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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1091 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today, I welcome back Erica for another episode in our parenting series and today Eric and I are gonna talk about even more parenting styles. If you'd like to learn more about Erica, she's available to you at Erica forsythe.com. Nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. If you're not already subscribed or following in your favorite audio app, please take the time now to do that it really helps the show and get those automatic downloads set up so you never miss an episode.

Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com All you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout that's juice box at checkout to save 40% at cosy earth.com

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by touched by type one touched by type one.org. And find them on Facebook and Instagram touched by type one is an organization dedicated to helping people living with type one diabetes. And they have so many different programs that are doing just that check them out at touched by type one.org. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom G seven, which now integrates with a tandem T slim x two system. Learn more and get started today at dexcom.com/juicebox. Erica, welcome back. How are you?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:11
Thank you. It's good to be back with John. Well, how are you pretty

Scott Benner 2:14
well, actually. Thank you. I'm enjoying making this with you. And as I told you privately, I'm actually listening to it myself, which I hope people don't think it's weird. But I listened back to a number of these. I'm thinking to myself like wow, these are good. I had the thought that like this could be its own podcast about parenting. So that's a good sign.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:34
Yes, thank you. Yeah, no, no,

Scott Benner 2:36
it's been a pleasure doing it with you. And you've brought so much to it that I never could have. So I mean, I can't thank you enough. Oh, you're welcome. Today, we are going to do more parenting styles. So if you've been listening from the beginning, then you know that episode two, which is really kind of episode one, because the first episode was just us brainstorming what this whole thing would be. The first real like informational episode of this series is called Understanding parenting styles. Today, we're going to do a little more on that. And yes, and I want you to kind of tell people why you thought this next bit was important. So

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:15
I think it's important for us to educate ourselves and understand the theory, I want to focus on attachment theory primarily. Because oftentimes, we we are raised, you know, starting off as a newborn and infant there is an attachment style that you as a parent and you as also the infant are exposed to and oftentimes we are unaware of the term. So I think it's helpful just first and to educate ourselves and bring us to an awareness of what those styles are. And probably most of us have heard or these before, but also that they can manifest themselves as an adult in your in your romantic relationships. And I also wanted to talk about gentle parenting, which you most of you probably have seen on social media has become this kind of big movement. I think it's important for us to speak to that a little bit as well.

Scott Benner 4:12
Erica, at the end of this hour, am I going to find out why I like feet. I was gonna say but I don't like feet. But what am I going to? What am I going to learn about myself while we're talking? I'm scared.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:26
Yes, maybe or why or why feet make you nervous or what?

Scott Benner 4:29
Okay, all right. Let's get into it. Now. I can't wait to find out why what I think is attractive is attractive. This is this is gonna be upsetting. It's gonna be something about my mom, isn't it? Okay. Hold on. Give me a second. Give me a second to get ready for that in my mind. So where do we start with attachment parenting and attachment theory? Do we kind of want to go over those?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:52
Yes, I think that's great. So attachment. We probably have all heard the word attachment. It's the points as a parent. And I think it's really important to distinguish that attachment parenting is different than attachment theory. And so starting with attachment parenting. This was developed by pediatrician William Sears and registered nurse, nurse, Martha Sears in the 80s 1980s. And I know that their book became really popular in the 80s. And they were specifically advocating for this collection of seven practices that they called the baby bees. Shall I list them? So birth bonding, breastfeeding, baby, we're wearing bedding close to the baby belief in the baby's cry, balance and boundaries. And beware of baby trainers.

Scott Benner 5:54
Some of them some of them jump out at me as being obvious, but I don't think babywearing means turning the baby into a suit coat. So what does all this what does all this mean?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:02
Yes, so this was kind of in response to maybe more of a kind of strict authoritarian movement of you know, parents know best in you know, I'm stereotyping in the 50s 60s and, and then an evolution in the 70s and 80s There was this response to No, you need to really be connected to your baby, literally, you know, physically any way you can. And so yes, birth bonding that's you know, when we you know, skin to skin, like do you want in the hospital, but the baby on on the mother's chest, breastfeeding baby wearing, you're wearing, there's a huge growth and the, oh my goodness, you know, the slings and the baby carriers, betting close to the baby, you know, having cosleeping belief in the baby's cry if the baby's crying, go meet the need immediately, having balance and boundaries. So also having an understanding that you can't always meet all of the needs, but there really was a strong emphasis on always responding to the baby's cry. And then beware of baby trainers. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure there must have been an influx of baby training going on, you know, in home and house hiring like poachers, but yeah, oh, okay.

Scott Benner 7:21
I think so William Sears would have would have come up in the 40s. Right, he would have done his formative years through the 40s 1940s. And he would have been a teen in the 1950s. Yes, yeah. Okay. So yeah, so that means that it mean, it must mean that his theories are rooted in, in what he experienced and what he was, took his education and then applied back to himself and said, Here's what I think I needed. Is that fair? Like, you know, I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 7:50
think that's fair. Yes, yes. And I think I wanted to start with this most recent style, because that's what I think people think of in creating a secure attachment.

Scott Benner 8:01
Today's episode of the podcast is sponsored by Dexcom. And I'd like to take this opportunity to tell you a little bit about the continuous glucose monitor that my daughter wears the Dexcom G seven, the Dexcom G seven is small, it is accurate and it is easy to use and wear. Arden has been wearing a Dexcom G seven since almost day one when they came out, and she's having a fantastic experience with it. We love the G six but man is the G seven small, the profile so much closer to your body, the weight, you can't really feel it, and that's coming from me. And I've worn one. I've worn a G six I've worn a g7 I found both of the experiences to be lovely. But my gosh, is that g7 Tiny and the accuracy has been fantastic Arden's Awan C's are right where we expect them to be. And we actually use the Dexcom clarity app to keep track of those things. That app is built right in to Arden's Dexcom G seven app on her iPhone. Oh, did you not know about that, you can use an iPhone or an Android device to see your Dexcom data. If you have a compatible phone, your Dexcom goes right to the Dexcom app, you don't have to carry the receiver. But if you don't want to use the phone, that's fine. Use the Dexcom receiver, it's up to you. Choice is yours with Dexcom dexcom.com/juicebox.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 9:24
That you have to you have you know breast is best that whole movement, you have to breastfeed you have to co sleep you have to do skin to skin in order to create a very secure attachment between the baby and the caregiver. And what this led to is that most guilt ridden mothers who just could not maintain this type of connection all of the time. And so they had this theory that everyone's reading their book, and thinking this is what I have to do to be an ideal mother and then the reality As they're exhausted, and the babies, you know, they're feeling like the baby's needs aren't being met. So they are leading into their own shame. And what research has come out to explain or kind of prove that following the baby bees didn't predict secure attachment. And so that's where, and I think, well, now we can go back to what is attachment theory. But that's where I think people are like, wait, I have to do all these things to create the secure attachment my baby, but I can't do it all. I must be a terrible mother.

Scott Benner 10:33
Okay. Long term. It didn't prove out to be that completely valuable. Correct. Okay, great,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:38
then we'll we'll go into some, some explanations.

Scott Benner 10:42
Yeah, please, I'm, I'm listening to you on this one. So go ahead and keep guys questions when I have them.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 10:48
So, actual attachment theory was developed by John Bowlby in the 1930s. He was a psychoanalyst, psychologist, and he was in England. And then Mary Farnsworth who was from America, she joined him in the 1950s. And together based on lots of observations, scientific, you know, research and analysis, they created this attachment theory. And what it basically what they through kind of observing, they would observe babies, and usually mothers or their primary caregivers in in rooms. And they would notice that some of the children's beat babies behaviors, they could start kind of categorizing when the mom left the room, would they cry for a little bit? And then start playing again? Would they scream and run after? or crawl after the mom? Or would they totally ignore the mom? And not like not even really care? And then they would also observe how do the babies respond when the mother re enters the room? Are they are they avoided? Are they ambivalent? Or do they kind of reach up and say, like, Mommy, you know, hug me. So through that, they developed a theory of attachment and basically came up with that the secure attachment is formed when the caregivers are responsive to the to the baby's needs, they're warm, they're loving, they're emotionally available. And then, and then as a result, babies understand that the caregiver can handle their feelings, they feel secure, and knowing that the caregiver will be there. And in a truly formed secure attachment. They also know that they can handle stress, so that if when the mother leaves, the baby responds, like, Oh, I'm gonna miss my mom, I'm gonna cry. And I'm verbalizing obviously, what mostly they've thought through their expressions, I'm gonna cry a little bit, but then I'm gonna go back to my own thing, and I'm gonna start playing, I'm going to be okay. And then when mom comes back, I'm going to want to reconnect with her. And so through all of this research, they learned that okay to have a secure attachment between the caregiver and in the initial research, it was mother and baby, but now they have seen the US as any kind of primary caregiver could be grandparent, father. Yeah, anything. So in the secure attachment, we chain, caregiver and baby, they're really wanting to through your emotional regulation and attentiveness to the attunement to the baby's needs, you are providing that sense of safety and security, you're helping regulate the baby's emotions, right. So if they're crying, you're meeting their needs. But sometimes it's not like immediate, there's always that discussion of like, Did you let your baby cry for one minute or five minutes or 10 minutes? To kind of understanding the cries? This is all like, through attunement, right? of maybe the baby's just fussy, or is the baby hungry? Is it tired, and you're also being able to respond to the baby's expressions and validating their expressions. And, ultimately, one of them to feel secure that my kid that the caregiver is going to be there for them, but also learning how to handle distress, and then being able to cope with that a little bit? Yeah, that's a lot. Sorry. No, no,

Scott Benner 14:15
I wonder how I mean, everybody's different. And every babies are different, too. They have personalities. And I mean, I have two kids, and you could hear cry, there's pain, when they cry, there's distress, there's anger, like you can hear all that, you know, as you as you do it longer. And I'm thinking like, what if it was just three different kids in the room? And are they basing did they basically say like, this is what we see collectively. You're either going to get this reaction, this reaction or this reaction, not necessarily everyone's going to have this that or the other thing. You don't mean like, like, I know, you're just doing you they're doing research, right, but, but it was so long ago, like, where they don't I mean, were they just like He saw a thing that no one's ever seen before it's a rule, or, or does this play out like in modern time? Do you? Can you ask questions of parents and say, oh, yeah, this is how I'm seeing the kid. And they're telling me that's how they were raised. Those two things match up.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:16
Yes, sometimes or in as an adult, will come in and realize, as they're starting to parent, they're noticing kind of the tendencies of how they're parenting and then the remembering of a child, how did they feel? Yeah, the way they're, they were parented. And I think attachment theory has become pretty common, and that people will often say, you know, I was an anxious I had an anxious attachment, or I was, you know, was an avoidant. And so I think your question of, is this, how every single caregiver and baby interaction is formed? I don't know, I honestly I couldn't.

Scott Benner 15:57
That's a big question. I didn't expect to hear the answer to it. Yeah, I just, I'm just interested in, in that idea, like, you know, there are people come on the podcast all the time, they'll explain the stories from their life. And I'll think, Oh, I had that happen to me. And I had the exact opposite reaction to it. That That in itself is fascinating, right? Because now is the parent. Even if you say the first one goes, well, you're like, hey, I have another baby, and it comes out, you start doing the same stuff. You go, Oh, that's not working with this one. You know, because different people, except when they're little babies, they all feel like, you know, like stuffed animals or like, Oh, it's a baby, you don't think too much of the rest of it until I guess it can feel like it's too late sometimes, or you're so stuck in what you do that you're like, I don't know what else to do. Either. This is how I was raised, or I did it with the last one. I don't know where to go from here. You know, and, and how do you like, how do you see the baby's reaction? And give it back what it needs? I guess the one of the bees probably is really good advice, the belief and babies cry. Like that one, to me seems like it would apply bigger to parenting, like Believe, believe them? You don't I mean, if they say they're mad, they're mad, that kind of stuff. Right?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:12
Yes. And that's where the research and I some of this information, there's, there's just great if you're really interested in this, you know, you could Google the attachment theory and learn a lot about it. One article that I thought was really great in explaining some of the differences was from greater good.berkeley.edu. And it's why Attachment Parenting is different, are not the same as secure attachment. And you're right about believe that babies cry. So having that emotional, attunement and responsiveness and validating that they're feeling you're taking their feelings seriously. Right. That's it's all about the validation. But the difference can be seen or noted that sometimes what they saw with people who were following the Attachment Parenting is like you're you're overdoing it and having to, you're trying to meet the child's every need every request. Sure. And that can be exhausting. And that's when it's also counterproductive. Because I love this quote that they said, in contrast, research on secure attachments shows that in the flow of everyday life, Miss attunements happen about 70% of the time, and Miss attunements meaning that maybe the caregiver doesn't respond to the cry immediately because you're having to do something else. Or maybe you're trying to feed the baby, and he's actually tired. And so there's a lot more grace and invalidation. And like having that secure attachment that 70% of the time, you're kind of missing the mark. Yeah. And I think that's really something to note, because with the secure attachment, the baby learns that not only the beep, that the caregiver is going to be there and take the feelings seriously and listen to the baby's cries. But there's also going to be that mismatch missing kind of the mark. And then there's the repair that we talked about, even as you know that your child's older, you can you can repair that and say, oops, I you guys, you are hungry. You weren't tired, or vice

Scott Benner 19:09
versa, right? We can forget what happened just now. I'll give you knew better experience. And we'll keep moving like that. Because you're never because yeah, because three out a looks like three out of 10 times you're over. Remember we talked about that too? Even that pops up again here. 70 Isn't that interesting? Again? Yeah. I hope everybody listened to all the way through, they know what I'm talking about. But oh, that's really interesting. Listen, I think that it makes total sense for the baby to come out and spend time with the mom if it can after birth that just that I mean just common sense wise, there's, I mean, a lot has happened to both of you in the last couple of minutes. It'd be nice to just chill out for a minute and and meet each other. Right. Totally makes sense to me. Breastfeeding. I mean, there was a couple of decades there while everybody was like formula feeding their kids, right, like breastfeeding was like a hippie idea. Like for a while which is odd Add, isn't it odd how we were able to like, take something so natural and make it like weird, you know, like no, no buy this and now by the way, now it's hard to find formula since cope since COVID. And and you hear people going, Oh, just breastfeed, it's great way to do it. You're like, Yeah, nobody knows what they're talking about is all I think every time I hear something get out, we make these rules up even this, this, you know, William Sears and his his work, right? He's probably just first in a modern era to think about that. That's, it's really it. I mean, prior to that, people were turning out babies like livestock because they didn't even think they were gonna live. And they're just trying to get a couple to like, you know what I mean, to go the distance even? And I bet you, that's part of where that parenting style comes from, too. Like, how am I gonna get so attached to this kid, if he's gonna get rubella when he's four and, and I gotta put him in the ground. You know what I mean? Like, and I live in a box. And we're, we never know if we're gonna make it through the winter. And like, like, I don't know how you that's got to be for your own personal, I would think, right? Like, Oh, yes. So when life's harder, we become more modernized. life's harder. You can't be that attached to your kids. Because what if they, what if you lose them, and then we get more and more modern life gets safer and safer, people live longer. There's not as much infant mortality, that all happens, but we're still wired to be like, and what if that thing dies, I don't want to love it too much. And then this guy comes along, and drags us into more modern thinking about being human to our own children. That's really interesting. And then he tries to come up with the best way he can to write a book that people will buy so that he can get people to pay attention to this thing.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 21:41
Yeah. That's a great synopsis. Yeah. I think yeah, with with the breastfeeding example, the, one of the things as, as you know, the breast is best movement came about, I remember even hearing that in when I delivered my children and, you know, 2015. And I think, what, what, six, what the difference between the secure attachment and then the parenting, Attachment Parenting is that either can provide a secure attachment, breastfeeding, or bottle feeding, right? Because you can, you can put your baby on to the breast and be very methodical and be doing other things. And your that's not like that warm connection, right? In the same way you can cuddle and love and make eye contact with your baby while feeding them the bottle. And that is just as connecting and forming that secure attachment as breastfeeding. And I think that we're that place that was misunderstood for a long time. Yeah,

Scott Benner 22:44
no, I just, I mean, if you really look at this, and translated into modern times, right, we're doing this right now, by the way, we're doing what William Sears did right now, but we're recording it. And it's available for people very quickly, and they hear it instead of have to read it. It's you ever thought I ever thought we're sharing it with somebody? That's what he did, right? But back then, once he did it, they didn't need to do it again, because there was a book, they could sell it. It was done already. That's how they think of it now you're just constantly pushing people's ideas out in the world. And then the, you know, then people get to listen and decide for themselves. This makes sense to me. I think that technology is going to move us away from this idea that these are the rules. And then that'll be freeing to people in a generation or two, that they don't have to say, oh, you know what? I didn't breastfeed. I'm a bad mom. Right? Yeah. Right. Like, like, because it's not a rule anymore a rule, but I'm making quotes, you know? Not that you wouldn't want to if you could, I'm not saying don't breastfeed. I'm not saying any of this like, I mean, again, baby wearing, I don't understand what that is, do you know what that is? That's

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:54
that's what's like the slings or the rat or like the emoji? Like the baby.

Scott Benner 24:02
I don't want the kids to love me that no, just kidding. I'm not like, that's not a thing we ever did, right? I think the Baby Bjorn was getting popular as my kids were maybe getting a little older. Bedding close to the baby. We did that with both of our kids when they were newborns in a bassinet near the bag. You know that mean for your own? Sadly, maybe as much as for them to feel close. But also, isn't that another? I know when I say common sense. Sometimes people get upset with me. But there isn't a common sense thing not to take a three year old day old baby into another room and plop it down and be like good luck. You know, like, I don't know, like it felt weird to me for the kid to be that not that close to us until you were comfortable that Jesus they could roll over if they got in trouble or you know what I mean? Like anything like that really? Well. Yeah. And

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:46
then the critic would say though betting close to the baby, is that then also co sleeping where the risk could be that you roll on to the baby, or you do let the baby sleep with you until you're eight and there's You know, obviously everyone has a viewpoint on that. Yeah. So what what I think the critics now say, well, that doesn't, that's not going to form because it says Attachment Parenting that's not going to form the secure attachment. These are there aren't these like quick twig tricks.

Scott Benner 25:17
So that's my point. And by the way, when you say critics, here's what I think people who also want to put their opinion out on the internet, but need an alternate perspective, because the thing that they're arguing with has already been done enough that they can't get into the space. Like, that's, that's what I hear when you say that, but I'll tell you what, listen, I agree. I mean, it can't go on forever, right? Like, it's, there's gotta be like a cut off point, I'll tell you when we stopped doing it. So I used to, we used to be very, very broke. And when we were young, and Kelly had to get on a train every day to go to work, but we could not afford to pay for the parking permit at the train station. As I look back now, I believe it was $60 a month. And we were like, it sounded like somebody said, We need a million dollars for you to park your car here because we couldn't we couldn't come up with it. So I would get up every morning at like five o'clock, and put coal in a carrier and drive Kelly to the train station. And then I'd come back and most days we'd start our life, you know, get going. But there was this one day, I was freaking exhausted. Like really, and I said, I have to sleep, I have to get a little more sleep. And I thought, okay, like He looks tired still. And I brought him in into our bed. And I made like a little pillow fort around him. So I couldn't roll right on him. And I thought I had it all set up. And I'm asleep. And I still to this day can't explain what happened. But in my sleep. I felt him rolling out of the bed. And I I was on my back. And I flung myself towards him reaching with my arm over the over the mattress. And I got his onesie as he was falling to the ground and pulled him back up like a slinky. Oh my God, it was insane. Okay, like a crane very gently brought him back over the bed, set him down. And then I went from exhausted and asleep to like, wow, I was like, I was like jacked up with adrenaline, right? I was like, Oh, hey, buddy, hey, buddy. And he doesn't even I didn't even know. You don't mean? Like, he's just looking at me like, Hey, what's up, man? And so I get I'm like, it's gonna be fine. I was killed. And then I said to my wife, Hey, maybe I shouldn't be doing this anymore. Because I if if I was gonna fall back asleep, he needed to be somewhere secure, not not just with me. And then we let it go. He was maybe, I don't know, nine months old when we stopped doing that. You know, and he didn't sleep was asleep with us overnight. But there were times that it was always around exhaustion. If he was cranky or sick, then we'd bring him with us because we were like, I can't keep getting up and down like this. You know, survival. Yeah. By the way, if we lived in a teepee, we'd all be on the floor next to each other anyway, so I don't know.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:02
And then now they have very cool contraptions that I forget what it's called. It was just getting popular when we were kind of out of that phase, the dark DockAtot I

Scott Benner 28:13
feel like you're making that up. DockAtot

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:17
DockAtot you have to Google it where you know, they're in your bed. That's like a bassinet, but in your bed, but then it has like a like a no, it's

Scott Benner 28:24
yeah, you found it. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 28:27
DockAtot Yeah. So they do have they have cool little chap. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,

Scott Benner 28:32
please, there's no shortage of things that will take your money while you're having a baby. So by the way, you will give away most of them still in the packaging after the babies have grown up. You'll have like three things you like, I can't live without these the rest of the stuff I do not care about. Yeah, so Okay. Well, that's, I mean, okay, so like, where does that leave us? Like, if I'm, if somebody did the BS with me, or if somebody you know, jumped forward and did Valerie's stuff and, and worked like, where do I end up as a person? Like, how do I look at myself as an adult? And look back about how I was raised because that's the only way we're going to be able to tell people who are raising kids now like, this is your goal. And this may be what's gonna get you to

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 29:12
that. Yes. So what what is interesting with the secure attachment theory that I don't have an exact name to give you but they've done worse research to identify that typically the way that your attachment was formed with your caregiver, you then we kind of live that out and project that onto your romantic partner. So most often, we we kind of expect or think or hope that our romantic partners or live out will act the way our caregivers did. So if you were raised with the secure attachment from your caregiver, knowing that your needs were validated, your needs were met, your emotions were validated. You also had some space to experience some stress and then implement some coping skills you were you then kind of project that obviously be the healthiest romantic relationship, right like where you your needs are met, you're also have, they're not like constantly on each other or needing that right from each other. So that would be the secure attachment in adults. There's the avoidant attachment, which you might be, you might hear like the anxious avoidant experience and children, and that we can totally aligned with the four parenting styles, which we spoke about in the first episode, that this might be similar to kind of the uninvolved or neglectful parents, someone who might be you maybe you were raised as a child, as an infant, you are the child, the parent is either really doesn't care or is or is just really busy and stressed. And so you might have this anxious avoidant attachment style. And then that might also you project that into your romantic relationship. So

Scott Benner 30:59
if, if a parent was this dismissive of you for any number of reasons, then you're going to have that feeling like someone's going to avoid you as an adult. And that gives you anxiety. When you're in that relationship. You're like, oh, no, they're gonna do this thing to me. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 31:15
Okay. Yes, the third style is, so as a child anxious ambivalent, and children, this could be you could kind of equate this to the permissive parenting style, which is pretty inconsistent. And so as an adult in your relationship with the, if you're in an anxious attachment style, you might have a real significant fear of abandonment in the relationship. And not necessarily you're not really secure in that in that space with your partner, the last one, and we can go back and like yeah, we hash these. Yeah, please is a fearful avoidant, and children, that would be the attachment style as a child, and then you would, we would categorize this as disorganized attachment styles as an adult, we could maybe compare this to authoritarian parenting style, but it's actually even, it would be more equated to if you were, there was a lot of trauma or abuse, and you had real fear. Okay, of your of your caregiver. Alright,

Scott Benner 32:21
so let's go back through them. So okay, so avoidant, which is similar to uninvolved would be if a parent may was dismissive of you, and then it would give you that anxious avoidance in your in the child.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:35
Right. So like, some examples would be if the as, as a child, the caregiver, kind of left you to fend for yourself. They really they expected you to be independent in ways that maybe weren't developmentally appropriate. And then maybe if you if you needed them, you were either reprimanded or rejected. And so that that would kind of look like

Scott Benner 32:56
as a child, yeah. But then what does that translate to as me as a partner for somebody as an adult?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:01
So maybe you're avoiding emotional intimacy or physical intimacy, you probably have, maybe you have a real strong sense of independence, because that's how you learn how to cope and survive, you might not be comfortable expressing your feelings, because if you did, as a child, you were either reprimanded or ignored. You might have a hard time trusting people or or feel threatened. Like if anyone does try to it just goes back to kind of avoiding the emotional physical intimacy if you're feeling like, Ah, this person is trying to get close to me. And and then you might want to spend more time alone. Okay, and don't really feel like you need other people because you never learned how to how to do that. Yeah.

Scott Benner 33:43
And by the way, you can end up being this person. And this not be the parenting style that you were. I mean, like there's other ways to get to this stuff too. Sure. Sure. Right. Okay. All right. Give me the next one. So similar to permissive, anxious, preoccupied anxious ambivalent, in children, so there's anxious avoidant and anxious ambivalent?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:07
Yes. Okay. So that first one we just did was anxious. avoidant, avoidant. And the second one anxious avoidant

Scott Benner 34:16
ambivalent,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:17
excuse me, thank you. You have kind of well, I guess, as a child, you were listed see the best easiest way to do this without getting your parent maybe you were there. They kind of alternated between like overly in your space and like overly coddling and overly meeting your needs? Or were totally kind of detached and indifferent.

Scott Benner 34:43
This could go back and forth. From that. Yes. Oh, so there are parents who are like all in or all out? Yes, yeah. Okay. All right.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 34:50
So maybe they're really kind of attentive and then and then the next day they push you away. This could be fright for so many reasons. Like this is not

Scott Benner 34:57
true. No, no, it's not it's not like it's not it's Got a condemnation of anybody like you might maybe on the weekends you're real intense and then Monday through Friday you're like, I'm busy. I'm working that kind of Yeah,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 35:08
right. Yeah. Also, the without these is all maybe subconsciously the parent the caregiver, maybe made the child feel responsible for how the parent felt. And so that the child might often grow up thinking okay, I need to take care of other people's feelings and can lead to kind of some codependence okay. So as an adult, if you're noticing in your relationships, that maybe you're, you're leaning towards kind of clean D tendencies, tendencies, or maybe an in jealous of other people or other relationships, you might have difficulty being alone. Typically, like low self esteem, feeling unworthy of things like perceived particularly unworthy of love, right? Definite fear of rejection, significant fear of abandonment, right? Like whatever you do, please don't leave me in that comes from that inconsistent. I'm here I'm meeting your needs. And the next day being right. Totally different as a parent, right. So that isn't being jerked around

Scott Benner 36:13
is what it is. Yes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, you know, it's funny, I'm sorry, we talked so much through this about just being consistent and stable. That that really is just a bedrock of parenting. Like, it almost doesn't matter which one you are, as long as you're consistent about it, like so that a kid can like, can say, or at least I know this what this is what this is right? And, and showing love, no matter the situation if you're a hard worker Monday through Friday, and you can't pull yourself away, but but you can still communicate stability. I'll be home at five o'clock. We're definitely going to do this together. I love you. Like that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think that's, it sounds to me. Like that's still a repairable variable to parenting, like you talked about earlier. Yeah. Like you can still get ahead of that. It's, people don't know, this is what they're doing, right? Because right, you'll just like, make an excuse, like, I got to work hard, because I gotta make money. And that's that, or whatever else. And I guess too, if you're, if you're parented, this way, it leads to you doing this in your relationship. You're gonna do it to your kid to ensure a parent, then. And so then it just kind of keeps isn't it interesting, too, that we none of us do this while we're courting and dating. Right? Like, I mean, it's an easy joke to say like, Oh, you'll meet me after you can't get away. We know enough not to show it to people when we want them to like us. That's fascinating to me. Like, it really is like, because I don't think it's that diabolical when people do it. I don't think they think oh, this is weird part of my personality. I'm gonna keep it to myself. People know how to act. They just have to do it on purpose.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:01
Take a lot of work. Yeah. And is that sustainable?

Scott Benner 38:05
But do you think they're just acting like, I mean, there's got to be people who have gotten married and like, I was sold a bill of goods like, this is not, this ain't who you are, you know what I mean? And that happens all the time. Right? Sure.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:16
Sure. But that also could be a result of, you know, so many external variables to Oh, yeah, no,

Scott Benner 38:22
please. Yeah, I'm not saying that. There's only one way to get to this. There's so many ways to get to a unhappy, unpleasant life.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:28
And there's so many ways to to evolve out of that and to get

Scott Benner 38:32
out of it exactly to and again, over and over again, the answer is see it recognize it, do something about it, start over again, not instead of just like it's too late or it's not going to work out for me or whatever, or any of these you know, let me let me get let you get to the last one to to fearful avoidant, and I'll ask my other question. Okay.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 38:55
And I think before we go to the last one too, as you're hearing these kind of summaries or signs just to remind you that there is hope that none of these attachment styles are even though they they feel fixed. There can be growth to kind of undo these you know, particularly through you know, deep therapy work of re parenting if you have trauma like this next one will you know you can do I highly recommend EMDR you know, to help kind of reparent yourself and reform format your attachment style. And so this last one, the disorganized attachment style, they might seem this is really kind of based on trauma, neglect, abuse, and just kind of fear of fear of their parents fear of like they're just kind of general safety is pretty present in this childhood attachment signs as an adult that you might have a disorganized attachment styles, you know, definitely fear of rejection. Pretty you have difficulty with rank relating your emotions, pretty contradictory behaviors, because you haven't really, you don't really know how to like ground yourself and regulate yourself. High levels of anxiety, difficulty trusting people, which would make a lot of sense all of these things. And as well as signs of the other two styles that we just talked about the avoidant and the anxious attachment styles. And also we see a little bit we see more mood problems with this type of style, but it also makes a lot of sense.

Scott Benner 40:29
Am I more screwed if I meet another person who has the same style as me? And I'm in a relationship is that because because at least if you have a different one, like I think of my wife and I as having broken each other, like wild horses, like you don't I mean, like he's, we were young when we met, and my wife and I went to therapy, like when we were young and married. And I guarantee you that if I found a therapist right now, and it was like, Hey, we're still married, he'd be like, get the fuck out of here real quick. Be like, Oh, I lost 50 bucks with a guy gotta go pay. I'm like, usually, like, but but I think we had enough. If I if I can break us down a little bit. I think we had enough intellectual prowess to see what we were doing and to work our way through it. But if I were to look at these three, parenting styles, I would say I clearly fit. I think I think I fit into disorganized as a parenting style. My dad was kind of abusive. My mom didn't stick up for me when that happened, although I felt very loved by my mom. So I probably have a little bit of the avoidant, more of the disorganized, like, I'm probably a blend right in there. A little bit of that, right. I don't have any anxiety from it for some reason, although I would describe myself and this was one of the other questions I want to ask you. Because I'm adopted. I did have I'm adopted, and from a family of divorce. I definitely had that like, Oh, God, nobody go anywhere feeling like, like, and I've had abandonment. And I've said on here before, until I got older and like, figured out that you couldn't do that. If there was a problem between people even in my family of the four of us, I had this horrible feeling that if we didn't fix it right now, their doom was on its way. Like we couldn't argue without finishing it. And and coming to a resolution because I would get like this feeling of like, Oh, God, this is it. It's all over. Yeah, you know, like, someone's gonna leave. Like, that's how it felt to me. I don't feel that way anymore. But I got there, because my wife, who was probably raised, like, you know, being a vote like, nobody really connecting with her emotionally or even intellectually, plus, she was in her family, the kid who was getting good grades, they didn't even feel like they had to help her with school. You know, like she was kind of on her own, a little bit of a misfit as far as the family organization when she didn't quite fit in with the rest of them. So I feel like she took a little bit of that parental abuse that she received. And she found a way to artfully and purposefully use it on me to drag me out of that disorganized state I was in. Does that make sense? Yes, okay. Yes. And then I was able to use the kind of more like, artistic part of how I think about life. And I mean, you guys know how I feel. You hear me talking all the time, like that whole thing. And she was stuck in a very kind of like Catholic rules and regulations. We're not saying we're not real nice to each other, we don't show too much love. Even if I'll tell you the one thing I can't like that's took her the longest time to get away from was her parents would only say something nice about her through a proxy. So she didn't know that her dad was impressed by her. She talked to her father's friend who said, Oh, your dad told me the story about this thing you did. But he would never say to her directly, right. And so I'm kind of trying to, I've been trying to bring her into that more like loving, caring, like, feeling that she didn't have that. Yeah, that I actually did have growing up, and maybe I had it for my mom, or maybe, maybe I developed it for my brothers. And knew like, I'm not clear on that in my life, if it all came from my mom, or if I saw how much my brothers needed somebody and I kind of became that thing for them. But anyway, I was able to give that to her. And that's difficult to, to drag a person out of that kind of like, I don't want to just call it cold, but it is it's like kind of a more cold state. And like to bring them out of it is tough. Like there's still times if I hug my wife, she'll get uncomfortable after a while. I've known her for 27 years, and she gets a little like, don't be too nice to me feeling. You know what I mean? If she ever hears that, she's gonna be mortified. But just you know, it's true. I just let it go. So I was a mess. I'm not saying I wasn't. But But if two people get I often interview somebody, I just interviewed this kid the other day. He's bipolar. He's medicated now he's doing pretty well. But he's dating a person who's also struggling with mental health issues. And I part of me thinks, well that makes sense because who's going to understand them better? But then I thought, well, who the hell is gonna save them? Like you don't I mean, like there's no one there to know the other side of This, am I onto something with that by any chance?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:02
Well, I think, yes, anything where you can be attracted to someone either in the opposite attachment style, or oftentimes you see, like, if you're in the codependent place, right, you're gonna be in that where you could be in that naturally in a relationship with someone who's equally as codependent and you kind of feed each other in that so it can be unhealthy in a way. I think that the, the way that you and Kelly, were able to work on yourselves, and then how you interacted with each other's is remarkable. And whether that was you know, you had the awareness. And then you also sought help to have that, like, objective observer. And then you had the motivation to do that, or the intent. And

Scott Benner 45:49
she was also really great about it and intent on it. Like she definitely saved me before I was able to, like the thing she gave me she gave me before I was able to complete the things I was able to give her like, I don't know if that makes sense or not. Yeah, and I think that's because as a female, I think she was more emotionally mature when we were younger than I was. I mean, I honestly think that's part of it. And probably a little bit of that, like Catholic Irish, like I'm not getting divorced, we're fixing this, like like that kind of thing to get an email is helpful little stick to itiveness and not wanting to bail right away. But so you know, the thing that just popped in my head, I don't know how reasonable it is to say out loud. But if I treat my daughter one way, she ends up with a bad guy. If I treat her another way, she's got a better chance of not she won't gravitate towards people who are like more chaotic and likely to hurt her and stuff like that. Just talking about it from this perspective first. But which is that like, what do I want to give her so that she doesn't end up on a motorcycle in Arizona smokin math?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 46:51
Oh, well love tension. And I think this, the authority going back to her that you know, the authoritative parenting style, right? Like having her she knows how to she knows that she can trust her caregiver to meet her needs, but also isn't so dependent on it, right? Like there's this balance of I can meet my own needs. But I also am comfortable and confident in asking for my needs to be met. And I know that I want somebody who will validate my feelings and not dismiss them, and won't get one ignore them.

Scott Benner 47:34
And if I'm a big scumbag, as a dad, everything's a party, and I'm not really giving those things, then she's going to look for someone like me to get the approval of someone romantically that she couldn't have gotten parentally

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:47
I mean, in it, yes. As it. Yeah.

Scott Benner 47:54
I know that everything's not exact, but that can happen. Oh, how many people you got to talk to but if you hear the same story over and over again and think there's probably not a lot of different stories under the sun, you know what I mean? So, so same thing with a boy like how do I nurture a boy, so that they're kind, but not a pushover and, and so that they're masculine in a way that they're going to need without being an asshole? Like, that's, to me seems like the balancing act for raising a son like how are you going to make them a man without making them a dick. And, you know what I mean, it we're making them somebody who just, you know, is so overly concerned with, how they come off. And if they're being polite, I know, this doesn't sound politically correct. I don't even care. But like, like Unity, like, like, it's just, like, that's what you're trying to do. Right? You're like you're trying to raise a boy that they can take care of themselves and hopefully, lead, you know, take care of other people. And without them over indulging that kind of male ego thing and without under indulging it. And then the same for a girl you're trying to you're trying to create a person who can lead a group and take care of their family without being you know, I don't know, what would be the correlation there without, I don't know, being a princess or like, whatever. And, you know, and you know, not having any, I don't know, whatever that brings along, or without going the other way. And being an absolute like pushover again, and just doing what another person tells them to do. I mean, like, we can all pretend that things are different. But those are, those are pretty much your worries for your daughter and your son when they're going out the door. You know what I mean? So I don't want some guy on my daughter, then treating her terribly. I want her to be able to stick up for herself and understand who she is, and be able to lead her own life and make her own decisions. I also don't want her to be like some like ice princess who like, you know, nobody can connect with. And yeah, I think I got it all out. That's what I mean. That's what you want. None of that's getting edited. That's exactly what I mean. Okay, I don't want my son to be an asshole and I don't want to be a pushover, and I don't want my daughter to be a nice Princess and I don't want her to get taken advantage. Jump. Those were the things I was thinking of when I was raising my kids. So I don't know if that's general,

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 50:04
it's you sounds like you wanted and, you know, developed and nurtured, secure, confident individuals, right. Like, I mean, I hear I hear your, you know, kind of the, the differences a little bit in the gender expectations. But I think what I hear above all of that is secure, confident, compassionate individuals you can, can be confident and communicate their needs, they can also be compassionate and validate others

Scott Benner 50:33
without going too far in either direction. Like, right without. And by the way, I don't know Arden's still not done. I don't know how well we did with her, like, not being so assertive that it could be off putting this on people like and I don't know that it matters, it only needs to not be off putting to one person, right. So like, like, I'm not saying you have to bend to some like social conformity. But I'm not sure yet because she's still a little young. And she's very confident. And when she expresses that confidence, it can it comes off. I mean, people have her on here. She's, she's not a grappler. Maybe she's aggressive. I don't know what the Yeah, with the I don't know what they were, I think I'm aggressive. So like, I don't know what the I don't mean that in a bad way. I mean, like, you know, you and I are going to get to a conversation, I am going to say what I want to say, and that's going to be the end of it. And I think and if I also want to hear what you're gonna say, but I'm not going to apologize for how I feel, or condemn you for how you feel. I think I'm getting there with I think she's getting to that. She's just not quite done yet. If that makes I hope she never hears that she's a wonderful person. She's just not quite. She's not as mature. She's going to be one day, you know, I don't know it. Sorry. Go ahead. No, I don't know what I'm saying.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:47
Yeah, you're I mean, you're going to, you know, I even thinking about, you know, our communication dialogues around like aggressive versus assertive communication, being assertive, oftentimes can be perceived as not feminine air quotes. And assertive is identifying how you're feeling while holding the other person's opinion. You know, holding it literally, like I recognize, you might have a different opinion. But this is how I feel what you just said. And I think going back to our parenting styles and secure attachments and your question in the beginning, you can raise your children with a secure attachment, but they also have different personalities. And so that doesn't mean that they aren't securely attached, or they aren't formed, or developed in a way that like is ideal, but because you see, you know, she has a different personality. And then, but I also hear you that, you know, there's still that growth that you're

Scott Benner 52:43
hoping for, but but like the real question, everybody's wondering is how do I raise a kid doesn't end up in a bar on Coke, and it's the secure, it's authoritative, secure, right? Like, that's the way to go?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:55
Yes, yeah. And modeling, you know, modeling, as we've talked about over and over, and attending and meeting their needs, and then apologizing because we're not perfect, right? Repairing?

Scott Benner 53:07
And are you going to have any, like, let's say, a person who's like a hot mess themselves, somehow pulls it together to be a great parent is still not going to help completely though, right? Because like the, it's still the modeling is incredibly important. It's what you're showing them is, in the end, what they're going to think is real. Like, do as I say, not as I do is going to come into play, I would imagine as the kid gets older.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:30
Yes. So. So if you're saying if you had an insecure, there's like the secure attachment and the other three insecure attachments. So you're saying if if you were raised with an insecure attachment, but somehow you kind of pulled yourself together as a parent, and

Scott Benner 53:47
said the right things, but didn't do the right things? Like like I'm saying from a parenting situation, if I was saying the right thing, but not doing it, is my kid not still gonna be like, he said that, but I see what he's doing. He's doing or do you it's still better than nothing I would imagine. But, you know, a perfect situation is going to be you being, you know, a role model, right? And like, like really being it not just pretending to be because they sniffed through that in three seconds. Like your bullshit isn't gonna, like cover, you can't cover your bolts with perfume and this one, that's for sure. You know, like kids are gonna figure that out in two seconds. And so all right, everyone go to therapy. That's what I heard I

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 54:29
know for sure. And I think there is just there's always hope, you know, for for healing and opportunity to be compassionate. No,

Scott Benner 54:37
I believe I really believe that to like, you have to want to and you have to know enough to, to work towards it and everything. But I can't tell you how much I believe in the idea. And how much after recording with people over and over and over again, I'm telling you this stuff. Nine times out of 10 is going to work out just like this like there's There are not a lot of there are a lot of people running around, you know, the CEO of a small fortune 500 company whose dad grew up doing coke in front of them in the living room. It just didn't work. It doesn't work that way. And I just talked to this kid the other day. Like I was saying earlier, he's in my head now, because you know, you have mental health issues, a lot of anxiety has some suicidal ideation. I said, What was it like growing up? Oh, my dad was a meth and coke. Like, wow. And I'm like, Yeah, I mean, that's how I even said to him, like, what chance did you even have? And he laughed. He's like, not much. And I was like, Yeah, right. Like, he's so bright, and he understands and he knows. And still, this all happened to him because somebody else put him in that situation. Yeah, I don't know. It's It's upsetting. To be honest. Your last little bit here, you have gentle parenting. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 55:44
So I think just like, you know, in the 1950s, the secure or the attachment theory was developed. And then the 1980s, Sears and Sears came out with the baby bees. And now more recently, you probably are hearing about gentle parenting. And, in general, as you know, some critics suggest that this movement isn't, is not based on scholarship, or research or science, but it's more of kind of an approach or mindset. And so I think it's important to to, to remember that, that it is something that is it's this movement that's grown mainly on social media. And I'm not trying to be little or dismissive, because I think there's some really great tenants to it. And in general, when you when people have done some, you know, anecdotal research online, when they ask what is gentle parenting, they usually say it's, quote, staying calm and challenging moments with their kids, and validating their kids big feelings. This is from the conversation.com. Okay, and so we're like, we Yes, we have heard that. We have just talked about it in a lot of these episodes. But the emphasis is just that, like, stay calm, and validate the big feelings. And I applaud that, I think, where people are feeling badly about themselves, because it's impossible to do constantly write, so then you end up in this space of like, I'm never going to be a gentle parent, I'm never gonna be a good enough parent, because I can't validate all of their big feelings, and I can't just stay calm all of the time. Right. And so I just wanted to just share that note about the gentle parenting movement that there is a lot of there's a great value in it, but also, it's impossible to do. Yeah, 24/7 Listen,

Scott Benner 57:29
you all can listen to whatever you want. But, you know, take it for me. Don't be a shithead. Don't get high and drunk around your kids, give them a foundation, be stable, love them and hang out with them a little bit. All done. Like I mean, come on. It's not that hard. If they if they strike out trying to yell, what the fuck are you doing? Ask them. Like, I mean, I've seen people do it. What the fuck are you doing? Well, he's striking out because he's eight. Like, like, that's what he's doing. I watched a woman stand behind a batting cage one time and give a kid instruction during the pitch. There's a mom, she's like, get your leg down, do this. I'm like, Oh my god. He's trying to hit a baseball. She's four feet behind him yelling through the umpire and the catcher into this kid's ear while he's hitting. Do you want to guess if the kid was any good at baseball, he was not. So like, and by the way, and he appeared to hate his mother. And I was like, what? And by the way, here's the last part of it. Erica, they never made sense to me. They were little tiny people, the mom and the dad. And I thought what do you think this kid's gonna grow up to be six, five. Like just, he's not doing this in college. Just let him go hit the stupid baseball and have fun and it'll do it for a couple of years. No, go find something else. And they'll have a happy memory of you and them and being here. And he won't remember that. He struck out. They were trying to turn him into. They were trying to turn him into Derek Jeter when he was six. I saw the kid recently three feet tall. Like I mean, it just it was never gonna happen. They created all that bad feeling around that kid for no reason. Like, listen, whoever. I don't know what they did to Bryce Harper, when they were raising him, but all right, God bless. Okay, because that guy's a monster, and he can hit a baseball and if he's a little sad in his personal life, I'm okay with it because it makes TV better. Okay, but But you know what I mean? Like, it's not everybody, it just, it's such a, you're going to disagree with me. But is this not relatively simple? At its core? I know it's not because of the way you were raised and everything that happened to you and finances and all that I know it becomes muddy. But at its core, just love people, show them consistency, be there for them. There's not much more to it than that is there?

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 59:48
I think yes. It's simple in definition and can get messy in implementation. And then in that messiness, where do you go in your mind can you offer that compassion to yourself and to your child. Right. I think that's, that's where I would land.

Scott Benner 1:00:05
Yeah. And you know, where the major problem here is, is that our initial attraction when we're in our breeding ages is visual, and firm loans and stuff like that, like nobody stops to talk and say, I wonder if me and her might get along. Or if we have, like, you know, backgrounds that will support each other and create like, it's not how we do it we go man, her hair's really pretty. That guy shoulders are amazing. All right, let's go. Anyway, don't don't date in a bar that might give you a better chance to. I don't know what to say. Well, okay, as always, I'm completely dismayed at the end of our conversation. Oh, God, I appreciate that. I kept you long. I really do appreciate it.

Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 1:00:53
You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks.

Scott Benner 1:01:04
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