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Scott Benner 0:00
This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by in pen from companion medical. Please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. And to Always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. MDI users, this one's for you. How would you like to live your life less complicated? You can do that within pen in pen is a reusable injector pen that has its own smartphone app. They talk to each other through the Bluetooth. that Bluetooth is magic, isn't it? You know what the app does? I'm going to tell you a lot of battle over the next few weeks on these Friday shows. But for right now, dose calculator dose reminders reporting actually tells you if the temperature of your insulin has gone out of range. Not only that, it connects to your CGM. Ooh, I got you there tonight, an app on your phone that connects to your continuous glucose monitor that connects to your insulin pen. Now you want to know more about indepen don't you? Check out companion medical.com Welcome to ask Scott and Jenny. In today's episode, I Scott and Jenny Jenny Smith from the diabetes Pro Tip series and defining diabetes. You know, Jenny, Jenny works at Integrated diabetes. She's a CDE, a registered pump trainer CGM trainer, dietician, she has type one. As a matter of fact, if it was the mid 70s, Jenny would be the Bionic Woman of diabetes care. She'd be Jamie summers. And for all of you who don't get that reference, I hate you for being young.

In today's episode of the show, Jenny and I are going to be taking questions from you the listeners. In this episode, we answer questions about bathing and whether or not that affects insulin drinking and how to handle it. And the third thing not lying to you, I cannot make out my handwriting. Oh, you'll have to figure that one out. I mean, it's only like 20 minutes long. You can do it. I wish I was kidding. That is what just happened. Right? You're ready.

EDAA EDA is editor right EDA at its at a let's call it says this is interesting because I think we kind of gone through this in our exercise episode recently. But she said okay, another doctor rule. When we got diagnosed, we were told not to take a shower and our past post insulin intake is I read this one is that is that true or false? My son's eight years old needs a shower every night. But sometimes we have to alter our night routine because he was given insulin. This is interesting because I think this is a great example of doctors trying to give you boilerplate answers to life's questions. And now doesn't consider that for the rest of time in memoriam Ed his kid is sitting around dirty not go into because he had a snack you know, I get the overall. So I've never really seen it Arden showers in her blood sugar doesn't get low is that because our Basal is right. And she doesn't have too much insulin in her body when she gets in the shower. What is that about it? Because I've seen it happen to where she jumped in the shower and her blood sugar falls?

Jennifer Smith, CDE 3:26
Yeah, it's it's really I mean, it has to do with the fact that in a shower unless you're literally taking like a Polar Bear Plunge which you're in the Midwest, you do in the middle of winter, right, that I guarantee is not going to cause your blood sugar to fall.

Scott Benner 3:42
You guys now have a great image of what Jenny looks like going from her shower to her towel to her bed.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 3:50
So, overall warmth to a site that's infusing insulin warmth creates, you know, it causes the blood vessels to move closer to the surface of the skin. And since that's where we're kind of infusing insulin, you get more vasculature, you get more circulation, I guess is the easier term so that your insulin actions speeds up. So you can get drops in blood sugar now, does it happen for everybody? No, it doesn't happen for everybody. The warmer the water, the longer the time that you spend in the water, etc. I know myself, you know, I mostly take showers now i with two little kids, they really don't have time to lounge in the bathtub for like three hours and read a book so

Scott Benner 4:39
Calgon commercials a lie, Jenny. It's a

Jennifer Smith, CDE 4:41
lie. It's totally a lie. Sometimes. In fact, I've said I need a Calgon moment my husband like sort of laugh in the background like I seriously

Scott Benner 4:50
fight. You know, now that he knows he could be replaced by dark chocolate peanut butter cups.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 4:57
Actually, yeah. Forgot I told you about

Scott Benner 4:59
that. Yeah, get in line and just laugh when Jamie says lamb.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:05
So yeah, you know, if I spend five minutes in the shower, I definitely don't see a change in my blood sugar now is my and I were Omni pod. So my pod is not like soaking in warm fits, you know I'm moving around in the shower, not just letting the shower water hit specifically that place. But for a kid who might be taking a bath, whether the if maybe the pump site is completely submerged in the water, if they're like my six and two year old who loves to like, play in the bathtub until it's literally like frigid, Ice Cube cold. And then they scream when they have to get out of, you know, if that's the case, it may be a reason that doctor is being I've never heard that a doctor actually even bring that up. So I think it's interesting that their doctor mentioned that

Scott Benner 5:51
at all a lot. I've seen this a lot. So,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 5:55
but really, yeah, I think it's interesting. But you know, it's, I think it's a preventative for hey, let's, let's not have you have low blood sugars just because you're taking a bath, but quite honestly, you know, if he's taking a bath, and you're doing an injection and his upper arm, technically, the bath unless he's laying down in it shouldn't cause a drop in blood sugar. Again, timeframe is also a difference there. I have noticed the difference. If I've been sitting in like a hot tub. I'm usually on vacation. If we do that I try to have my pat on the back of my arm so I can kind of hang my arm out of the hot tub and not like boil my insulin or anything. But even so just the warmth of sitting in that much, much warmer environment. I have definitely seen my blood sugar come down. So that's it's not odd. Your doctor was certainly not, you know, just blowing smoke. Yeah.

Scott Benner 6:52
For clarity to you're not saying that we don't want to heat the insulin up because it works better. When the insulins warm. You're saying that when your cells are warm, just like we talked about the exercise.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:01
So absorption is faster and Yeah, exactly.

Scott Benner 7:06
Okay. I like that one. This one's interesting, because I said to someone recently, I have to find a real like professional like drinker to come on the show and talk about how to Bolus for booze, right? Because I don't know but you live where it's called. You must have to get liquored up to get through the winter.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:27
So much. So people probably do.

Scott Benner 7:30
So Jim says what's general best practice considered for bolusing? For booze? I generally don't Bolus with my adult beverages. But what but I'd like your take on this. And then and then Emily came in and said, Yes, I gave up beer for more than a decade because it was so difficult to manage my blood sugar. Lately, I've been allowing myself one beer, but I tend to nurse it. So should I do a Bolus and extended Bolus or Temp Basal? So what are you? I am not a drinker at all, and I don't have diabetes. So I'm out on this one.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 7:59
Yeah, it's very, it's a good question. So in in general, have an alcoholic beverage that has carbohydrates in it, you will require insulin to cover the carbs in it. That's we're not talking about alcohol part of it yet just the carb part of it. So a beer. Most beers in fact, the lighter the beer, like the pale ales and those kinds, they tend to in 12 ounces have somewhere between like 15 and 20 grams per 12 rounds. The darker the beers like the stouts. And the Guinness kinds of things, they tend to actually have less carb, usually only about like 10 to 12 ish grams per 12 ounce. So there's a little card for you, beyond what you'd have to Bolus for. But if you are not a college, beer slam drinker in two seconds to see how long you know how quick you can actually get it down in competition with somebody else. If you're nursing it and it's a social drink. My assumption is that you're probably drinking a beer over let's say 30 Or maybe even 60 minutes. Let's It depends. She brings up a good point. Yes, extended Bolus is absolutely very beneficial there, especially if you're drinking the beverage on an empty stomach with no food with it was that mainly because food would help with the overall just it helps with the absorption that your body is also working on digesting the food and the beer or the alcoholic beverages sort of being absorbed and digested kind of along with the food. So you have less impact of like the alcohol component up front. So you have less tendency to have that drop first, even with a beverage that has carbs in it. But again, in a in a no food environment, just drinking a mug of beer. Essentially an extended Bolus would be a good idea, let's say over 30 minutes even over 60 minutes just depending the other types of alcohol let's say you're just doing something like gin or vodka, or something that really doesn't have a carb component to it. There's no reason to Bolus for it since there's not a carb piece to Bolus for. But does that mean that you shouldn't consider the impact of alcohol at all? No, in fact, conventional pumpers, the typical recommendation that we give is, when you've finished drinking, let's say you've consumed three beers or three, you know, drinks with vodka, that are carb free, or whatever it is, at the end of drinking, the goal is to take your Basal down a decrease of 40% for two hours per drink consumed. So at the end of the night, if you've consumed three alcoholic beverages, three times two hours would be six hours, you would decrease your overall Basal by 40% for six hours. And that helps to decrease the chance of lows, which are the end result of alcohol being processed in the body as a first response of the liver, the livers, that's one of the livers many, many, many, many, many jobs is to process the alcohol out because it's seen as kind of like a toxin, right? So in that same form, then the liver output of what your Basal insulin is supposed to be covering, if not outputting, that drip drip of glucose, that your body is supposed to be being covered by the Basal rate. So if you have lower output, you're not going to need quite as much of that Basal and the alcohol content to then cause low blood sugars.

Scott Benner 11:44
I had no idea. Yeah, and I here's one thing I do know that I can add, even though it wasn't asked, glucagon doesn't help you. When you've been drinking, is that right? Or is it not? It's,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 11:55
it's, it's not as effective, it can be less effective. Yes, because again, the liver is first word, especially if there's a fair amount of alcohol in the system, being one glass of wine. It's very wise if God would be fine, but you know, you've had several drinks and whatever, and you're kind of like tipsy and the glucagon would definitely have an impaired detail.

Scott Benner 12:18
And that's because your your liver is busy with other things, and it's depleted in the glucose. So if people understand or not, glucagon releases glucose from your liver, it's not a magic thing that brings your blood sugar up. It's not it's not Yeah, I don't know if everybody understands how it works. So if you're a power drinker, looking at your friends right before you pass out and saying hey, if I have a seizure, mix this up and stick it in my butt not going to be the only guy and I don't mean in the button

Jennifer Smith, CDE 12:45
all up right, right. It's better to call the better to call the EMTs and you know even in that case, you know, like you brought up earlier with the glucose you know, kind of in the cheek even at that point, something like honey or like a glucose gel if the person is actually carrying something along with them squeezing it in their cheek and actually getting it you just massage their cheek is gonna get absorbed and it'll help the blood sugar you know, faster so those are good options but yes, you know, overall, sure carb needs to be accommodated for in beverages especially if you're drinking the fancy you know, my ties and whatever they are Bahama sunflower, whatever Bahama breeze or whatever. Exactly. A there's a fair amount of carbon those.

Scott Benner 13:33
I think that's from Bahama breeze. I'm such I have probably not Jenny No kidding. I have probably not had the total of a case of beer in my entire life. I just does not occur to me to drink. I don't know why just it's never struck me. Let's talk about the in pen from companion medical, first of all companion medical comm. That's where you go to find out when you get there, there's a little blue thing up in the top right corner says get in pen. If you want to just jump right to the good part, you just click on that. First, I should tell you why you should be excited. If you're an MDI user. This thing is the bomb diggity, you understand. It's gonna help you track your insulin. You know, all that fancy stuff that people with insulin pumps get, you could get that with your pen. Not only that, it talks to your continuous glucose monitor if you have one, and if you don't have one. It's all right. The app still works great. The app, of course is for iPhone or Android. It is completely free. And available right now on the Google Play Store. And on the Apple App Store is it they don't call the App Store, right. They called the iOS App Store. They called the App Store. I think it was called the App Store. It's on the App Store. Let me tell you a little bit about what comes in this app. First of all temperature alerts. It can tell you right it's amazing temperature alerts limit the chance of extreme heat or cold impacting your insulin. And if it happens, the app will let you know Reporting is amazing. The summary of your therapy is spelled out right in front of you. You can share this with care providers or use it as a big picture look to help you make decisions. Do you have trouble remembering to dose your insulin in Penn provides you with an optional dose reminder. Right so you can decide to set up a dose reminder can also remind you to check your blood sugar in pen will not remind you to make dinner. The app has a dose calculator. Now listen, I know a lot of you who are on injections wish you had this because they're on pumps and they're really helpful in pen has it right on the app dose calculator to help you take the guesswork out of dosing. You enter your blood glucose and what you intend to eat. And the correct dose is recommended. It takes an account recent doses to avoid insulin stacking impact it's currently available in the US you can head over to companion medical calm right now to find out if your insurance covers the impact. But even before you get your answer, head to the app store and get the app the apps free. The pen, you know, depends on free, I'm not gonna lie to you. Insurance coverage varies by plan, please visit the get Impend link at companion medical calm to submit your information and find out with a no obligation verification of your insurance benefits if you're eligible for the in pen. Here's a funny one. Because Jenny and I know what we did last week. Jessica, who's another top fan? Jessica, thank you for being a top fan on Facebook says how do we concur? Or how do we handle a fat protein rise? When we know the blood sugar will rise again due to like Chinese food or mac and cheese steaks, burgers, etc? How do we learn how much to give at that second rise? And this one's an easy one for me to answer. I get to say, Go back a month to the pro tip episode about fat and protein. So you probably have heard of an easy answer. Just like yay, we finally got one. We don't have to do anything for Jenny and I just recorded an hour about fat and protein. So we're not going to rehash it here. But you can go find that episode. Jessica will absolutely answer your questions. Let's pull this one might be more like for me. Finally, ask Scott. Oh, yay. Actually, let me say this before I move on. One of the nicest replies in this one that made me feel really good about you know what the podcast does is Jessica said, goodness, you all do such a good job of answering questions that I didn't even realize I had. So oh really great. Like I was like that's that's wonderful. Yeah, that made me feel good. That is awesome. Yeah. So okay, here we go. Scrolling. Megan. Megan says, when you talk about crushing a Hi, can you please give an example in a little more detail. For example, if my eight year old daughter finishes eating 45 minutes ago, had finished eating 45 minutes ago, and she's 220 double arrows up. I either miscalculated the Pre-Bolus, the insulin or both? I love hearing people like they're mimicking the like the words in the pockets really makes me feel like we're getting through to people. How would you determine how much to give? This is Jenny's gonna laugh? Because my answers gonna be so just basic. And if and in how much time? If she's still going up? Would you? How would you When would you determine to give another Bolus, same amount this time, etc. So she's talking about like, how to stop this like a blood sugar flying up? My daughter's let's hear Scott's response. Responses just give her more insulin? How much more? I don't know. But more than you used the first time, that's for sure.

Okay, so this, to me is one of those trial and error things. It's where you have to use the information that you have from the past to make a decision today. And oftentimes, it's information you don't see as valuable. That's why I always tell people, anything that happens. Anything that happens with diabetes is never a mistake. I know things don't go the way you want all the time. But if you you can't step back and go, Oh, I screwed that up, or that really didn't work. You have to break it down and say, Okay, here's what I did. Here's where I put the insulin. And this is how much I did. This is what happened later. That's the information that will tell you next time when my blood sugar's to 22 up how much insulin will stop this. And you know, like and so there is a bit of that Megan, I think that you have to do it's sort of pre work for you know, really kind of breaking down what you've seen in the past now. I can tell you how I do it. But the numbers are there meaningless to other people, right? Like how much insulin I would give Arden to stop a 222 hour show up first of all, Meghan and I don't mean to brag but I don't see a lot of two arrows. But but that I mean might be what you really need to look into like how are you seeing two arrows like how far off were you in amount or timing it could have it should be to arrow should say to you significant miss? Like I really missed somewhere. You know what I mean? Now

Jennifer Smith, CDE 19:59
I can bring in what due to what does two arrows mean? We have a CGM. And you're seeing two arrows. What does that mean? That's a rate of change of at least three points. Plus, per minute. Yeah,

Scott Benner 20:09
it's flying. So

Jennifer Smith, CDE 20:10
it's a quick rise, just to define that.

Scott Benner 20:14
It's at least three. By the way, I know we've all done the thing. We're Dexcom says 215. And then five minutes later, it's like, 227. You're like, whoa,

Jennifer Smith, CDE 20:25
right. Right.

Scott Benner 20:28
Right. So Right. There's two thoughts in here. Megan, first of all, the one is sometimes you know, sometimes the arrows can, you know, throw you off a little bit and I like to look at the pitch of the line. I know that sounds may be strange to people but a a more gentle rising more of like a slope. I describe it as for people have seen the prices, right. It's the it's the, the unity, who the guy goes up the thing and like you're guessing things, and then you know, the fall is little pickup, right? And the whole time you're watching it, you're like, Oh, the little like, is it Switzerland? Is that what I'm thinking of? I almost said Swedish, but that's the Muppets. So it's Switzerland, and he's going up the Swiss Alps, they're in this real steady climb, and you spend the whole game thinking he's gonna stop, he's gonna stop and he never stops, he falls off the edge and you lose. That's what happens when you watch that line to me like that slow growing, but steady upward line that went to me says Pre-Bolus was probably pretty good. Not enough insulin, right? And so because if your Pre-Bolus wasn't really good, you'd be shooting straight up, like, like, and so to me that the line is, the answer is helpful. Yeah. Is it? Is it going up? Quickly, but still on more of a diagonal? Or is it like shooting straight up shooting straight up? You missed on everything? How much more do you put in the back? Like, I don't know how to answer that question. But I would I I've always said on the podcast I start with, when I need more insulin, back in the day, I would Bolus, like what what you would consider to be like life saving foods, like they were going to be eaten. So if I had a juice box that had 15 carbs in it, I'd say to myself, how much would I Bolus for this juice box? If I wanted her Arden to drink it as an enjoyable thing and not drink it as a way to stop a low blood sugar? Whatever that answer is for insulin. I know I can put at least that much in, right because I can cover it real quickly with a juice box. But you're looking at a 220. So in my mind, you're stopping the momentum, you're stopping you're covering a number, you have to account for the amount that's still going to rise before the insulin kicks in, like so you can kind of do that calculation through your head and go Alright, well listen, I think like say 220, a unit of insulin would bring it to 20 back to 90. So I go, Okay, I need a unit for the number. Now. I got to stop the arrows too, right? So I'll stop the arrows that probably going to take a unit. And she's gonna go another 50 points before this thing even slows down because I'm two hours up. That's how I sort of do the math, math math for me. Right. So Megan, I can't tell anybody how much that is? I can tell you the answers more. And I can tell you that you can do it in a way where your safety is how do I catch it on the way back down again. And I think that this is scary for people in the beginning, especially probably with kids or adults who are by themselves. But there's so much to figure out about this. And when you do figure out how to stop one of these things, the information you've learned that leads you to stopping this and bring it back level without a low. It will help you for years. And all other aspects of diabetes. Like when you really understand how to manipulate the insulin and smack that that high blood sugar down. It's It's It's the stuff you'll use forever. I think a gentleman might have a technical answer for this.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 23:58
Oh, well, let me and maybe a little bit more technical, because I you know, from what we all figure out by by experimenting on ourselves, we do. I mean, that's you've figured out many of the things that work for Arden, because of like you said, you do something you see the impact. And next time you're like, Oh, it worked but not quite enough or it worked way too heavy. So let's dial it back or let's dial it up. And while there's not really math there, there is an intuitive math that you're kind of using, right? If you really are trying to use a math to work this issue out. One she's right in considering Well, what was the problem to begin with? Okay, if you're getting a pretty quick rise up, as you said, it's probably the timing of the insulin in the Bolus. My my assessment would also be it's likely that the insulin to carb ratio is probably not quite right either. I mean, if it's still 45 minutes later When the insulin really should be getting active if there wasn't much of a Pre-Bolus To begin with, if it's still shooting up with a double arrow, there was missed insulin there as well. Right? How much one good and very, I guess, conservative way, if you wanted a conservative, you know, look of how to address how much is plugged into the pump. And see what is the pump recommending for this 220 blood sugar. Now, the pump doesn't know that there's a rise still happening, it just sees a solid, like written in rock number, right? And so you can utilize that and see, well, the pump is recommending you know, for a kid, it might be recommending something like point to your thinking will point to God, it's like a drop in the bucket, that's totally not going to touch a double arrow up with a 220 blood sugar. Okay, so intuitively, you know, something isn't quite right there with what the pump is recommending, nor does the pump know that it's still ascending. It's such a crazy climb. So there's where you can learn by saying, Okay, I know what the double arrows mean, the double arrows mean at least a climb of three, possibly more points per minute. So in the next 30 minutes, if you have a double arrow, and you do nothing about it right now, in the next 30 minutes, your blood sugar could be 90 points higher if you did nothing, right. So if you plug that number in as again, a way to use the math that's already programmed in with all of the ratios into your pump to 20 plus 90 Gets you What 310? Yeah, right, if you plug in a 310 blood sugar, and you ask the pump now to say, okay, what are you going to recommend for a Bolus? Now to correct this, you were going to get a more robust recommendation. Right. So that's a conservative way, it's not quite as bold as you would attack it with. But if you're trying to learn, it's a more conservative math way of figuring it out. And learning from it. Okay, you took the extra that the pump now recommended. And now I'm watching and the arrows have kind of angled and oh, it's now plateaued. But this is like that. It's another like 60 minutes that it took, because you took this conservative amount, right? So next time, be more bold, right?

Scott Benner 27:19
Because that can very easily lead to actual stacking. Yeah, so the difference between No, and let's add stacking to our defined diabetes list to that's a good idea.

Jennifer Smith, CDE 27:29
That's a good one.

Scott Benner 27:30
So I, I got some feedback about the podcast once where this gentleman said to me, we the day I said, it's not stacking, if you need it, he said changed his life. But it's not stalking if you need it. So but if you put in, in this scenario that we've built here, if you put in a half a unit, and then wait 20 minutes and put in another half, and then get frustrated, and wait a half an hour and put it in a unit, and now it's fit five, or you know, and next thing you know, you've put in three, four or five units over this hour and a half period, that is that you are going to get low later. But if you actually needed, say you actually needed three of those units. If you took it all up front, right, it wouldn't you wouldn't be stalking you. Because now because the impact of the insulin would be lined up with the with the carbs and what the carbs are doing right now. So the action of the carbs, the impact of the insulin are going to be lined up against each other, they'll get to that fight we talked about, then they'll all kind of dissipated the same time. But But thinking about the idea that insulin you use right now is for later, you keep adding later and later and later it keeps layering over top of itself. Eventually those layers are all going to be on top of themselves at the end of this timeline. And that's where you get low. So I like crashing up front because it also stops stacking it stops slows later. And if you are drifting low after crashing a high blood sugar, they are much easier to catch without loads or rebound highs if you haven't stacked Yeah, if you haven't checked if you stack Absolutely. Now you're stuck guessing how do I feed this insulin and not? Which one

Jennifer Smith, CDE 29:04
is actually which dose was actually causing the drop? So how much do I use to treat

Scott Benner 29:09
yourself a problem is what you've done. Yeah. A huge thank you to in pen for sponsoring this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. I hope you've enjoyed to ask Scott and Jenny as Jenny and I have enjoyed bringing it to you. Don't forget to find out more about in pen go to companion medical.com There are also links in your show notes and at Juicebox Podcast comm I'm going to take the rest of this time to remind you that I have a Facebook page. It's called bold with insulin. It's on you know Facebook, because that's where you keep the Facebook pages. Now there's a public page you can go to bold with insulin but once you're there is also a discussion group right? You got to kind of answer a couple quick questions that get in there so we know who's in there. And there you're going to find listeners from the show just like you talking about ideas about management supporting each other. It's very cool. You should check it out. I'm also on Instagram at Juicebox Podcast the Twitter if any of you are still doing that. Where else I don't know. Pinterest. I'm really I mean, I'm gonna be honest we I don't put anything on Pinterest last thing thanks so much for your wonderful ratings and reviews on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen means a lot I really do like them I say it means a lot a lot. A lot a lot. A lot. I say I say it a lot so I don't want you to think I don't mean it because I really do I say it a lot because I really mean it. I want you to know I also now wondering how many times I can say a lot before the music ends. Oh Joe, jeez, almost forgot. Check out Jenny at integrated diabetes.com Or there's a link in the show notes to her email address but integrated diabetes.com is where you can find Jenny Smith. Let her do the Voodoo that she do on you do a lot