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Scott Benner 0:00
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When I first suggested that Paul, come on the show, I didn't know anything about his history. So I started at the beginning, asking him how did you get involved in this kind of work? And the answer took us on our ride that I just did not expect. I really found it fascinating to pick through someone's life and see where they started and what they thought they were going to do and find out about some of their first jobs that have, you know, seemingly nothing to do with what they end up doing. So sit back and relax. And we're gonna find out how a young boy from New York ends up being the CEO of the company that brings the world's first liquid stable glucagon to market. A glucagon that is pre mixed, pre measured and ready to go. It's kind of fascinating. One last thing, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, and to always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. Yeah, there was just like, there is like air behind you. And it's like, oh, god sounds like you were on the highway.

Paul Edick 2:51
Well, so where our building is located. We're surrounded by train tracks. Well, we're on the 16th floor. But you might hear some train noise in the background. Don't worry, a

Scott Benner 3:07
fighter jet will fly past Dexcom once in a while when I'm speaking with them. adds a little flavor.

Paul Edick 3:14
Well, we chose to put our office close to the train station. So everybody could have an easy commute. So it's a nice idea comes with its

Scott Benner 3:23
Can you take credit for that? Or Where was it? Not your idea? And you just take credit for it? Oh, no.

Paul Edick 3:29
I've done it in two companies now is very purposeful. Okay. very purposeful. Yeah, we promise everybody will be within four blocks of a train and train station or l stop.

Scott Benner 3:38
That's really excellent. That is and you guys are located in Chicago.

Paul Edick 3:42
Downtown. We were one block south of the river on the sale. Nice

Scott Benner 3:47
is that and by the way, we are recording already.

Paul Edick 3:56
I'm Paul edic. I'm the CEO of zeros pharmaceuticals.

Scott Benner 4:01
Obviously, we're just talking as we picked up the column, Paul didn't know we were recording but now that he knows we can just kind of keep going. It's funny now that you said that I want to go in a direction. And I guess I just Well, are you. Not a young man? Paul? Not right out of college, I'm guessing.

Paul Edick 4:18
No, I've been in the pharmaceutical business. This is my 41st year, but I just turned 64 in July. Okay. All right. I've been doing this a long time.

Scott Benner 4:28
So things that other people may not think about, like I'm gonna put a building up and we're gonna get a company rolling and it should be near transportations, so that hardworking people don't then have to schlep home and get you know, like and cause problems for them. That's the stuff you learn over time, I imagine.

Paul Edick 4:44
Yeah. You so if you a lot of companies they locate in office parks in the suburbs, and people are landlocked and there's no real energy. It's just in the building. We you know, I look in the suburbs, and there's all the normal land, you know, buildings. But when you come into the city you can locate in buildings where it's vibrant, there's a lot going on, there are people and movement and energy. And the commute is actually shorter by train for most people than driving two buildings in an office park in the suburb. So it, it helps with the energy of the company. But it also makes it easier for people and therefore you attract people better.

Scott Benner 5:31
I'm incredibly interested about how it gets set up. But I guess I have to, I have to go backwards before I can jump into forwards. So let's start slow. Where did you grow up?

Paul Edick 5:41
I grew up, excuse me in a small town in, in a dairy dairy country in upstate New York. So for for people who are in New York City, upstate New York is Poughkeepsie. I grew up about two hours north of Syracuse, just just a little bit before the St. Lawrence Seaway. very rural, very small. What did your parents do? When I was a little kid, my dad was worked in a Chicago pneumatic, which was a tooling company. My mom worked in a shoe factory.

Scott Benner 6:17
I asked because, you know, growing up in a small town that's, you know, pretty removed from what I would think of is big business. And coming from, you know, your parents doing what they did. And I think of myself, and I always used to say to people, like, it's hard to imagine something other than what you know, you know, what I mean? Like, I know, you know, like, I know, people who want to be professional athletes, but when you look at them, they grew up around a professional athlete. So it seemed like a reasonable thing when I was young, I wanted to write, but that didn't seem like a viable way to make a living because the people I lived around were, you know, kind of hard working blue collar people. And I don't think that writing something seemed like a, you know, a reasonable way to make a living. So I, so I'm fascinated about how you made it from there. To here. I wonder, did it happen in high school or not till college? Where did you start thinking about business? Are we just trying to get out of a small town or how are you feeling?

Paul Edick 7:10
Yeah, great question. I started as a little little kid in Central New York. And then we moved to this town called la ville, in upstate New York, after my dad, finally, he got a degree out of Syracuse University became a teacher. My mom was able to get out of the shoe factory, became a secretary. All I, I you know, in terms of aspirations, from a career perspective, I don't really recall having any I think my aspiration was to do better than my parents. I grew up in a second generation, Italian immigrant family. You know, my mom couldn't speak English. When she started grammar school, I was an athlete. And I had opportunities to go to college for free and a lot of places around the country because of athletics. And I was a pretty good student. But I ended up going to a small, private college called Hamilton College, Central New York. And coming out of Hamilton, it was time to get a job. And I, I interview on campus got a job with Procter and Gamble, my entry into the pharmaceutical businesses, accidental, to say the least

Scott Benner 8:23
yet see, it's interesting, because you're describing You know, I'm, I'm 48. So I'm not of your generation, but I'm probably not too far along, but my parents definitely had that vibe about them the idea that you were just trying to do a little better tomorrow than you did today. And and kind of get get through it. There was no grandiose ideas like this is the thing I'm going to be one day you're just like, I need to get up in the morning, go to school, learn something, go to college, learn something, get a job in that. It's funny how I don't think people now think like that as much like I think they have plans for themselves and ideas.

Paul Edick 8:58
Oh, no question. No question. Every every, every kid I talked to wherever young person I talked to, you know, how do I get to Xyz? And, you know, the first thing I say to say to people is keep your head down, do your job and the rest will take care of itself.

Scott Benner 9:15
Yeah, I'm always amused by my wife will tell this great story about she hired this person. And after 30 days, they came to her very earnestly and asked when they'd be getting a raise. And you don't even understand what the job is yet. You've only been here for 30 days. She said, I've never been late. and was like, well keep keep you keep that up. Okay, thanks. I get out of here. And she's like, I she came home and she's like, 26 year old person doesn't really even understand what our job is yet. Once a race once and I was like, Yeah, good luck. No, that is that's, that's really excellent. So yeah, so your parents weren't as much. They were immigrants more than that, like so I say. It's funny. I applied. by today's standards too, and I just assumed like, that's the job they had. But they were working their way up as well.

Paul Edick 10:05
Yeah, my grandparents came over, you know, on the proverbial boat from Italy, right, my mom was born in the States. But in those days, they lived in an Italian community in a small town. And they spoke Italian, interestingly enough. And we always tell these stories, but my parents, my grandparents refused to speak Italian around us kids, because they lived in a world where they were discriminated against. They didn't want us to speak that language or even have an accent. You know, fast forward to when we're teenagers and adults. And we're kicking ourselves that we don't have two languages.

Scott Benner 10:50
Right. I mean, that's is how things have changed. But there's there's a safety idea more than anything, like they probably saw it as an impediment to your success if people thought of you as an immigrant.

Paul Edick 11:01
Correct. And assimilation. Yeah, right. There was a, it was an absolute drive to become and to assimilate that. It was fascinating.

Scott Benner 11:09
That's excellent. It's really, it's fascinating, because I don't think that we, I just don't think we talk about this a lot anymore. And this is really what our conversation today is about is trying to figure out how you got to where you are now and what your what your focus was. So you're saying, and I don't think this is uncommon at all, but in college, what did you major in first,

Paul Edick 11:30
I would started my freshman year as a pre med student. I had done, you know, National Honor Society, the whole nine yards in high school. So I had great grades. I was also a two sport athlete in college was a little bit different than I my very first semester, I got a C in calculus. So I was done as a pre med student. And so I, I switched to psychology.

Scott Benner 11:57
Paul's smartest kid and his class up there in New York didn't didn't shake out as well.

Paul Edick 12:03
Well, it was it was interesting. The biggest reason I got a C in calculus was because I was still using a slide rule. And if you even know what that is, if people and most of the kids in class had moved on to calculators, the very first Texas Instruments calculator, my parents couldn't afford it. I was still using a slide rule, and I didn't finish most of the tests on time.

Scott Benner 12:34
Okay. That's Yeah,

Paul Edick 12:36
so it wasn't for lack of knowing information. That was I couldn't get it done. Yeah. the right tools.

Scott Benner 12:42
Right. Yeah. That's so interesting. How many letters home said I need a calculator? Or did did your Paul Yeah.

Paul Edick 12:48
No, that was one that was one conversation that didn't go very well.

Scott Benner 12:55
Paul, did you ask for a calculator? And then your mom told you about being born in America? First generation Italian? No, I got the Don't you have a job and can't you work more hours that interesting. You know, My son is a sophomore in college right now. And he goes to a similar type of school. Actually, Hamilton is one of the schools he tried to let you know, he reached to. And so he's in a similarly sized school. He likes a smaller school, he wanted liberal arts. He didn't quite know what he wanted to do yet. And when I asked him about helping out he says that his job is good grades in baseball. I'm now I mean, yeah, I could put him on the phone with your mother.

Paul Edick 13:34
was interesting, you know, to make not to belabor the point, but I had offers for four year full scholarships to three or four different big time universities for sports. I chose to go to Hamilton College, which is division three, and they couldn't, it was non scholarship. So I actually had to pay to go to college. Yeah. And that was a decision I made that don't from my parent's perspective. Okay, well, you got to pay for it. Right? Because they sure as heck couldn't. Yeah,

Scott Benner 14:05
no kidding. I do think that my son Cole did the same thing. He that he had opportunities to go play baseball places that were, in all honesty, just schools where you would have played baseball, you come out with some sort of a degree, but I don't know how great it would have been. And he said, I'm too good of a student for that. I have to go somewhere and get a get like a real solid education. That's like Okay, great. Yeah, get over there. But the same thing, you know, there's not quite as much in the way of offering of money when you when you make that decision. Exactly. Okay, Paul, so you're in college, you're you're kind of jumping around finding your major and everything and finding your level really like looking for where you fit and where you're good. And did you find Did you fall into business at that point, or did you finish with a more of a mathematics track? How did you handle it?

Paul Edick 14:49
No, I actually, I moved to psychology. I was fascinated by learning and memory. I actually did you know, my sophomores sophomore in junior years. did research and learning and memory, so not behavioral psychology but more the learning aspect of psychology. I loved it. And my research was actually published. And I graduated with a liberal arts degree. You know, I took a bunch of other courses, took a lot of religion courses, political science, you know, you had to take statistics if you're a psychology major, so liberal arts degree, and then I started interviewing for jobs on campus. Interestingly, because of the research I was doing, I was getting extra credit. I finished in three and a half years, I was one of the few people that was available to be hired in the spring. Because I wasn't going to school anymore. And I got a job with Procter and Gamble as a sales rep in their case food division.

Scott Benner 15:44
So that's something you just use thin the herd by being available sooner.

Paul Edick 15:49
Yeah. And because I was doing independent study during the summers, got extra credit. And I was done.

Scott Benner 15:56
Okay, that's interesting. So should you head off to Procter and Gamble as a young man? What was your expectation that day where they hired you? And you were probably out of your mind excited? Did you even know why you were going there? what you were doing or were you just like, this is a job.

Paul Edick 16:11
You hit the nail on the head. It was a job I, you know, I didn't know who Procter and Gamble was. I learned who they were. It was, you know, great training and all that. But I, big company, and I had a sales job. And it was, you know, in upstate New York, Albany, actually, Saratoga Springs, what were you selling? I was calling on grocery store managers. Selling Duncan Hines cake mix, Crisco shortening, Pringles potato chips, the original Pringles potato chips, the red wooden in the can that basically tasted like cardboard. And, you know, in grocery store managers, you know, like I said, everybody, they come in two flavors. They're either 65 and about the pinnacle of their career since they were 21. Or they're 21. And they're going to be at the pinnacle of their career until they're 65. I mean, grocery store managers, that's a life. And they grocery stores work on such small margins. If you're making 3% margin as a grocery store, you're doing pretty well. So they're intense. Its intense. It was great training, you know, I learned how to sell

Scott Benner 17:24
and how to read people talk to them.

Paul Edick 17:27
Well, you you very quickly have to understand their needs versus yours. You learn very quickly, if you if you're not really attuned to their needs, and how their store works and what they are trying to do. They won't even talk to you. Because they, they they are focused. It makes me want to ask you a personal question. Are you married? Y'all? Yes, yeah, for a long time. I'm on my second in both of them for a long time. My first marriage was 17 years and this marriage has been 18 years actually good for you. And I bet you, you stay out of trouble, largely in what

Scott Benner 18:06
I'm reading the signals and I know what to say now because I need you to buy some shortening from me. And

Paul Edick 18:11
yeah, yeah. Well, Crisco shortening. Yeah, it was. It was fascinating. It was interesting. I you know, but that's, that's how I, I accidentally ended up in the pharmaceutical business. I was in a grocery store, one of the first stores that actually had a pharmacy, it was an experimental store in upstate New York. And I was talking to the store manager about putting Pringles a big end to end tower of Pringles with beer next to it. And showing him how much profit he was going to make and how it was going to sell. And I was going to put a big sign up above it and all that. And there was a guy standing in the corner, watching me and it was a little disconcerting. So I didn't know you had a suit on and tie. And afterwards, he comes up to me says, you know, I'm from Johnson and Johnson, I'm from ortho pharmaceutical. We're looking for great salespeople. And he gave me his card and said, I'd like you to talk to my boss. And like, I don't know, three, four weeks later, I was working for j&j in the pharmaceutical business. Okay. You know,

Scott Benner 19:16
it's interesting. That's the that's the sales version of the somebody seeing you in the mall and going here. So pretty. Have you ever considered being a mom?

Paul Edick 19:24
Yeah. I don't, I didn't get that.

Scott Benner 19:29
I've just, it's interesting. And was that odd? In the moment? Even then, were you just like, wow, this is a strange situation.

Paul Edick 19:35
It was but it was. It was. It was an opportunity of a lifetime. It was Johnson and Johnson. Remember, I came from a little bitty town in upstate New York where, you know, in a county where there are more cows and there are people actually working working for Procter and Gamble. And now I'm going to go work for j&j. j&j was the most respected company in the world at that time. Right

Scott Benner 19:58
now you would open a medicine cabinet. I imagine they made almost everything and yeah and beyond.

Paul Edick 20:04
So it was it was the opportunity of a lifetime. It's excellent.

Scott Benner 20:07
I have to tell you that, you know, as you and I were getting ready to speak, it kept running through my head, how do you become a CEO? Because I kept thinking, that's not something a kid from high school says to himself, like, I'm gonna go to college and become a CEO. You know, I'm going to run a company, I'm going to make all of the decisions, everything is going to filter through me like that. I mean, if you were thinking that when you were 12, or 13, you probably had a mental illness, and they wouldn't filtered you out by that. Yeah. A little too great. Thoughts for a small child. And so there's no CEO track in college, there's no. And I thought, I wonder if this man's not going to tell me a story of, you know, finding something, doing it well, moving to something else, seeing something jumping around, it's so interesting. This is the way I look at my my wife sometimes. And I realized that where she is, was never once on purpose. You know, she just took a job because she needed a job. And she did her best and someone noticed, and it bothered. And it just kept going. And I wonder how many people actually have similar stories like that?

Paul Edick 21:04
Well, that's what I said earlier, I, you know, I just keep, as a younger person, I just kept my head down and did my job. And you might I was lucky, I work for people who they, you know, you do your job, they take care of you. So I never had to ask for a raise. I never had to ask for a promotion. I did my job and those opportunities presented themselves because I was in an environment where that's the culture, you take care of the people who are performing. I moved up in that company, and then, you know,

Scott Benner 21:42
you foster that. Now, when you're in charge. Is that is that a culture that you try to keep moving? Because I think some people would hear that as generational, but I don't think it is. I think it's, I think it's cultural. What a company.

Paul Edick 21:52
Yeah, it's very much cultural. And it's something that we foster a great deal. Over the years I've, I've taken from every company I've worked for, and every job I've had and different opportunities. It's funny, you say, I'm going to be a CEO, I'm gonna make the decisions that when you're CEO, he very seldom actually make decisions, if you're a good one, because you should have an organization that decisions are made at the level that they're that's appropriate. If If you end up if I end up in a situation where people are saying, well, we got to see what Paul thinks before we do that. It's like that's, we're about to fail. I find out about a lot of decisions. And because of the culture that we foster, and that I Foster, nine out of 10 decisions are usually pretty good ones. Yeah.

Scott Benner 22:40
Now it's it's funny you made me I'm from Philadelphia originally made me think of the Super Bowl a couple of years ago, where there's that great tape of the the quarterback running over to the head coach of the Eagles in a incredibly intense scoring possible situation. They just goes, you want to run this play. And the coach goes, Yeah, sure, go run that toy. And it was just like, it was just wow, he trusts him. He knows what he's thinking. It's amazing. You know, and, and I so I take your point?

Paul Edick 23:04
Well, trust is

I'm not a believer that trust is earned I, if I hire somebody that means I've, I believe that they're the right person, and I'm going to trust them. You can only lose trust in my world.

So I just think it's a different approach.

Scott Benner 23:27
g Volk is an easy to use pre mixed prefilled pre measured liquid glucagon, all you have to do is open the foil pouch, and inject it. Joke does not require refrigeration. It's available in two doses for kids and adults. And there's a simple two step process to administer it. I have seen a seizure from low blood sugar and take it from me, it is a harrowing moment. What you need in that situation more than anything is something reliable. That's easy to use. It doesn't require a ton of steps, because that is a you guys have heard me talk about on the podcast before but it is a crazy situation when someone is having a seizure and you feel like you're what stands between them and further harm. You want something that just works. And evoke is that thing, open the pouch, inject the glucagon, you did it. To learn more about g vote, go to G vote glucagon.com forward slash juicebox. But you get to that link, you can actually order g vote right now today through pillpack. Or you can take some time to understand what g Volk is. So the next time you go to your doctor, you can tell them I'd like to use this glucagon, it's premix. It's prefilled. I think it's going to be easier for me to use. I've read up on it. It's definitely what I want. You'll have some confidence when you go to the doctor, you'll know what you're talking about. So go to the link, check it out. Make yourself familiar with what Evoque is. Then you can decide if it's right for you. Arden I just made the switch at her last endocrinologist appointment. And I think if you take a look, you might want to do the same g vogue.com forward slash juice box with links in your show notes, or Juicebox podcast.com. To find out more about the world's first pre mixed prefilled, liquid stable glucagon. Let's get back to Paul, to find out about the rest of his crazy whirlwind life. I think it's opposite of what most people do. I think most people come in cynical and say, you know, you go ahead, show me. And if you're saying, look, I tried, you know, I saw you, I believe in what you'd said to me now go ahead and do it. That's, um, I think that's the way you build?

Paul Edick 25:48
Yeah, well, we have, like I said, I have taken from a lot of companies in this company, and to some degree in my previous company, but in this company more than any, we, we have one sheet of paper, it's got four boxes, and it's got a series of behaviors in each box. And what I've said is, if we can, if we can behave this way, we will build a great company we can be proud of. And if we do that, and serve our customer, well, in the process, we'll, we'll have a great company will be very successful. You know, we don't have goals that are about dollars, we have goals that are about the kind of company we're going to build the way in which we're going to serve the customer, and then all that other stuff will happen.

Scott Benner 26:38
Yeah. Now I talked to people a lot about management of diabetes and use of insulin. And everyone always wants to know, like, tell me what to do, like, Where do I how much do I use? When do I use it? How do I get my agency to come down? Like, it's always very point on it, and I tell them constantly, that's not what you want to be doing. You need to find the tools, the right tools, learn how to use them, and then all the things that you want will just happen. And you won't even have to, you know, wring your hands every three months. Like I hope my agency I hope isn't, you know, just it just sort of happens when you're using the right tools. It's so

Paul Edick 27:13
right. It's so fast about behavior. Yeah, the behaviors,

Scott Benner 27:17
the basics of most success in any kind of situation. They're all really very similar. Yeah, it's, that's really cool. So I see you're a J and J. You're young man, you've been plucked out of the grocery store. Probably smelling like pastrami and pretty happy this guy found you. And did you just go right into sales again at j&j?

Paul Edick 27:41
Yeah, I was a sales rep in the territory then, you know, sales trainer than a district manager in Chicago and a regional manager out in San Francisco. I was there for like 12 years, I left j&j. And went to Baxter, actually, was a good move.

Scott Benner 27:58
interesting how this happens, because I see this happen a lot to see you gain a lot of broad experience with a large company. And then suddenly, to a smaller company. You're You're like the hive mind. You've seen every little, little corner of the business and you kind of have experience in a lot of different places.

Paul Edick 28:16
Yeah, well, it was a I went to it was a Bachelor's of Medical Products Company fairly big years ago. It was a combination of Baxter and American Hospital supply once upon a time. But I was actually in a small division. So I didn't have any didn't really have the answers yet, because I went from selling pharmaceuticals detailing direct doctors about drugs to a division of axure that was called caremark at the time. caremark at that point in time was a home infusion therapy company, which means that you, instead of putting a patient in the hospital to get an IV, IV antibiotics, for example, okay, you send a nurse to the home and you do it in the home. But that business, you actually run it, you're running kind of like a hospital without walls. You take the assignment of benefits for a patient, you bill and collect on their behalf, you do the therapy, you do everything.

Scott Benner 29:13
You just don't have a structure that they come to

Paul Edick 29:15
correct. And in the learning, I learned how that health, I learned how the healthcare business actually work by by being in a service business, as opposed to just selling drugs. And then I took a detour from there, I met a gentleman who had an advertising agency in the pharmaceutical healthcare business. And he said, I got a lot of really good advertising people. I've got a lot of marketing people, but I don't know have anybody in my company that understands how pharmaceutical companies and medical products companies work. I actually went to work in that advertising agency for a few years, launching drugs all around the world and you coaching, and consulting with clients on how the healthcare business actually worked. In back then that was in the late 80s, early 90s. It was the advent of managed care, in what companies didn't realize is they weren't managing care, they were managing money. And it was, it was all about the, you know, the movement of money in health care. So if you understand what they're trying to do, you know, as a hospital from a financial perspective, then you understand how your services and or products fit into their world better.

Scott Benner 30:40
When you look today at healthcare, do you and you look at your job? Do you see that, you know, you talked earlier about when you're in sales, you have to understand what the needs are of the of the person buying? So now, I'm assuming you need to understand not only the needs of your customers, and what what they require from you, but you have to understand how to navigate the healthcare world? And do you? Do you find yourself just saying, I'm going to get in this canoe? And I know how to get through this these rapids? Or do you try to reshape the rapids at the same time? Like, how much of that? Do you see is your responsibility to move things? in the right direction for the future? And for versus, or maybe not versus but for the patients?

Paul Edick 31:26
Yeah, that's a great question over the last two decades, what I've come to believe, is that with intense focus on the patient, that's the only way you're going to truly navigate what's going on in healthcare. Because the controlling factors of health care delivery, to a larger and larger degree are all about money and less about care. And, you know, having been in you know, big pharma, and then in small companies, and, you know, started a couple of companies, I, my focus is on, if I'm going to do something, if I'm going to build a company, it's going to be around products that can change healthcare for the better products that can positively impact patients lives, potentially save lives, and reduce their overall cost of care. If I can't do those three things, I don't want to do it. Because it just the world of healthcare right now. It's just too difficult to do anything. Otherwise,

Scott Benner 32:33
I had no idea what you were gonna say, the conversation led itself there. And I realized, as you were speaking a moment ago, the only reason you're on the podcast, is because that's the vibe I got from the people you hired, who reached out to me originally. And, and I get, I get pinged a lot by a lot of people, and they're like, you know, they wouldn't be on the podcast or buy an ad and most of them I turned down. And that's because, to me, the podcast isn't about making money. The podcast is about serving the listeners so they can live, you know, healthier lives with Type One Diabetes. So I only really let people in who I have that experience with. And it's, um, it's just fascinating because you and I really haven't spoken before this, that my vibe of what was going on at your company is is really your goal. And so it's, it's completely obvious, you know, to Oh, absolutely. It's very, very interesting and satisfying for me actually, just a moment like when you were speaking I thought who I was right about this guy, thank god

Paul Edick 33:36
Well, that's good to hear. It's an important part of it. It's critical. I you know, I wouldn't be doing this if I couldn't do that. I, you know, I came out of retirement to do this. And it's about like I said, it's about building a great company that people can be proud of. And in that the word greatness comes from the ability to do everything I just said how

Scott Benner 33:58
did that how does that happen to your retired retired like sitting at home on the patio retired or just in between jobs and not in a hurry to get another one? How, what was the situation?

Paul Edick 34:08
No, two years retired, I was retired, retired, I had been approached about numerous companies and CEO positions and I wasn't terribly interested. Two of my former one of my former investors and another investor that I knew well from the world of healthcare investing, called me, and then they reached out to me through a third party to say please just come talk to us come look at this company. This is little bitty group of people. They've got this cool technology, and it needs a reboot and you know,

Scott Benner 34:43
so as a favor, I I spent some time evaluating what Cirrus was at that time. And so you just sort of came in and consulted a little bit saw the the landscape and we're thinking maybe you'd help them in a certain direction or give him some pointers, but then You ended up staying?

Paul Edick 35:02
Well, no, not not consulting, I just was, I was doing diligence. I was looking at it, you know, to say, Okay, what is the substance of the technology? What can it do? But is it well protected from an intellectual property perspective? Can Can you really build drugs around it. And what I found was, was fascinating, you know, very simple, yet elegant technology in terms of formulating taking old drugs that are not stable in solution, and formulating them into liquid stable products that are way more useful for patients. In many different therapeutic areas. The very first area we're in is the world of diabetes, and, you know, hypoglycemia, but the technology can go in a lot of places. And I saw the opportunity to build a company. There were a lot of people in the Chicagoland area that were, I thought would enjoy coming back together and working together again. So I said in truth be told, I spent about a month as demo three or four months evaluating and then I spent one month building a new plan for the company. And I presented it to the board of directors and said, you know, here's the plan. And here's how much money that's going to take if you're on board with the plan, and you're willing to either put in or allow me to go raise the money necessary. Here's the company we're going to build. And they said, Absolutely. In fact, funny story, I kept saying, well, but we'd need this and we need that we need that. And they kept saying yes, so at a certain point, I couldn't say no.

Unknown Speaker 36:42
Maybe, maybe I can, maybe I could talk them out.

Paul Edick 36:46
If I throw enough stuff in front of them, they slowly fade out. I launched a drug once upon a time called Celebrex. Are you familiar with

Scott Benner 36:54
ever heard of that? Of course.

Paul Edick 36:56
So Celebrex before to bring that drug to market, I think was somewhere on the order of $1.2 billion

Scott Benner 37:05
just to get it out the door

Paul Edick 37:07
before the first capsule was ever sold.

Scott Benner 37:11
So what do you do? You just put it next to beer so that people say

Unknown Speaker 37:18
I wish it was that easy.

Unknown Speaker 37:20
If you Paul's got a brilliant sales plan, if you need glucagon, that's a liquid stable. It'll be at the beer store right next to the Miller.

Scott Benner 37:29
Well, I'm sure you've I'm sure you'll adapt your thoughts. But that's Yeah. Can I ask you What about? Because let me be, like blunt for a second. You guys are making a really boring drug. It's just it's the inside of the diabetes world. It's not something you hear people clamoring about, right? Like it's not. I don't know what I mean. It's not sexy. Like, oh, it's a CGM that tells me which way my budget is moving or great insulin that does. You're talking about something that I think most people think of as that red box, it sits in my drawer, I never use it goes bad. And I throw it away or donate it to my kids school so they can learn how to mix the powder with the liquid like, yeah, and and having heard your life experience. I'm interested in what you saw that in those few months, when you were there looking that made you think this is something that people need, and this will be successful?

Paul Edick 38:22
Yeah, that's a great question. Because most people would look at it and say it's boring. First and foremost. There are five and a half million people in the United States taking insulin every day. The vast majority of them at some point, sometime somehow, sooner or later, are going to have a serious hypoglycemia that requires rescue. I look at that. And I say, Oh my god, the current form factor is almost impossible to use. Only about 20% of those people actually have glucagon when almost all of them should have it. Then you look at it and say over 27,000 people die of severe hyperglycemia every year in this country. totally unnecessary, totally unnecessary. Over 250,000 emergency room hospitalizations for severe hypoglycemia every year. totally unnecessary. And the cost associated with all of that. totally unnecessary. When if you could build a better glucagon, one that is liquid, stable, ready to use, you know, you can keep it in your nightstand, you can keep it you know, in your backpack. It's like if you look at allergies, you know, severe allergies, a fraction of like maybe five to 7000 deaths a year

Scott Benner 39:52
because of epi pens

Paul Edick 39:54
because of the advent of a useful product Right, an epinephrine product that's easy to use, easy to administer, stable at room temperature, etc, you're saving lives. You are reducing costs, you're making it a lot more convenient for people. Why wouldn't you do that? And the thing that's even more interesting, if you look at the diabetes community, the general consensus, the education that's happened, where physicians are saying, well, you should you know, you shouldn't use glucagon to your pass out, which is totally wrong. You should use glucagon before you pass out. You know, people always say, Well, you know, why can't you just use juice boxes and glucose tabs? It's like, yeah, okay, absolutely do all that. When those don't work. When you are at the point of I don't know what's going to happen next. a two step convenient. take the cap off, give yourself a shot to glue gun is a life saving experience. Yep.

Scott Benner 40:55
Paul, I have to tell you from, from my perspective, what you're saying resonates because, you know, I can give you some examples. So my daughter's 15. Now she's had type one diabetes, since she was two, when she was first diagnosed, we got into a situation where we just gave her too much insulin, we didn't know what we were doing yet. She had a full on seizure. She was, you know, incoherent and grunting and, you know, couldn't see and talk and everything. And I and I am, I've told this story a number of times before, it was one of the reasons why it was comfortable having you on because I knew when I told it to you, that people who listened would know that I wasn't just saying this, because you were here, we're laying on the floor, you know, sitting on the floor of my daughter's on the floor, my wife is working on glucose gel trying to get it open, and I'm holding glucagon. And in that moment, I could not for the life of me remember what anyone told me about reconstituting it. I didn't know. And I and I couldn't do it. And we brought her out of the seizure another way because we just couldn't, I couldn't figure it out. And when it was all over, and I had time to reflect on it. What I remembered most is that when someone handed it to me initially, they said, Oh, this is glucagon. It's in case you get incredibly low. It's like a life saving thing. You'll never need it. And as soon as they said that, I guess my brain just went, Oh, we'll never need this. And I just think so much was going on in our life, I did not really have the bandwidth to start learning things I didn't need, you know, and so I just didn't it. It's funny, even when you go to explain it to somebody, you're like, hey, well, you know, you take this. So there's this powder in this vial here. And then there's this liquid in the syringe, you want to take the liquid chute. And as you're doing it, you're like, Oh my God, if this ever happens, this babysitter is not gonna figure this out. And moreover, and probably most importantly, we don't carry it with us. It's not, it's not Yeah, doesn't lend itself to something you keep with you. And and I'm excited for something that does it and and that's, that's what you saw when you went down there that days, you saw you saw the the future of what this could all be.

Paul Edick 43:02
Yeah, and I did quite a bit of research. And I went out, I actually went out and talked to doctors, I went out and talked to patients who were you know, diabetics and said, you know, how do you do this. And I remember my grandmother was a diabetic and I remember my mother giving her shots. And but I, you know, I don't even think I don't even know if there was such an glucagon even existed at that time. But the, I just tried to I went out and listened, and said, Oh, my god, there's a, in my mind at the time, there's a critical need here, there. And, and the, the community doesn't understand that there they could be, there could be something better. For me, it was back to what I said before, an opportunity to change the way medicine is practiced, and opportunity to save lives. And in doing so, the net net is going to be less cost to the system.

Scott Benner 43:57
He said the company's been in existence for how long?

Paul Edick 44:01
Because the company was started by the Chief Scientist as almost, you know, like skunkworks in his back, you know, his, his workshop years ago, like 10 years ago. The company, as it's constituted today, you know, really starting to do serious research and putting products into development, probably about five or six years.

Scott Benner 44:30
The initial scientist, you know what led him or her to work on this.

Paul Edick 44:36
He's our chief scientist today, Steve Petroski. He, he was in a company where he was a formulation chemist, formulation scientist working on different kinds of things. And he you know, one of his areas of interest was products that are not stable in solution or not soluble and he developed Have a an approach chemistry where he can put liquids which are not water based into a formulation, get the water out. And in so doing, you create a much more stable product it can, it can, it's fine at room temperature for like two years. And there's a lot of products that require reconstitution, that, that mixing piece that you're talking about, where you've got a powder, and you've got a liquid and you mix it up, and then you've got the drug that you're going to administer. When that's a water based solution. It usually is not stable when it's in solution. So it degrades very quickly. So, you know, if you could take that kit that you describe and mix it up, and have it in the syringe and carry it around for a couple years. I think you'd find that, you know, a lot more of those five and a half million diabetics would actually have glucagon on hand. I think so too, and and I wouldn't have to be buying them over and over again, as they expired. Right. And, you know, it's interesting, people say, Well, you know, I don't know if I'll use it. And I said, Well, I'll tell you, when people will have severe allergies, my grandson, you know, six epipens. When they when they're expired, they go by six more.

Scott Benner 46:23
Because it's not, it's not the, the constant, you're not going to use it all the time. But it's that one time that you better be prepared for I had somebody the other night, a physician, who said, Well, you know, I've I've only had to use glucagon place in my life. And I was done. I said, so glucagon saved your life twice? Why wouldn't you get one of these better devices? So you have it on your person? It's interesting, fair, interesting, the way they think about it, I completely agree with you. I think it's like, you know, it's like car insurance, almost like you're not planning on hitting somebody. But, you know, the day it happens, you know, for whatever reason, and I talked about it in diabetes that way, as well, as, you know, the idea of, if you could plan for when something was going to go wrong, then it would never go wrong. You know, like if you know,

Paul Edick 47:14
yeah, what you went through as a parent, parents, parents should never have to go through?

Scott Benner 47:21
Well, I have to tell you, it's one of the worst moments of my life like hands down, it really, it's up there in my top 10. I wish these this didn't happen to me, it's experienced that I could have gone my whole existence without having. And I'm even liking the idea that Arden could keep one on her. In the other setup, it doesn't really lend itself like anybody can figure out how to just, you know, push the plunger, but the rest of it is off putting. And then you you also have to keep in mind that that process needs to be simplified, because it's possible that while you a you know, as a bystander, or a friend or a parent is trying to figure this out, there's a person who you know, or love having a seizure, that that could be the situation that that makes thinking a lot harder I can tell you from from experience, you know, you're not you think you're like all comical. I remember afterwards, I said to my wife, like, I think I handled that pretty well. And she's like, oh, you're out of your mind, you don't even know. And I was like, She's like, yeah, you weren't doing well, at all, in case you're wondering, I thought I was you know,

Paul Edick 48:24
it, it is a rare individual. It's a rare individual that is calm in a crisis. I mean, you know, there are very few people that in a crisis, they go to a place that is very calm, very deliberate.

That's not your normal, that's not your average human being. I like

Scott Benner 48:42
the idea of anything that takes away steps or need to think or, you know, possibility of dropping something or that any of all that is better. And I'll tell you why. Not that this isn't incredibly exciting. But as you were speaking, what I really heard was this process that your lead scientists came up with has other applications.

Paul Edick 49:03
Oh, absolutely. We were building better drugs in two or three other therapeutic areas as we speak.

Scott Benner 49:11
It's excellent. That's very cool. Well, I have a ton of questions for you, that are more nuts and bolts, but I think we're out of time, honestly. So either I'm going to get you to come back at some point, or I'm going to have whoever you think is the best person to talk to about the real, you know, the real use strategies behind it. And, and there's part of me that really wants to ask you about closed loop systems, but I'm assuming you're a publicly traded company, you're gonna like shoo away my question. So I'm not asking you about that. Unless you unless you want to talk about it, Paul.

Paul Edick 49:42
We will have the only liquid stable glucagon. So if there's a system that works, we've we've now what you now have not to take too much time but what you now have is the real innovation here is a liquid stable glucagon. You can use it in all kinds of ways. Not just Rescue. So if somebody can perfect a two hormone pump system, it needs glucagon and insulin. Now you finally have the only liquid stable glucagon. So we'll see how the, we'll see how it all evolves. If you're building

Scott Benner 50:17
one of those systems, head over to Chicago, look for the building that says Pringles on it. And that's, that's a little B, can I ask you? And if you can't say I understand, but I'm assuming right now that your FDA clearance for an emergency situation? Are you planning on trying for a therapeutic? Like, you know, instead of injecting the entirety of the dose, if say, I was just in a situation where I had the flu, and my blood sugar was stuck at 50. And it just kind of wouldn't move? And I want to put in a tiny bit of the product, would it? Is there? Are you thinking about that over there?

Paul Edick 50:54
We're testing it in all of those applications. So if you're if you want to exercise, you have to go through an incredible process to not have your glucose go too low. We're in clinical studies on using glucagon our glucagon in small doses before. Exercise. We're studying our glucagon in continuous infusion for people who don't recognize their hypoglycemia symptoms, that you know, that's the classic person who is one minute just fine the next minute in a car accident. You can reboot with continuous infusion of glucagon for about a month, we believe you can reboot the system we're studying in non these are not diabetic, post bariatric surgery, people get severe hyperglycemia after certain kinds of meals. We believe by using a little bit of glucagon after that meal, you can prevent severe hypoglycemia. So we've got a research project going on there. Like I said, with liquid stable glucagon, you can address a multitude of other conditions. And like you said, you know, what is mini dosing? How does that work? Can you? Can you give yourself a little bit of good gun for different things? We're studying it. We have four clinical programs ongoing right now. That's,

Scott Benner 52:21
that's very encouraging. That's excellent. Yeah. You know what the one thing I didn't ask you, it's so funny, who named the company and how do you guys say it

Paul Edick 52:30
different people in the company say different ways. Some people say seris, and some say Cirrus, the original name was by the Chief Scientist using a similar rationale to Xerox, which was dry printing is not really dry can still a liquid, but it's without water. So his, he said, you know, serious is for dry drugs like xeriscaping, etc. So that's where he came. That's where he came up with it.

Scott Benner 53:03
I'm never in favor of letting the really smart people do the creative stuff, but I hear what you're saying.

Paul Edick 53:09
You never let a scientist name the company, but it was already done.

Scott Benner 53:13
You know, it's and what's the name of the G, Volk, g Volk,

Paul Edick 53:18
glucagon evoke, it evokes your

Scott Benner 53:21
your glucagon from your liver. Now see, now we had a marketing person involved. I see. There we go. I would ask you more about it. But it's it's fascinating. I don't think people understand either that the FDA has really strict rules on it. But you can even name drugs and drug names go through a lot of so they can't be confused with something else. And like there's a lot that goes on that I think nobody really hears. Paul, I really genuinely appreciate you doing this. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. In a few months, we're gonna have someone back on to talk a little more about evoke more of the nuts and bolts about how it works, the science of it and the use. But for now, I just thought it was interesting to hear from Paul and find out how the leadership of a company that brought you the world's first liquid stable glue gun thought and how they got to that thinking. And moreover, I think Paul was just an interesting guest. We don't often get to talk. Those people like this right really break down who they are and where they came from. Ge voke is a prescription medicine used to treat very low blood sugar in kids and adults with diabetes ah two years and above. g voke. is the first ever liquid glucagon it is premix prefilled. Pre measured and ready to use, no refrigeration is needed. g voke has been approved in two formats, a prefilled syringe and an auto injector visit Jeeva glucagon.com forward slash juicebox to learn more