts in the Birmingham riots. And so what made that successful was a number of things. They brought in the media, he utilized the media. And he also realized that he needed to advocate to the government. And I don't think that we've made that connection yet, we need to get a better showcase of what insulin means out there in the media. I mean, we've had a few documentaries here, like diabetes rising and things like that. But that was on public broadcasting station. Not many people watch that if their daily television in the era of Netflix and Hulu, and everything else, right. Yeah. And then the other part of this is our government officials. I've been working with a nonprofit here in in Texas to really plan out what our game plan will be to advocate to our legislators here in Texas in Texas, our legislators meet for five months, every two years. So for only five months, every two years, we have a really short window to get in front of them and say this is what we need. This is what we need you all to pass. This is what we this is our game plan. This is why insulin is important for every diabetic, and why you all need to allow others to be able to get into this space to actually make insulin to diversify the field because right now they're their insulin is basically a monopoly. Yeah, we talked about you're hearing the news, the conversation about Facebook and Google and and some of the other Their digital companies, Amazon and how they are operating in a monopoly. Insulin is in the same category. I mean, it's operating at a monopoly, there are only 433 to four manufacturers who make all the different brands of insulin. While there's no diversity in the market, we'll Imagine if we petition all of our government officials to see this as an issue, if we got media behind us to show that people are actually dying from access to insulin, and that a lot people don't even know that they that there are different types of insulin. And I think that's what struck me. I'm a, I'm a part of a group on Instagram called the diet crew. And one of the things that we tried to do is provide information and advice as we can about our own personal diabetes, to people who may need it. And one of our members actually does a lot to know all of the resources in his region. And so he was contacted by someone who was still using the old our insulin that you know, back in the day, when you got insulin, you actually had to roll it up to mix it and get the right mix of insulin with cloudy insulin irregularities when she was still using that type of insulin, and did not know that there were other types like novolog, in human locked up 200 and all of these other things, and she could even get access, she was worried because she couldn't get access to her normal insulin anymore. And didn't even know that these other things, these new forms of insulin were were available to her. And so, like you said, there's so many nuances to this conversation, there is the white coat syndrome, where we know that people who are less educated are less likely to ask their doctors questions. And so if you're under educated or less educated, you're less likely to actually advocate for yourself to your doctor, or even a question with they're telling you so huge. So those things were

Scott Benner 46:56
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it's a huge problem. And it's not easily fixable. And I didn't mean to cut you off. I just was trying to kind of chime in for a second. But since I cut you off, it's a big thing that we talked about on the podcast all the time. I'm always like, I'm always telling people like I know you were raised right to listen to cops, and teachers and doctors and just believe that they intrinsically know something that you don't know about the world. But you have to ask why when they say no. And that's almost impossible for a large segment of the population. And and whether they're well educated or not. Some people just can't brusque it authority at all. They have no ability to do it. And it's not a it's not an even a shortcoming. They're wired that way. You know, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 47:41
Well, and that becomes another barrier in and of itself to insulin. So many diabetics don't even see an endocrinologist. And so they struggle with getting the prescriptions filled.

Unknown Speaker 47:51
Yes.

Unknown Speaker 47:53
And so I think that we, we just what I saw on Instagram, and I looked on to I tried to stay away from the diabetes online community on Twitter, because sometimes it just becomes too much to me, but I looked on Twitter. And what I saw just, it did not rub me in the right way. When I think about all of these people who are affected in many different ways across the spectrum, that is diabetes,

Scott Benner 48:17
I don't understand. It's my way or the highway in any situation. So like, you know, I see people will advocate for specific ways of eating. And you're like, Okay, well, thanks for letting me know about the way you eat. And I appreciate you showing me how well it goes. And thanks. I know now, that's all you can do is educate a person, right? When they start badgering and yelling and making these like like, you know, scary statements that people like, you're gonna kill yourself. I'm like, all right, you said it already, man, like calm down. You know, like, like, freedom is important, by the way, and I don't know if everyone understands freedom. But once you make one, tiny, one tiny, slice off of freedom, it's not freedom anymore. It stops being freedom, the minute you limit one person, that's it, it stops being freedom that and so you have the freedom to stand up and say, Hey, I use this device and it works great for me and I want other people to know about it. That's lovely. I eat like this. And look how great my one C has been. And I feel terrific. That's a giving thing from one person to another. When you start badgering people, and when you start scaring them, and when you start making them feel like if they should deign to disagree with you out loud, you will gather up five or 10 of your friends to attack them back so hard that they that that you cancel them right that you you shut them down keep them from from speaking their words. You just did the same damn thing to them that you didn't want them to do to you. And I don't understand how we all don't see that. And and I don't understand how people want to even be involved in it. And it just, it fries my mind these people that you're talking about. And and by extension, you know the people that are they're nice people like I don't know everybody Dude, I got like 10,000 people follow me on Instagram, I don't know them. There are men, there are hundreds of thousands of people listen to this podcast. I don't know them. But but they keep coming back and they share the show with other people. And I appreciate that right. And I wish I could know them all. I wish I could. But I can tell. While I don't know them, I can tell that most of them are just good hearted inside, they want well for themselves. And they want well for other people. And it's just, it's a psychosis almost wanting someone wanting so badly for someone to understand what you understand that you're willing to strip away someone else's freedom, someone else's ability to speak, so that you can have yours be the only one left. I mean, it reminds me very much of I don't know how much people paid attention. But during the during the aftermath, when George Floyd was killed, there was a group of people and I don't know the the political background of it. I don't I really don't know who did what. But a small band of people over took a number of blocks, I think of Portland, Oregon, do you do you? Does that ring true with you? Like that makes sense that I might be right about that?

Unknown Speaker 51:34
Yeah, I think I heard something about, okay.

Scott Benner 51:36
Yeah, so they maybe I'm wrong about the place, but a small a small band of people took over a few blocks, they basically just took it for themselves and drove everyone else out. And they're banging the gong for this is what we're gonna show you what freedom supposed to look like, this is gonna be a free place, blah, blah, blah. Inside a two and a half weeks, there was one of them splintered off of the group started, you know, talking about the leadership, somehow, they hunted the person down with a gun and killed them. So these people are telling you, oh, here's how the world should be. It should be free. And we should do whatever we want. And then some guy tried to do whatever he wanted. And they're like, no, not if it doesn't agree with me, you can't do whatever you want. It's the nature of people. Cameron, you're 30. And you might not agree with me here. Everything's power. Some people have it, and everybody else wants it. And that's life. It's life in the animal kingdom, it's life with people. People do not like to feel powerless. Sometimes in the middle, you get very kind people who don't care about power. And they are, they are the most lovely people you'll ever meet in your life. But most people are either have it and trying to hold on to it, or don't have it and are trying to take it from somebody else. And it is again, it's a false narrative. Everyone has power. You don't have to go take someone else's. I can have a popular podcast. And so can you. It's not all or nothing. It doesn't have to be me or you. That's a misnomer. But it's how people's minds work. And I think it drives a lot of this because there are a lot of lovely people who I think could do what you said ban together, make good thoughtful inroads into changing minds and lower the price of insulin. Maybe could because let me ask you a question. If the price of insulin seemed fair, would they have a problem with the words taking the money for the from the companies that make the insolence though? Where would they find something? Or do they just want to be upset? Would they or would they be okay, cool. That seems fair. I think, you know, somewhere in there is the answer. And yet, you made this earlier point that everybody doesn't have access, even like you can't just make somebody jump through 7000 hoops to get their free insulin right? It has to be super simple and easy. And you have to reach them with that information. And I don't know that even that's possible all the time. Don't I mean, like maybe it's maybe everyone's not saveable is is is a bigger problem.

Unknown Speaker 54:12
It definitely could be a problem. And I think, to your point earlier, too, that amongst the a lot of the people that were doing this form of advocacy, I actually had some conversations with some of the men they are genuinely nice people because I didn't one of the things that I try not to do is to put myself in a position where I am just going to be berated and become a target. I like to hold discord have a conversation to understand both sides of the the aisle so to speak. And so in speaking with with many of them, I think we all understood that our end goal is the same we all want people to have access to this liquid that is vital to our lives. Yes. All right. And that that was The unifying effort I just we were just not reaching each other on how and why it's also important to sometimes, I guess the best way to put this is sometimes you have to partner with your enemy in order to to do what to do is right. I think sometimes, it may be viewed as good trouble or Robert McNamara, a former Secretary of State, he was former Secretary of State, if I remember correctly, from my policy days, but he wouldn't say that sometimes you have to do evil in order to do good.

Scott Benner 55:37
I, I know a person who has been in the diabetes space for many decades, who told me once, I will take as much pharma money as I can, if it helps people. If I can take that money and turn it around and help somebody else with it, I'll take it every time, I'll go speak at their thing. If it does this, like they're going to get something and I'm going to get something but the thing I get, I couldn't get without them. The thing they're getting from me they could get from anywhere. So if someone's going to benefit from it, let it be me a person who's going to pass that benefit on to other people with diabetes? And I don't know, I listen, man, I could not afford to do this podcast if I didn't have that. And I don't understand how that doesn't make sense to people. I really don't. And, and you can think of it as partnering with an enemy or not. Listen, how about this, there's three companies that make insulin. You want them to stop making insulin? Because I don't I got a kid with diabetes, I'd very much like her to have insulin. And I wish there were more to your point. I wish it wasn't such a closely held thing where you know, it's a monopoly obviously, although I don't know the legal definition of Monopoly to cover myself, but it seems like one to me. And and I wish that there was more access. Because I think when there's no I think it's I think it's pretty obvious, right? When there's more companies doing the same thing, it creates it, it fixes the price, sometimes it brings the price down, because people are like, well, I can't charge as much for it. But this guy over here is charging less for it. And and that can be helpful. I I just don't understand. I don't understand where you think you're going to get lighting, pitchforks and torches, lighting torches and standing outside with pitchforks. It's a walled garden, you can't get inside of it. And there, there is a way inside. But I feel like it's been. I feel like it's been squandered already. Because, again, you're younger than me. But when using Twitter as an example, in Twitter got really popular, and it and people saw the power of it at first, if you had a customer service problem with any company in the world, and you had enough followers and tweeted that they were a problem, they would literally dm you a phone number and fix it for you. It took it was fascinating how fast that happened. And they'd say, look, we'll fix this for you, will you take that tweet down? That was that was always the agreement. And people knew it. And they pushed like that. And people still think that's how it works, except companies caught on that your tweet doesn't really reach anybody. And that they could ignore 999 of them for the one that was going to go viral. And now it's you're just you're you're yelling into the wind again, because they know they don't have to be scared. To be able to be perfectly honest, all of this pressure only has the power of how the person on the other side feels it. And so it's a little like, What's that? What's that fable about? It's the The Boy Who Cried Wolf, right? Like, like you can't just keep screaming and expect that you're going to get the same return every time. It's you know, exactly. And white noise at some point.

Unknown Speaker 59:03
It is just white noise. And even so even in the screaming, there's not clarity to the screaming either. We say access to insulin. Well, I mean, you could argue that there is access to insulin, everyone who can squander up the money to go by his link and have access to insulin. I think that that's what also gets lost in the overarching conversation too. It's not just access to insulin, it's what if there were an equitable price for every country for insulin, right? What if the price for insulin in America went down, but the price for insulin in Canada and in Europe went up by a small increase to sort of level the playing ground for everyone? That would be huge for a lot of people in this country. So I think sometimes too, and in our aplicaci, specifically for diabetes supplies and access to diabetes supplies, we don't often think about the big picture and what those things mean and we don't have a connection. message and one that's easily understood excess can mean anything. Yeah. Um, but affordability is a completely different conversation and a tiered

Scott Benner 1:00:10
conversation because everyone's level of affordability is different. I actually think of one of the things that I see insulin advocates do that I think is counterproductive to what they want it to be, is they'll they'll, they have insurance, right. And they have their bill in front of them. And I don't know making up a number. Look, I bought three months worth of insulin, it was $11,943. And they take a picture of it, put it online, except that right under that it says, you know, minus, you know, plan or whatever $20 and 15 cents. So you're telling me that you paid $20 and 15 cents for the insulin, but you're really upset because it cost $11,000 if you didn't have insurance, but you have insurance, because that's where that argument falls apart to the people you're trying to make the point to? Because I'm not saying it's I'm not saying it's not a reasonable thing to understand, or that it's crazy, that the you know, pharma company Jacks the price up at the insolence of $11,000, because of some thing that they've got going on with the insurance company that you and I don't understand completely, you know, all that bullshit aside, like, I'm not saying any of that makes sense. But I'm saying is that when you go out side of the diabetes community, or even out, you know, or even how you're going outside, trying to go outside of the community of people who don't understand that your stuff costs more than you end up paying for it, when you have insurance, your argument to those people falls apart immediately, because they look at it, and they say, Oh, well, I guess it's good, you have insurance. And then and then it stops being impactful to them. Now, if you really had to pay $11,000 a month for an insulin, oh, now you got an argument. You know what I mean? But but it's it's a false, it's a false narrative. And, and, to your point earlier, if you're not saying the right things, you're not going to make any headway. You have to say things that actually are meaningful that resonate, you can't just say things that look shocking, or look good in a tweet or something like that, it actually has to be meaningful, because when someone else takes it in, they go, that then that doesn't make any sense to me. You know, it's, it's, you see it in politics all the time, right? They set up this narrative about a person, and you hear him you hear about it for weeks and months, like, Oh, this guy's an idiot, he can't talk or whatever. And then one day you flip the television on, and there is no like, well, he seems to be pretty bright. He's speaking fine. Huh. I guess that wasn't true. And then your brain, lets go of it. And all that point that was trying to be made you about this person being inarticulate, or whatever, you know, whatever. It um, your brain, lets go of it right away. And that wasn't true. And now not only do you not believe that this person is not a good choice. But you now believe that everybody who told you that they weren't, maybe is suspect. And I just think that that's another thing that doesn't make sense to me pretending that you, you know, saying, Look what I would have paid if I didn't have insurance, but you do have insurance. So I don't understand the argument. Find a person who doesn't have insurance show me what they had to pay, or that they didn't have insulin because they couldn't afford it. That's your argument. Right? They're not this this is this is show, you know, I don't know if you agree with that. But it's always struck me as very strange.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:27
I definitely agree with that. And I mean, and to be honest, that they the insurance companies are more so part of the problem than the actual manufacturers to me. Yeah, I can cat I mean, I can give you countless stories of people who have spoken with who you probably have some of your own who have spent time crying on the phone with insulation insurance companies trying to figure out why am I benefits? Move this to pharmacy and this durable, durable medical equipment? And so yeah, I'm that insurance piece is definitely important. I think that's showing the a lot of people try to show the retail price of insulin, but that's not what you actually pay you you're paying what is paid after your insurance contributes? And based on the deal that your insurance has with those companies, then that's what you're paying? Yes. And so yeah, there was some some false narrative going around in that as well. And I think again, that was just another instance of how the person who can't afford insulin got lost in the store. Um, yeah.

Scott Benner 1:04:35
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. Go ahead, please.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:39
No, I was finished. That person who can't afford insulin is nowhere to be found in that store. Because they are overshadowed by this one post about the retail price of insulin when you're actually paying a couple hundred dollars a month.

Scott Benner 1:04:53
Yeah. And so I'm gonna make a point that's gonna sound a little defeatist for a second, but I might just not be smart enough to figure out the right rest of it, but there is the government, and the government makes the rules, right? And then there's the insurance company who takes advantage of those rules. And then there's the pharma company who takes advantage of the rules, everybody's trying to do the best they can with the rules that are in place, then there's you at the bottom, you just trying to get insulin, test strips, whatever you need. So the problem is the rules. Okay, well, then you think, Okay, well, that's simple, we'll change the rules, except the politicians make the rules. And the insurance company and the pharma company are very likely impacting what the politicians are doing. Right. So they're making donations to campaigns or they're supporting people. It keeps everybody keeping the rules in a way where everybody can make money off of it. And you are left the only person in this country who's supposed to have power in this scenario. And you are the only person who does not have power in this scenario. And you can say, well, oh, just vote them out. But the next guy is going to come in, the next girl is going to come in, and then they're going to get a nice donation to their reelection campaign. And then you can say, Well, okay, well, obviously, what's the real problem, then Cameron term limits is the real problem, right? If people were only going to go in and do their do their job for a couple of years, and then could never run again, well, then they'd go in and do good work. You think until all the sudden somebody leans on somebody a little bit, you know what I mean? And, and people, there's all levels of people, man, like, you don't think a politician is never walked down a hallway and heard a whisper come out of a corner, you better vote this way. And then there's a little, you know, I know where your parents is live, that kind of a thing, you don't think the world works. And that's how the world works, my friend. And so you know, not everybody's out there, not everybody's out there with their Instagram account, trying to do the right damn thing. There are a lot of people who see money and want to keep money power, and they're not going to give your money back, because you're going to die. They don't care that much. And and I'm not saying that any of these entities together doesn't care. But I'm saying that when you mix this whole process together like this, there are enough opportunities for a few bad actors to soil the entire thing. And just put you in a conundrum that you can never break free of. And we think we're going to fix that by stopping some people who need insulin support from getting it because we're going to shut down beyond type one, or the jdrf. or whoever else. Like that's the way you're going to fix this problem. It doesn't fix anything, it makes more problems. That's all and maybe this problem is not fixable, my friend, and a very well may not be this this country been spinning for a long time. And I think the ironic thing is, I like to now that I'm older, I can see this, it's a funny thing you can't see when you're younger, is that when I see somebody 30 years old yelling about what's wrong with the world, I think to myself, yeah, I already knew that. In every generation figures that out as they come up, it's almost like you ever ever meet a guy 27 goes, I had a baby. Everything changed. I understand better now. Like, yeah, happens to everybody. But I'm glad today's your awakening day, my friend, but the rest of the world has known about this already. And in and that's what this problem is. And yet, you could make a tiered argument that this might be one of the best governments that's ever existed on the face of the planet. And look at all the problems it has.

Unknown Speaker 1:08:31
Exactly, and I definitely wouldn't. I definitely agree with most of that. And, to me, the real heroes, and the real advocates are those who are finding ways to get insulin to people who need it. And there are several people out there who are doing that I just so happen to come across one guy who lives in Canada and is willing if you know anyone who needs insulin, he's willing to try to ship them excellent from Canada where it's much cheaper to to get it I'm not gonna call his name on here, but those those people, people who are doing that, to me, those are the real heroes, and the real advocates because they're, they're making the change and impacting real people who need real help. And so,

Scott Benner 1:09:16
I believe in that so thoroughly, man, I really do. It's when I started this podcast podcast is almost it's gonna it's gonna start at seventh year in January. And I don't mean seventh season like I put 10 out a year like I put two out a week this thing's been up for it's going on seven years. And my entire goal when I started was that I felt like I had a process in place where if you followed it and it was very easy to understand and kind of implement, if you followed it, you're a one season two sixes. It just is and if you really understand the things that I talked about here with how I handle my daughter, no no diet restrictions, by the way, you can get my daughter's a onesies been in the fives for like six and a half years. It just and it just stays there, I just know how to put her a one c there. And I think other people can learn how to do it too. So that was my goal, right is to is to explain how I manage my daughter in a way that people could hear, take or leave if they wanted to, but at least they knew and that that, that resolved my guilt, you know what I mean, for having this information? And I wanted to share it, I still feel that way. I don't understand knowing something like this and not telling somebody else about it seems wrong to me. And so I think the idea is, is that somebody, then I have people come along go, you can't you can't do that. You don't you can't tell people how to Pre-Bolus That's dangerous. And I'm like, Well, what, you know, like what you mean, they just shouldn't know how, and I'm not telling them what to do? I'm telling them? Look, I bet you didn't know when you put in something doesn't start working right away. And you know, if you use a certain amount of time, and not to go into it all, but my point is, is that the that the machine that was the diabetes community disagrees. Overall, that I talk about stuff like this. And I have my hundreds of millions of downloads that tell you that this is what people want to hear about. Right? And and I just watched this space for so long, say safe, banal things to each other. Like, oh, you know, it's, you know, just just basic baseline stuff, stuff that anybody would notice a do each other like, hey, it's just a number going. That's great. doesn't help me, like it helps me in the moment doesn't help me big picture. You know what I mean? Like, you're not alone, great. I'm not alone. I'm still on the floor, my blood sugar's 35. And I'm scraping to get to a juice box, I feel pretty alone. What I'd like to know is how do I not get my blood sugar 35 happens to me four times a month, like that, to me isn't helping people, and you can pretend to help people. Or you can actually put your ass out there and do it. And I see these people on social media, they're motivated. I think they want good things for each other. I don't understand why they pick a team and act like that teams, the only team, it just, we could talk about this for 10 years, I can't understand that. And I mean, we can make the leap and say they want to be the captain of the team. And so they can't come onto my team and be the captain, they can't come onto your team to be the captain. So they have to start their own to be the captain. And the truth is, we're running out of teams, because pretty much everybody's got everything covered already. You know what I mean? And, and I think that it's just, um, I don't know what it is, if there's some sort of a human failing in there, and I don't think it's on purpose. I don't think it's as willful.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:46
It's this big view of diabetes, even though you hear some people say that diabetes isn't one size fits all. But a lot of people want to view diabetes, as a one size fits all thing. But that's that's not true. That's not true. on an individual level, it's not true on a cultural level, and on a race level, because there are different things that affect different race groups differently. I mean, I was not until my 20s. And finally had my first my second endocrinologist of color before I realized that for me, as an African American male, a one C is not the biggest number that I should be focusing on, I needed to put more attention in my time and range. Because a one C can be affected by my stress, and I operate at a very, I work in a very high stress job right now, the the retention factor for employees in the field that I work in about three years ago, was eight months before they quit. And I've been doing it for 10 years. And so I operate at a very high stress field. And so she recognized that and realize that, okay, for a for you, your agency is going to be on a slightly mild, moderate range. But if you're spending 85% to 95% of your time in range, that's where we want to get you to manage and I and that was my personal diabetes treatment. Right. And I have another friend who her diabetes educator looks at a completely different set of numbers that I hadn't even heard of until just six months ago. So manage her diabetes, and we view this diabetes as one size fits all and think that everyone gets the same amount of training but I think it was one of your podcasts a couple of weeks ago that was talking about glycemic index and a lot of people don't even in the diabetes community doesn't even understand that certain foods require you to give insulin at certain at different times and different ranges right in the mouth. Yeah. And how to account for things like fiber and protein and and caffeine. And so yes,

Scott Benner 1:14:49
you Yeah, getting injured and having sex and not having sex and being upset playing PlayStation you know, many kids bunched up into the 250s playing PlayStation. It's crazy. Exactly. And and no One, no one talks about it that way. And they should and and what works for you is not going to work. Listen, here's what what I feel like I've done here is I have a basic set of tenants that I follow that I think if most people follow them, they'll have better success than they were having. It'll be more consistent, less variable. What you do from there with it isn't up to me. I'm not telling everybody to do exactly what I do. I don't think that's even reasonable. I think there's some people listen to the show. And they hear like, Oh, that makes sense. And I think he's full of these two things. Great. If it helps you, I'm happy for you. That that's it. But at least the conversations being had at a man I had a man on the other day, a 20 year old guy is bipolar. And to hear his story about having diabetes and bipolar disorder, who you think's helping him? You know, I mean, there's, there's no, there's no bipolar disorder, slash Type One Diabetes helper, and you know, how he found the show, cuz some lovely woman came on and talked about her anxiety and that she was hurting herself. And this is what you do, you let people talk. And some people take great things from it. Some people don't, that's it, but you don't, you don't hear someone say something you disagree with. And then dedicate every ounce of your free time into destroying them, because they don't agree with you. And and I'm telling you, if you think you're doing something like that for an altruistic reason, you are fooling yourself. That is not how resolve happens. It just isn't it just makes people more upset. And listen, you want me to bring it into like today and and try to make it clear for you

Unknown Speaker 1:16:43
write down really quickly and just say, dumb it down a bit more than even though we treat diabetes, like it's a shirt size, small, medium, large. But you but we need to treat it like a shoe size. Right? You might be a 10 I might be a 12 or 11. And john doe might be a 13. Right? Yep.

Scott Benner 1:17:02
So it might be a little wider. Hey, what happens when you're left with a 12. And you're right, once an 11 and a half? Exactly which happens. But what I'm saying too, is that when you when you are so forceful with this is the right thing. You turn off people who don't exactly believe you, or agree with you, who are also really decent, nice people. And it, it just blows up from there. Listen, I know, a police officer, who has been a police officer for three decades, and is about one of the most lovely people I've ever met in my entire life. And he attaches his worth in this world to how he helps other people. And so if he flips on the news, and hears people say something like he shouldn't have money to do his job with. He doesn't hear the nuance of their conversation. He hears I gave my whole life to this. What are you doing? I've never been anything but a good person. I've helped so many people, I can't remember them all. I've lost so much time with my own family. My wife worries about me when I'm gone. My children worry about me when I'm gone. I worry about myself. I've heard stories of his life that are that are absolutely frightening. He's done heroic things that I would have run the other way from Cameron. And you may have to, you know what I mean? And and yet the person saying that other thing is making a really valuable point, a point that should be considered greatly. But it's the way you say it, and the way he hears it. That's important, because you're making sense. And he's making sense. And somehow we've all come to the conclusion that he either he's a racist, tall, or those other people don't appreciate his work. None of that's true. None of that is true. It just you can't come at something so harshly. That it's its intention is almost the cause a rift. It's like it's what they want sometimes. And, man, Listen, I've been online for a long time. And over the years, low carb people have come after me a timer to call me like a car pusher because I tell you about a bolus and I say eat whatever you want. I'm not in charge. I'm not your mother. Right? And I have and then you try to you start to learn how to talk to people to de escalate while you're talking. You know, and I think that is a skill that is not only hard for people to attain, it's not something a lot of people can do. And it's damn near impossible on social media. So yeah, man. Yeah. All right. Listen. First of all, you are really delightful. I have to say that right off the bat. I I'm so thrilled that I saw you and then I brought you on here. Because I've been holding this in for like three years. I really have because I thought I just thought what's the point? I'll say this out. out loud, and then somebody is going to try to, you know, make something of it. That's not here. Because for clarity, again, hundred percent, I think insulin cost too much money. I don't think anybody who needs insulin shouldn't have it. I just think that there are a lot of variables. And it is not as simple as make insulin cheaper. Like, it's not that simple it is, and it's not. And you've got all this, you've got the truth on your side, it should be cheaper. And you have to move it in the right direction. But I've even seen people organize well, Cameron, do we talk about this ever, people organize well have great intentions. And as they start rising up the ladder and getting more influence, they dirty up a little bit, and then they lose their way you ever see that?

Unknown Speaker 1:20:48
Definitely, I mean, and it's once you get enough influence, other people start to realize that you have some influence, and then try to buy into that. I think we talked a little bit about it in that when we were talking about politics, and politicians, and that's a piece of it, that we there's really no way to really navigate that. Because of course, the same companies that are funding these nonprofit organizations likely also have lobbyists, who are lobbying to politicians. And so I don't want to I don't want to come on to your podcast and make it seem as though it's a never ending circle, and that there's no way to win because I truly believe that there is a way to achieve in a way for everyone to have access to the insulin that they need to to live. But but on some levels, there are like we keep saying there's so many nuances and so many gray areas, so many different calculations, that we can't just we can't and we won't accomplish just by going and attacking things on our social media. And that's that's just not going to be the way that we win this war. And quite honestly, it's not even a way that we're winning the battles.

Scott Benner 1:22:02
Well, I think the thing that gets lost, if you could see behind that wall, right, of where those people are, who you're trying to impact that, and I don't, it's funny, because I don't agree with this. I just understand that it exists. So let me say that before I start, but, you know, what do they say? If you're, what's that thing, if you're, if you're not a Democrat, when you're younger, you're not something and if you're not a Republican, by the time you're something age, you're not paying attention or something like that. There's some saying about that. And, and what I think is that younger people have the grace that comes with having not had to get a mortgage on a home yet, or, you know, coming, it is impossible to describe what it feels like to get up on a Wednesday morning, when it's raining outside, when you're 43 years old, you've been doing this thing for 25 years, and you're just tired. And you don't want to do it today. But you'd do it anyway. You know, I mean, like there's, there's, there's something that comes with that. And it does make you more fiscally conservative in your head a little bit. It just does, it moves you in that direction, I happen to hold very tightly to my my social liberal ideas. I think they're very important. I don't imagine me changing throughout my entire life. And but at the same time, there are things about freedom and money, that I might feel a little more conservative to people about. In the end, I just think I'm a very kind of centrist person, I think I have views that kind of swing in different directions. I think of them as common sense views, the best I can do, right? But you need young people who are full of ideology to fight these fights. Because they're the ones who can really swing it in another way. And I think they can I think they will. But you have to pay attention to history. What do I mean by that? If the people who grew up in the 60s, the hippies of the 60s, right, they didn't change the world, the way they thought they were going to I actually think I'm not sure Donald Trump might be one of those people from that, from that era who grew up in that space, right? He certainly doesn't strike me as a hippie. So you have to understand that you have a finite amount of time to get out there and be young and make change. But the young people think older people are going to do it. And older people know. They're not going to do it. And they also know that younger people aren't going to follow through. And that's how you get caught in that quagmire. And it just so when you're out there, and you're banging your pots and pans and you're yelling and screaming, everything you're saying is 100% right and 100% legitimate, and absolutely the world would be a better place if you did it. The people behind the wall They're laughing like a idealists. They'll grow out of that.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:07
That's what the social media has done to the young generation. Because not to tie this back, keep tying this back to civil rights. But I see so many parallels between social justice and insulin and diabetes, justice, right. I agree. But we know the civil rights movement of the 60s was carried out mostly by teenagers and college students. Right, within reason their parents were working, trying to make sure that they can still maintain their homes, make make the rent? Yeah. Um, and and, quite honestly, in many cases, afford the bail for their suit for their children or being in prison over protesting. And so it was up to these younger people to carry the torch and to really make make the change. Now, were there some some older people who were sort of enabling them? Yes. But we know most of the groundwork was done by the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. Right, all people in their in the early 20s. And that's going to be the same case here. But I think what has triggered now, it's, we think that we can accomplish the same groundwork that was accomplished in those movements in the 60s and in the 70s. through social media posting. And like you mentioned earlier, the algorithms aren't going to I'm sorry, which says

Scott Benner 1:26:22
it's not the same hard work that's not walking over the bridge and Selma, yeah, you know what I mean, it's not Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:26:29
exactly, it's not going to accomplish the same thing. There has to be some groundwork, there have to be some people who are actually on the ground, helping helping the communities after the after the fact too, because what one thing that we know is, I mean, as much as the media helped a lot of the civil rights movement, members of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which stay in those communities to make sure that everyone did get registered to vote, that everyone made it to the polls, you know, and so there's this this thing that's that we've fallen into where we think that we just hop on Instagram and, and yell at these organizations and epi celebrities, and they will change that, eventually change will come but we keep forgetting that there has to be actual groundwork, helping the people who need the help. At the same time, there has to be us on the ground, making an actual voice and movement that is actually seen and not hidden by these algorithms to a certain small percentage of our population, who may be able to view this thing and neglecting the entire audience who can't see them. And I, I even to take that to a step further, I was having a conversation. I know we're over time. So stop,

Unknown Speaker 1:27:45
stop talking.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:48
Well, I was just having a conversation with some friends in the day. And I don't even know how we got here. But we all asked each other, have we ever met an indigenous person, a Native American person with Type One Diabetes? And it dawned on all of us that we don't, not only do we not follow any on any of the social media channels, but we've never met one in person to be able to talk about it. Well, then that sparked the conversation. Well, why is that? Well, we know increasingly now that there are more adults being while we know that indigenous people, I think the CDC 2019. report said that indigenous people make up a huge chunk of the diabetes count. But we also know that a lot of them get misdiagnosed, a lot of people get mis diagnosed with Type two, right? And so that was driving some of this narrative. And so even in that, like who we have access to, and who we see on a day to day basis, is indicative of this, this whole system of things that are intertwined and tied together that we just don't think about when we're thinking of when we're putting those posts out there about trying to make things cheaper, when there's so many other pieces to this puzzle.

Scott Benner 1:29:00
Yeah, there's, there's Listen, there's macro and micro, right? So there's change that needs to happen. And there's a need that exists right now. And they both need to be addressed. It not one, not one or the other. You can't You can't ignore all of those people who are struggling. And trust me they struggle in ways the one thing I try very hard to remember about this podcast is that I talk to people who you know, either are newly diagnosed and don't know what they're doing and I help them get back together or people who are like, you know, nice white ladies from Ohio, whose kids a one C's are in the low 70s and they wish they were in the low sixes those people right I talked to I talked to people who have insurance most of the time. And and fair enough. That's most people honestly. But there's the other people. their struggles are so much different than you know. I wish I wish I didn't have so many alarms overnight for my CGM. Can you tell me how to keep my my you know, can you help me with my Basal to keep my blood sugar more table. Like, that's very important. I'm not mocking that. But I met a woman in the Dominican Republic whose 13 year old son died of complications of type one diabetes. And the doctor said, you would have thought he was 75 years old. Because he just got diabetes when he was like six, and they just never did anything. That was it was his lot in life to die early. And that was that because that's the best they could do. I guarantee you, and I don't I guarantee you growing up, how many people in your family said Oh, Cameron has the sugars? How many times you hear that in your life?

Unknown Speaker 1:30:34
Right? I've heard it a couple times. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:30:36
But you did. And that even is, like, we can say like, Oh, it's you know, it's cultural. But that's a nice way of saying that people, that black people get diabetes and expect their lives to be shorter. That's not okay. Hey, how's that? Okay. I don't know if you've I don't know how much of this show you've heard. But Anthony Anderson was on here a couple bit. It's probably been years ago. Now I don't remember. And he talked about his father growing up in the south with type type two, and how his expectation was, he just wasn't going to get the live as long as everybody else. And that was that. I don't understand that we don't feel like that's something that could be addressed right now, today, instead of tackling these big sexy problems that score you social media points and make you feel good about yourself that don't really change anything. You know what I mean? Like actually do something that could help mail somebody some Damn, it's probably illegal. But the guy from Canada like mail on the insulin, like, there's a guy who sees a problem and helps I listen, I'll give myself the credit. I see people struggle. They shouldn't struggle. I'm not fixing everything that's wrong with diabetes, but I can I am fixing the thing that's within my control to help with. I'm not I'm not grandiose about it. I'm not I don't think this podcast is gonna turn into something that it isn't. It does exactly what it does. It does it well. And it's really important. And I don't want or need to do any more or less than this. And and maybe you just got to find your lane sometimes, you know. I don't know. Was that racist? Cameron? I don't understand. I'm so old. Like I said sugar sound okay, right.

Unknown Speaker 1:32:15
Now, I mean, I've heard both black and white people use that term in the south. I don't know that if it affects I've definitely heard a lot of Southern white people use the word sugar's back in Alabama, right?

Scott Benner 1:32:28
I was fascinated to hear that Alabama could have been Atlanta. It was absolutely, that's astonishing how how little turns of the screws change things so so dramatically, you know, and maybe that's a good point here, like just trying to help somebody. And by the way, all the people are listening. And trust me, our people listen to the show camera, all the people are listening, there's nothing for you to do. Like, like, I can't point you to a place that's going to go magically help these people that we're talking about. So you're gonna have to have your own idea about how to help. You know what I mean? Like, if somebody needs to hear this today, and it's why I'm doing it. Somebody needs to hear this today and say, You know what, I have a friend in a state house, I bet you I could get them interested in this idea. You don't mean like, it's gonna start like that little spot, you got to start little fires all over the country. And, and that's how that's how you're going to get it to take off, you're not going to like the whole thing in on day one. And I do think, and I really don't mean to come down so hard on people who are of the social media generation, because I actually, I think it's a great generation of people. And I love the way they think and how free they are, in a lot of ways. But I think there's this idea that I can have an idea at noon, starting to count at three, by six o'clock, I should probably be famous or have this whole thing fixed. And if by nine o'clock it isn't all the way I want it to be, Well, that didn't work and I'll move on. Like there's such a feeling of like I talked about it earlier, right? Like you gotta you gotta do something, prove yourself level up, prove yourself level up it takes years not not hours, doesn't take days and take weeks. It takes years to you think this podcast was just popular when I started it. I killed myself to get it to where it is now. It's seriously in and so you got to get out there and do little things that are hard. And hopefully you can build them into something else and help another person and maybe that person will get on their feet and help somebody else. That's the listen you want to hear how liberals think that's how I that's what I believe. You don't mean start little build, give help people up so they can help somebody else up. So the only way it's gonna work. I don't know how you I don't know. I don't understand. People think they're gonna show up and talk a pharma company into losing a billion dollars next year. You're not thinking, you know, the difference between right and what's going to happen.

Unknown Speaker 1:34:55
Cameron,

Scott Benner 1:34:57
what do we not said here? It feels like a lot has been said.

Unknown Speaker 1:35:02
No, I think we've covered a slew of things, we definitely got into the gray, which I appreciate. And I just, I just don't want to leave the conversation with about remembering all of those people who are not seen and unseen and who actually are the ones who don't have access to insulin. Because those of us who cry, we want insulin for all, we're likely the ones who also have our insulin in our hands. And so just remembering all of those other voices that are not on social media who don't have time to do countless Google searches and to sit down or maybe have access to the internet, I think that's something that we didn't even really understand until just recently in the pandemic, where schools had to start parking buses, around their neighborhoods with Wi Fi hotspots, just so kids could have access to their insulin to their own access, instant access to the internet, to be able to do their schoolwork. And, and so we just remembering all of those people who don't have access to the things that we call basic diabetes care, who got left out and all of this messaging and all of this so called advocacy that we just didn't even think about, and it breaks my heart because there are people who are who are literally actually dying, while we are trying to yell on social media when we could have just given someone a spear violence. And and that's that's the fact of the matter.

Scott Benner 1:36:32
What do you think you have? Maybe you don't have a thought about it. But what do you think people could do right now immediately, to help.

Unknown Speaker 1:36:42
I think one thing that we we could do to help is to start partnering with some of our local community nonprofits, that there are tons of local diabetes, nonprofits that need assistance in helping with their, their populations and the populations that they serve. I think that's one thing that I see a lot on a lot of the Facebook groups is I have these old sensors, or these old tech strips, what can I do with them? Take them to some of those nonprofits, take them to your doctor's office, take them to free clinics in your area, because those are all places that can give those supplies out legally to other diabetics and people who actually need them and people who need access to those supplies, right? Yeah. Or even if you're changing insulin from say, humor log to another to no vlogging, you know, you're not going to use that extra fuel. Or think about that when you when you are giving that away. I think when we think about the online and the social media space, think about who's actually in the crowd that you're speaking to, and who's on the panels, these Instagram lives, these zoom panels, these Facebook Live and YouTube Live meetings, or even like you're doing now with this podcast. Who are you bringing on as the guests bring on more people of color, more low income people and more people who are just underrepresented in this diabete, in what has become this diabetes online community, so that they can talk more about the problems that affected them, particularly black women are a voice that is trying to forge their way right now in the diabetes space, because they have a much higher rate of being misdiagnosed and mistreated by by doctors. And so think about bringing them in because they can speak more to those to those stories. I think you mentioned Cerise, earlier, she's she's an excellent one, to think about in that space. And those are just some some quick ideas. But I think ultimately, we're gonna have to start thinking about the bigger picture and not just these snapshots of insulin is high, in cost less to yell to try to bring it down, we need to think about an actual strategy of how we can mobilize and how we can tell the story of Jane Doe and john doe who actually don't have access to this life saving liquid that they need to survive. And who don't even understand that there are differences in the types of influence available. Yeah, I would

Scott Benner 1:39:14
say to not let your voice be squelched. I think that, I think that, listen, you're not a you know, the person listening doesn't have a multibillion dollar acting career, right? You can you can say what you think. And if and if three or four people come at you on social media scrolling, there, you know what I mean? Like, just don't worry about it. It's it's it doesn't exist, it only exists. They're just talking to each other. Cameron started to say something earlier and I cut him off. But the algorithms that that feed you your information on Instagram and Twitter and or not Twitter, but even on Facebook. They these algorithms are made to keep you upset. So it just feeds you stuff that makes you upset and So if someone if you come out and say something completely reasonable, Cameron has said 15 reasonable things here today, I think I may have as well. And I think that if you listen to it in context, and straight through, you'll hear people who just, you know, would like people to put their efforts into good, good positive things that help other people don't lose sight of the forest for the trees, you know, that kind of stuff. But someone's gonna be mad about this. And we're gonna just have to let them be mad. And and you can't, you can't stop saying what you think is right. And by the way, maybe they shouldn't either. Maybe they have to keep saying what they think is right. But I can't, I can't keep watching it happen and not say anything, because it's normalizing it. Right? Is that fear that no one wants to speak up because they don't want to get yelled at or canceled is is normalizing the people who are skipping over societal norms to beat their point into, and I don't know whose head they think they're beating it into. Because, you know, I have round numbers here, Cameron, just round numbers. But I think there are about I think the world population is like 7.8 billion or something like that. Do you know, like 6.3 billion of those people are not on any form of social media at all. Only four and a half billion people have internet access. You know, there's like 100 and I forget what it is like it's over 100 million or something. 300 million Twitter users 100. And some million Instagram users, it grows all the time. But there's like 800 million people on tik tok like 2 billion people on Facebook, it's still only a small percentage. So when you're out there saying that this is what you think is right, you have to understand that most of the people living on this planet, not only probably don't agree with you, they don't even know you're saying it, and they kind of don't care. And so it's they have their own things that they're worried about. They're trying to find their insulin, you're busy off yelling about they need it, they're actually trying to find it. They're trying to pay their bills and clothed the children. And they live in places where there's no internet in their schools. My my brother, when COVID hit happened to be in between jobs, he was leaving one job and going to another one, he had a little gap of time. And so he took a job at the beginning of COVID. Just to kind of busy himself, in between, in between moving jobs, very common. And he takes this nice job at his local school district driving meals around. So even though the schools were closed, kids still had to show up at school to eat. And my brother would show up in the morning, pick up this food, take it to one school, he'd leave drive to another one Dre spent his whole day driving from school to school to school where people would walk through the town to get to their food. And he said that by the time it was time for him to quit that job and go back to you know, his real line of work. He said he wished he could afford to keep taking those kids those lunches, he wanted to keep doing that. He did not have any meaningful idea that he lived near so many people couldn't give their kids breakfast. You know, and and I just think that, I think that we lose track that social media has a way of making it feel like this is the whole world. And when three people tweet at you, it feels like the whole world hates you. But it's three people. And if I told you that three people didn't agree with you, or forget three people, Cameron, if I told you there were 1000 people in the world who didn't agree with you, you believe that right?

Unknown Speaker 1:43:31
I definitely believe what you

Scott Benner 1:43:32
damn right? You it wouldn't stop you from saying what you think though, would it?

Unknown Speaker 1:43:36
No, no. But

Scott Benner 1:43:37
online it does. 10 people tweet at us and we're like, oh my god, I'm a pariah. I have to stop and that's it. And then they're just, it's, it's a, it's a socially acceptable form of bullying for some reason. So well, I say screw that. Let's just do this camera. I'll blow up my podcast right here. How's that sound? And the truth is, I don't think I have I think that all we've said is common. I think what we said is common sense things. I think we're brought to it because of what we saw. But I think that this is a group of people who are not I don't think the people listen to this podcast or on Instagram or Tiktok or something. Overall I think there are a lot of people who are but I don't think most of them are and I'm doing this hoping that you people listening have some real inroads to places that have changed that need you know they can make change whether it's a congressman, a senator, you know something like that. You know, if you have that kind of power I I implore you to use it. I don't have that kind of power. All I have is the power to bring you something I saw on on online. And someone like Cameron who's just very well spoken about it and really understands it from what I think is a is a well earned perspective. Okay, man, exactly. talk too much.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:01
No, I just

Unknown Speaker 1:45:03
I agree with so much of what you just said and I but I don't even know that we don't all have that power as much as we don't realize how much of it we could be utilizing in different ways. One of the first things I did when I do when I'm moved to another state is I call my representatives call me a nerd, call me whatever you want. I have a degree in political science, but I call I called right when I moved to Texas, I called my state and local.

Scott Benner 1:45:31
apologize about that. You were just saying that as you move to Texas, you called your representatives.

Unknown Speaker 1:45:37
Yeah, I think that was something that I do when I move. And I don't know that everyone can kind of can take time out of their day to do that. But those who can, and who actually want to be involved in this fight. One of the first things I did when when I moved to a different state, I've now lived in Alabama, North Carolina, Illinois, Iowa, coincidentally, at the same time, and now Texas, and I called my representatives, as soon as I got here, I just introduced myself to their offices, to let them know who I was, what type of constituent I am, and what my issues are, and just to even just get my foot in the door so that they know that throughout the course of the year, I'm going to be hounding them to hold them accountable for these things. And I think, going back to your question, what could we be doing even small things like that? I'm just letting letting your your local speak, particularly your local officials and your federal officials know who you are. And that you have a cause that that is important to you. And that's one small thing that takes maybe five minutes for those of us who are privileged enough to have a phone to call our representatives to get in and just introduce yourself to their office, so they know their constituents. And so even even the small things like we're, who has the power, many of us who have a cell phone, and are privileged enough to do that, and make that small step, if you're looking to get into the space of becoming a true advocate for diabetes,

Scott Benner 1:47:10
I think that the people who need that help the most are the least paid attention to by the people who can help them. And so they need an advocate, they need someone to stand up and say, you're not paying attention to this problem. And it's a huge problem. You can't, you can't just ignore this over and over again. You have to do something here. And it takes not just one or two but everyone everyone listening to call and say, you know that to make those kind of overtures, and to realize that you're not as much going to be fighting for yourself as you are going to be fighting for someone else. But don't fight for that person in a way they don't need you to do it. That's a that's that's always you don't I mean, you ever, you know, yeah, guy needs to get out of the rain, don't offer him a sandwich. He's, yeah, yeah. This is what I think you need, and is very different from what what really has to happen. And understanding all the intricacies of a number of the things that we spoke about here today is helpful so that your effort doesn't just get, you know, pushed into a, you know, you're banging your head into a brick wall. And maybe just maybe some of these larger organizations have an infrastructure that allows them to understand these things. Maybe they're making decisions, you don't understand as an outsider, that might be the way things are done. And you can argue that the way things are done aren't right. And I probably would agree with that. But they are still the way things are done. And you have to, I think you're you have to, I just think change comes from within. It really does. I don't think you can impact things this big from the outside, unless you have a massive amount of money. And then that money really just buys you access. And then technically you're inside once you make the change. You know, so, you know you're sticking up for people who can't afford things. There's not going to be an outpouring of cash to do it with and it just I think it's the I I do agree with you. I don't want to feel cynical about it. I don't want to give people the idea they shouldn't try. Because I don't believe that's true. But you do have to understand the reality of what it is you're trying to do. You can't show up at a you know, and I don't know I don't I wouldn't run cameras because that seems sad. But I know people do run for fun like they go to like marathons right? You can't show up at your first marathon have it be 25 miles and you know, expect that it's going to take 15 minutes and then when it doesn't take 15 minutes go I guess I don't run a marathon anymore. Like this is a marathon. This is something that takes effort and it takes time. You're not going to fix it right away. That's for certain I I appreciate you doing this very much. I know that I reached out to And I'd had no idea who I was, I don't believe and that I was as shot out of a cannon in my message to you as I may have been today while I was talking, which I imagined could have probably probably did scare the hell out of you and make you not want to do it. But I just feel very passionately about about a number of these topics. So I thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:50:24
Thank you so much for having me on, Scott, I really appreciate it.

Scott Benner 1:50:26
No, I loved it. I'm putting it up this weekend, so people can listen to it over the weekend. I want to make sure about your handle again, and it is young, underscore gifted and black and as a nd. And your names right on their camera. And so people will, people will know that you I just again, I think you are one of the few people that I've seen talk about things that most people don't do directly. And I just thought you did it with a lot of grace. And, and from a common sense approach that I really I very much appreciate. So I appreciate you being there to see honestly, because I don't usually do this. I don't know, I usually don't ask out people who I just met camera. But I'd like to be married to you. You're good people. Know, you're welcome. Can I can I take a couple more minutes from you and ask you like a serious question. You talked a little bit about your about your, your college experience. And is that like, but that's not enough to like, What makes you so clear headed? To just accept that you're clear headed for me take that as a compliment? And then let that go? Because I hear you being kind of like, Oh, no, but but you are. How does that happened? Like, what's your makeup? What happened to you in your life that puts you so like firmly down the middle and understanding?

Unknown Speaker 1:51:56
I honestly I don't know, I guess I would attribute it to my parents, I grew up in a home where I was taught to understand more than just my own opinion and that you can't get anywhere just understanding your own opinion, you need to seek out and learn from other people. My father is a my father and mother are very huge people, person, people, people, I guess would be the way to say much more than I am. But that's just how I was raised. And I think they would call me an old soul, someone who has always been sort of someone who identifies as older than he really is. And I think my friends would even attribute it to the same because in college my nickname was uncle cam.

Unknown Speaker 1:52:48
Five years old on your friends.

Unknown Speaker 1:52:51
Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 1:52:53
And so there's just the upbringing that I brought in, or that I was raised in and then I not to tell too much about myself because I do like to pump up you can hear telling me that my blood sugar's dropping? I did hear it. Um,

Unknown Speaker 1:53:09
you tried to keep a little nut butter?

Unknown Speaker 1:53:14
Yes, yeah. Um, but um, even in my upbringing in and I was brought up in the church and for a long time, I was a young preacher and a junior Deacon. And so I was very much tied to seeing the needs that people in the church needed and, and that also tied to who I am and sort of my beliefs and how I believe that we can help people.

Scott Benner 1:53:37
I well, however, you came to it, I'm, I'm happy you're at it, you should be running for congress one day. And, and I just listened. My opinion is mine. And people listening might disagree with me, and that's fine. But I, you know, I don't I genuinely brusque at calling myself, like an elder statesman of this space. But I've been around a really long time. And I'm accustomed to watching people make a little sense. And then not, and then, you know, all of a sudden, there's somebody I'm thinking of in my head, just 95% of what he says, I'm like, Man, that guy is right on and then the other 5% of is just batshit crazy. And you know, and you're just like, haha, so close, you know, like, he's almost the one and that's just again, my opinion. But, man, I just I felt so good about how you spoke about this stuff. And that I could feel that you were seeing so many different perspectives at one time, and I'll tell you that that's, you know, there's a few things I'm proud of. One of them is that I think I can see things from different perspectives and and give all of those different perspectives my best that I can equal weight, because I genuinely don't believe that everything I think is everything. I just think this is the stuff that I've been exposed to so far. I love this podcast because I talked to so many people People who have experiences that are just so incredibly different than mine. And it's my favorite part of the show, like, I bet you if you asked other people, what's the best part of this podcast, they'd be like, Oh, they talk about management stuff. And it's great not like I love hearing from people. I just, I would never in a million years get to know. And there's so many names that are running through my head right now of people that I've spoken to, and I'm excited about the people I'm going to speak to in the future. I, I love that feeling of growing my understanding of things, because I don't I don't understand nearly enough about anything. The only thing I can tell you about this thing specifically is you need good hearted people with good intentions, who are not waylaid by the trappings of social media, or the desire to be in charge of something or whatever else those you know, it's very, very popular right now to talk about dopamine hits, you know, through social media and phones, but that whatever that is that you get when when your phone tells you someone agrees with me. I've been liked again, you know, like, whatever that is, I shouldn't even make fun of it. Because it's probably a an addiction, to be perfectly honest. But we can't have people motivated by that. While we're talking about serious things all the time, you know, and, and, and I think those people could do good things. And I hope they do, honestly. And I listen, I could be 100% wrong. Screw me. Right. But, but this is how I say it. So I appreciate you coming on talking about it. I really do.

Unknown Speaker 1:56:28
Thank you again, Scott. I really appreciate it our conversation today. It's been awesome. Just a two, one here some validation that me and my small group of friends aren't the only ones who are who are thinking this the same way but but to just to be able to share a glimpse into some of the voices that all often go unheard with was huge. So thank you for that opportunity.

Scott Benner 1:56:51
No, it's my pleasure. It really is. Hey, huge thanks to Cameron for coming on the show. Don't forget to find him on Instagram, young underscore, gifted and black. Give him a follow check him out. Thoughtful guy. His ideas are clear. I love his focus. I love his attention to perspective detail, you know, not just thinking about things from his perspective. And I don't know how much this means to you. But it means a ton to me. Being able to set aside your the things that trigger you in a conversation, you know what I mean? And stay focused on big picture. I think that's an uncommon trait. I think Cameron has it. Plus, he's really good at making food and he puts up really great pictures of it. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 1:57:44
my gosh.

Unknown Speaker 1:57:46
Is that a sourdough bread?

Scott Benner 1:57:49
Cameron, you made a sourdough bread from scratch. It's beautiful. All right now you definitely have to follow him. Young underscore gifted and black. Go find Cameron. Thanks so much for listening to the Juicebox Podcast. We'll be back soon with more episodes. I'll be back soon. Who's we? I'll be back soon with more episodes. Literally just me making this podcast. I'm like, Hey, we're coming back.

Unknown Speaker 1:58:14
We're

Scott Benner 1:58:15
Alright, listen, go live your lives. I'll talk to you soon. One last thing, if anything you heard here today kind of lit a fire under you. And you have access. I know I said it in the podcast episode. But if you have access to people, that can make change around anything that helps people with diabetes, test strips, insulin access insulin pricing, meters, things that people need if you know a congressman or a state senator, anyone with that kind of power, or if you know people who can shine a light on this stuff, that act of explaining this to them could be your advocacy. You could help like that certainly better than ranting and raving about it on Facebook. Small meaningful acts, not huge, splashy things that you think are exciting or, you know, hashtags. I'm gonna, I'm gonna rant and rave about somebody I'm gonna I'm gonna cut somebody down here prove to everybody how, how much they're not doing that. That's not how these things work. That's how it's how people make a name for themselves online. It's It's not how change occurs. change occurs from within. And you know what, even if it is a viable solution, that process of denigrating people to make your point? I don't know. It doesn't seem like a valid long term solution. I think it just makes more enemies. And I think it's incredibly odd to want to create combat between people who are all trying to help us people with type one diabetes. How did that happen? How was their civil war? Everyone wants the same thing. Work together. Are you busy fighting with each other? It's meaningless to waste the time. It's not going to get anybody anywhere. there's a there's a civil way to do things. And it's important to do things civilly. Again, that is really just my opinion.

Unknown Speaker 2:00:24
I guess you could do whatever you want.