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Scott Benner: Hello friends, and welcome to episode 1074 of the Juicebox Podcast. Welcome back to the fourth installment of the Parenting Series with myself and Erica Forsyth. Today's episode is Creating Boundaries and Expectations. Please remember while you're listening that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise. Always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. If you're looking to find Erica, she's at ericaforsythe.com. She can help you virtually or in person, depending on what state you live in. Erica is not just a terrific therapist. She's also a 30 plus year type one. iPhone users, please listen. If you're listening in Apple podcasts, there's been a recent update to your operating system. If you've done that update and you're on iOS 17 now, your podcast app may not be downloading the podcast the way you expect it to. Go to your podcast app, choose the show, go to the three dots in the top right corner, choose settings, go down to automatic downloads and set it to download all episodes. That way you won't miss an episode of the juice box podcast. I don't know where you're currently getting your diabetes supplies from, but Arden gets hers from US Med. usmed.com slash juicebox or call 888-721-1514. I want to personally thank US Med for being a longtime sponsor of the podcast and for sponsoring this episode. If you're interested in getting your supplies the same way we do, check out the website usmed.com slash juicebox. or call 888-721-1514. Get your free benefits check, and you'll be on your way. Just for everyone listening, I'm really excited about what we're doing here, but I'm more excited about what Erika told me she's gonna tell me after we record the podcast. Let's see, we're gonna do... Hi. Hi, Erika's like, it's me. Let's see, Erika has put together a lovely outline for today's episode. This is episode four of the parenting series, Creating Boundaries and Expectations. So why don't you walk everybody through, you kind of have like a three tiered map here for me. Tell me why you put it together the way you did.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. Okay. So I think it's first, it'll be helpful for us to understand what is a realistic boundary or realistic rule, why we set them for our children along with why we set realistic expectations. And I think when we think about boundaries, we think for, and also I want to make sure we do this kind of in a developmental age appropriate way, but for little children, we think about boundaries usually around physical boundaries. Like don't, don't run across the street, don't touch the hot stove, keep your hands to yourself. So we think about these physical boundaries, but I also want us to make sure we think about the emotional boundaries that we set for our children. For example, a physical boundary, we, as I said, let's say, we'll start with the keep your hands to yourself. Okay, why is it important for your child to follow that rule? Well, so that they don't hurt the other child, and then they don't get hurt in response. how do we reinforce that realistic boundary with our child? And this is where I think we can get into a little bit deeper discussion is having the really emphasizing empathy and self-awareness. And I think as parents, we often think, well, empathy is like an older, more mature concept for children to get. But if we start teaching our children when we're setting these boundaries and rules and expectations about empathy and self-awareness, that helps them grow into being really responsible teens and adults.

Scott Benner: So let me ask you a question. So the idea of like, just don't put your hands on other people without permission, right? Is that teaches you to understand how the other person might feel? Right, it's more about that interaction than just, you don't touch people because you don't do it. Like, there's more to it than that.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: That's right, that's right. So the empathy piece, so you could even do this with a two-year-old when they're learning, you know, in preschool or they're getting out in more social interactions. Like, okay, we don't put, we keep our hands to ourself. Why? Because you can, how would you feel if Johnny pushed you? they understand that concept. Another way to model that or illustrate that is when they're watching a TV show or reading a book, like, wow, look at these two little boys are arguing or two little girls are arguing and they're pushing each other. How do you think they each feel? And so constantly asking them, How do you think you would feel if your friend did that to you? That is teaching them empathy. The next piece is the self-awareness, right? So first we're wanting to demonstrate that the physical boundaries around how would the other person feel going into the other person's physical area, but then also having the self-awareness of how do you feel when someone crosses into your physical or emotional zone? And that's the self-awareness piece.

Scott Benner: So not only can you absorb it for, oh, I would not enjoy that, but then you have a deeper understanding of how they might feel, which might in turn stop you from putting your hands on them in some way. That's right. It's a real learning process. Did I do the wrong thing when I told my kids, if you hit somebody, you should expect they might hit you back? because that's kind of how I told them.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Well, that's that's like, you know, action and every action has consequence type of, you know, learning. Did you do the wrong thing? I think that's it's a different way of, you know, teaching them that they're the if they're if they're not being empathetic, there's there might be a consequence.

Scott Benner: Right. I was also trying to teach them like levels of thought, like, you know, say you're so upset that you push somebody. It's a great example that you used, right? I don't know that people then think, well, that will either make them upset or make them defensive. And then they're going to come back at you and you don't know what level of violence they're going to come back to you with, which led me to the next thing that I taught them was don't screw with people because you don't know how far they're willing to go. Like you don't know their story, you know, like their story in the moment or their life story, you know, a shove to you might just be like, ah, but to them it could be time for war. Like you have no idea like what their level of understanding is.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, yes. I mean, and that's obviously a really mature concept for a child to pause when they're in the moment, their adrenaline's going and they want to reach out, right? But teaching them the social skills in the moment is really the most effective way for them to learn and practice right then. But obviously going back and teaching them the correct way to act in that moment is also helpful. So there's this Yes, kind of give and take of like, okay, how would you feel if someone did that action to you? And then the self-awareness pieces, how do I feel, right? Like how am I feeling if someone touches me or pushes me or says something that I really, I don't feel good about when they say that to me? Right. and being able to then advocate for yourself, right? Say, oh, that doesn't feel good physically or emotionally. Understanding A, what that feels like for role-playing, modeling for your child, and then giving them the skills and the verbiage to say, gosh, please stop. I don't like that.

Scott Benner: So these are skills, the earlier they're taught, you're talking about repetition, the earlier they're taught, the more likely they are to be able to bake them into their lives, and you are gonna need them as an adult. You are going to be a 35-year-old person one day that needs to turn to your mom and go, it doesn't feel good when you say that. I know you're saying it for this reason, I'm trying to take it that way, but it makes me feel poorly, here's why. Everybody who has diabetes has diabetes supplies. but not everybody gets them from USMed, the way we do. usmed.com forward slash juicebox, or call 888-721-1514. USMed is the number one distributor for Freestyle Libre Systems nationwide. They are the number one specialty distributor for Omnipod Dash, the number one fastest growing tandem distributor nationwide, and they always provide 90 days worth of supplies and fast and free shipping. That's right, USMed carries everything from insulin pumps to diabetes testing supplies right up to your latest CGMs like the Freestyle Libre 2 and 3 and the Dexcom G6 and 7. They even have Omnipod Dash and Omnipod 5. They have an A-plus rating with the Better Business Bureau and you can reach them at 888-721-1514 or by going to my link usmed.com forward slash juicebox. When you contact them, You get your free benefits check, and then if they take your insurance, you're off and going. And U.S. Med takes over 800 private insurers and Medicare nationwide. Better service and better care is what U.S. Med wants to provide for you. USmed.com forward slash juicebox. Get your diabetes supplies the same way Arden does from USmed. Links in the show notes, links at juiceboxpodcast.com to USmed and all the sponsors. When you use my links, you're supporting the show.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, I mean, these are like such crucial skills to give your child to, yes, understand how the other person's feeling, but also understand when your boundary is crossed physically or emotionally and being able to advocate for yourself in that way and not become like, it's okay, it's okay, and want to avoid conflict or people pleasing, all of those things.

Scott Benner: Yeah, what else do you get out of telling a person how their actions or words make you feel. Is there a resolution that happens for you when you do that?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So you, well the resolution is hopefully that the person doesn't continue. And I think this can even, I know we're talking about this in like child to child interaction, but even in a parent-child dynamic, when you're setting a boundary or the child's trying to communicate, do you, one of the common examples that you might hear or read about is like, you know, you like to tickle the kid and the kid's like laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. And then he's like, stop, stop, stop. And you think they're kind of joking. I mean, I remember this as a kid too. And it is kind of funny and fun, but then at some point, you also get to teach your child like, okay, are you saying no? Is this a boundary? Have I crossed it? Is this fun or funny? But then teaching the kid how to tell your child to say, no, this is, okay, please stop now. I'm done. And so then the resolution is you're teaching the child that you're also validating what they're saying to you, and you're listening to them. So you're teaching them boundary setting, self-advocacy, and in a bigger parent-child dynamic, I hear you, I see what you're saying, and I'm going to stop, and I'm going to validate your needs.

Scott Benner: They get to see what it feels like to be respected, and therefore may be more likely to respect people in return, knowing what good feeling it delivers to them.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, absolutely. And wanting to reinforce that over and over by offering and then saying, wow, I thank you so, you know, I really appreciate that you, because oftentimes I know as a parent, we might feel like, oops, I crossed the line. I messed up, or I'm not going to really listen to the child. They're probably just being silly, but praising, saying, wow, thank you so much for communicating what you really needed in that moment. And if you did cross their own physical or emotional boundary, it's okay to say, I'm sorry, I did that. So then you're modeling, it's like we're constantly trying to model because they do what they see.

Scott Benner: I find telling my kids that I appreciate that they shared something with me is really helpful. It's hard to do because it always happens in the worst moments. It always happens in a moment where you're like, oh, I messed that up. You're just sitting there thinking, I didn't do this right, and now look where we've gotten. They, you know, have the courage to express it to you. And that's when you really got to just swallow the rest of whatever's going on in your head and just say, I appreciate you telling me that, you know, I'll I'll remember next time. And if I don't, tell me again, please. Because I don't I don't mean to do this.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes.

Scott Benner: Stuff. People's intentions are generally good. They're just execution is usually the crappy part. So, yes.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I think modeling that and then modeling to your if and your partner, you get to practice the physical boundary setting, excuse me, the emotional boundary setting, when let's say you're engaged in a conflict and you maybe have crossed some boundaries to check in and say, you know, this is what I hear you say, or did I make a mistake? Did I offend you? How can we move forward? And so children also get to see you model that like, okay, oops, there were some boundaries crossed. They said some things. because, you know, kids are going to hear us have conflicts sometimes, that's okay, to then practice that repair work when we do cross some of those emotional boundaries for them.

Scott Benner: Okay. Physical boundaries, advocating for yourself, emotional listening to others, being empathetic. I feel like that's covered, but do you have more to say about that or are we good on that part?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I think this piece too, yes, I skipped. As a young child in elementary school, they're learning how to listen to the teacher, they're learning how to listen to their friends, and how to put their empathy hat, so to speak, on in those moments to tell them, you know, it's really important to listen to other people when they're speaking, just as you want other people to hear your needs. You want people to understand how you're feeling and what's really important to you. And that's why we want to also listen to other people, just kind of constantly putting on that like empathy. How does it feel when someone physically crosses your line and how does it feel when someone doesn't really listen to what you're trying to say? And that's often when we see, you know, There's all sorts of behaviors, tantrums, right? If they don't really know, A, how to communicate what they're feeling, but then also when they're feeling like, hey, no one's really getting what I'm trying to say. Instructing, modeling for them. I really, it's so important to listen to other people just as you want people to listen to you.

Scott Benner: I think it's incredibly important. I'm 52, and it still bothers me like I'm five years old if it feels like somebody's not listening to me. And that has to be from the way I grew up. So if you don't want your kid to feel like that 50 years from now, do what Erica is saying now, skip all that problem for them. I mean, it's not a thing that I'm not crippled by it or anything like that, but I can feel like at the very center of the back of my brain, it's upsetting to me to feel like I'm not being heard. And I don't even mean like in the podcast, I mean like in personal relationships. You know what I mean? Like here, it's fine. I say what I say and you'll listen or you won't, it's fine. But, um, but, but I mean, like in my personal relationships, if I don't feel, if I don't feel understood, I'm off balance until I can figure it out. It's interesting.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So, and then as a result, I imagine though, you've learned when that boundary has either been crossed or not met, you're then able to maybe articulate like, Hey, I don't, I feel like my needs aren't being met or you're not hearing me.

Scott Benner: Yeah, I mean, I can feel it coming, but it doesn't always stop. You're not listening. You're not hearing what I'm saying. And the closer I feel to you, the worse it feels when it happens. And it's not like a bad thing. It's not like somebody's willfully not listening to me. I don't think that actually even happens in my life. But if I try to explain myself to my wife, for example, and she's not understanding how I feel, and if she's not understanding my intent, but more importantly is, in my opinion, misrepresenting what I'm doing, I'm almost a little crushed. I'm like, no, that's not what I'm saying. And then it's frustrating that I apparently can't say what I feel in a way that is receivable by another person. And then it's just like it's a spiral from there. Yes. Anyway, I mean, so you tell me I could just do these things. Somebody could have done this with you. And I was like, for I would have not gone through this. I would have been amazing. Well, let's dig my mom up and yell at her. I'm just kidding. My mom's been dead long enough for us to joke about it, hasn't she? No. Oh, stop. It's fine. She would have thought it was funny. OK, OK, OK.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Moving on.

Scott Benner: modeling behavior for children, and then the idea of reflective listening that I always kind of need just maybe described to me.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yeah, so that's again, that is you can feel so validated and someone you can more easily empathize with someone when what you were just describing, the example, when you share how you're feeling with somebody and either A, you're not either communicating it clearly or B, the person isn't able to understand it and for whatever reason, then that's when maybe your wife could say, this is what I hear you say. and then you get the opportunity to say, no, this is, I'm saying, I feel this way. And you keep going until you've been able to articulate exactly, you know, I feel this way when, and then the person who's practicing the reflective listening says, I hear you say that you feel this way when. Right. And again, I know we've talked about this in the communication episode. It feels silly, but it can feel connecting and you're just validating and then you're under, you're really able to empathize with the person because you're like, wow, okay, so you feel really disappointed or sad when I do this thing.

Scott Benner: I just want to tell guys that in most of your married situations, the last sentence will be spoken by your wife who feels a certain way and it negates all the ways you feel. And then you lose and it's over. And I know it's not about winning and losing. I take my victories morally. When I see on her face she gets it, I don't even sometimes ask her to say it out loud. I'm like, that's enough, she knows. It's not important for her to say it out loud. And I don't mean like winning and losing. And I think that's important because I'm sure I do the same thing. Like, I've heard you now. I know you're right. And whatever that is inside of you, I can't get it out to say I'm wrong. But anyway, it's important. That's why it's so important to do this stuff with the kids, because it gets harder and harder the older you get. And I think people could get concerned, too, if they're going to raise soft children. Do you know what I mean? Well, I don't want my kid being a marshmallow and just taking people's crap, et cetera. Those are not the same two things, in my opinion. Being able to stick up for yourself and being concerned with how other people feel and understanding how you make other people feel, those two things are not the same thing to me. That's right.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: having empathy for other people is really a powerful tool and also understanding how you feel in certain situations is equally as powerful for yourself and for your relationships, right? And so to not only have the reflective listening skill as a parent to your child, but partner to partner, I think Ultimately, what you're doing is building that relationship, and it's from the parent-child perspective. You are telling them and showing them, I am here for you, I hear what you're saying, and then they become empowered, too, as they grow up, to not become a marshmallow, but to say, you know what? I can communicate what I feel and what I need in a healthy way, and I can also empathize with others.

Scott Benner: Listen, I'm no physical force, but I think if you listen to this podcast, you can hear that I'm an incredibly empathetic person. I put myself in other people's shoes constantly. I spent a lot of my life trying to help other people to feel better. But if we were out in public and shit got sideways, I'd stand right up with everybody else. And I don't think those two things, like, I just don't think they're mutually exclusive, you know? But I do think that you could hear this as a young parent and think, I'm not going to turn my kid into a pushover by doing this. And I really don't think that's what happens. I think actually the exact opposite ends up happening. So they get better in conflict resolution. Like, you're going to raise a kid who can be in a group of five people who are having a problem and step out of it a little bit, and they can see what's happening. You know, like, I know why this person's upset. I know why this person's upset. You're going to create a person who's a mediator as well as, you know, a leader. Honestly, I think. But I don't know, Erika. That's just me and my silly podcast. No, I think...

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I mean, having the ability to identify and verbalize how you're feeling and understand how other people are feeling, it's a hard skill. And if we all could do that perfectly, there would be no issue anytime, ever.

Scott Benner: Yeah, listen, if you want to have a really popular podcast, I'd learn that one if I was you. It's very helpful. It's just interesting to talk about how a parenting decision for a three-year-old could impact a 50-year-old person's life, because I don't think we stop to think about that stuff. You know, or frequently enough, maybe don't think about it. You say, oh, I'll give them good tools and they'll turn into good people. But here's a concrete example of how that can happen. You know, I don't know. Like, my parents didn't teach it to me. I learned it along the way. If Arden doesn't get diabetes, I don't get involved in this space. I don't learn to have... I had more of a caregiver's mentality before Arden's diabetes. Like, if you were related to me, I would take good care of you. But I didn't particularly give a crap about other people. And now, like, this whole thing is... Like I used to tell people like I was not a chicken soup for the soul person before I started this whole thing. And now, like, you know, I had to teach myself how not to feel everyone's pain. I'm so connected to so many people, you know, and that even was anyway. Well, I'm sorry, I'm getting Erica off track. She's looking at me like I made this great list. Now you're chatting.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: You've got a good master's level, you know.

Scott Benner: psychology but everybody can get that just by watching the people around them and not it has to be more important for you to understand what's really happening than to lay your feelings over top of what is happening and color that situation with how you see it it's not it's not really important how you see it it's important what's actually happening I don't know if that makes sense or not.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, but it does become important, this goes back to your own boundaries, when your boundaries are crossed, right? Yeah. Emotionally, physically, and then to be able to know how to speak and articulate that, verbalize that, yeah.

Scott Benner: I'm not letting anybody walk all over me, but I'm willing to understand. Trust me, if what you think is harmful to me, Well, you found my line then. Now I don't care how you feel anymore. Now I'm on Scott's side. So your last bit here, validating emotions for this piece.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, I think we'll get into this point a little bit later in this episode and in the following episode. But I think as we're thinking about setting appropriate healthy boundaries and expectations for our children and offering praise in the midst of all of that, right? So as they're learning how to set physical and emotional boundaries, they're learning how to meet certain expectations. We want to offer the praise in the moment of like, wow, you're doing a really good job. in this growth area, but that you're not just like we as parents, we've already kind of mentioned this, we're not always going to do it perfectly. And then inserting the lesson of self-compassion, right? To say, gosh, you know, we're not always going to do everything right. We are going to step on, we are going to push our friends physically or emotionally sometimes. We're going to learn how to correct that. And then we're going to practice that self-compassion piece and not just be like, ah, I'm a terrible parent, I'm a terrible kid, I can never get it right, meeting these boundaries and expectations. And so I just wanted to slide that in there too, like it's okay to model that for your child as a parent, but also teach that to your child.

Scott Benner: Short memory, right? Yeah. There's an episode going up with you and I next week. which means nothing. I shouldn't have said it like that here, because people would be like, next week. It was six months ago if you're hearing this. But it's about, like, I drug you on here one day and I was like, I want to talk about how people compare things. And we got into this long conversation that by the time we were done, kind of boiled down to, you know, a Hall of Fame hitter bats about 300, and that I see this piece like that. What you're calling self-compassion, I say, I mean, 3 in 10 is not bad. You know what I mean? You're going to fail more than you succeed, that kind of idea, and not to beat yourself up over those things. And what they tell a hitter in baseball is you have to have a short memory. which just means like you fail, you move on, you don't look back. I mean, this seems like obvious stuff to say out loud until you try to put it into practice in your life. And then it's maybe not as easy. Anyway, but the ones that come out on top are the ones that master that idea. Truly, you know. Okay, so moving on. Addressing the negative impacts of demanding perfectionism and having unrealistic standards. Wow. Thank God you're here. Yes. Seriously.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So this is a biggie. This is a biggie. Yeah.

Scott Benner: Go ahead, please.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I'm glad to be here. This is really challenging. So as we think about perfection, I wanted to kind of just highlight that there's different types of perfectionism. There's the self-oriented perfectionism when we're demanding perfection from ourselves. This is kind of self-explanatory. There's other oriented perfectionism when we're demanding perfection from others. And then there's the socially prescribed perfectionism when we think everyone around us is demanding perfection from us, which then maybe kind of goes into the self-oriented perfectionism.

Scott Benner: Give them to me again. Give me the three again, just real quick.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Okay, so self-oriented perfectionism, other-oriented, and then socially prescribed.

Scott Benner: Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to make a note for myself. The socially prescribed one sounds dangerous to my mental health, but let's, let's hear what you're going to say.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, absolutely. And okay. So thinking about these, the negative impacts and of how we might be demanding perfectionism as a parent to our child, that's how we're going to look at this. So if we are demanding or expecting a perfection from our children, they are gonna constantly feel like there's unrealistic standards and they're not gonna meet them over and over and over again. And then they're gonna eventually, I mean, this is not every child, but this is pretty common, that they then will believe that they're never good enough. And we've talked about that statement, right? Like that mindset of, I'm never gonna be a good enough fill in the blank. And so they're thinking, okay, mom and dad expect me to have straight A's, or such and such number A1C, or to be, you know, whatever it is. And without maybe having, usually this happens without really a whole lot of awareness, but as a parent you're expecting perfection, they're gonna struggle to meet those unrealistic standards. And because of that struggle of never meeting this, because there is no such thing as meeting those perfectionistic standards, they are gonna develop that concept, gosh, no matter what I do, I'm never gonna be good enough. I'm never gonna meet my parents' expectations. And obviously that there's a snowball effect in that mindset that we've talked about before.

Scott Benner: Do you think that parents actually have, overwhelmingly have that expectation of perfection? Or do you think it's the fear as a parent that you don't want potential to be wasted and that effort finds potential? But then it gets misinterpreted by the kid or by the way you deliver it. Do you think that's what really happened? How many people do you think are running around going, I want my kid to be perfect? You know what I mean?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yeah, we don't. We don't. We say we want our child, we want to do the best. Just go out and do your best or do better. So I think go out and do your best isn't necessarily negative, but when we say to our child, okay, just go out and do your best on that test or do your best in that game, and then they come back and they can pick up very small cues on our face of like, Oh, because we might have an expectation that the best is 100% or the best is winning the game or getting strikes, whatever. So they are going to pick up even if we're like, no, we just want our child to do the best. We don't have high standards, but then we're like, oh, did you try your best? I think you, did you study hard enough? Yeah. Were you, were you focused during the game? Now, again, I know there are times when maybe this, these reflections are appropriate, right? So this is, but I'm, I'm generally globally stereotyping if we're consistently saying, go do your best or do better, you can do better.

Scott Benner: And then questioning if they did that. Right. Yes.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yeah. Then they're learning, oh, I actually studied for hours for weeks and, or I've been practicing every day. I did my, that was my best.

Scott Benner: And if it wasn't, how the hell do I find what my best is? Because this feels like I've given everything I have. Right. And by the way, I guess even if they haven't given everything they have, if they still feel that way, then you're telling them there's more, but they don't know the pathway to it.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. Yes.

Scott Benner: Yes. That was big.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: That was big. I got it.

Scott Benner: Yeah, wow. And how do you think about that in the moment when really what you're trying to say to the kid is, like, just could you watch the ball, please? Like, just stop looking away in the middle of the abat, if you could. Yeah, I know. Isn't that crazy?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: And this is, and I know we'll get into this too, because I'm thinking about like the counterpoint is, but if we're always saying you did your great job, good job, good job, good job, good job, good job all the time, then, you know, finding that balance is difficult, right? Like you want, you want your child to do their best and apply themselves. However, we also need to be in check with what does that actually look like and feel like?

Scott Benner: Yeah, and what does the best mean? The best means for you. Do your best, not the best. Do you know what I mean? I'll keep going back to baseball because I just watched my son go through it forever and ever. You can be the best baseball player on your high school team and be nowhere near the best baseball player in the world, but that kid's now achieved their potential. They're a really good high school baseball player. you can't keep telling them, well, there's people doing better than you. There's always someone doing better than you. And if we're chasing that forever and ever, you know, to take maybe what might seem like a weird left turn for a second, there's this Amazon Prime documentary up right now for this guy named Jason Kelsey, who is probably a person you don't know. And I only know probably because he snaps the ball for the Philadelphia Eagles, and I grew up in Pennsylvania and Philadelphia, okay? Okay. He's a really interesting older guy who's been in the league for a long time. And they started out by documenting what they thought was going to be his last year of his career. Turns out he's going to come back and play for another year. But inside this documentary, he's in a poker game with a bunch of retired football players, professional football players. So a bunch of people who are literally the best at what they did, right? Because even if you're the third tight end on a bad professional football team, you're one of like the best 85 tight ends on the planet. That makes you the best as far as my considerations goes. To watch these guys all sit around and stare into space and not be able to figure out what the rest of their life means and what it's like, there's no more excellence to chase. Like they didn't just get tired of it, they made it. And now they're still alive, and they don't know what to do. And I think that's not a good thing to instill in your kids. Because those 85 guys, they've reached the mountaintop, and they're probably wealthy. They also probably get headaches a lot, and maybe will die earlier. But nevertheless, they've made it as far as they're going to make it in this situation, right? But for every one of those guys, there has to be tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of other boys who thought they were going to be the best tight end on the blah, blah, blah, who are still right now living their life feeling like failures because of something you told them when they were seven. And that's where my bigger concern comes from. But that's my example for why you might not want to tell your kids. that they're trying to achieve perfection. So anyway, I don't, does that make sense to you?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. I think the, and I mean, we obviously, we see that example a lot in sports, you know, children wanting to be pro athletes or, you know, superstars. And I think there's that, again, that fine line, striking that balance between like wanting to do your best, but also accepting some reality.

Scott Benner: Of who you are. Yeah. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Of your identity and your strengths.

Scott Benner: Right. I did the best I could do. That's pretty amazing. Now I got to go find a new thing to like to try to achieve. And that, listen, there's a 10 part podcast series in the six months that I watched my son let go of playing baseball and move on to something else. You have no idea how scared I was during that time. that he wouldn't be able to do that, you know? And listen, my kid played baseball in college, which somehow makes him one of the best 9,000 baseball players in the country, and he was nowhere near being one of the guys you see on television. So, like, nowhere near. Like, they describe, and I think this is for everything, but they describe playing baseball as trying to climb a pyramid. Right, like when you start and everyone's at the base, so many people fit around the pyramid. But every time you take a step up and you're trying to get to the point, fewer and fewer people fit on the pyramid. Yeah, my kid was pretty far up that pyramid. But the amount of people between him and the tip was astronomical in his reality.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Mm hmm.

Scott Benner: it's not a thing you want to hang somebody with for the rest of their life. Like I consciously thought about it for years. Like when this is over, how do we make sure he doesn't end up a guy sitting at a card table, staring at a wall, wondering what the hell he's supposed to do with his life? Cause this is all he thinks life is, you know? Anyway, I'm sorry. That was a rabbit hole. I apologize.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: No, I think it was a good, some good illustrations of how, you know, the negative impacts, right, of of this expectation of perfection, even when we're we're thinking we're not doing that, that we're just we're just encouraging our children to do their best.

Scott Benner: Well, in a reality where there's 300 guys who are pro baseball players and a handful of people who are billionaires and like, you know, a handful of people who are beautiful. I know we think everybody's beautiful because of Instagram. Most of us look like me. when the idea is that no one's going to make it to the tip of the pyramid anyway. I'm not saying don't try. I'm saying when you get halfway up the pyramid, make a cup of tea, sit back, and appreciate what you did for a little while, you know? And that's all I got. I'm sorry. Where are we at here?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I lost the list. We're trying to set the bar just right. Oh, okay.

Scott Benner: Yeah, go ahead.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So again, I know we want our children to excel in where they apply themselves. And so when we're thinking about setting the bar, we don't want to set it too high or too low. Again, I know this feels like it can be challenging at times, but when we are setting the bar too high, then the children And we see this a lot. There's a lot of anxiety in our teens currently, partially due to post-pandemic issues, ripple effects, but this pressure to perform and produce and achieve and excel. And so they're living with this constant stress and pressure. So that's if we're setting the bar too high, even without knowing for our children. And then when we set the bar too low, they also can develop this criticism or self-criticism or stress because we might be saying, we set the bar low, and then we're kind of saying to our children, but you can do, you can do better than that, right? So like we're trying to maybe overcompensate and not developing any kind of anxiety in our children by setting the bar low, but then we're constantly saying, like, come on, you could have done better. And so then they're feeling like they're letting you down, they have this personal sense of failure, and that contributes to more thoughts of self-esteem and anxiety. It's hard. It's really hard to find that right balance.

Scott Benner: Also, as a parent, you might be very aware of your own wasted potential. And now you're older and you're really like, oh, God, I could have done this. I could have done that. Like these little steps would have made a big difference to me. You're trying to get that over them. You know, I think that one of the hardest things I've encountered being somebody's parent is the fear of the unknown, is doing the right thing without an assurance that the right thing is going to happen afterwards. Does that make sense? Like, I'm going to do the right thing, and I'm going to hope that this goes well. Because if you can't let go of that, then you get this feeling in your head that you can direct reality. and control. Yeah, I'll control how this ends up. And it feels like, well, I'll control how this ends up so it gets to the right place. But what if you get to the right place, but you've done so much damage along the way that they can't even enjoy being in the correct in the place you wanted them to be? It's almost better. I'm going to sound like a hippie. It's almost better. Also, Does anyone use that word anymore besides me and a couple other people? But I think it's almost better to just let your kid be a happy, good representation of who they are and hope that they drift through the ether in the right direction. And I think they will, right? Like a well-stocked boat should make it to shore. And will a couple of them crash in the waves? They will, but if you're behind them the whole time going, turn here, turn here, do this, you're just going to turn them into a neurotic mess to begin with. So what does winning look like? I think winning at the end looks like healthy and happy.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Well, and then they maybe they made it to the coordinates, but they also found their way on their own, which which, by the way, that allows you to, like, do another thing.

Scott Benner: You know, Arden's trying to do something right now at college. And and I supported it a little. But then there were places in it where I thought, I'm going to let her take care of this because there's growth potential in these things. You know, setting this up, understanding how it works, that will help her to utilize the tool better moving forward. But she needs a physical item to get there. I'll send the physical item. So I'm like, here, here's a tool. Now you learn how to use it. But she asked me, how do I do this? And I sent her a link. I was like, this explains it. but you need to go figure it out yourself." And she said, thank you, and she moved on. Now, if this all doesn't work out, I could step back and say, oh, I could have held her hand through it, but then we don't know where else she ends up. Do you know what I mean? Like, what does she get from this or learn about herself? Maybe she'll pivot and end up doing something different with what she learned. It's not the initial goal, but maybe it's a new, better goal. There you go.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: That's it. Yes, yes.

Scott Benner: I smell like petroleum oil now. There's a reference no one gets.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I know petroleum oil.

Scott Benner: You're from California. It's different.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. It was alive and well in Laguna beach where I grew up. Yes. Um, I think the setting the bar I know is so challenging and it's hard. I mean, I, obviously I immediately think of all of the examples with our, you know, diabetes management piece. And one thing I know that we want to achieve the perfection, whatever that is, but I think there's been such great dialogue and understanding to eliminate that perfect number, perfect time and range. What a great way you can model for your child. If you are the one caregiving for your child in their management, their diabetes management, Like if you're constantly, we might think that they're not watching us, but if we're looking at their numbers or their graphs and we're thinking, gosh, I'm totally messed up there. We're never going to get this right because I know there's so much pressure on wanting to keep your child healthy and alive. but to model for your child so that when they are growing up and starting to take control of their own management, say, gosh, whoops, we goofed here, but we know we'll figure it out next time or we know how to correct here. Because I know that there's so much fear in not having tight management, but also to give yourself the release of not having that perfect time and range, but also for your child to see you do that, then they get to learn, you know, I'm going to do my best here and there, but there are going to be times when I'm not going to figure it out. And I'm going to be on the roller coaster. And so then they get all like, Oh yeah, I saw dad do that one time. Like he messed up and he didn't like,

Scott Benner: have a stroke. Yeah. Yeah.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: I mean, I get I get why we do that. But it's such a great way to have your children learn how to imitate that self-compassion again.

Scott Benner: I don't imagine this is like coming to a surprise as a surprise to anyone. But this whole series here, when I thought about it, I just thought we would talk about parenting and then people could listen to it, then lay it over top of diabetes because it's the same thing. You know, like it really is. There are very few things in the world that aren't Core ideas and you know, I just thought this was a nice way to kind of bundle two things together Even though we don't feel like we're talking about diabetes. I think that's all we're talking about. Yes while we're talking about this, so Anyway, okay.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: So where are we at here on your we are we can move on to finding the right balance between discipline and understanding, okay, so

Scott Benner: All right. So we learned we don't hit people. I'm just kidding. It's not the seventies. You can't just hit me with a stick. If you want me to do something that doesn't, that doesn't work anymore. By the way, that probably doesn't work anymore at all. Kids are probably like, I have phone numbers. I can get out of here. I have a job. My tick tock makes 10,000 a month. I don't have to live here.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Oh gosh. Okay. So this kind of goes back to, you know, we talked about the different parenting styles in our first episode and wanting to try and strike again, striking the balance between having discipline, having consequences around the boundaries or expectations that you're setting or rules that you're setting for your children, while also pairing that with understanding validation fund. So I know that we talked about, if you're in the parenting style, like I'm the boss, they're going to do what I say, no matter what, I don't care how they think or feel about it. They're going to follow these rules and they're going to live within these boundaries and expectations I have for them. Then the counterpoint would be, well, aren't they just going to rebel because they don't want to be so confined? Maybe. But then the other opposite end of the spectrum is, we'll just let them figure it out. We're just going to understand their kids. They make mistakes and we're going to understand and validate over and over and over again. But then the counterpoint to that is, then kids really, there's a lot of different mental health issues that come along with that parenting style as well. And freedom to make choices, which is healthy, but when they don't understand there's any consequences to some of their choices or decisions, that also leads to problematic behavior. And so wanting to strike, sorry, go ahead.

Scott Benner: I'm just going to share something I recorded last week. I'm going to keep the details light. I was talking to an adult in their late twenties. I'm not trying to be funny, who has a specific like kink in their life, like a sexual quirk, right? That as I'm talking to them clearly comes from how they were raised. And 45 minutes into the conversation, I bring that up. And the person does not see the connection between the two at all. It's so obvious, but not to them. And it felt like that was important to put into here for some reason. Like, not that your kid's going to end up in an S&M dungeon, that's not what I was trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that you could lead somebody in a direction and they won't know what happened to them. And so they have no ability to course-correct, because this feels right to them. Even though it started with a bad thing, that person was empowered by this thing. And I mean, I'm only one person, but from my perspective, Had they not been abused as a child, I don't think they'd be in this situation right now. And I'm not saying the situation's bad or good. Like, if you're out there and you like to have your ass slapped, I'm not saying, I'm judging you. I'm saying that, like, sorry, this is what the conversation, you should go find, it's a great episode. It's one of the best episodes I've ever recorded, actually. But the point is, is that the cause and effect, I think, is so far apart in time that the mind can't even connect the two things. Plus, you have to defend yourself Against the abuse by empowering yourself. Does that make sense? It's like you take the bad thing you turn it into your power, which is understandable what would have been better is if the person didn't hit her to begin with and and so Anyway, I think that's what we're talking about here But there's a real-world example of what it could look like 25 years later is is what I'm saying. I

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, yes. I mean, again, going back to the self-awareness piece, you brought some self-awareness to her in that reflection in the recording. And part of that, hopefully your word encouraging some self-awareness too in some of our parenting styles and routines. We don't, we just do. And also because we're tired, we're stressed. We have our own baggage that we're carrying. And sometimes we just parent out of a natural space and energy. And so I think it's, we're hoping that by just pausing and reflecting and bringing some self-awareness, like, oh, maybe I do, I do generally parent this way or the other, right?

Scott Benner: Well, that's a very kind statement from you. It's not anything more than what I would expect and I agree with you. But I do want to say this, and I'm somebody's parent two times over. It's a big responsibility you took on. And in the end, I don't know where Erica's going to stand on my statement, I don't want to hear about your problems. Like, go do the right thing. Like, you said you were going to do this. They're here. go do it now. Like, maybe you don't get to be as rested, or as happy, or whatever the hell else. But you're here now, you did this thing, these kids are here, they deserve a shot. Maybe you gotta swallow hard and, you know, take one for the team sometimes. It's nice to think that we can all be happy, but, I mean, Wouldn't it be cool if we could just set the next group up to be happy and feel fulfilled by the fact that we sent another generation of people on a better path than the one we were on, rather than like, you know, I would've liked to have paid attention, but I needed to get some sleep so I could get some overtime, because I deserve to go on vacation. I haven't been on a goddamn vacation in 10 years. I'm busy parenting two children. It's hard, you know what I mean? So I want to be happy too, but at whose expense at some point? Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, I think being able to what you're wanting them to be healthy, happy and healthy, and you're wanting to be happy and healthy as a parent. And I think the we're not going to be able to be this model perfect parent all the time. And sometimes you are going to need to take a break or sleep or yell a million percent.

Scott Benner: I'm just saying if someone gets screwed, it's you, not them. Like that's that's just got to be like, I mean, if you're making a decision, them, and it's you over them, I gotta tell you, I don't understand your decision. So, you know, it's done now. You had a baby. Here it is. It didn't turn out the way you expected? Too bad. You gotta do the right thing. Keep doing the right thing. Because one day, it all just comes back to you. It really will. Maybe you're not going to have the exact life you wanted when you were 25, but you'll wake up in 10 years and be like, oh my god, I've got this reasonable child who's happy and on a good path. And then you get to be happy too. You have no idea how easy and joyful and There are just more words that need to be attributed to this, but my life with my son is. Like, just how our back and forth is, and it's, maybe it won't pay you today, it's definitely gonna pay you tomorrow, I guess maybe is my bigger point. You might have to sacrifice, maybe I should have just said, you may have to sacrifice a little now for later, but what you get later is more than payback. You know, that's how I see it anyway.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes, yes. Yes, sacrificing now. I think as parents, probably most parents listening to this podcast are feeling that way, that they are sacrificing, that they are working really hard, that they're doing their best. And I think the way to find that balance between the understanding, maybe offering too much leniency or freedom in your child's behavior or choices versus I'm the parent, I'm going to do this." And then trying to find, not being a perfectionist parent, there's so many different things to filter through, is just keep communicating, whether your child is one, two, 10, 20, keeping that line of communication open in terms of, wow, I understand you really don't like this rule. this is still a rule, and I need you to follow it, but tell me how you feel about it. Or, wow, I see that you're working really hard in this area, and I'm really proud of you. And keep it up. We're all practicing, right? We're all practicing to do our best, and to communicate with our children in that space, as we're learning how to parent, just as much as they're learning how to be children. It's hard.

Scott Benner: No, I mean it's incredibly difficult.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: But I hear your point too, like we do need to like, we're all grinding it out, you know, trying to figure it out.

Scott Benner: It's hard for a reason, and that doesn't mean you get to give up in the middle. I don't know, because when you give up, I mean, you're giving them away. You really are. You might not see it that way, but you're gonna at least put it on them to try to figure it out on their own, and then it's a coin flip whether they get it straight as an adult or not. You have a real opportunity to push people off into their life in a valuable direction. Forget the right direction, a valuable direction that might lead them to the things you're hoping for. This is your shot right here. I mean, it's just how it seems to me. I don't know. It's a difficult thing to do and for good reasons, but I mean, don't bemoan the fact that it's hard. You had to expect this. Like, no. And if you didn't, I'm sorry, but here you are. You know, you got to work hard at this. It's just, I don't know. I'm torn sometimes between saying to people, like, here, these are good things to do. I mean, you've gone over so many valuable things here. But in the end, you can't just say, oh, it didn't go my way. Like, you know, there are certain things you could have done to maybe help that. And along the way, I've seen over the years, a lot of people make excuses for why they couldn't do hard things. Now their kids are a train wreck and they're gone I did my best and I and sometimes I look and I go I don't know if you did or not like I was watching Sometimes it didn't look like didn't look like you were trying even let alone your like your real effort here And not to say that you could also be listening going, look, I'm trying as hard as I can, and it's not going right. But to me, that's a good indicator. If you're putting your whole ass into this, like you're really trying, and every day you wake up and it's getting further and further away from a valuable ending, it's a good time to step back and say to yourself, maybe I don't know what I'm doing, right? Because I'm trying as hard as I can. But if you're trying to saw a hole through a wall with a screwdriver, it's going to take forever. And if your ideas aren't getting you to where you want to go, what a perfect time to reach out to someone else and help get an assessment of what your decisions are and maybe how you could make ones that would end up in a different situation. Does that make sense?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. If a parent is articulating and feeling frustrated, hands in the air, I'm doing the best I can, but gosh, my relationship with my child is not the way I want it to be, or I'm just exhausted, burnt out. I can't keep going. I'm in this giving up space. which we might all feel as parents throughout the day or season. I think that's a great thought to then, that's where the self-awareness piece comes in, of like, gosh, you know what, maybe I'm not perfect, but I also don't want to give up, and I'm going to be kind to myself, and I need to ask for help.

Scott Benner: I need help. Work smarter, not harder sometimes. It's possible you're just not good at this, or whatever we're talking about, like diabetes, or Parenting or anything like if you're putting that much honest effort into something and getting no results You're probably doing the wrong thing and don't even know it. So how do I go find somebody? You know not to bring this person up again but the person I was talking to I was telling that story about earlier is a parent and Making like incredible strides for themselves as a parent I said, where did you learn that given that you grew up in such a terrible situation? boy, she found classes given at local hospitals, by therapists doing pro bono work. She wanted to do a better job for her kid. And even though she didn't know what the hell that looked like, she went and found other people to teach her what that looked like. And I was just very impressed, like really, really impressed. She realized, I don't have the tools. I need somebody to explain to me what to do. And then she had the lack of ego to go do it. The whole thing was very impressive. So anyway, I think we could all, I could do that. There's things I don't know that I have to go to other people and find out about all the time. And I'm sure that happens to you and everyone else. Yeah, of course. But at some point, You can't just keep saying, well, I'm working really hard and that kid's a little asshole. It's obviously their fault. Maybe not. That's all I'm saying. And some, you know, I mean, kids can be, it's hard. Well, it is.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes. And it's so hard. I mean, just that step that you just shared about what this person did. That takes so much effort and energy and courage too, to say, I need help. And then I'm going to spend the time and effort, particularly if I need, you know, maybe you don't have the resources to throw a ton of money and time at it, but she's going to find, you know, resources that she can afford or that is huge and it takes so much effort.

Scott Benner: I kept wondering, where did she get the emotional intelligence to figure this out? And it was all driven by her desire to do better for her kid. If you listen to her episode, it's a slow process. She's not out there killing it. She's incrementally getting into a better and better situation very slowly. The patience of a saint. Her life is not easy. And she doesn't act like she's being burdened she doesn't like complain about it she just gets up right she just hits the rock with the hammer and she makes a little move forward and then she wakes up six months later and things are a little brighter and then she has a terrible backslide puts her head down makes a good decision does it again and she just keeps climbing i was very very impressed with her and um i don't know like it just it's not all about like I don't want to say it's the journey, not the destination, because that sounds like something I would have read in a book in 1978 or something like that. But yeah, you know what I mean? It's the journey, not the destination. It's the way you go about it, not what you go about. And I think that's what you should be trying to teach your kids. It's beyond just do the right thing. I don't know. It's a way of thinking about being alive. And this this lady's got it, man. Somebody put her in a hole and threw cinder blocks over top of her. And she climbed out of that hole and then they pushed her back in and she climbed out of it again. And every time she climbs out of it, she's climbing out to get to that kid. And it's very, very impressive. So I'm sorry I've gotten you off track for your last.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Well, yes, I can't wait to listen to that episode.

Scott Benner: Yeah, it'll be called. I don't know. It's an after dark for sure. Okay. It's, it's such an interesting, I'm sorry, I can't just tell you what it's gonna be called yet. Cause I haven't produced the rest of it out yet, but it's an after dark because her story is so bizarrely like two pieces. Like the, the first half of it is about getting away from abusive family and then an abusive personal relationship. And then we pivot like 45 minutes in and talk about her They're not just sexual like things. It's just that's a lifestyle she lives around this kind of like BDSM lifestyle that she lives in. Right. And I know you think like, well, cause I thought like, how are we going to put these two thoughts together in one thing? But she originally was going to come on just to talk about her lifestyle. But when she got there, just like it seems like she does with the rest of her life, she said, I know I'm coming on for this. But man, I think I'd rather talk about how I got away from some of this abuse in my life." I said, yeah, sure. So we just switched gears and we did the abuse conversation, but then I got to the end and I thought, oh, the lifestyle thing fits the first part of the story, so I introduced it. She's the one I'm talking about who just, she did not see the connection between the two things, but then she very freely and openly pivoted and talked about the lifestyle thing. Just an incredibly impressive person. So, I hope people find it. I don't know what the hell I'm gonna call it, but it's an after dark that follows that. You'll figure it out. I mean, I'm sorry. I'd do a better job naming the episodes if I knew how, but this is what you get from me. So, anyway, but I'm sorry, we were like- Yes, I think we're- We're good?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: We are good. I think we were gonna get into, you know, having that, the importance and significance of having consistent discipline. We were talking about having that balance between discipline, understanding, validation. And I think we'll get into the importance of having consistent consequences and what happens, you know, if we don't do that in our next episode.

Scott Benner: I think in, When we talk about recognizing patterns and breaking cycles, I want to try to remember to bring this up, so I'm going to say it here so it kind of sticks in my head as my memory, but oh my God, I just completely lost my thought. Isn't that amazing?

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Yes.

Scott Benner: I talk too much, Erica. There's so many words bouncing around in my head. It's there. Hold on a second. Oh my God, I'm so embarrassed. It's been in my head for 20 minutes.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Recognizing patterns and breaking cycles.

Scott Benner: Oh, hell. Well, call this a teaser. I'll remember for the next one. I for 20 minutes have been trying to, like, remember to say something. And then I didn't make a note because my noteboard is full because my printing is terrible. I ran out of white space because I write like a child. But anyway, it'll come back. It'll come back to me. I really appreciate you doing this with me.

Erika Forsyth, LMFT: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

Scott Benner: If you enjoyed this, please share it with someone else who you think might also enjoy it, and hang on for a second because I'll give you a list of the episodes you may have missed if this is your first time. For now though, let's thank Erika, and remind you to go to erikaforsythe.com, and of course USMed for sponsoring this episode of the Juicebox Podcast. US Med is where my daughter gets her diabetes supplies from, and you could too. usmed.com slash juicebox or call 888-721-1514. Get your free benefits check and get started today. This series began at episode 1049. It's an episode called Parenting, Brainstorming the Series. It's just Erica and I talking through what we want the episodes to be about. So you can kind of hear us plan out the series. But if you want to just jump in, the real episode one is at episode 1054. It's called Parenting, Understanding Parenting Styles. The next one is 1059, Parenting, Building Positive Communication. Then there was episode 1064, Parenting, Self-Care, and Personal Growth for Parents. And then, of course, today, Creating Boundaries and Expectations. And actually, let me tell you a little more about what's coming. The next episode will be called Avoiding Unintended Consequences of Inconsistent Discipline and Over-Involved Parenting. Then after that, Co-Parenting and Unified Fronts. The series won't end there, but I don't have the titles for you at the moment. So that's what's coming up. I hope you're enjoying it. Please share it with somebody. If you are absolutely tell a friend about the juice box podcast. And if you're in an Apple ecosystem, if you're in an iPhone and using Apple podcasts again, please go to the show, go to settings. go to automatic downloads and choose download all available podcasts. It's the last setting at the very bottom. When you check it out, the new operating system is keeping it so that some of you are not getting the episodes of the podcast that you would normally get. Thank you so much for listening. I'll be back soon with another episode of the juice box podcast.