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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends, welcome to episode 1087 of the Juicebox Podcast.

Today's episode of the podcast is an after dark. I'll be speaking with Jules who is 25 years old and diagnosed with type one diabetes two years ago. Today we're going to talk about how Jules experiences swings from deep depression to grandiosity, and so much more. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you'd like to save 40% off of your entire purchase at cosy earth.com, all you have to do is use the offer code juice box at checkout. If you enjoy this, after dark, there are dozens more. There's a list available at juicebox podcast.com. Click up top where it says after dark or in the private Facebook group in the feature tab. There's lists of all the series. And you really should check out that private Facebook group. It's absolutely free, it has close to 44,000 members and it actually adds 150 new members every four days. There's an amazing conversation going on there right now that you would learn from enjoy or be able to help with this episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by ag one. Drink ag one.com/juice box when you use my link with your first order, you're going to receive a free welcome kit. That's a scoop a shaker in a container, you're going to receive five free travel packs and a year supply of vitamin D. That's all with your first order. If you use the link, drink ag one.com/juice box.

Jules 2:00
I'm Jules. I'm 25 I'm an artist and I live in Philly. Okay.

Scott Benner 2:07
Artists self proclaimed went to art school. How did becoming oh just

Jules 2:12
fully self proclaimed? Yeah, I've been doing like fiber arts since like, as long as I can remember. And I write poetry things like that.

Scott Benner 2:21
Do you make a living at it? No, no. What? How do you make a living?

Jules 2:27
Right now I'm unemployed.

Scott Benner 2:28
So how old were you when you were diagnosed?

Jules 2:31
I was 23. Oh, this

Scott Benner 2:33
is recent. Yes, yes. Okay, two years ago. Was it out of the blue? Or is there type one in your family and you were kind of expecting?

Jules 2:44
No type one doesn't actually run in my family. Which is why it was like so shocking. When I was diagnosed. My dad and my aunt have type two. But nobody in my family has type one.

Scott Benner 2:55
I see. How about other autoimmune issues? Ranging

Jules 3:00
my sister? Yeah, my sister is celiac.

Scott Benner 3:05
Sister's celiac. Any bipolar in the family? Yes. Do Can you just like loosely say where you don't need to be like it's my Uncle Jim. But you

Jules 3:18
know, I it's actually me. I've been diagnosed with bipolar. How long? I was diagnosed when I was 19. So that's what like, six years ago.

Scott Benner 3:27
Okay. Anything else? Thyroid? No, no. Okay. So for you your two diagnosis is our type one and bipolar.

Jules 3:37
And I actually have migraines to migraines.

Scott Benner 3:40
Thank you. All right. Tell me a little bit about when you Well, let me ask a question first. Where are you? Which were you diagnosed with first? Bipolar, bipolar? 19? I'm sorry, you said that. Okay. What's that like? And what leads up to the diagnosis. Um,

Jules 3:58
so it's actually like, really, like, so dramatic. I saw I was having a really bad migraine spell. And a doctor prescribed a steroid for me. And he didn't listen to me almost at all. He was just like, here's a medicine. He was like, this will be an aggressive treatment. And I said, Well, I'm struggling. So I will take this medication and trust you that it will be safe. And in fact, it was not. And I mean, it had a ton of like physical side effects. Like I was really dizzy and I wasn't able to eat or like walk I was really weak. But then I started, you know, not sleeping very much. Having all of the like, typical manic symptoms of like thinking I was the smartest person in the world. You know, having so many ideas, thinking really fast talking really fast. But then actually, like this is kind of where my diabetes story starts. Even though I wasn't diagnosed until I was 23. I started taking this medication called Zyprexa. Okay, Hey, do you know that one? I'm looking it up as

Scott Benner 5:03
you're speaking? Gotcha.

Jules 5:04
Yeah. So it's an anti psychotic. The thing was the practices that it's been linked to diabetes, typically type two. But and I want to say like 2004 2006, there was a study or not a study, but there was this like class action lawsuit from a bunch of people who had taken this mat, and were like, Hey, I have diabetes now. And I did not have diabetes before I took this medication. And of course, like the drug company, like paid everybody off, they never admitted that it was the medication. But it's still sold today, which is, like blows my mind. But yeah, I mean, I think that's like how my diabetes started developing. And I will say, like, I don't think it's only the medication. I think it's also like, like environmental. Cause, like, you know, trauma can affect the development of diabetes and things like that. I'm sure there's other things that have affected me. And I'm sure it's in my genes, even though no one else I know. How's it?

Scott Benner 5:56
Yeah. What was? So take me back before that, like, What's life? Like for the first 18 years? Is there any indication? Are you depressed, overly moody? Like, is there anything going on? Do you have a lot of trouble in your life? Or was it just like, clear sailing, and then all of a sudden, the headaches came?

Jules 6:15
No, I mean, I've been depressed since I was like, 14. Okay. Yeah. And like, I think I had kind of like light, kind of manic symptoms, like I would have times where I'd be feeling really down and I'd be like, Oh, my God, like this so amazing and beautiful. But I was obviously like a child. So it didn't kind of manifest in the same dramatic way that it did when I was 19.

Scott Benner 6:37
What's the I want more context for? I felt like the smartest person in the world? Yes,

Jules 6:43
I think it's kind of I think they call that like grandiosity. But it was essentially like, I was just kind of up all night thinking, having all of these ideas and like, seeing the big picture, at least, like what I thought was the big picture. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, no one has ever thought these things before. So that's kind of where that came from.

Scott Benner 7:05
Did you fix the world during your? Did you write down a manifesto or anything? Rachel's was like, I got this hold on a second. Looking now, yeah, looking back on those, were your thoughts valid? Or do you look back at them when you're not manic? and think, oh, wow, these are like grandiose thoughts.

Jules 7:25
I mean, I think some of them are. One thing I was really struggling with. And so that I was in college when this was happening. And I think I'm sure you know, this, a lot of colleges like do not treat their disabled students very well. And so that's one thing. I was like really thinking about a lot of like, how am I friends like interacted with the college and how I did, I was like a person who had migraines. And so I was like, Oh, my gosh, no one is seeing how all of these dots are connecting. And I mean, like, it was true, but I also think that people probably did, yeah.

Scott Benner 7:56
What was your intention? When you went to college? What what did you think you were going to study? I

Jules 8:02
actually thought I wanted to be an engineer and be a math major, but I took some math classes and decided that I hated it. Were

Scott Benner 8:10
you good at math prior to that? Yes, yeah. Okay. Did you you didn't graduate? Correct.

Jules 8:17
I did graduate.

Scott Benner 8:19
Oh, you did? Okay. Cool. I wasn't sure if this struggle was enough that got you out of it. So you graduated with a degree in anthropology,

Jules 8:27
anthropology? That

Scott Benner 8:29
was a big switch. Right? Yeah. Is did you make that decision after your bipolar diagnosis or before? It was before before Okay, so the headaches come the medication comes for the headaches? Is that what they're for originally? Because I'm trying to follow it you said like there's first of all my expelling the drug raid z y p r e XA. Yes. Okay. So the only like, the only results I can find searching is that there was looks like in 2009, Eli Lilly pled guilty to a charge that illegally marketed their anti psychotic drugs, a proxy for an unapproved use, there was a payment for that to settle civil lawsuits. That's an NBC News article. And then the New York Times says Lilly agreed to pay 500 million to settle 18,000 lawsuits from people who claim they had developed diabetes or other diseases after taking it. And that list the drug is being for schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Okay. So you take, but they give you that just for the headaches or do you think at that time the doctor saw you as bipolar?

Jules 9:45
No, so I took a steroid for the headache. I'm sorry. Okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And so the steroid kind of like set off all of those really intense mental health symptoms.

Scott Benner 9:57
I see headaches, steroids, then this Zyprexa then the diabetes. Hmm, okay. But your sister has celiac? Yes. Gotcha. All right. I think I understand. Okay, so does the medication help for the bipolar? Or where does it land you? So

Jules 10:17
I mean, I think to some extent it helped, but mostly in the way that it like numbs you out. And I actually don't take it anymore. Do you want to hear the story of like my diabetes diagnosis related to the medication? I

Scott Benner 10:29
want to hear the whole thing. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay.

Jules 10:32
So when you start taking, so actually, when I first started taking this medication, they like lied to me. They didn't tell me it was an anti psychotic. They were like, it's a mood stabilizer. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I love having stable moods. So I started taking it about, I want to say like two weeks, maybe like three or four weeks after somewhere in that timeframe, I saw a different psychiatrist. And he was the first one to say like, Hey, by the way, you know, some people will get diabetes after taking this, but he didn't, he really downplayed it, he didn't make it seem like that was a big deal. Or something that happened frequently. And it was also the whole, you know, like, Bipolar is a lifelong diagnosis. And so you'll need to be taking this medication the rest of your life. And you don't necessarily need to take this particular one. But right now you're unstable. So you have to take it in, like whatever. So I took it for a long time. One of the big problems is it probably could have been caught earlier if I had like regular access to a psychiatrist. But I was in college and like psychiatrists are expensive. And like the one who took my insurance I like really did not like

Scott Benner 11:44
I got up this morning, I went downstairs, I got my shaker, my scoop, and I put a scoop of ag one of the shaker filled it with a cold water and gave it a good knee like that, you know, I mean, and it dissolved, and I drank it. Well, when you stop my shaker, and was on my way. I bet you I didn't spend. I mean, let's be fair, two minutes doing that, probably. And it tastes great. I know ag one tastes great, because I've tried other supplementary inks. And guess what? They were bad, horrible. And it made my tongue mad at me, but not ag one. I love ag one. It's easy to mix, easy to drink, easy to do. Ag one can replace your multivitamin, your probiotic, and more in one simple drinkable habit. Since 2010. They've improved the formula for ag 152 times this is in their pursuit of making the best foundational nutritional supplement possible. And they do that by using high quality ingredients and rigorous standards. So if you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with a G one. Try ag one and get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free ag one travel packs with your first purchase. Go to drink a G one.com/juice. Box. That's drink ag one.com/juice. box. Check it out. Why did you not like the one that you took your insurance? He

Jules 13:08
was just like, not very compassionate.

Scott Benner 13:13
Okay. Oh, that's very matter of fact. Yeah, I say, I have to say I can't find any, like, you know, online. I can't find any connection between Zyprexa and type one diabetes. It seems like yeah, it's specific to type two.

Jules 13:32
Yes, I agree. Yeah. So the reason that I think it's connected, and this is just like anecdotal, but I've noticed. So I mean, like, I stopped taking this medication for a while. I started taking it again when I had like another crisis. And at this point, I was already, like diagnosed with type one. And this was in 2021. So this was the year after my diagnosis. I started taking Zyprexa again, and obviously like in the first year, I really didn't need very much insulin at all. I think I was taking literally like two units of Joseba and like some Kenalog for mealtimes. But when I started taking the Zyprexa, my insulin resistance went up like so much and by like, maybe like month one or two of taking it again. I was taking like 30 or 40 units of insulin all of a sudden, okay, as opposed to like the five or 10 that I had been taking before. Okay. All

Scott Benner 14:25
right. I wonder. Well, I guess there's no, it's so hard like because, like you said, it's completely anecdotal. I mean, if you had type one you might have been honeymooning and then all of a sudden not been and needed more insulin as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Jules 14:41
So I mean, my like working theory in my brain of how this might have happened is that I'm sure I have like the gene or whatever that influences type one. What I think I think like probably my diabetes had been developing for a while just kind of like under the radar, but all of that insulin resistance that I started having when I saw Due to taking the medication, you know, made my pancreas work a lot harder. And so like part of it was being attacked by me my immune system. Part of it was working really hard. And I'm sure that didn't help with like the progression of the disease.

Scott Benner 15:13
I also wondered, did you ever get a diagnosis for the headaches? Yeah. What do they think causes those?

Jules 15:20
They think it's just migraines.

Scott Benner 15:21
Migraines. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So it's just through school, you're dealing with both of these things? Probably not the not the diabetes after your graduation. Yes. But are you dealing with them? Like, like, Let's do with them one at a time. The bipolar thing comes up your family who is helping you? Are you on your own with this?

Jules 15:48
Well, in theory, my family was helping you but they didn't really do anything. That was like actually helpful, if that makes sense. I said, my dad just took me to the hospital. He, yeah, he like took one look at me and was like, You're doing bad. And like, took me to the ER, and I went inpatient. And that was obviously like, a really horrible experience. Going

Scott Benner 16:11
into a hospital for mental health stuff is a bad it was a bad experience. Yes. Did you go in voluntarily?

Jules 16:22
Technically, yes. But I didn't really have a handle on like, what was actually happening, like, because my migraines had been so severe. And I was having all these side effects from the like steroid. I thought I was like, going to the hospital for like, all those physical things that were going on. And it wasn't until like, a few days later that I realized I was like, Oh, I'm in psychiatric care right now.

Scott Benner 16:44
Oh, wow. So you were in such a state that you weren't even certain how that happened? That's interesting. I was I was so out of it. Yeah. Do you? Have you talked to your like your father, your people in your family afterwards that did they described you? What about your, like, your self made them say, Oh, this is Eddie has to go somewhere?

Jules 17:06
Well, I mean, I think like my dad saw me like not being able to walk and things like that, or like not being able to walk long distances and being really fatigued. But I think it's actually kind of funny looking back, I like had this whole master plan of like, how I was going to sue my college for all of like, the disability discrimination that was going on. And my dad, like, heard about that and was like, red flag. Oh,

Scott Benner 17:28
this sounds wacky. Gotcha. And nothing else. And like your dad didn't ever say like, Oh, I've seen this before or so this is all new to him. Right? Yeah. Wow. It must be difficult. Have you think about that ever? Like, like, what a? I mean, because it's happening to you. So you obviously have one perspective of it. But people around you who are just like, you know, live in their lives, and there's jewels, and you know, and then all of a sudden this stuff starts happening? I don't know if I would know what to do, either. I guess that's what I'm saying.

Jules 18:02
Right? Yeah, absolutely. And that's something that's been really hard for me to kind of deal with. I've like knowing how harmful that experience was, but also understanding like, he thought he was doing what was best for me.

Scott Benner 18:15
Yeah, yeah. How and tell me more about the experience and, and why it was harmful.

Jules 18:21
And mostly, I was just like, I didn't, I had no idea what was going on, like, no comprehension of, like, why I was there. And like, I mean, so many, like, just weird things kind of happen. One of the biggest things is that I wasn't sleeping. And a hospital keeps you on a pretty regimented schedule. And so they would like, turn my lights on at eight in the morning and get me up even though I was up until like, six in the morning. So I was just like, so, like, confused. So out of it. One of the other like, super weird things that happened is that they put me in a substance abuse group. Even though that was like not an issue that I was experiencing. Okay,

Scott Benner 19:03
were you Yeah, were you using anything at all? Yeah,

Jules 19:07
I mean, I was but it wasn't to the level of like, like disorder or like something that was harming me.

Scott Benner 19:13
What were you doing at the time? This weed? Okay, and uh, but they heard weed and then put your right into substance abuse. Right? Yeah, the weed help you at all with any of this or? Oh,

Jules 19:24
yeah, I use like medical marijuana. Now. It's really helpful. It just helps with my pain and like anxiety.

Scott Benner 19:32
So you have so tell me about the ebbs and flows of bipolar like you're more functional at times and then manic do you get depressed then are you just manic and

Jules 19:44
oh, yeah, I got so depressed. So what's funny is that since my bipolar diagnosis, I've actually like, worked with my current psychiatrists to kind of like get on diagnosed with that actually, because every time I've had like a man neck like episode, it's been caused by something physiological. So like that time it was the steroid and 2021 like pretty shortly after I was diagnosed with diabetes, I started I like first started taking insulin, and I was taking too much. And so I was getting all of these low blood sugars in the middle of the night. Yeah, and I'm sure you know, like how blood sugar affects you. It's awful. And like, especially when you're waking up every night at like, two in the morning with it. And I was getting all of these like, you know, shaking, feeling really tense, feeling really scared, and not being able to make it back to sleep. And that kind of like escalated into like me, just having all of those like symptoms again, like, especially when my body doesn't sleep like that's when kind of like all the wackiest, like thought patterns start happening?

Scott Benner 20:49
Does the weed help you sleep?

Jules 20:52
Sometimes Sometimes?

Scott Benner 20:53
How much do you have to smoke to get an impact? Like take a couple hits? Or you have to get blasted? Or like what's the what's the, the amount that helps you? Um,

Jules 21:04
so I actually typically take like concentrates from the dispensary. And I do have to take like a good amount, because I just like have developed a tolerance at this point.

Scott Benner 21:15
Right? Are you vaping? It? No, not typically? No. Okay. Um, okay. So looking back on all this, because it's interesting, because, well, let me let me say why I find it interesting. Because you're a person in the middle of an episode, I don't know what to call it. I'm saying episode. And you're also trying to judge what's happening to you. And, and so I can see somebody listening and saying, Well, Jewel says it was a bad experience. But Jules was also in the middle of, you know, some sort of a breakdown in a crisis, and so on. But I wouldn't want to dismiss your experience. So how do you make sense of the input that's coming into you? And how do you judge it?

Jules 22:04
What do you mean, like the input?

Scott Benner 22:05
Well, like when things are happening around you? Like, like, is it not possible that if like, you're like, you know, I got put into a substance abuse program, but it wasn't right and blah, blah, blah. But like, is it possible that a person off to the side who's not going through what you're going through would say, Yeah, I know, Jules feels this way. But this is very necessary. And like, do you know, you mean, like, how do you? I guess it feels like that the world is coming to you through a different lens. And I don't know how to separate what is actually happening from what you feel like is happening. I don't know if I'm being clear, but is that better?

Jules 22:43
Okay, okay. Yeah, well, so I mean, what I would say is, sorry, I'm gathering my thoughts go play. But my so my dad, I'm sure it was like, Yeah, that was absolutely necessary. But I, I actually, my wife and I were together at that time. We weren't married yet. But we were together. And one thing we've talked about kind of like consistently since that happened is that there were ways that I could have been taken care of that didn't involve a hospital. Like mainly, when I kind of get into that like manic like headspace. It is a lot more like I just need help taking care of my physical body, because it's really hard for me to eat, and like sleep and stuff. And if that stuff is taken care of, it's not really like I'm a danger to myself. It's just kind of like I'm having a bad time. And that's kind of what was going on. Like that first time that's ever happened. was like, I would have been okay. Not going to the hospital. But that's just kind of like how it played out.

Scott Benner 23:40
Yeah, I guess the beginning, like, you know that now, but in the beginning, nobody had a context for that at all.

Jules 23:46
Right. I see. Oh, sorry. And like, my dad had never seen me like this before, right.

Scott Benner 23:50
He's probably scared. Yeah, you have. Okay, so I'm sorry. You said you're married. How long? You've been married?

Jules 24:01
Since 2019. So about it'll be four years in August. Okay.

Scott Benner 24:04
But you knew your wife prior. You've been dating for a while I see. Married Gotcha. Okay, so how does that work in a relationship? Like, like, because I one thing I didn't get an answer to, and it's just, it's my fault. I got away from it. But I'm assuming there's ebbs and flows to your, to your state of being like, how long did they last for?

Jules 24:28
So depression loss, like way longer, then? Well, that's interesting. An interesting question, I would say so I think I was telling you about how in 2021 I was starting to have like more like manic like symptoms because of those low blood sugars that were happening. And that kind of like set off a train that was going for like six months. Like I just like really did not sleep for more than like four hours for like six months straight and not really We affected me, I think like, the biggest way that affected me is that it's really hard to keep track of insulin. And like when you've taken out what your blood sugar was, I kept forgetting if I had taken it or not. So I guess that's a little bit of a no,

Scott Benner 25:15
no, no. But exhaustion. I mean, already is going to impact blood sugar. And right, and I see what you're saying. So you get so tired. You can't even track what's happening.

Jules 25:25
Right? But it was scary. Yeah, it's like scary to not be able to do that. Yeah,

Scott Benner 25:30
I mean, that you because right, you get into that moment where you're like, do I need insulin? Or don't lie? If I give myself some am I gonna get too low? Or if I get Yeah, well, that's terrible. So how did you did you? Are you were you able to figure it out or just live like that for six months.

Jules 25:50
I kind of just lived like that. I ended up going to the hospital again in July of that year. Because I that was like, one of the things I was experiencing. I was like, I can't do this by myself. And I was like, for some reason, I was like, I trust a nurse at a hospital to do this. For me, even though like they they really had no idea what they were doing.

Scott Benner 26:15
So did you check yourself in for diabetes reasons? No, for mental health, for mental health, but But thinking like, at least I'll get some help with my diabetes while I'm there as well.

Jules 26:26
Right? It was like, at least I don't have to worry about this aspect. Yeah, my mental health right now. Like I can just focus on like, my actual mental state. Right.

Scott Benner 26:35
So So was that a valuable experience for you?

Jules 26:39
I would say also, no. I think like, I mean, I honestly think just like, from my first experience going inpatient, I don't think I realized, like how much trauma was in my body from that experience. And then I went again, and I was just having this like, really awful trauma response that I didn't even know what was going on. I thought I just had some like mystery illness. But I was like, you know, I, one thing that's super weird that happens to me sometimes is my hands and feet will get really cold. And I learned that that's because like when you're in fight or flight, all of your, like blood flow will go to your major muscle groups, as your body's like preparing for you to like run away, or like fight or whatever. Yeah. Um, so I was like, really tense my hands and feet were really cold. I was shaking all the time. And it like, I was like, Is this what like, withdrawal is like, but I wasn't withdrawing from anything. So it was just like a really, it was a really intense experience, then I think my biggest issue with like, a psychiatric hospital is like, the medication aspect of it. Because they really just don't tell you what the medications are or what they do. They're just like, we think this will help you. And I took this one medication, it's like an older anti psychotic that just like really was so uncomfortable in my body. Like it really made the muscle tension so much worse.

Scott Benner 28:05
That's crazy. I mean, that's just it's yeah, it's the idea that you're so feeling something like like, obviously, you know, like fight or flight as an example. It's so necessary, but it gets turned up to a million. And then all of this happens, and I don't know how you're supposed to. I don't know how you're supposed to traverse that, you know, like, it's just, it's like, the switches in your head are just sending too much of one thing or not enough of another and, and then these are like the physical manifestations of those things happening, then that you don't match society's idea of how you should be and so they try to medicate you to put you back. Well, what would you want to have happen?

Jules 28:57
So this is actually something I think about a lot now that I've had like multiple hospitalizations, because I never want to go back. It's traumatizing. It's awful. I don't think any like psychiatric survivor thinks that they had a good experience. But so one thing that I've been like working on length the past, kind of like, what year is it? 2023. Like year, year and six months, is kind of like building support systems in order to survive that kind of thing again, because like I said, it really is just as long as I can, like, eat and sleep like I will be okay. Like it's not necessarily like, bad or wrong to feel all of the symptoms that I feel. It's just kind of like, if I can't take care of my body, then I'm like not going to do well. So one thing I've been working on is like kind of getting, like friends and people in my community to kind of like just be on deck. So that like if that happens again, they can like come over and just like sit with me and Like, you know, make me a sandwich or something. And then the other thing I'm working on is just kind of like being, like allowing myself to just, like, feel more safe with my emotions. I think that's another like aspects that made it really hard is that, you know, like the first time I had like any kind of like dramatic feelings in front of my dad, like, that's when I went to the hospital. And so now my body kind of associates like, Oh, you're having big feelings? Oh, you're going to go to the hospital now? Yeah. And so I'm trying to kind of, like disrupt that in my brain and be like, actually, like, it's okay to feel scared or feel really sad or things like that. Right?

Scott Benner 30:39
and express yourself without it, landing you in the hospital? How high? How successful have you been with pulling people like that together in your circle?

Jules 30:51
Um, well, the thing is, is I haven't had a super like crisis since this has happened. But I have like a couple of close friends who I've texted and been like, hey, like, if this happens, would you be able to just like, come over? And they were like, yeah. And so that's kind of like where we're at in the process right now.

Scott Benner 31:09
Do you? Do you think just knowing that they're willing to help is valuable?

Jules 31:14
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Benner 31:16
Yeah, I would imagine, right? Like, just to kind of keep away the fear from looming, right? Isn't does it help talking about it like this? Or does it bring it up and make it uncomfortable?

Jules 31:28
I know, I'm not feeling very upset at all right now. I think it feels good to like be less than two.

Scott Benner 31:33
Okay. Yeah. I, it's interesting that you've kind of taught yourself to, like, like the what you just said, like, I'm not feeling upset right now. I thought, Oh, I didn't ever consider if I'm upset or not. Yeah, you know, I just am or I'm not saying the same with like, happy, sad, bored. Like all of it like I, I don't see you almost are almost taught yourself to step outside of yourself to examine yourself. So you can make decisions that try to help you get to where you want to be? Yeah, it's interesting. What are your goals, then? Are you hoping to work? Are you hoping to do your art like? Yeah,

Jules 32:16
so I'm actually I just completed a certified peer specialist training. Are you familiar with peer support?

Scott Benner 32:23
I mean, I know the concept actually. Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Jules 32:28
So I have this certification in Pennsylvania that I would need in order to like work in that field. And I'm currently work looking for employment, like within the peer support specialist, you know, field.

Scott Benner 32:40
How long did it take to get the certification in

Jules 32:44
Pennsylvania to 75 hour training, and it was spread out over like four weeks.

Scott Benner 32:48
I feel like there's somebody else who's been on the show, who had their struggles, and then went this route with their profession. And they're doing really well now. But I don't know if it's exactly peer support, but I do remember his name. So I'm looking it up right now to see if I can figure it out. Hmm, interesting. I'm going to try to figure it out and get back to you on it. Because I don't want to take up our time here doing this. With I don't want to I don't want the silence while I'm figuring it out. And so do you think that the process of helping other people will help you stay on track?

Jules 33:29
Yeah, I absolutely do. I think like, the biggest thing for me is that I don't believe that psych ward should exist, like at all. I think like right now, like, as we are like, they are an important function of like, if you really don't have a place to go where you can be safe, like that can be a place. But I think just the concept of like locking someone up. Yeah, is really harmful. And I think that like, as a society, we kind of need to build more pathways for people to like, you know, maintain safety through a crisis. And I think peer support, have you heard of a peer respite house before?

Scott Benner 34:08
Peer respite house? I haven't heard that. No. Yeah,

Jules 34:13
so it's like similar to a psych ward in that it's like a crisis center, you can It's open 24 hours, you can go there. But the like, main difference is it's based on like the recovery model, not like the medical model that a psychiatrist would use. It doesn't lock you up, they won't like require you to take medication. And it's just kind of like, a safe place for you to go where you can, like meet a peer supporter and just kind of like, survive. And so that's kind of like, the direction that I would love to see happen of like, there isn't one in Philadelphia, which is where I live, you know, like my ambition for myself, which I don't know if will be realized, but like, my ambition for myself is for there to be one in Philadelphia and like, if that means me starting it, I think that'd be really cool. Like, I would love to do that.

Scott Benner 34:58
How do you You, like envision that working? So when someone's in a crisis, you would bring them in? And do what like, Well, how would it be different than the model that exists now?

Jules 35:13
Well, the biggest thing is that I think I like mentioned this a second ago is that peer support is based on the recovery model, which is basically saying like, and I mean, this is also my personal belief system, I don't necessarily think like psychiatric disorders are like a disorder or something wrong with you. But the recovery model also says, like, you know, you have strengths, and we want to work with you and your internal resources, like in order to kind of like, build you back up and like, bring you back to a place where you feel safe. Versus like a psychiatrist, or like a psychiatric hospital would be like, you know, you're having symptoms, you have a disorder, and so we're going to medicate you for this disorder. So that's the main difference. I think, just in general, like the, I think, the most important differences, honestly, like, there's no lock on the door. I think that's like, what can make us like word the most traumatizing is that, like if you're having a bad experience, so you can't just leave. And if you're in, like a respite house, like that is open to you and you're allowed to, do

Scott Benner 36:18
you think that they're not allowed to leave those situations that people aren't allowed to leave those situations? For safety reasons?

Jules 36:26
I mean, that's what they say. Yeah. I mean, I think like, in my experience, a lot of it is that they want to because you're taking medication, they don't want you to leave until you're kind of like on a like, quote, unquote, stable dosage of it. And you're like, symptoms have kind of evened out, which takes time. And I mean, they like, in theory wants to set you up with like, some kind of outpatient treatment program. But that doesn't actually always happen. Like my dad was recently hospitalized, and he kind of just went to like, nothing.

Scott Benner 36:59
He went to say that I'm not sure I understand what was he hospitalized for?

Jules 37:03
He was hospitalized for like depression and anxiety. Okay.

Scott Benner 37:07
Oh, that's interesting. So did did your experience help your dad, like bring his to light? Or did he know already? Oh, no,

Jules 37:15
he definitely didn't know I think. I don't think he even fully realized, like how much his anxiety affected him until, until like, he had this kind of like crisis. One thing that I think is kind of funny is I think, I mean, I'm autistic. And I think, like, you know, the whole autism is genetic thing. I think my dad is likely autistic too. And I think that's kind of like played into his experience in a way that he doesn't recognize or at least doesn't recognize yet.

Scott Benner 37:43
Right? Is that, is that a diagnosis for you? When did you learn that? Um,

Jules 37:47
so actually self diagnose. And I think I realized when I was maybe like, right around the time I actually first got diagnosed with bipolar is when I started to be like, Oh, maybe this is a possibility instead of bipolar.

Scott Benner 37:59
So what are the what are symptoms or ideas that led you to that?

Jules 38:04
First of all, like the medication inducing All of this made me really be like, I don't think this is like a genuine bipolar diagnosis. And when I look back on that experience, a lot of a lot of just like what I was experiencing kind of lines up a lot with autism in the way that like, I was really overstimulated when I was in the hospital. And that was like, causing a lot of distress. Right, like the bright lights, the like constant noise, I think about also like communication. And I mean, I think that's another thing that kind of goes when you're not sleeping very much, is that it's really hard to kind of like form coherent thoughts. But I think also, like, I struggle with communication, just like in my day to day life, and I think, like having that kind of crisis, like really just highlighted it, versus like creating a problem that wasn't already there, if that makes sense.

Scott Benner 38:54
Yeah. Do you have an example of struggling to communicate with people? Yeah, I mean,

Jules 38:58
things like, I don't really understand idioms very well. And I think just also, there's a lot of like, a kind of nonverbal communication that goes on that I'm not always able to pick up on.

Scott Benner 39:14
Do is sarcasm to sarcasm miss you too.

Jules 39:19
Typically, I actually do understand sarcasm or

Scott Benner 39:23
idiom, like that's interesting. That's a that's a that's a big so if you I just literally Googled examples, so I wouldn't have to come up with them. But like if I said, You hit the nail on the head, you don't that doesn't make sense to you. That one

Jules 39:38
I know. That's the thing is like a lot of them. I've heard so many times that I'm like, Okay, now I get it. But if it's the first time I'm hearing it like yeah, I probably wouldn't understand. You can't you can't put it together. Yeah, that's right. Like that doesn't make intuitive sense to me. Like what do you mean I'm not using a hammer?

Scott Benner 39:57
hit a nail on the head. You hit the nail on the head. You know, yours is not the first conversation I've had with somebody who's got a bipolar, like diagnosis, or even is struggling in this way, even if that's not your diagnosis. And it's, um, it's really an interesting conversation from my perspective, because you are either like you're experiencing life, unlike what the norm tells us, it's supposed to be like, like, like, like, so how the, I guess the average person experiences it. But does that make it wrong? Or in need of being fixed? Or is this just your experience, and you need to get through it? No differently than anybody else? Like, do you are you going to need somebody to come make sure you eat a sandwich every once in a while in your life, not unlike there are plenty of people listening to this right now, who can't make it out the front door of their house without 16 ounces of coffee in their hand. And, and they they think they're living a normal existence, but they don't sleep enough, their body doesn't have enough, you know, vitamins, nutrients, like they're not taking care of themselves in such a way that they have to like, give themselves caffeine to get up and move. Right. And we don't think of that as an issue. Like, no one, no one says, look at all those people going into Starbucks, while they're really living an unbalanced life. And, and so is the difference, self harm. Because people who don't get coffee aren't going to, like do something that is so socially outside the norm, that it ends in the harm of them or another person, like do you think that's the line.

Jules 41:48
So what I how I kind of conceptualize it is that psychiatry is kind of based around work in school. Like, if you look in the DSM, for every, like disorder to be diagnosed, there's like the little caveat that these symptoms are like causing impairment in your like, work or school life. So a person who's like relying on coffee and not getting enough sleep, like if they're still showing up to work on time, and they're still doing their work, like they probably won't be diagnosed with anything. It's really like when it gets to the level of like, you're not able to, like perform your little capitalistic duties that you get diagnosed with something. Yeah.

Scott Benner 42:26
Yeah, I It's interesting. I, I don't probably fit your vibe. But that is kind of what I see is that, like, the society has a stream, right? That just flows. And as a collective, we don't want people interrupting that stream. And if they do, then we move them off to the sides. And, and by the way, I don't know that that's not needed to keep us society moving. But it's the it doesn't make it right or fair to the person who gets slid off to the side because of it. Like one does it hurt? Like the life you've described? Obviously, I think, first of all, let me make sure I understand, not what you would choose if you had the choice, right. Like you just you probably prefer to just get up in the morning, go to work, do something you like come home, hug your wife paint the walls, like that kind of stuff. But so it's not it's not a life you would choose. But since it's it's given to you, and you have no ability to say no, thank you. I don't want this. You don't want to be marginalized. You still want to live your life. Is that am I about getting all that?

Jules 43:36
Yeah, I mean, I think one thing I've like heard a lot of the yogic survivors talk about is that the DSM and like just like yogic diagnosis in general, is like meant to be destigmatize, right to be like, oh, a lot of people literally say like, oh, you know, my depression is just like, diabetes, where it's like this physical thing that's going on, I take medication for it. You know, it's my, like, then I feel better like that narrative. Yeah. But I actually like I've experienced a lot of like, negative consequences just because of my diagnosis. One thing that actually happened is that after so I was in college when I went to the hospital for the first time, and I wasn't allowed to come back. I was allowed to finish my classes, but they were basically were like, you're a danger to yourself, and you can't live in your dorm anymore. And so like things like that are like, I don't think it's necessarily bad to like treat a mental illness because like, if you're suffering, I think you deserve help. But I think like, diagnoses can be so stigmatizing and like effect, like, have you ever heard about how, you know someone with a bipolar diagnosis might not be top on the list to get like a liver transplant, or things like that? Because they're seen as like you're responsible or like will make bad choices that will like impact. Oh, you know, their success? Yeah,

Scott Benner 44:55
I didn't know that. But I, as you're saying it, it stands to Isn't that that would be the thought process on that side? And then can you tell me they wouldn't let you come back to school. They said you were a risk to be a harm to yourself plan. I mean, I unfairly, like know a little bit about your story more than we've said so far. So why would they think that? So

Jules 45:20
one thing that happened is I actually met with a psychopath, like, there's like a school psychiatrist, who basically decided this. And she saw me when I was in the hospital, so I was like, really, really doing poorly. And I think that's kind of like what She based her decision on. But that's the thing too, is that they never communicated this to me. They never said like, this is exactly why we're doing this. They were just kind of like, this was her decision. And she's the doctor. So we will listen to her. Yeah.

Scott Benner 45:48
Did you? Have you ever tried to hurt yourself? No, no. Have you had ideation? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. Is that is that fairly common for you? Back then now? We're where? So I

Jules 46:01
mean, back then. No, it wasn't really something I was experiencing. I think I like kind of alluded to this when I was talking about how hard it was to take care of my diabetes when I really wasn't sleeping. And that's the point where I was like, I was really scared. I was gonna, like, accidentally overdose myself on insulin. And I was like, You know what, I would rather just like, take my own life. So I don't have to worry about that anymore. You know, like, if it's gonna happen by accident, I'd rather like do it on purpose. But no, at the time, I wasn't really experiencing anything like that. It didn't have to do with like, why I was hospitalized or anything? Yeah.

Scott Benner 46:36
Did you ever have a plan? Yeah. You had a plan? Okay. You knew the method, the whole the whole thing? Yeah. Okay. Did that go into anyone's decision about where they wanted you to be? So

Jules 46:52
I mean, while I was with my wife, they weren't super concerned about that. Because they were like, you know, I can keep you safe in our home. And I'll just, like, be there with you. But I was really scared. And I was like, I actually, that's why I like took myself to the hospital the second time in July 2021. Yeah, I was like, I am really scared. I'm gonna do something.

Scott Benner 47:13
Yeah. Do you have enough perspective to see why someone not experiencing what you're experiencing? Wouldn't want that around them?

Jules 47:25
I mean, I think so. I think it just kind of goes along with like, kind of the diagnoses that I like bipolar is a really stigmatized diagnosis like, and I think like, I think there's just like a normative expectation of like how you're supposed to be. And I think like, probably like, schizophrenic people experience this, to some extent to you, maybe even more so than someone with a bipolar diagnosis, but like, you know what I mean, like, I was acting like, not myself, like, I was like, saying wacky things and like, things that didn't make sense to other people. Yeah. And so I do, like, see, and I understand why. But I think I'd also just goes back to like, I don't think that being non normative is bad, right? I think it just is. No,

Scott Benner 48:08
I don't I agree with you. I'm trying to figure out when does it feel to someone else, like, I don't know, like, what's like a bombastic example, I can use, Oh, I like to my house kind of quiet. If I walked downstairs, and there was a rave in the living room, I'd be like, I need you all to leave. Like, like, this is not a thing I want around me. And if they said, Well, this is who I am, I'd be like, go be used somewhere else. And, and so it's, it's just such a, I can, what I want to say is that I completely understand as best I can, your perspective, and why your life should be yours. And you should live it the way that it's getting live, like. Like the way I'm living, is as much to do with how the chemicals in my brain are, are dialed up as your situation is, right. Like I can't like take credit for the fact that I don't have the issues you have, right, just as just as you can't take blame for yours. Like it's not on, it's not on purpose. It's not it's a thing that happened. And, and so everyone's deserving of their of their peace of mind and to live their life the way you know, the way that they want to or that they have to I guess it's just such a difficult issue. I don't know. And I was wondering how much of that like you can I don't know what the right word is like, like, how much of that you can appreciate and how much of that is lost because it's your situation. Does that make sense?

Jules 49:55
I don't know if I understand.

Scott Benner 49:59
I don't I'm trying to like find a way to like make the example but not. But I don't want to like my examples, not apples to apples, obviously, if I'm walking down the street, and a homeless man is talking to himself and running after me, that is, that's his body's living the way it's tuned. And it's not it's very likely not his fault that he's like that. I still don't want to deal with it. Like, I fully understand. Yeah. And but yeah. But, but as the society is, as a, as a thoughtful society, we should be dealing with it, we should be trying to help. But then what happens if the help that we can think to give is not the help he wants? Because that, that feels like your situation? Like, there's a world that you live in, and a world that's built to help people with your with your I don't know, your situation, right? And you don't like the way the world's decided to help you? And I don't know what the answer is beyond someone in your situation, being the person who offers the help, but then how the hell does that happen? Chills? Like, because isn't it possible that you won't be able to fulfill that responsibility? If you were to set something like that up? Do you see what I'm saying? I don't know. Like, it's so I'm flummoxed by, it almost feels like we're living on two different planes of existence. But But ya know, together. I hope all that made sense. Like I, yeah.

Jules 51:41
Yeah. And I mean, I think my response to that is kind of like, I think, just like the mental health system is so narrow, right? Like, there's like kind of one path for you to take if you're diagnosed with a mental illness. And like, to some extent, you have agency of whether you take medication or not, not typically like in an inpatient setting, but people with like, less severe conditions like don't necessarily, aren't necessarily like forced to take medication. But when I think about the example you gave of the homeless person, one thing I think about is like, how many of their problems would go away? If they just had a house? Like, would they be experiencing their mental health issues to that extent, like if they were just not living in such a stressful situation? And like, maybe, instead of automatically taking them to a hospital? Like, what if? What if we gave them a house, and I think there's a lot of things that kind of like fall under that umbrella? Like things like food insecurity can really affect your mental health, things like poverty? Yeah, even just like kind of living under chronic stress, a lot of us, like most of us are expected to work like way beyond our capacity that our bodies are able to work. And that can lead to all sorts of things. And like, it makes a lot of sense that you would be distressed, like under that circumstance. And so I think, like, the way I conceptualize it is like, I think there's so many ways that we could help mental health that aren't like the psychiatric system. Yeah, we just don't do it. Yeah. And the systems aren't in place.

Scott Benner 53:16
And you think that that doesn't happen, because in a, in a society that's built like ours, it's it's structured around you succeed. You get things you don't succeed, you don't you don't have things like i Listen, I'll tell you, I don't take a lot of time off. I definitely don't take as much time off as I should. But last week, for about 11 days, my wife and I just we, we left the house, like we just went off and visit our kids and you know, did that kind of stuff. So I wasn't working for me think I left on a Friday morning, drove all day, expense Saturday, through Saturday with my children. And then on Sunday, drove all day came home. But I didn't give myself off Monday, excuse me, I got up. I got up in the morning, and I went back to work, and I'm tired now. And I, I must have worked three weeks worth of my work to go away for 11 days. And then the stuff I couldn't get done before I left I pushed into this week. And I just got done telling somebody I have to get through this week so that I can maybe recenter myself for Monday. I have so many different support systems around me that even though I'm making a ton of bad decisions for myself about my sleep, and my workload, and my anxiety and you know, everything that goes on in my head, I'm going to get through it because I was because I was able to build structures around me to hold me up. And I was able to do that because my parents were able to raise me in a situation where that was possible to put me into a situation to better my life and all you need is one thing to You go wrong. And you not to be able to build those structures for yourself the way the society allows you to build them. And then it's just a spiral after that I imagine. Does that make sense? Like, I'm trying to put myself in that position, a position that I'm obviously not in. But I could be. If I didn't have a place to live, if I didn't have money, if I didn't have, you know, health insurance, I'd always be worrying about the most basic things. And with with no way out of them, I see what you're saying. I think I think I'm following you. Yeah. Wow. So what makes you want to come on the podcast, then?

Jules 55:44
I just wanted to tell you about like my diagnosis story, and kind of like how diabetes has like, played into all of these things. I think like, we often don't talk about, like the intersection of diabetes and mental health.

Scott Benner 55:57
Yes, so diabetes is difficult. on your best day. Right? So once you're dealing with all these other things, somethings that are skewing your ability to sleep or eat or focus. Does your wife help you with that? When it gets difficult? Or are you just struggling?

Jules 56:17
I think to some extent, they do help. But it's kind of like I have a lot of trouble, like letting them help. And I think it's also like, diabetes is a 24 hour kind of thing. Like if I wake up at two in the morning, and I have a low blood sugar like I like most likely, I'll be like the one gonna grab the juice box from the fridge. And like there, me, you know, my wife works. And so I can't necessarily like have them there. 24/7. So I think to some extent, like it is like I have to kind of carry a lot of it by myself, regardless of if I do get some help for it.

Scott Benner 56:53
Yeah. Well, is there anything that helps like, like structuring your day? certain ways, or? I mean, you said you're not working at the moment. So, I mean, obviously, I think you have more time, and that probably is valuable. But what do you have in place to help yourself?

Jules 57:11
I mean, I think like the diabetes Tech has helped quite a bit. Yeah, I actually, I'm not using a pump right now. But I was for a while. And I think like, having things kind of automated, just like helps with a mental burden link quite a bit.

Scott Benner 57:27
Can I ask you, I want to make sure I'm not doing the wrong thing. You've referred to your wife as your wife first, but then I just got they and them in a sentence. So am I doing okay, for you? Like, I'm not miss speaking?

Jules 57:40
I don't think you've messed under them. They do use they them pronouns. Even though they're my wife.

Scott Benner 57:45
I did not know that. So I've just like just now I went in reverse. And I was like, Did I mess this up? Okay, good. So you can't count on the person with consistency. It does need to be on you. Are you having the outcomes that you desire with your diabetes? Yeah, for sure. Well, that's cool. Do you have a CGM? Yes, so CGM, sometimes a pump MDI right now? And do you follow any kind of an eating structure?

Jules 58:21
I mean, I try not to restrict my eating because like, this is like part of my autism is that it's really hard for me to eat food sometimes. Just because of like, texture can be really overstimulating. So you know, I do my best to kind of just, like, keep myself on a schedule, and like, eat around the same time. But I don't like restrict, like, what foods I eat, if that makes sense. Yeah,

Scott Benner 58:43
describe that to me, you put a food in your mouth that has a texture, you don't like what happens next?

Jules 58:48
Oh, I just like can't eat it. Like the whole meal, it's just not going to go in my body. You

Scott Benner 58:56
can't just push that thing aside and continue on your way off? I say, yeah. Do you think of yourself as? How do you work? How do you think of yourself? Like when you if I said to you, if we just bumped into each other on the street? They were speed dating or something like that? And, and I said, Tell me about yourself? What would you say? I

Jules 59:19
mean, I think like, probably something similar to how I introduced myself at the beginning. I don't like to introduce myself in terms of like, professional kind of stuff. And I feel like I usually hold on to kind of like mental health diagnoses until like later on when I meet someone because I just always worry about, like, the perception of that and what that looks like.

Scott Benner 59:41
Do you do you have a friend structure around you? Like do you have a bunch of friends? Yeah, do how do you think they would describe you? That's

Jules 59:52
interesting. I guess like one thing I think about a lot is that my friends and I really enjoy astrology. So I'm in Aquarius and kind of like that. That's how I like get described a lot. I think it's like a lot of my traits are very like classic like typical, like Aquarius. So I think probably what my friends would say is like, I'm, I'm like an intelligent person I like, like to have kind of like stimulating conversations. You know, I like to read books. I like to just, I'm a very, like, playful and like silly person. And I'm like, compassionate.

Scott Benner 1:00:25
What kind of books do you read?

Jules 1:00:27
Right now? I, I've actually been reading a bunch of stuff about psychiatry. And then also, I'm reading like some fiction. I'm reading this, like, why a book that I read when I was a kid. And I've been reading a lot of Shirley Jackson.

Scott Benner 1:00:43
You like you like to escape when you're reading? Yeah. Okay, hold on. I had another thought. I was wrapped around your friends. What do you guys, when you get together? Like when your friend group gets together? What do you do?

Jules 1:00:59
I feel like we get together around like small parties a lot. Like we'll just kind of like have, like, my friend had a birthday party for their dog last year. And we had like a little Super Bowl party. I also play d&d. So that's one thing we do. And I like to just like the outside. Yeah, like go to the park, go hiking things like that.

Scott Benner 1:01:19
You called yourself. Do you say you were compassionate, empathetic? How did you describe yourself? Just? Yeah, I said compassionate, passionate, does that lead to you doing things for others? Or does it lead you to feeling bad about the things you're not doing?

Jules 1:01:39
No, it definitely leads me to do things for others. They definitely small things like, my friend got top surgery, and I like drove them to their like, you know, pre op appointment and things like that.

Scott Benner 1:01:48
Like you said, just you'll help when you can? Yeah, yeah, sure. And you see other people's struggles? Are you empathetic, like overly or to a level that you're comfortable with? Definitely, to a level I'm comfortable. I was around something the other day, where someone was just putting everything on themselves. You're like, oh, I need to know this. Because I have to. And I was and I was like, I'm thinking like, that's none of that's true. Like you, you're not, like, no one's expecting you to do this, you know, and gets the thing they put on themselves. So it's a, there's a healthy line in there between caring for people, and making it making you feel like you're failing constantly. So that's why I asked is just kind of fresh in my head. It's interesting. I mean, so you said you haven't had an episode in a while? How long has it been?

Jules 1:02:40
Well, I haven't had like a manic episode since 2021. And I mean, I kind of struggle with just like, I don't even know if at this point, I would call it depression. I think like, I write like, right now I'm feeling a lot of just like grief and rage. And those are like my primary emotions, but I don't necessarily think that's like anything, like clinical, you know,

Scott Benner 1:03:03
how does it How does it manifest start with grief? Like, what do you mean, you feel a lot of grief.

Jules 1:03:09
I mean, I feel a lot of just I think this kind of goes back to being an Aquarius, I feel a lot of like grief or like the collective of like, you know, all the people who die because they don't have health care because of COVID Or like, how the Earth is being polluted. And I think I kind of grieve like the lives that we could have if we lived under like, a different, even if we lived like in a different time period. Like all the things that would be different in our life, and all the ways that we could like access joy and like, access community and things like that. When I think Oh, go ahead,

Scott Benner 1:03:44
I'm sorry. If you have something to say go ahead. I can hold my thought.

Jules 1:03:47
Yeah, I mean, I think it just kind of shows up as like being sad a lot.

Scott Benner 1:03:51
Okay. When you think of living in another time period, do you go backwards or forwards? Usually forwards. Okay. So the the idea of the idea that it these things? Will we'll have more clarity as a species, hopefully in the future. And that yeah, kind of born in a time. Do you ever think? Well, at least I wasn't born at a time when? I don't know. But you know, 100 years ago? Why? I mean, honestly, just just with your mental health struggles. 5060 years ago, someone would have loaded you up on a drug thrown you in a room, you never want to come out again.

Jules 1:04:25
Right, exactly. I'm very grateful. I did not live in that time. Right. And

Scott Benner 1:04:30
that's not that long ago.

Jules 1:04:32
I know. Yeah. Right. Like I would have gotten a lobotomy if I was born in like 1920 or something, you know, very

Scott Benner 1:04:40
possible. Like you know, joking. Very possibly. My kid one of my kids asked me one time like, why is why does it feel like homelessness is is expanding? And I said, dude, 60 years ago, anybody who showed any mental health but it just got thrown into a facility you never would have seen them again. Their family like families used to drop people off. Like Like almost with the like, Well, this one didn't work out here you go in like like that, that kind of thing. And, and so when you think about the future you're hoping almost like in a Star Trek way that things are our maybe we find our way better and what? How nice would that be if everybody can kind of live like that? Yeah, yeah. So does you Do you not feel any? So the way I think about that is that I look back at progress, like when I hear people think, say things like things are so bad right now I'm like, well, Ganga scones not chasing us around the continent. So it's actually not going so bad at all, you know? Or, you know, even people talk about like, like social things from the time and I'm like, 50 years ago, this was way worse, like, we are absolutely moving forward. And it's just not fast enough for my life. Like, it's not going to, it's, it's not gonna, it's not gonna hit me, like, I'm not gonna get the benefit from this, like, that I understand a sadness about do you feel that way? Like, stuffs gonna get better? And I'm not going to be here for it? Oh,

Jules 1:06:13
yeah, for sure. I mean, I think like, kind of what we're all living through right now is like, we're just all living through a crisis. And I think there's going to be a time after the crisis when like, we can kind of, you know, repair as a society. But I think we're not at that point. And I don't know if we'll be at that point during my lifetime. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:06:31
And so you can't let go of that. The idea that like, this, is it and I'm just going to ride the ride I was given? Yeah,

Jules 1:06:40
I mean, I don't know. I think grief is a healthy feeling, to some extent. Like, I think grief comes from love, right? Like, it wouldn't be a loss if we didn't, like love what we're losing. So I tried to think of it like that as like, it's unnecessary. And like, it's kind of like a hopeful feeling, too, I think, in a way. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:06:59
Okay. So are you not able to just say, like, this is it like, there's this, like, society is under mankind is under a slow progression? This is the piece of it that we get? And like, because that's how I think of it, I think, like, how cool is it, that when I was your age, right, like, computers were just like, barely valuable in people's lives. Or that, you know, like, cell phones, like, I'm, I have this thing, you have a thing, right? It's got more computing power than the thing we sent the first space shuttle into space with, like, that's, that's crazy. And, and I'm getting to see all this. I have said this, Joseph, maybe you'll find this interesting. I once said to somebody, I would give away the last 10 years of my life, to come back for one year, every 100 years. Just just just like if I'm gonna die at 75, let me die at 65. But 100 years from then I get to come back for 12 months. And then 100. Like, I would love to see what happens. And I think that's an existential problem. Like, like, that's just the, that's hard to regulate, like, and if I guess if you're, I guess if you're having difficulties already, like, do those thoughts become intrusive, and you can't get rid of them? What happens there for you? Well, I

Jules 1:08:28
guess that's a really cool idea. I thought I would love to come back for a year. 100 years from now, no, but what I think about a lot as I think, like, in 2021, I was experiencing this a lot. It's really hard to kind of conceptualize, like, all of the ways that oppression, it's hard to like sit with all the ways that oppression has affected me and not like, like, not lose myself in it. Because I think a lot about like, I'm a disabled adult, and that affects like, every aspect of my life and right like being a diabetic. I'm about to turn 26 There's, like always that fear of like, what will my health insurance look like in a year? And I kind of forgot where I was going with this. Actually,

Scott Benner 1:09:14
let me let me say this and see if it comes back to you. I think that we are not capable yet. Humans of taking in as much information as is currently available to us. And you're trying to process more than your brain was meant to do. Like you are not supposed to know what's happening to the people in Sub Saharan Africa right now. You're not supposed to know about that. That's the thing happening to them. They're in an ecosystem. That's almost all of themselves. We invent travel. Right? So now you can go to places and see what's happening somewhere else. Okay, fair enough. But that's still linear, right? You have to go there. Stay there be involved in it, you either decide to stay and now you're a part of it or you decide to leave and it's gone. Again, you don't know about it anymore. But now, we know. In the course of any day, you know about every lawsuit, every company that's done something wrong, you know about every person who was shot today, you know about every, you know, the homeless statistics, you know, the statistics about fentanyl. You know that there's a cartel here doing this, and you know, that they're, you know, there's homelessness here and you hear about oh, in California, there's encampments. And God, that's terrible, all those homeless people. You're not meant to figure those things out. And but now you're trying to, and that, that's overwhelming.

Jules 1:10:45
It absolutely is. Yeah, yeah. And I think like, really, the crux of it is that, like you know about all these things, but you don't have the power to make it better.

Scott Benner 1:10:53
Well, you have two options, right, you can either dead, or you can either pick a thing and dedicate your life to trying to help it which you which, which, I don't know if that would take away your concerns about everything else. Or you do what what adults end up doing, which is just saying, like, I have no agency over that. It's not a thing I can concern myself with. And, and, and say, I'll tell you how I make myself right with it. The planet has been here for much longer than we know. And we're all here. So basically, if I do nothing, everything's still gonna be okay. And what is okay, okay, is whatever's going to happen, because we don't have that much sway over it to begin with. You take things like, like, like, there's one person who might tell you like, oh, slavery, that's over. But then another person might say to you, Well, no, they're slavery all over the world. Still, that's true. I that's terrible. There are girls and boys right now who are imprisoned in places to sex slaves. That's a real thing that happens in 2020 30. You and I can't do anything about that. Like, are you could you could go find a foundation who works on that and put your, put your acid to it, and just put all your effort into it and try to help it. But and you you should. But if you want to, but you have to let go of the idea that you can impact all of these things. And that, because I mean, that I mean, I was just gonna be political and say like, it'll make you crazy. Right. Right. Like, like, if you really look at all the things that are wrong. It if you can't say to yourself, time will eventually smooth this out. Or it won't. But I hope it does. You know, and I'm going to just, I don't want to say something stupid, but like think globally, act locally, right? Like, I'm going to live the best life I can. And that's how I think of it like, I'm going to do what I think is right. And I hope that that has a ripple. And hopefully that ripple will impact people. And it can do it personally. Like it's impacted my children. And hopefully they'll do that, you know, so now maybe it'll be more like skipping stones, and my ripple will create another ripple, and maybe it'll reach farther. But I don't know, like, you're, you're a lovely person. And I hate to think of you out there trying to figure out space travel and homelessness. Because those are, those are big ideas. You know, I don't know like is, do you know that intellectually?

Jules 1:13:32
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think that's something like as I've kind of, like, I don't want to say grown up, I don't feel grown up. But as I've like, transitioned to my 20s, I think that's something I've been kind of reconciling with is like, I really like I, I can't fix it all as much as I want to you. i It honestly, like, it feels like I can't even do that much at all. Because a lot of like mutual aid work that goes on around me is like, requires you to either like donate money or to like donate labor. And I don't really have like either of those to be able to donate. And so I think like, that's something I've been kind of reconciling with too, is that like, there are ways I can make an impact. And I think like the way that I kind of think about that is just kind of like, affirming the value of every human life feels like the biggest impact that I can have. I've just been like, treating everyone as if they're so important, because they are and like doing what I can to kind of like support the people who are in my life. Right? Even if that's just giving them a ride to the doctor, you know, your art.

Scott Benner 1:14:34
And you're in the city, right? You're in Philly? Yeah, I mean, you could, you could volunteer at a shelter. You could you could ladle soup, you could do a lot of things that would actually physically help somebody in that moment. And maybe that would make maybe that would make you feel better, you know, like to be physically doing something. There's this thing that that listen, there's two things here I want to talk So when I was younger, I was idealistic, like anybody else. And you'd look at older people and you say, Oh, they don't care, they care about their money, and they care about their retirement. They're not thinking about the world anymore. But but as I gotten older, I thought, well, that is true for some people. But there are other people who have just seen the writing on the wall, so many times that they're like, I'm gonna stop banging my head into this wall, like, this is how this goes, I don't seem to have any impact on this. And it's not that they don't care about it, they let it go. My wife and I always said that a good measure of ourselves will be as we become more successful as we get older, do we stick to the values that we had when we were younger? And we've we've done that, but my perspective is different. You know, being like, big, there's a moment in our conversation where you said, like, you know, if homeless people just had a home, like, and I thought, yeah, that makes total sense. I talked about having structure around you and everything. But you know, there are plenty of people are going to hear that and go, Hey, if you want a house, get a job and buy it. And like and so when those are those, like those two kinds of feelings, the middle is the utopia, like drawing everybody into the middle, so everybody can see everybody side is how you end up at Star Trek. It Right. And, you know, I, I've used this example before, but somebody I know, like kind of periphery. We're talking about the hurricanes that now happened, like 15 years ago in in New Orleans. And this person said to me, Well, why didn't they leave? And I responded, and I said, Can you imagine for the want of a car not being able to save your own life? Or, or $50 to get on a bus and just say, hey, go go that way. You know, I was, like I said, some of those people are in such a state, they couldn't even afford or conceive of how to save their own life. Like for an amount of money, you might go to a restaurant, and blow tonight on a meal for a couple of people, they could have got away. And instead you're watching them standing on the roof hoping for a helicopter come to them and your responses. Why didn't they leave? Like that? That's productive, you know? And, but I get what he's saying, like, and because then as I made that point to him, and he said, Well, yeah, man, but I went to high school and I paid attention, I went to college, and I paid attention. And I got a job that didn't pay anything. And I worked hard at it, and I moved up. And I'm like, I see where he's coming from. And but I responded with, some of these people are involved in what would be generational poverty. Like they don't, they have no pathway, there's no light in front of them, they don't know where to go, you know, their expectations are so low, I think that they, they can't even conceive of how to get out of this. And you have now a decision to make, you could you could see their situation. And even if it's honest, not be so harsh, or you could choose to be more generous with your interpretation of their situation, and help them you know, but but tools I want to, but what I wanted to tell you is that social media has, here's, here's your perspective, for the reason I told you the first story, so I can tell you this, right, like, I have a different perspective than I did when I was young. And one of the perspectives I have is of people your age and younger, who think that putting something on Instagram is advocacy, or that they're changing the world with a picture or by putting up a quote or something like that, that they're going to they're going to create this ripple, you know, five likes at a time. And, and I'm going to tell you that it'll make you feel good. And you will be signaling to the world that you think in a generous way about this. I don't know how much it helps anything. Because in the end, the people with the money still make the decisions. That makes sense, Jules what I'm saying?

Jules 1:19:05
Yes, yeah, that's something I like think about sometimes, too. Yeah, cuz I mean, sometimes I think it's like a performance almost.

Scott Benner 1:19:14
Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's virtue signaling. They're just like, look, I think I think the right thing, I'm okay. You know, and, and it's funny because I'm a person. I think you would think if you and I sat down privately and talked about a ton of different social issues could be like, Hey, I think Scott's on the right side of a lot of this stuff. I don't spend any time telling people how I feel about it. I just do it. You know, like, I made this podcast to help people and it and it does, and great. I don't spend a lot of time telling people that I made a podcast that help people I just keep making the podcast. And that's why I wondered for you, if actually walking out side and do winging a thing doesn't really matter what it is. Like if you wouldn't feel more grounded to reality that way, like, like, step away from your phone kind of an idea. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're already a person in your situation, right? Like, go back over it, you describe being depressed as a kid, you get these headaches, it turns into bipolar, you've got you're not sure that that's your actual diagnosis, you think you you have some autism leanings, and you get type one diabetes, that's a lot of shit that happened to a person, right? And then on top of that, all of your input is telling you that the world is not right. And you have to fix it, and you have no pathway to fix it. I wouldn't want to live like that. That would that would be that would be painful. You know, I don't know if that's helpful or not. But it's just, those are the things I wanted to tell you. So yeah,

Jules 1:20:56
yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I think like what I've been working on in the last few months is really focusing in on like, what do I have agency to do as a person? Yeah. Yeah. Like, this might sound silly, but I want to plant flowers this year. And that, like feels like a way that I can like, make the world a little bit better, to

Scott Benner 1:21:13
great idea, that absolutely terrific idea. And put yourself in charge of being responsible for them. I find, I find that, that caring for something that has no real need, meaning it can't, it can't tell me like you screwed up. But I still treat it but I still treat it like it's the most important thing in the world. I think that's helpful. I also think, I don't know if this is connected or not. But people I keep cactuses. Not a lot of them. I have a few of them. And I've had people tell me like the other bland like, there's no flowers, and they grow so slow. And I said yeah, I think cactus is teach me patience. And the explanation to that is, they grow so slow, and they need so little from you. But you're still responsible for it. And, and you learn to look at that thing once a year and say to yourself, oh my god, it grew a half an inch. And that, and that feels like a real accomplishment. Like, I can't, I don't I mean, I kept this thing alive long enough, and it grew a half an inch. And and most people would say, well, that sucks. Like, it's a half an inch, I want it to grow three feet, or I want it to be huge. I wanted. And I say no, I say that's what that thing wants. And that's what it needs. And I'm facilitating it. I don't know, I swear to you that having a cactus has made me a more patient person. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Because I want to see I want to see it. Blossom. When it takes a lot of time. And that's okay. Yeah, and I think that's part of what has you flummoxed is that you want things you want it to be 300 years from now right now. And that's not going to happen. And you don't have a way of making that okay for yourself. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry. You also said rage. That it was like a hammer was like a half an hour ago, Jules, but I know I'm keeping you longer than I said I would but I have like 15 more minutes if you do like what's rage feel like?

Jules 1:23:28
I actually wrote a poem about this recently. It feels like lava bubbling up inside of me. Like it feels so like visceral. But I think it kind of is the same. Kind of like origin of the grief. I think it's just like a different side of it. Of like, yeah, like I feel a lot of rage about like all the people who have power in the world who are like deciding to like harm other people.

Scott Benner 1:23:55
Just let it out.

Jules 1:23:58
No, not really, you

Scott Benner 1:24:00
should hit something not a person. Like Like, like a thing. Like Like, are you You didn't you haven't mentioned it yet. But do you have any like athletic leanings? I used

Jules 1:24:10
to it's just been really hard in the past like year or so. I haven't mentioned this yet, but but I had COVID in July last year since then. I've had like crazy fatigue.

Scott Benner 1:24:20
Yeah, I had it I had an October kick my ass for a while was not Yeah. Okay, so we'll talk about that in a second but let it out some out. I mean, yell into a pillow. Go for a walk. Like seriously like hit a heavy go to a gym you're in Philly, there's got to be a boxing gym somewhere go into a corner hit a bag for 15 minutes and leave like like some way to like, because that's one of those things where I don't know like how far down this rabbit hole we get. But you know, like you hear people talk about like, you know, it was it was big for a while to talk about toxic masculinity Right? Like how guys are like, but like, you know, I'm Guy and it needs to come out sometimes, you know what I mean? Like, sometimes you just have all this, like, testosterone and this feeling of responsibility. And this idea that you're supposed to be taking care of things and like all that stuff builds up. And then we like we live a lifestyle where nobody lets it out. And the more you're gonna be like, there's, you know, that's, I think that's why you hear people talk. So like, lovingly about hunting, and fishing and football and like the things where they can just go be an animal for a while, and it's, and it's a release, you know? And if you can, if you're constantly modulating yourself and telling yourself, these are not good feelings to have, I think then you're kind of denying, like, the physiology of yourself, like, right, like, this is how I feel like, I'm not a bad guy. I'm not going to go out and punch somebody in the face for no reason. But I do need this out of me. I think I think about it that way. Sometimes. I wonder if you couldn't find a way to let it out? Yeah, you know, yeah,

Jules 1:26:00
I'm sure there's a way

Scott Benner 1:26:02
Yeah, I mean, you got time figure it out, like try a thing. And if it doesn't work, try another thing. Get a dumbbell and do curls. Like in your apartment, you know, the mean, or wherever you live? Just like, like, put effort into something like I think sometimes just good, honest. Exercise is a good reliever for depression. And a lot of those feelings, too. I don't know. Yeah. lean into it instead of the internet. I mean, the opposite. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to? know? I don't think so. Did I do okay? Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel now? any different than when we began? Honestly, I

Jules 1:26:42
feel really hungry.

Scott Benner 1:26:45
I made you hungry. Just lunchtime. Is your blood sugar. Been Okay. During all this?

Jules 1:26:54
I haven't checked. Yeah, it's all good. Oh,

Scott Benner 1:26:57
cool. That's excellent. Do you get bloodwork done for like the normal stuff? Like do you look for thyroid issues? In your blood work? Do you? You know, do you know where your vitamin D level is? Like those sorts of like things?

Jules 1:27:11
Yeah, definitely. We track all of those things. Good. Good. Oh, that's great.

Scott Benner 1:27:16
I don't know I really very much enjoyed speaking to you. I hope you had a good time. Yeah,

Jules 1:27:21
thank you for taking the time to talk to me. Nice.

Scott Benner 1:27:23
was wonderful. Would you hold on a second? Yeah, thanks.

A huge thanks to Jules for coming on the show and sharing this amazing story with us. And I also want to thank ag one and remind you to drink ag one.com/juicebox. I said earlier, but if you are enjoying the after dark episodes, there are many more of them. You can find them at juicebox podcast.com, or the feature tab of the private Facebook group. As a matter of fact, I'm going to run another afterdark next week. Again, if you're enjoying the show, please subscribe or follow in the audio app you're listening in right now and turn on your automatic downloads so that you don't miss an episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.